Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Ben Scott]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:39 PM, John Cook  wrote:
> Except for the fact that these recovery disks are vendor specific
> complete with drivers and diag tools so MS providing replacement
> discs would not be in their best interests - you'd need to order them
> from Dell, HP, etc

  Dell's "recovery CD" is a vanilla Windows install disc.  At least,
that's the way it is with XP.  The only thing that's on the CD that
isn't on the Microsoft original are the OEMBIOS files which allow
activation without entering the Product Key.

  HP, on the other hand, will only provide a "restore disc set" which
re-installs all their shovelware that you can't uninstall, has
security problems, causes stability problems, monitors your usage by
default, etc.  So certainly that's the case sometimes.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Crawford, Scott]

How bout if MS requires that any NIC supported by Windows fails to some base 
compatibility level like video cards do with VGA mode. Then, require that all 
drivers for windows appear on Windows Update. Zip, bam, boom, there's no need 
for any vendor specific discs.  Just install from a generic windows disc and 
get all drives from Windows Update.

-Original Message-
From: John Cook [mailto:john.c...@pfsf.org] 
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 12:39 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

Except for the fact that these recovery disks are vendor specific complete with 
drivers and diag tools so MS providing replacement discs would not be in their 
best interests - you'd need to order them from Dell, HP, etc

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 1:29 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael B. Smith  wrote:
> You don't want replacement media to be so cheap or so easy to
> obtain that people don't do a reasonable search before they go
> to the trouble of figuring out how to get replacement media.

  Oooo, that's a good point.

  Of course, one could argue Microsoft's going about it all wrong.
They could turn replacement media into a *profit center*.  Think of
how many times a customer/friend/family-member/random-stranger has
asked you to fix their computer, and when you ask them for the discs
it came with, all you get is a blank stare.  Every one of those could
be Microsoft earning twenty percent!  ;-)

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

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~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Mike Gill]

I wondered why they just didn't make the Win Vista/7 key's for qualifying
downgrades useable for XP media as well. I tried this at first thinking this
won't work. It didn't. :)

-- 
Mike Gill

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] 

> And again, if it's *not* a modern fulfillment system, they're doing
something wrong.  If they're losing money on media kits, somebody
deserves to be fired.



~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[John Cook]

Except for the fact that these recovery disks are vendor specific complete with 
drivers and diag tools so MS providing replacement discs would not be in their 
best interests - you'd need to order them from Dell, HP, etc

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 1:29 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael B. Smith  wrote:
> You don't want replacement media to be so cheap or so easy to
> obtain that people don't do a reasonable search before they go
> to the trouble of figuring out how to get replacement media.

  Oooo, that's a good point.

  Of course, one could argue Microsoft's going about it all wrong.
They could turn replacement media into a *profit center*.  Think of
how many times a customer/friend/family-member/random-stranger has
asked you to fix their computer, and when you ask them for the discs
it came with, all you get is a blank stare.  Every one of those could
be Microsoft earning twenty percent!  ;-)

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: The information transmitted, or contained or 
attached to or with this Notice is intended only for the person or entity to 
which it is addressed and may contain Protected Health Information (PHI), 
confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, transmission, 
dissemination, or other use of, and taking any action in reliance upon this 
information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient without 
the express written consent of the sender are prohibited. This information may 
be protected by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 
(HIPAA), and other Federal and Florida laws. Improper or unauthorized use or 
disclosure of this information could result in civil and/or criminal penalties.
 Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really 
need to.

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Steven Peck]

I doubt in the grand scheme of things this is doing anything more then
providing basic funding for the center to operate.  It's just not enough
money for Microsoft to notice on it's spreadsheets but the distribution
center surely has a budget beyond pressing DVDs.  Building costs, payroll,
inventory, etc.

Steven Peck

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ben Scott  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael B. Smith 
> wrote:
> > You don't want replacement media to be so cheap or so easy to
> > obtain that people don't do a reasonable search before they go
> > to the trouble of figuring out how to get replacement media.
>
>   Oooo, that's a good point.
>
>  Of course, one could argue Microsoft's going about it all wrong.
> They could turn replacement media into a *profit center*.  Think of
> how many times a customer/friend/family-member/random-stranger has
> asked you to fix their computer, and when you ask them for the discs
> it came with, all you get is a blank stare.  Every one of those could
> be Microsoft earning twenty percent!  ;-)
>
> -- Ben
>
> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
> ~   ~
>

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Ben Scott]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael B. Smith  wrote:
> You don't want replacement media to be so cheap or so easy to
> obtain that people don't do a reasonable search before they go
> to the trouble of figuring out how to get replacement media.

