RE: VOIP design questions

[Tobie Fysh]

I run a Jabra M5390 so a little Jabra Bluetooth dongle and then I'm handsfree.
We have Plantronics CX600 and CX300 for those who "need" a desk phone.
Most staff with run the Plantronics Blackwire 600 range (USB wired) <-- Very 
cheap!
Regards
Tobie
From: Matthew B Ames [mailto:matthew.a...@qinetiq.com]
Sent: 05 May 2011 09:15
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: VOIP design questions

Do you then run a headset with that, or handset that plugs into the user's 
computer via USB?

From: Tobie Fysh [mailto:tobie.f...@freebridge.org.uk]
Sent: 04 May 2011 17:58
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: VOIP design questions

Lync 2010 into a Dialogic Media Gateway.
Fantastic, no desk phone and a number that follows me around.
Tobie
From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 02 May 2011 14:39
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


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RE: VOIP design questions

[Matthew B Ames]

Do you then run a headset with that, or handset that plugs into the user's 
computer via USB?

From: Tobie Fysh [mailto:tobie.f...@freebridge.org.uk]
Sent: 04 May 2011 17:58
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: VOIP design questions

Lync 2010 into a Dialogic Media Gateway.
Fantastic, no desk phone and a number that follows me around.
Tobie
From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 02 May 2011 14:39
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


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Re: VOIP design questions

[Ben Scott]

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Stringham, Steven  wrote:
> On the cisco switches (3560, etc) there is a command to
> help ... Here is the set of commands on a single switch port.

  Here's our commands for our HP switches, all ports:

no qos-passthrough-mode
vlan 2
name "MAIN_VLAN"
untagged 1-28
exit
vlan 5
name "VOICE_VLAN"
no ip address
qos priority 7
tagged 1-28
voice
exit

  We use VLAN 2 for PCs and VLAN 5 for phones.  The "1-28" are port
numbers.  7 is just the highest priority.  We're not using STP or
DSCP, so no commands for that in our config.

-- Ben

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RE: VOIP design questions

[Stringham, Steven]

Some of the others have recommended using a separate VLAN - that is great 
advice. On the cisco switches (3560, etc) there is a command to help (together 
with the DHCP options - 128-135  to set these on the phone.) Here is the set of 
commands on a single switch port. Notice the switchport voice vlan 52 option? 
This tells the phone what vlan to sit on, and the access vlan 50 sets that of 
the PC. Very nice.


interface FastEthernet0/6
 switchport access vlan 50
 switchport mode access
 switchport voice vlan 52
 priority-queue out
 mls qos trust dscp
 spanning-tree portfast
Another recommendation is to get some stats on your LAN/switches.  If they are 
managed (they are aren't they), get hold of cacti or mrtg and gather some 
statistics on them.  Good for overall management anyways.



From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:03 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: VOIP design questions

Thanks folk - I am more educated already.  For you Mitel folks, what sort of 
VLAN/QoS did you configure on your switches.  Looking at my switches, I see 
there are already a number of VIOP vendors built in for QoS, but not Mitel, so 
I'd need to add it.


>>> "Stringham, Steven"  5/2/2011 1:21 PM >>>

Tom
We have a Mitel 3300mxe phone network with 5340 phones on the desks. We put 
this in about 4 years ago.

I replaced the older switches with 3560 POE switches and have the PCs behind 
the phones. We are able to put microswitches behind these (so you could have a 
PC and a printer, etc.).

We have had some issues with phones acting up, so that we got bad throughput at 
the PC. Replacing the phone takes care of that. Spares are important.

Getting phones with a completely digital display is wonderfull. I am so glad 
not to have to print out templates for phones anymore, because it is all on the 
display. Select your phone carefully.

We have 8 sites across our MPLS network. Some smaller sites (across T1s or even 
DSL VPNs) are being hosted by a 3300mxe on the other side of the wan.  
Communication is great. Max latency is about 40-50, sometimes as high as 100ms 
when in high traffic. Voice is still good.  One of the capabilities of Mitel is 
having a phone across the internet (for example - having a phone at home on 
your main switch). This works very, very well.

I absolutely agree - get good POE switches, and put decent UPS units supporting 
those switches.  Also be very careful on your switch/phone selection. Different 
POE devices support different power draws. There are several standard levels of 
power draw. Some POE switches will support a maximum power draw. For example, 
the 5340s take about 6.1 watts. The ports on my 3560 support 15.4 watts. 
However, my 48 port switches will only support 24 ports at the full 15.4 watts. 
But, it can take the full 48 ports at 6.1 watts.  If I put GigE phones in, they 
would take the 15.4 watts level - so I could not put a full compliment of 
phones on my 48 ports switches.

Good Luck



From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including attachments, is for the 
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RE: VOIP design questions

[Tobie Fysh]

Lync 2010 into a Dialogic Media Gateway.
Fantastic, no desk phone and a number that follows me around.
Tobie
From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 02 May 2011 14:39
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


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Re: VOIP design questions

[Jonathan]

Tom,

You've already gotten some great advice. I have Mitel experience as a
customer in an IT role supporting hundreds of end users. I grew up in the
voice and cabling business, migrated myself career-wise into the data world,
and then upgraded my position into the converged voice and data world. If
you've got a validated CAT5e or better cabling infrastructure for your data
network already, my advice is to leverage that and abandon your existing
voice cabling infrastructure unless it is already certified with a
Fluke/Ideal/Agilent, etc CAT 5e cable certifier (not one of those garbage
cabling mapper tools that simply tell you that you've got the pinouts right
per TIA568B). I'm talking about a $3,000 (or more) certifier that will tell
you cable length, attenuation, etc.

If you don't have a truly validated data cabling infrastructure already,
well, ummm...good luck?

In my last position (which I just left in early March of this year) I
implemented my first Mitel SX-2000 in January of 2002. We later (in 2005)
converted it to and IP/TDM system via a controller upgrade to the 3300
platform, with the SX-2000 TDM cabinet acting as a peripheral node so that
we would not have to replace all of the handsets. Mitel is proud of the fact
that in order to get to "the next level" that you'll be able to re-purpose
60% or more of your existing hardware without having to forklift - at least
that used to be one of their claims to fame, and it held true for us.

Since that conversion in 2005, I've since implemented 2 additional
conversions from SX-2000 based controllers to 3300 series controllers, as
well as 3 additional native 3300 controllers with 5200 and 5300 series IP
phones. All of my closet switch infrastructure was Cisco Catalyst 3560 and
3750 series switches, and I NEVER had one problem with voice quality. All in
all, I probably had between 350 and 500 handsets on the Mitel platform,
about 50% of which were natively VoIP. Where I had VoIP phones, I only had
one data drop, and had Laptops, Desktops, and Printers running from the back
of the phone (Though I never tried connecting a switch to one. In my
opinion, that in and of itself is asking for trouble). Rarely did I have a
hiccup that required a phone reboot; not often enough that it was considered
an issue. Being in healthcare, there was not a high tolerance for hiccups
with phones, so if we had seen significant issues with VoIP, we would not
have continued down that path. As for VoIP over MPLS T-1 lines, I'm doing
that now with hundreds of handsets in more than a dozen facilities across
the continental US, and not seeing a problem. It is Cisco instead of Mitel,
but a data/voice packet is a data/voice packetqos has to be right for it
to work.

I had two vlans setup, one for voice and one for data. Setup properly, you
can have your PCs plugged into the back of the phone and they will still get
an IP for your data vlan and your phone will have a voice vlan IP. qos works
great if configured properly. I see absolutely no need to physically
segregate voice and data in most scenarios. They coexist just fine 99.5% of
the time. Unless you have some supremely unique needs, I don't know that I
would be able to justify the switching and cabling infrastructure
requirements of keeping your voice and data segregated.

Something to consider is that you need to have a solid DHCP infrastructure,
preferably with a central point of administration, IMHO. Originally, we had
our switches and PIXes at each site doing DHCP. Ultimately we moved to
Windows Server 2003 for the ability to centrally manage and administer our
exclusions and vlan IP addressing. You'll definitely need to know all of the
required DHCP options for Mitel (128 and 130 come to mind - I think there
are a couple more, but I'm drawing a blank right now). Oh wait
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mitel+dhcp+options :-)

Finally, you do NOT have to forklift your switches or buy a bunch of power
bricks for your phones if you don't already have PoE switches. You can buy a
powered multi-port midspan from someone like PowerDsine (now part of
Microsemi). They've been around for years, and came recommended to me by a
major Mitel partner. Though I never had the need, they were my plan B if I
ever needed power where I didn't have a powered switch.
http://www.microsemi.com/literature/PowerDsine%20Midspans.pdf

HTH,

Jonathan, A+, MCSA, MCSE



On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Tom Miller  wrote:

>  Thanks folk - I am more educated already.  For you Mitel folks, what sort
> of VLAN/QoS did you configure on your switches.  Looking at my switches, I
> see there are already a number of VIOP vendors built in for QoS, but not
> Mitel, so I'd need to add it.
>
>
> >>> "Stringham, Steven"  5/2/2011 1:21 PM >>>
>
> Tom
> We have a Mitel 3300mxe phone network with 5340 phones on the desks. We put
> this in about 4 years ago.
>
> I replaced the older switches with 3560 POE switches and have the PCs
> behind the phones. We are able to put micros

RE: VOIP design questions

[Glen Johnson]

+100.
Cisco shop with 200+ phone, pc connected into every one of the phones.
500+ workstations, student labs, printers, ip cameras, you name it and the 
phone system has been the most reliable of all the systems we run.
Separate voice clan with QOS and call quality is super.
Almost all the community colleges in VA have similar setups and they are all 
doing the same "converged network" and we are one of the smaller composes.
Take  your vendors advice, especially if they have a few installations that you 
can verify.
Good luck.


From: Mayo, Bill [mailto:bem...@pittcountync.gov]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:51 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: VOIP design questions

Agreed.  We have been using Cisco-based VOIP for nearly 10 years.  I had some 
concerns about the bandwidth and putting the phones between the computers and 
switches in the beginning, but it has really been a non-issue.  We do use a 
different VLAN for the voice traffic and have all POE switches.  We use all 
Cisco gear (phones, switches, call manager), so I can't speak for other 
vendors, but our stuff has been very solid.

Bill Mayo

From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:klu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:00 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: VOIP design questions

Tom, We do everything the vendor recommends.  Have been for about 8 years.  One 
of the benefits of VoIP is the collapsing of your infrastructure.  If you keep 
everything isolated, you still have full double infrastructure.  As Jim 
suggests, certainly segregate via VLAN.  We use the port on the back of the 
phone.  Keeping a couple of phones as spare in each physical location is a lot 
cheaper than doubling your port count.  We have over 1200 phones deployed, and 
in 8 years I think 10 have failed.  10 spares is a lot cheaper than 1200 more 
network ports and cabling.  We are a Cisco shop, so can't speak to the 
reliability of Mitel.

On our new offices, we have saved quite a bit of money by only doing a single 
cable plant.
On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Kennedy, Jim 
mailto:kennedy...@elyriaschools.org>> wrote:
If you have the unused bandwidth then your current network can  do it. VIOP 
data is not as much as you think. I would however segregate with VLAN's and 
prioritize the voice packets.  I am not a big fan of plugging the computers 
into the phones, I would re-patch if you can budget for that. What about POE 
for the phones?...if you don't go that route then you have to plug power bricks 
in for every phone.