  Oooo, that's a good point.

  Of course, one could argue Microsoft's going about it all wrong.
They could turn replacement media into a *profit center*.  Think of
how many times a customer/friend/family-member/random-stranger has
asked you to fix their computer, and when you ask them for the discs
it came with, all you get is a blank stare.  Every one of those could
be Microsoft earning twenty percent!  ;-)

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Michael B. Smith]

Just because I'm feeling wordyI think there is a major point that hasn't 
yet been made.

And that is: nuisance cost.

You don't want replacement media to be so cheap or so easy to obtain that 
people don't do a reasonable search before they go to the trouble of figuring 
out how to get replacement media.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 12:54 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Ken Schaefer  wrote:
> That's just for producing the media. Plus shipping?   Staff costs to man a 
> phone line.

  Yes, plus shipping and order taking.  The business world has fulfillment down 
to a science at this point.

> Multiple people to produce and vet copy that will go on websites.

  This stuff is not advertised or well documented.  There are a FAQ entries, 
that's about it.  It's not like this is a huge marketing campaign.  And that's 
all NRE.

> More staff to brief and train everyone throughout the chain.
> Just so that, across the world, MS can fulfil these ad-hoc purchases.

  If they brief and train staff and have all those formal procedures, it's not 
ad-hoc.  It's just another order.  And if they don't have all those things, 
they don't have the associated expenses, either.

  I don't have figures on how much replacement media Microsoft ships.
But they have their own telephone number and their own shipping address, and 
have nice packing list forms and packaging.  The media is stamped and printed 
like any other mass-produced media.  There aren't separate SKUs for "downgrade 
media" (or there weren't the last time I tried, which admittedly was years 
ago).  I have no reason to believe it's not a modern, high-volume fulfillment 
system.

  And again, if it's *not* a modern fulfillment system, they're doing something 
wrong.  If they're losing money on media kits, somebody deserves to be fired.

  Note well: I'm not saying it's a crime for Microsoft to make a profit off 
media kits.  *The goal of every business is to *MAKE
MONEY*.*  I'm surprised anyone would expect otherwise.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
<http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Ben Scott]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Ken Schaefer  wrote:
> That's just for producing the media. Plus shipping?   Staff costs to man a 
> phone line.

  Yes, plus shipping and order taking.  The business world has
fulfillment down to a science at this point.

> Multiple people to produce and vet copy that will go on websites.

  This stuff is not advertised or well documented.  There are a FAQ
entries, that's about it.  It's not like this is a huge marketing
campaign.  And that's all NRE.

> More staff to brief and train everyone throughout the chain.
> Just so that, across the world, MS can fulfil these ad-hoc purchases.

  If they brief and train staff and have all those formal procedures,
it's not ad-hoc.  It's just another order.  And if they don't have all
those things, they don't have the associated expenses, either.

  I don't have figures on how much replacement media Microsoft ships.
But they have their own telephone number and their own shipping
address, and have nice packing list forms and packaging.  The media is
stamped and printed like any other mass-produced media.  There aren't
separate SKUs for "downgrade media" (or there weren't the last time I
tried, which admittedly was years ago).  I have no reason to believe
it's not a modern, high-volume fulfillment system.

  And again, if it's *not* a modern fulfillment system, they're doing
something wrong.  If they're losing money on media kits, somebody
deserves to be fired.

  Note well: I'm not saying it's a crime for Microsoft to make a
profit off media kits.  *The goal of every business is to *MAKE
MONEY*.*  I'm surprised anyone would expect otherwise.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Ken Schaefer]

That's just for producing the media. Plus shipping? Staff costs to man a phone 
line. Multiple people to produce and vet copy that will go on websites. More 
staff to brief and train everyone throughout the chain. Just so that, across 
the world, MS can fulfil these ad-hoc purchases.

In large organisations, anything that is ad-hoc is very expensive. If there was 
just a website to order a CD and have it shipped to you, then it would cost 
less than $30. 