From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org<mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org>]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


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~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE

RE: VOIP design questions

[Level 5 Lists]

Every voip install we have come across has had completely separate networks 
only merging at the edge for either multi-office connectivity (iax2 trunks) , 
firmware updates, and remote access by the pbx vendor.  I have a client running 
an Asterisk box with 75 users on its own network and we still had to do QoS, 
which I argued about lightly .. since 99.5% of all the traffic is voice anyway 
whats the difference I figured? But it did make a difference ...
That being said, I have a client @ 850 users that's running IP Office from 
Avaya, with about 500 phones all RTP/SIP/UDP, travelling the data network, with 
QoS/ToS on their own Vlan. All 3 pbxes at each office are connected via 1gb 
fiber into a datacenter. All the phones connect to the unit in their respective 
office, and we don't have any real issues with it. The voicemail server is 
vm'ed and so is the tftp/update server, in the voice and data vlan so the call 
center app's can connect.
My biggest problem seems to not be in internal SIP/RTP type connections of the 
handsets to the PBX, but most of the issues I keep running into have all been 
carrier related if they are using SIP/IAX based providers. I do have a couple 
of small clients on 8x8 which is a hosted turnkey service on cable modems 
without issue. I also have my office on a pbx in our datacenter, we have 12 
phones in the office, and an HD video conferencing unit all on Comcasts 50/10 
Internet and we never have a problem FWIW. So all of our phones are connecting 
over the internet and then we have an IAX2 trunk with our carrier running 
Asterisk. I think the reason I don't have an issue really is because our pbx 
(vm btw) is sitting on a 20mb internet connection on the same data network as 
our provider.
As far as your vendor, do you have managed switches? Did they come in and pull 
snmp data from them after a week? Without this information I wouldn't think 
about moving forward. If you have saturation on the network at all then you 
will need a separate network at best, and vlan/qos at least.
From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


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Re: VOIP design questions

[Jon Harris]

I will add that not all switches that handle QOS will handle a lot of
traffic AND QOS well!  I had some older Cisco 2950's that as long as the
traffic loads were not high would work well but when you had all your
servers AND 3 to 4 heavy phone users on the same switch bury themselves in
the sand.  The Cisco 3560's worked much better.

Jon

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:42 AM, John Hornbuckle <
john.hornbuc...@taylor.k12.fl.us> wrote:

>  I don’t have an answer for you, but will be watching for replies. We
> don’t do VoIP here, but have been looking at it. I have the same concerns as
> you—I really would rather have the VoIP network be physically separated from
> my data network as much as possible (e.g., have it on its own separate
> wiring and switches). For one thing, not all of our edge switches support
> QoS. But I also just want to keep data and voice totally separate if I can.
>
> But it could be that VoIP experts think this idea is nuts.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John Hornbuckle
>
> MIS Department
>
> Taylor County School District
>
> www.taylor.k12.fl.us
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2011 9:39 AM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* VOIP design questions
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP
> system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those
> of you that have:
>
>
>
> - our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic
> since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still
> awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our
> current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m
> comfortable with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:
> different network and voice and data never intersect.
>
> - our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and
> plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm
> thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by
> the way you can't get on the network now.
>
> - the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops
> (cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would
> need to be cut and re-terminated to switches.
>
>
>
> So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they
> propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the
> cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours
> costs missing.
>
>
>
> What do you folks do for VOIP?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including attachments, is for
> the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
> message.
>
> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
> ~   ~
>
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RE: VOIP design questions

[Tom Miller]

Thanks folk - I am more educated already.  For you Mitel folks, what sort of 
VLAN/QoS did you configure on your switches.  Looking at my switches, I see 
there are already a number of VIOP vendors built in for QoS, but not Mitel, so 
I'd need to add it.  


>>> "Stringham, Steven"  5/2/2011 1:21 PM >>>

Tom
We have a Mitel 3300mxe phone network with 5340 phones on the desks. We put 
this in about 4 years ago.
 
I replaced the older switches with 3560 POE switches and have the PCs behind 
the phones. We are able to put microswitches behind these (so you could have a 
PC and a printer, etc.). 
 
We have had some issues with phones acting up, so that we got bad throughput at 
the PC. Replacing the phone takes care of that. Spares are important.  
 
Getting phones with a completely digital display is wonderfull. I am so glad 
not to have to print out templates for phones anymore, because it is all on the 
display. Select your phone carefully.
 
We have 8 sites across our MPLS network. Some smaller sites (across T1s or even 
DSL VPNs) are being hosted by a 3300mxe on the other side of the wan.  
Communication is great. Max latency is about 40-50, sometimes as high as 100ms 
when in high traffic. Voice is still good.  One of the capabilities of Mitel is 
having a phone across the internet (for example - having a phone at home on 
your main switch). This works very, very well.
 
I absolutely agree - get good POE switches, and put decent UPS units supporting 
those switches.  Also be very careful on your switch/phone selection. Different 
POE devices support different power draws. There are several standard levels of 
power draw. Some POE switches will support a maximum power draw. For example, 
the 5340s take about 6.1 watts. The ports on my 3560 support 15.4 watts. 
However, my 48 port switches will only support 24 ports at the full 15.4 watts. 
But, it can take the full 48 ports at 6.1 watts.  If I put GigE phones in, they 
would take the 15.4 watts level - so I could not put a full compliment of 
phones on my 48 ports switches.  
 
Good Luck

 
From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org] 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,
 
We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:
 
- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.  
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.  
 
So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.
 
What do you folks do for VOIP?
 
Thanks,
Tom


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Re: VOIP design questions

[Mike Sullivan]

I have a Mitel VOIP system here and we run most of our computers run through
the Phones. The only exception for our CAD stations since we had the network
infrastructure in place and wanted Gig to the CAD stations we plugged them
in direct. It just worked out for us since we had the ports available. If
you need Gig connections to computers you can go with a module upgrade on
the phones so they can pass the bandwidth through. Most of our setup is also
PoE (with a few exceptions). Just to echo what everyone else is saying,
managed switches with VLANs are a must.

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 6:38 AM, Tom Miller  wrote:

>  Folks,
>
> We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP
> system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those
> of you that have:
>
> - our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic
> since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still
> awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our
> current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m
> comfortable with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:
> different network and voice and data never intersect.
> - our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and
> plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm
> thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by
> the way you can't get on the network now.
> - the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops
> (cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would
> need to be cut and re-terminated to switches.
>
> So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they
> propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the
> cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours
> costs missing.
>
> What do you folks do for VOIP?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>  Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including attachments, is
> for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
> message.
>
> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
> ~   ~
>
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-- 
Thank you,
Mike Sullivan

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RE: VOIP design questions

[Stringham, Steven]

Tom
We have a Mitel 3300mxe phone network with 5340 phones on the desks. We put 
this in about 4 years ago.

I replaced the older switches with 3560 POE switches and have the PCs behind 
the phones. We are able to put microswitches behind these (so you could have a 
PC and a printer, etc.).

We have had some issues with phones acting up, so that we got bad throughput at 
the PC. Replacing the phone takes care of that. Spares are important.

Getting phones with a completely digital display is wonderfull. I am so glad 
not to have to print out templates for phones anymore, because it is all on the 
display. Select your phone carefully.

We have 8 sites across our MPLS network. Some smaller sites (across T1s or even 
DSL VPNs) are being hosted by a 3300mxe on the other side of the wan.  
Communication is great. Max latency is about 40-50, sometimes as high as 100ms 
when in high traffic. Voice is still good.  One of the capabilities of Mitel is 
having a phone across the internet (for example - having a phone at home on 
your main switch). This works very, very well.

I absolutely agree - get good POE switches, and put decent UPS units supporting 
those switches.  Also be very careful on your switch/phone selection. Different 
POE devices support different power draws. There are several standard levels of 
power draw. Some POE switches will support a maximum power draw. For example, 
the 5340s take about 6.1 watts. The ports on my 3560 support 15.4 watts. 
However, my 48 port switches will only support 24 ports at the full 15.4 watts. 
But, it can take the full 48 ports at 6.1 watts.  If I put GigE phones in, they 
would take the 15.4 watts level - so I could not put a full compliment of 
phones on my 48 ports switches.

Good Luck



From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


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distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original 
message.

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~   ~

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Re: VOIP design questions

[Bill Humphries]

We have several clients that are setup similarly.  We learned that the 
infrastructure handles all the traffic fine in our environments as along 
as you are using a low bandwidth codec.


Bob Hartung wrote:
We have a VOIP phone system (Altigen), approximate 120 users in 2 
locations.


Like your proposal, we have VOIP desk phones that sit between the 
network and the PC. Our system supports about 20 analog phones as 
well. I've not experienced any problems with this other than people 
unplugging the power from their phones for one reason or another. 
We've also had a few instances where a problem on the phone creates an 
issue with the data connection. Replacing the phone has fixed the issue.


We have all HP Procurve 2600 and 2800 series switches. We have very 
good voice quality. I think what your vendor is telling you about 
voice traffic is true. At any given time, I don't think we ever have 
more than 10 - 12 concurrent phone sessions running; generally it's 
less so the level of network traffic generated by VOIP is fairly small 
compared to data. We're using the highest quality codec which produces 
the highest level of network traffic.


If your network is really busy and has a ton of data traffic, you're 
likely to get echoing and choppiness if you don't have VOIP packet 
prioritization set properly on your switches. As far as typical 100 MB 
or better networks, I don't think it's ever really an issue for 
internal calls. VOIP over the internet is a whole different issue.


Good luck with your project.

--

Bob Hartung
Wisco Industries, Inc.
736 Janesville St.
Oregon, WI 53575
Tel: (608) 835-3106 x215
Fax: (608) 835-7399
e-mail: bhartung(at)wiscoind.com


*From:* Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
*To:* NT System Admin Issues
[mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com]
*Sent:* Mon, 02 May 2011 08:38:41 -0500
*Subject:* VOIP design questions

Folks,
 
We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a

Mitel VOIP system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have
some questions for those of you that have:
 
- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle

VOIP traffic since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know
exact amount yet, still awaiting vendor response).  As such, they
tell it is possible to use our current network to accommodate
voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable with this.  I was
thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network and
voice and data never intersect. 
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the

phones, and plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort
of switch.  I'm thinking this would add another level of
complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't get on the
network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current
voice drops (cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most
cases). Those cables would need to be cut and re-terminated to
switches. 
 
So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar

figure they propose does not include network changes, new
switches, etc.  Looking at the cost proposal, I am thinking there
are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs missing.
 
What do you folks do for VOIP?
 
Thanks,

Tom

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including
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may contain confidential and privileged information. Any
unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact
the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
message.

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Re: VOIP design questions

[Ben Scott]

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Tom Miller  wrote:
> - our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic
> since it's a small amount of traffic

  Telco TDM voice is 64 kilobit/sec per channel.  VoIP is that or less
(VoIP uses compression), often 50 Kbit/sec or less.

  What's critical is not so bandwidth but latency (packet delay) and
jitter (packet delay variation).  You want your voice traffic given
higher priority than your data traffic.  Otherwise a momentary data
burst (e.g., large file transfer) can disrupt voice calls.