Cheers
Ken


-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2010 11:57 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Ken Schaefer  wrote:
> $30 seems to not much more than cost-recovery (and it's probably 
> loss-making).

  Eh?  In the distant past, I saw cost figures for mass-produced software 
media, and it was tiny.  Less than a dollar per unit.  And I believe prices on 
that have come down.  While order processing and fulfillment isn't free, if 
it's costing Microsoft $30 to ship a media kit they're doing something very 
wrong.


~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Ben Scott]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Mike Gill  wrote:
> I said that wouldn’t work, and he suggested I use the XP key from
> another machine and just call into the activation center and they
> would just override it. I said “But the same product key would be
> in use on two machines.” He said “yeah.” Wow.

  Microsoft's licensing reps give out wrong information all the time.

  First, get the name and call-back info for the rep you're talking
to.  You'll need it in case the call is accidentally dropped.  Then,
ask for written evidence of official permission to re-use the Product
Key.  They'll put you on hold while they talk to their manager.  That
will take a while.  I suggest working on something else while you
wait.  Eventually they'll come back with a different answer and say
the previous answer was a mistake.  In this case, the "correct" answer
is, you have to order the media kit, which comes with its own Product
Key.

  As you can probably tell, I've been through similar situations with
Microsoft's licensing reps before.  Several times.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Andrew S. Baker]

I'm sure they're not doing it at cost.

And, in many cases, they do it through a fulfillment house.



*ASB *(My XeeSM Profile) 
*Exploiting Technology for Business Advantage...*
* *
Signature powered by WiseStamp 


On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Ben Scott  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Ken Schaefer 
> wrote:
> > $30 seems to not much more than cost-recovery (and it’s probably
> > loss-making).
>
>   Eh?  In the distant past, I saw cost figures for mass-produced
> software media, and it was tiny.  Less than a dollar per unit.  And I
> believe prices on that have come down.  While order processing and
> fulfillment isn't free, if it's costing Microsoft $30 to ship a media
> kit they're doing something very wrong.
>
> -- Ben
>
> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
> ~   ~
>
>

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Ben Scott]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Mike Gill  wrote:
> The problem is, there IS NO KEY. If I build a computer to get the key I must
> buy XP along with Win7/Vista whether it’s the $30 discounted version of full
> price. It must be bought. I typically think of rights as “free”.

  When Microsoft uses the word "free", what they really mean is
they've found some other way to get you to pay for it.  (They're not
different from any other company in this respect.  Ain't nothing
free.)

> Really they could provide an ISO ...

  Cost of hosting servers, bandwidth.

> ... email a key like they already do on other products.

  Cost of order processing to get that key.

  Could Microsoft could roll those costs into the purchase price of
the product?  Sure.  And there is prolly even enough margin on
Windows, and proportionally small enough demand for this, that it
would be a tiny blip on the P/L sheet.  But Microsoft (like most
companies) has the explict goal of not only making money, but making
as much money as possible.  They charge whatever the market can bear.
And thanks to their monopoly status, the market can bear quite a bit.

> I just think it’s a broken system and for silly reasons that
> could be avoided.

  "Fixing" it would decrease their profit, so they have a motive not
to fix it.  They also have a number of motives to get people off XP
and on to $LATEST_RELEASE, which mean more motive not to "fix".  The
only reason Microsoft would "fix" this would be if they got
significant customer pressure.  Given the relatively small percentage
of people in this situation, I don't think that will happen.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Ben Scott]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Ken Schaefer  wrote:
> $30 seems to not much more than cost-recovery (and it’s probably
> loss-making).

  Eh?  In the distant past, I saw cost figures for mass-produced
software media, and it was tiny.  Less than a dollar per unit.  And I
believe prices on that have come down.  While order processing and
fulfillment isn't free, if it's costing Microsoft $30 to ship a media
kit they're doing something very wrong.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Mike Gill]

The problem is, there IS NO KEY. If I build a computer to get the key I must
buy XP along with Win7/Vista whether it's the $30 discounted version of full
price. It must be bought. I typically think of rights as "free". Some
scenarios such as VL and large OEM's that provide the media and keys etc. at
purchase make it a non-issue if you go that route. There is no additional
cost. The MS page only say you need to use legitimately obtained media. You
don't need a unique disc for this. Really they could provide an ISO and
email a key like they already do on other products.