  Managed switches that implement QoS are thus a must.

  Preferably, one implements  a separate VLAN for phones.  You give
that VLAN a higher priority.  This also isolates traffic, which can
help security and keeps problems on the data side from screwing up
your voice side (or vice versa).  We even use our phone system (Nortel
BCM) as the DHCP server on the VoIP VLAN, so even if our regular
servers were to all suddenly die, the phones would keep working.  Or
if the BCM does down, the PCs still get DHCP from the Windows server.

  The phones figure out which VLAN to use via LLDP MED (Link-Layer
Discovery Protocol - Media Endpoint Discovery).   The switch sends
LLDP Ethernet frames and the phone reads them.  On our HP ProCurve
switches, this is done just by designating the VLAN as "voice" in the
switch config.  The phones then use tagged frames for their traffic.
The daisy-chain port to the PC passes untagged frames, and the PC is
none the wiser

  Once the phones are on the right VLAN, the DHCP server on the BCM
gives them all the other DHCP options they need -- base IP config, and
the Nortel-specific DHCP options to tell them to use the BCM as the
call server.

  Be aware that this makes your phone system dependent on your
Ethernet switches and their support infrastructure.  Most people know
this at some level, but there can be subtle ramifications.  For
example, if you had a big batteries for your phones but shorter-lived
batteries for your Ethernet switches, you'll need to upgrade your the
UPSes on your Ethernet switches to keep the same phone runtime.  Or if
you had a 4-hour support contract on the phone equipment but have
next-day on the Ethernet switches.

> - our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and
> plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm
> thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by
> the way you can't get on the network now.

  Many (most?) VoIP phones include a built-in 3-port Ethernet switch.
One is for the uplink to the infrastructure, one is to connect a PC,
and one is internal to connect the phone.

  It's your call how you want to do this.  You're right in that it
makes the phone a point-of-failure for the PC.  On the other hand, you
may cut your main switch port count in half, and you may save
significant wiring costs.  YMMV.

  I know our Nortel phones say they can only handle one MAC on the PC
side.  So you can't, for example, plug another switch into the PC
side, and then hang both a printer and a PC off the phone.

> - the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops
> (cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would
> need to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

  By "phone patch panels" I assume you mean 66, 110, or similar
punch-down blocks[1]?  If so, your vendor is on the right track.  Such
blocks are not suitable for Ethernet as-is.  They're often not built
to CAT5 spec, and even when they are, they're rarely terminated that
way.  So you'd have to re-terminate all the cables.  See above about
wiring costs.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_down_block#Gallery

-- Ben

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Re: VOIP design questions

[Tom Miller]

About 400 phones here at campus, another several hundred spread over WAN sites.

>>> "Andrew S. Baker"  5/2/2011 11:00 AM >>>
What is the size of your network?


I've had VoIP networks at different employers and with different vendors for 
over 6 years now, and as others have mentioned, what your vendor says is 
broadly accurate.


Welcome to the land of converged networks.


Part of the value of VoIP is that there is far less need for physical 
separation. The voice traffic and data traffic will be on different VLANs, but 
everything else can be combined.







ASB (Professional Bio ( http://about.me/Andrew.S.Baker/bio )) 
Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for the SMB market...





On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Tom Miller  wrote:


Folks,
We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system. Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:
- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response). As such, they tell it is possible to use our current 
network to accommodate voice and data. I'm not sure if I"m comfortable with 
this. I was thinking of a more segregated approach: different network and voice 
and data never intersect. 
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch. I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity: phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches. 
So I have some concerns about our vendor claims. The dollar figure they propose 
does not include network changes, new switches, etc. Looking at the cost 
proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.
What do you folks do for VOIP?
Thanks,
Tom



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Re: VOIP design questions

[Andrew S. Baker]

Here are some resources that might help:

   -
   
http://www.focus.com/research/voip/buyers-guide-small-business-essentials-voip/
   - http://www.focus.com/research/voip/comparison-guide-smb-phone-systems/
   - http://www.focus.com/topic/voip/?f=r



*ASB *(Professional Bio )
 *Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for the SMB market...

 *



On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Tom Miller  wrote:

>  Folks, so far thank you for your replies.  Richard, to answer your
> question about telephony panels:
>
> Here in our HQ buildings cat5 is used like any other data cable and plugged
> into ports on a telephone rack.  I can dismantle those racks, put up another
> APC rack and use it for data racks.  But, at some of our sites, the cables
> are not terminated like a data cable, and those cables are spliced directly
> into the phone racks. Those would have to be cut and terminated.
>
> Switches here at HQ are POE.  Switches at field sites are not, so I'd need
> to upgrade those or plug in the phones.   It may come down to cost.  The
> switches are about 4-6 years old but run well and I've never had a failure
> (3COM 5500 series, now HP 5500 series).
>
> Tom
>
> >>>  5/2/2011 10:05 AM >>>
>
> Tell us about those "phone patch panels"...  Does this mean your current
> voice drops (at the desks) are RJ-45 (not RJ-11)?  Do these "phone patch
> panels" also consist of RJ-45 jacks (rather than to a punch-down block)?
>  Finally, are the "phone patch panels", if they have RJ-45 jacks, close
> enough to reach your network switch?  If this is the case, (RJ-45 to RJ-45,
> and the patch panel can reach the network switch), then your only limitation
> is availability of switch ports.  You will still need to sub-net into
> separate voice and data sub-nets, but the phones and the PCs can have
> separate connections to the switch.  This would get around the throttling of
> Gbps connections to 100 Mbps described above.
>  --
>
> richard
>
>
>

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Re: VOIP design questions

[Andrew S. Baker]

What is the size of your network?

I've had VoIP networks at different employers and with different vendors for
over 6 years now, and as others have mentioned, what your vendor says is
broadly accurate.

Welcome to the land of converged networks.

Part of the value of VoIP is that there is far less need for physical
separation. The voice traffic and data traffic will be on different VLANs,
but everything else can be combined.



*ASB *(Professional Bio )
 *Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for the SMB market...

 *



On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Tom Miller  wrote:

>  Folks,
>
> We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP
> system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those
> of you that have:
>
> - our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic
> since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still
> awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our
> current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m
> comfortable with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:
> different network and voice and data never intersect.
> - our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and
> plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm
> thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by
> the way you can't get on the network now.
> - the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops
> (cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would
> need to be cut and re-terminated to switches.
>
> So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they
> propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the
> cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours
> costs missing.
>
> What do you folks do for VOIP?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>

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Re: VOIP design questions

[Tom Miller]

Folks, so far thank you for your replies.  Richard, to answer your question 
about telephony panels:
 
Here in our HQ buildings cat5 is used like any other data cable and plugged 
into ports on a telephone rack.  I can dismantle those racks, put up another 
APC rack and use it for data racks.  But, at some of our sites, the cables are 
not terminated like a data cable, and those cables are spliced directly into 
the phone racks. Those would have to be cut and terminated.  
 
Switches here at HQ are POE.  Switches at field sites are not, so I'd need to 
upgrade those or plug in the phones.   It may come down to cost.  The switches 
are about 4-6 years old but run well and I've never had a failure (3COM 5500 
series, now HP 5500 series).
 
Tom

>>>  5/2/2011 10:05 AM >>>

Watch for comments below: 




"Tom Miller"  
05/02/2011 08:39 AM 
Please respond to
"NT System Admin Issues" 



To
"NT System Admin Issues"  
 Press this button if the "To" is a fax number. Enter in the fax number like 
123-456-7890. cc
Subject
VOIP design questions






Folks, 
  
We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have: 
  
- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.   

I believe only 10 Mbps is necessary to support VoIP.  Just be sure all voice 
traffic (including all servers, controllers, etc) are on a separate sub-net 
from your data network  QoS may suffer otherwise. 

- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now. 

True!  It has been rare, but it is somewhat traumaic for the user.  The fix so 
far has been to do a cold boot of the phone (unplug the phone from the network 
and power if PoE is not used), count to "10", plug it back in, and watch.  
Those failures have not been "subtle" as the phone usually has a number of LEDs 
glowing on our Polycom phones. 

Here is another issue.  (It is very annoying for our DBA's, but they're not 
interested in paying to fix this.)  The models of Polycom phones we use have a 
10/100 switch.  So, even though it is plugged into a Gbps jack on the network 
switch, the switch in the phone will throttle it back to a 100 Mbps connection. 
 Our DBA's are very annoyed by this (but not yet annoyed to the point of 
wanting to pay 2-3 times as much for a phone with a Gbps switch in it). 

- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.   

Tell us about those "phone patch panels"...  Does this mean your current voice 
drops (at the desks) are RJ-45 (not RJ-11)?  Do these "phone patch panels" also 
consist of RJ-45 jacks (rather than to a punch-down block)?  Finally, are the 
"phone patch panels", if they have RJ-45 jacks, close enough to reach your 
network switch?  If this is the case, (RJ-45 to RJ-45, and the patch panel can 
reach the network switch), then your only limitation is availability of switch 
ports.  You will still need to sub-net into separate voice and data sub-nets, 
but the phones and the PCs can have separate connections to the switch.  This 
would get around the throttling of Gbps connections to 100 Mbps described 
above. 
 -- 
richard


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RE: VOIP design questions

[Mayo, Bill]

Agreed.  We have been using Cisco-based VOIP for nearly 10 years.  I had
some concerns about the bandwidth and putting the phones between the
computers and switches in the beginning, but it has really been a
non-issue.  We do use a different VLAN for the voice traffic and have
all POE switches.  We use all Cisco gear (phones, switches, call
manager), so I can't speak for other vendors, but our stuff has been
very solid.

 

Bill Mayo

 

From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:klu...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:00 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: VOIP design questions

 

Tom, We do everything the vendor recommends.  Have been for about 8
years.  One of the benefits of VoIP is the collapsing of your
infrastructure.  If you keep everything isolated, you still have full
double infrastructure.  As Jim suggests, certainly segregate via VLAN.
We use the port on the back of the phone.  Keeping a couple of phones as
spare in each physical location is a lot cheaper than doubling your port
count.  We have over 1200 phones deployed, and in 8 years I think 10
have failed.  10 spares is a lot cheaper than 1200 more network ports
and cabling.  We are a Cisco shop, so can't speak to the reliability of
Mitel.  

 

On our new offices, we have saved quite a bit of money by only doing a
single cable plant.

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Kennedy, Jim
 wrote:

If you have the unused bandwidth then your current network can  do it.
VIOP data is not as much as you think. I would however segregate with
VLAN's and prioritize the voice packets.  I am not a big fan of plugging
the computers into the phones, I would re-patch if you can budget for
that. What about POE for the phones?...if you don't go that route then
you have to plug power bricks in for every phone.

 

From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org] 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

 

Folks,

 

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel
VOIP system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions
for those of you that have:

 

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP
traffic since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount
yet, still awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible
to use our current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure
if I"m comfortable with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated
approach:  different network and voice and data never intersect.  

- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones,
and plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.
I'm thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke
and by the way you can't get on the network now.

- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice
drops (cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those
cables would need to be cut and re-terminated to switches.  

 

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at
the cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and
man-hours costs missing.