 

I know XP is long in the tooth. I want everyone running Win7 too. But when I
have to go back working in the real world, I still have some customers who
require  XP. The $30 isn't a cost issue. It's a "why" issue. Also, it's
another order that you can't do until you have your Win7 key to give them. I
hope they ship those discs out faster than some of their other offers that
take weeks. I just think it's a broken system and for silly reasons that
could be avoided.

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

From: Carl Houseman [mailto:c.house...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:23 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

What is wrong with "pushing that button" with Microsoft?   Microsoft states
clearly in their downgrade rights that the key/media can be OEM.  I don't
get the fear factor here.

 

Q. Where do customers get the CD to install

the downgrade software?

A. End users must use a legally licensed version

of the specified previous version of the Windows

desktop operating system to install the

downgrade software. The downgrade software

may be from the retail, OEM/System Builder, or

volume licensing channels.

 

Carl

 

From: Jon Harris [mailto:jk.har...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 12:35 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

As a reminder, make sure if the buyer is giving you media and key to use
that it is not an OEM product.  You really don't want to push that button
with Microsoft even if you did get a rep to tell you that you could do
something that is very questionable.  I am with you thinking WTF?

 

Jon

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Carl Houseman  wrote:

The "free DIY" downgrade rules have always stipulated you must bring an
existing product key and media to the party.  Doesn't matter the source of
the key or media - can be OEM, retail, upgrade, or volume.

 

But when you build to sell to someone else, you are not a "DIY builder".
You are a DIFSE builder.  Completely different scenario - and if you need a
unique product key and original media to give to your customer, it's not
free for Microsoft to stamp and distribute such things, so neither should
you expect to be given them for free.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2010 11:56 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I agree with you. I was just surprised I got the advice I did from MS, but
more so that there is no free & legitimate downgrade path for DIY builders.

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

From: Carl Houseman [mailto:c.house...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 7:17 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of my XP product keys on a machine I'm
building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed for
some other customer.

 

However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be OK.
And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless you're
using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines - it will just activate
online automatically.

 

But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product
key to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the
cost. It is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the
decision they're making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain
to do so, not such a terrible thing.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a
Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing
XP. I've bought machines from larger OEM's with downgrade rights whereas the
machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this
machine, I'm the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get
the key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they
said they would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that would

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Raper, Jonathan - Eagle]

Not exactly. You won't be able to buy media kits past October, theoretically. 
However, you can downgrade as long as you have media. M$ would have provide 
with a license key, or you'd have have OEM media kit that has a license key 
built into the install.

>From the Microsoft site:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-xp/end-of-sale.aspx

“Top questions we hear about Windows XP

Can I downgrade my OEM version of Windows 7 Professional to Windows XP 
Professional?

Yes. The OEM versions of Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Ultimate will 
continue to include downgrade rights to the similar versions of Windows Vista 
or Windows XP Professional. Going forward, businesses can continue to purchase 
new PCs and utilize end user downgrade rights to Windows XP or Windows Vista 
until they are ready to use Windows 7.”

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3223

XP will be supported (free security updates and security related hotfixes, but 
paid incident support) until April of 2014, according to the officially 
published Microsoft Lifecycle for Windows XP.

Jonathan L. Raper, MCSE

Thumb-typed from my HTC Incredible (and yes, it really is) Droid. Please excuse 
brevity & any misspellings.

- Reply message -
From: "Alan Davies" 
Date: Thu, Aug 5, 2010 4:35 am
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus
To: "NT System Admin Issues" 

I may be wrong, but isn't the ability to "downgrade" Win7 to XP ending this 
autumn so that it's no longer legal at all under the Win7 license agreement 
(ie. effectively banning XP from new machines)?



a

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP? 
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a 
Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing XP. 
I’ve bought machines from larger OEM’s with downgrade rights whereas the 
machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this 
machine, I’m the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get the 
key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they said they 
would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that wouldn’t work, and he 
suggested I use the XP key from another machine and just call into the 
activation center and they would just override it. I said “But the same product 
key would be in use on two machines.” He said “yeah.” Wow. Nobody does this or 
what?