 

What do you folks do for VOIP?

 

Thanks,

Tom

 

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RE: VOIP design questions

[N Parr]

We are running an Intertel/Mitel PBX with a mix of Digital and IP
phones.  We also run ~50 Spectralink/Polycom 820.11x WiFi IP phones.  I
have both desk IP and wireless phones running over VPN's via DSL
connections to a couple of our warehouses with all the other data from
PC's etc and don't have call quality issues.  You really shouldn't be
concerned about BW.  You should be more concerned about if you are going
to do POE to the phones, VLAN's to separate voice and data, if the
phones are 100MB or GB for pass-through to the computers, etc.  I
guarantee you will hate having to put power bricks at every phone.  If
the power goes out and they aren't on a local battery backup then what?
Can't call 911, not to mention the extra cable clutter and users kicking
the brick out of the plug under their desk.  The only reason I'm not
planning on going to all IP phones when our lease is up is because I
can't justify upgrading all our switching to POE, otherwise I'd do it in
a heartbeat.



From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org] 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions


Folks,
 
We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel
VOIP system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions
for those of you that have:
 
- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP
traffic since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount
yet, still awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible
to use our current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure
if I"m comfortable with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated
approach:  different network and voice and data never intersect.  
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones,
and plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.
I'm thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke
and by the way you can't get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice
drops (cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those
cables would need to be cut and re-terminated to switches.  
 
So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at
the cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and
man-hours costs missing.
 
What do you folks do for VOIP?
 
Thanks,
Tom


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RE: VOIP design questions

[John Aldrich]

I can't speak to Mitel VOIP, however at a previous employer we had a Mitel
PBX and it worked pretty flawlessly. At one of the locations of my current
employer, we have an Intertel system. Mitel absorbed/merged with Intertel
awhile back. The only problem I've had with my Intertel system was fixed by
rebooting the voicemail system. It has gone through a change of dial-tone
provider and is still rock-solid. The downside is it's so old, even the
field techs can't get into it. :/



From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:klu...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:00 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: VOIP design questions

Tom, We do everything the vendor recommends.  Have been for about 8 years. 
One of the benefits of VoIP is the collapsing of your infrastructure.  If
you keep everything isolated, you still have full double infrastructure.  As
Jim suggests, certainly segregate via VLAN.  We use the port on the back of
the phone.  Keeping a couple of phones as spare in each physical location is
a lot cheaper than doubling your port count.  We have over 1200 phones
deployed, and in 8 years I think 10 have failed.  10 spares is a lot cheaper
than 1200 more network ports and cabling.  We are a Cisco shop, so can't
speak to the reliability of Mitel.  
 
On our new offices, we have saved quite a bit of money by only doing a
single cable plant.
On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Kennedy, Jim 
wrote:
If you have the unused bandwidth then your current network can  do it. VIOP
data is not as much as you think. I would however segregate with VLAN’s and
prioritize the voice packets.  I am not a big fan of plugging the computers
into the phones, I would re-patch if you can budget for that. What about POE
for the phones?…if you don’t go that route then you have to plug power
bricks in for every phone.
 
From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org] 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions
 
Folks,
 
We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those
of you that have:
 
- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m
comfortable with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach: 
different network and voice and data never intersect.  
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and
plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm
thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by
the way you can't get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would
need to be cut and re-terminated to switches.  
 
So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours
costs missing.
 
What do you folks do for VOIP?
 
Thanks,
Tom
 
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message. 
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Re: VOIP design questions

[Bob Hartung]

We have a VOIP phone system (Altigen), approximate 120 users in 2 locations.

Like your proposal, we have VOIP desk phones that sit between the network and 
the PC. Our system supports about 20 analog phones as well. I've not 
experienced any problems with this other than people unplugging the power from 
their phones for one reason or another. We've also had a few instances where a 
problem on the phone creates an issue with the data connection. Replacing the 
phone has fixed the issue.

We have all HP Procurve 2600 and 2800 series switches. We have very good voice 
quality. I think what your vendor is telling you about voice traffic is true. 
At any given time, I don't think we ever have more than 10 - 12 concurrent 
phone sessions running; generally it's less so the level of network traffic 
generated by VOIP is fairly small compared to data. We're using the highest 
quality codec which produces the highest level of network traffic.

If your network is really busy and has a ton of data traffic, you're likely to 
get echoing and choppiness if you don't have VOIP packet prioritization set 
properly on your switches. As far as typical 100 MB or better networks, I don't 
think it's ever really an issue for internal calls. VOIP over the internet is a 
whole different issue.

Good luck with your project.

--

Bob Hartung
Wisco Industries, Inc.
736 Janesville St.
Oregon, WI 53575
Tel: (608) 835-3106 x215
Fax: (608) 835-7399
e-mail: bhartung(at)wiscoind.com
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From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
To: NT System Admin Issues [mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com]
Sent: Mon, 02 May 2011 08:38:41 -0500
Subject: VOIP design questions


Folks,  
   
We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:  
   
- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.  
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.
   
So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.  
   
What do you folks do for VOIP?  
   
Thanks,  
Tom


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Re: VOIP design questions

[RichardMcClary]

Watch for comments below:




"Tom Miller"  
05/02/2011 08:39 AM
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Subject
VOIP design questions






Folks,
 
We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel 
VOIP system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions 
for those of you that have:
 
- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP 
traffic since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, 
still awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use 
our current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m 
comfortable with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach: 
different network and voice and data never intersect. 

I believe only 10 Mbps is necessary to support VoIP.  Just be sure all 
voice traffic (including all servers, controllers, etc) are on a separate 
sub-net from your data network  QoS may suffer otherwise.

- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and 
plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm 
thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and 
by the way you can't get on the network now.

True!  It has been rare, but it is somewhat traumaic for the user.  The 
fix so far has been to do a cold boot of the phone (unplug the phone from 
the network and power if PoE is not used), count to "10", plug it back in, 
and watch.  Those failures have not been "subtle" as the phone usually has 
a number of LEDs glowing on our Polycom phones.

Here is another issue.  (It is very annoying for our DBA's, but they're 
not interested in paying to fix this.)  The models of Polycom phones we 
use have a 10/100 switch.  So, even though it is plugged into a Gbps jack 
on the network switch, the switch in the phone will throttle it back to a 
100 Mbps connection.  Our DBA's are very annoyed by this (but not yet 
annoyed to the point of wanting to pay 2-3 times as much for a phone with 
a Gbps switch in it).

- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would 
need to be cut and re-terminated to switches. 

Tell us about those "phone patch panels"...  Does this mean your current 
voice drops (at the desks) are RJ-45 (not RJ-11)?  Do these "phone patch 
panels" also consist of RJ-45 jacks (rather than to a punch-down block)? 
Finally, are the "phone patch panels", if they have RJ-45 jacks, close 
enough to reach your network switch?  If this is the case, (RJ-45 to 
RJ-45, and the patch panel can reach the network switch), then your only 
limitation is availability of switch ports.  You will still need to 
sub-net into separate voice and data sub-nets, but the phones and the PCs 
can have separate connections to the switch.  This would get around the 
throttling of Gbps connections to 100 Mbps described above.
 --
richard


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Re: VOIP design questions

[Kevin Lundy]

Tom, We do everything the vendor recommends.  Have been for about 8 years.
One of the benefits of VoIP is the collapsing of your infrastructure.  If
you keep everything isolated, you still have full double infrastructure.  As
Jim suggests, certainly segregate via VLAN.  We use the port on the back of
the phone.  Keeping a couple of phones as spare in each physical location is
a lot cheaper than doubling your port count.  We have over 1200 phones
deployed, and in 8 years I think 10 have failed.  10 spares is a lot cheaper
than 1200 more network ports and cabling.  We are a Cisco shop, so can't
speak to the reliability of Mitel.

On our new offices, we have saved quite a bit of money by only doing a
single cable plant.

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Kennedy, Jim
wrote:

>  If you have the unused bandwidth then your current network can  do it.
> VIOP data is not as much as you think. I would however segregate with VLAN’s
> and prioritize the voice packets.  I am not a big fan of plugging the
> computers into the phones, I would re-patch if you can budget for that. What
> about POE for the phones?…if you don’t go that route then you have to plug
> power bricks in for every phone.
>
>
>
> *From:* Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2011 9:39 AM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* VOIP design questions
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP
> system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those
> of you that have:
>
>
>
> - our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic
> since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still
> awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our
> current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m
> comfortable with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:
> different network and voice and data never intersect.
>
> - our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and
> plug the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm
> thinking this would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by
> the way you can't get on the network now.
>
> - the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops
> (cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would
> need to be cut and re-terminated to switches.
>
>
>
> So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they
> propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the
> cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours
> costs missing.
>
>
>
> What do you folks do for VOIP?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including attachments, is for
> the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
> message.
>
> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
> ~   ~
>
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> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/
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>
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> ~   ~
>
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> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com
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>

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RE: VOIP design questions

[Kennedy, Jim]

If you have the unused bandwidth then your current network can  do it. VIOP 
data is not as much as you think. I would however segregate with VLAN's and 
prioritize the voice packets.  I am not a big fan of plugging the computers 
into the phones, I would re-patch if you can budget for that. What about POE 
for the phones?...if you don't go that route then you have to plug power bricks 
in for every phone.

From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including attachments, is for the 
sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and 
privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or 
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original 
message.

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~   ~

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RE: VOIP design questions

[John Hornbuckle]

I don't have an answer for you, but will be watching for replies. We don't do 
VoIP here, but have been looking at it. I have the same concerns as you-I 
really would rather have the VoIP network be physically separated from my data 
network as much as possible (e.g., have it on its own separate wiring and 
switches). For one thing, not all of our edge switches support QoS. But I also 
just want to keep data and voice totally separate if I can.
But it could be that VoIP experts think this idea is nuts.



John Hornbuckle
MIS Department
Taylor County School District
www.taylor.k12.fl.us



From: Tom Miller [mailto:tmil...@hnncsb.org]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: VOIP design questions

Folks,

We are planning to retire our current phone system and move to a Mitel VOIP 
system.  Not having implemented VOIP before, I have some questions for those of 
you that have:

- our vendor claims our current data network can easily handle VOIP traffic 
since it's a small amount of traffic (don't know exact amount yet, still 
awaiting vendor response).  As such, they tell it is possible to use our 
current network to accommodate voice and data.  I'm not sure if I"m comfortable 
with this.  I was thinking of a more segregated approach:  different network 
and voice and data never intersect.
- our vendor claims we can use the existing data jack for the phones, and plug 
the desktop PCs/laptops into the phone as a sort of switch.  I'm thinking this 
would add another level of complexity:  phone is broke and by the way you can't 
get on the network now.
- the reason the vendor suggests the above is that the current voice drops 
(cat5) terminate to phone patch panels (in most cases). Those cables would need 
to be cut and re-terminated to switches.

So I have some concerns about our vendor claims.  The dollar figure they 
propose does not include network changes, new switches, etc.  Looking at the 
cost proposal, I am thinking there are quite a few hardware and man-hours costs 
missing.

What do you folks do for VOIP?

Thanks,
Tom


Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including attachments, is for the 
sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and 
privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or 
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original 
message.

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~   ~

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