--
Mike Gill
























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~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Erik Goldoff]

Have to consider the age of XP, the fact that anything below XP SP3 is
end-of-life and not supported, and XP SP3 is in its extended support with
only a couple years left.  XP is now two major revisions behind the
currently available product ( Win 7 ).

 

That said, I am still using XP on hardware I’ve had for more than 2 years (
wasn’t happy with Vista in production ) or at least dual boot.  I have
retired all my NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 ( except for Virtual Machines 
for testing )

 

Erik Goldoff

IT  Consultant

Systems, Networks, & Security 

'  Security is an ongoing process, not a one time event ! '

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 11:56 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I agree with you. I was just surprised I got the advice I did from MS, but
more so that there is no free & legitimate downgrade path for DIY builders.

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

From: Carl Houseman [mailto:c.house...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 7:17 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of my XP product keys on a machine I'm
building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed for
some other customer.

 

However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be OK.
And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless you're
using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines – it will just activate
online automatically.

 

But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product
key to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the
cost. It is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the
decision they're making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain
to do so, not such a terrible thing.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a
Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing
XP. I’ve bought machines from larger OEM’s with downgrade rights whereas the
machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this
machine, I’m the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get
the key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they
said they would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that wouldn’t
work, and he suggested I use the XP key from another machine and just call
into the activation center and they would just override it. I said “But the
same product key would be in use on two machines.” He said “yeah.” Wow.
Nobody does this or what?

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Alan Davies]

I may be wrong, but isn't the ability to "downgrade" Win7 to XP ending
this autumn so that it's no longer legal at all under the Win7 license
agreement (ie. effectively banning XP from new machines)?
 
 
 
a

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of
a Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of
installing XP. I've bought machines from larger OEM's with downgrade
rights whereas the machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was
installed. But for this machine, I'm the builder. I thought I would use
my own media for XP and get the key from MS to activate it. After
talking with three MS people, they said they would send me XP media with
a key for $30. I said that wouldn't work, and he suggested I use the XP
key from another machine and just call into the activation center and
they would just override it. I said "But the same product key would be
in use on two machines." He said "yeah." Wow. Nobody does this or what?

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



WARNING:
The information in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be 
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If you are not the named addressee, you must not use, copy or disclose this 
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~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Carl Houseman]

What is wrong with "pushing that button" with Microsoft?   Microsoft states
clearly in their downgrade rights that the key/media can be OEM.  I don't get
the fear factor here.

 

Q. Where do customers get the CD to install

the downgrade software?

A. End users must use a legally licensed version

of the specified previous version of the Windows

desktop operating system to install the

downgrade software. The downgrade software

may be from the retail, OEM/System Builder, or

volume licensing channels.

 

Carl

 

From: Jon Harris [mailto:jk.har...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 12:35 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

As a reminder, make sure if the buyer is giving you media and key to use that
it is not an OEM product.  You really don't want to push that button with
Microsoft even if you did get a rep to tell you that you could do something
that is very questionable.  I am with you thinking WTF?

 

Jon

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Carl Houseman  wrote:

The "free DIY" downgrade rules have always stipulated you must bring an
existing product key and media to the party.  Doesn't matter the source of
the key or media - can be OEM, retail, upgrade, or volume.

 

But when you build to sell to someone else, you are not a "DIY builder".  You
are a DIFSE builder.  Completely different scenario - and if you need a
unique product key and original media to give to your customer, it's not free
for Microsoft to stamp and distribute such things, so neither should you
expect to be given them for free.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2010 11:56 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I agree with you. I was just surprised I got the advice I did from MS, but
more so that there is no free & legitimate downgrade path for DIY builders.

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

From: Carl Houseman [mailto:c.house...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 7:17 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of my XP product keys on a machine I'm
building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed for
some other customer.

 

However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be OK.
And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless you're
using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines - it will just activate
online automatically.

 

But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product
key to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the
cost. It is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the
decision they're making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain
to do so, not such a terrible thing.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a
Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing
XP. I've bought machines from larger OEM's with downgrade rights whereas the
machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this
machine, I'm the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get
the key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they said
they would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that wouldn't work,
and he suggested I use the XP key from another machine and just call into the
activation center and they would just override it. I said "But the same
product key would be in use on two machines." He said "yeah." Wow. Nobody
does this or what?

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

Re: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Jon Harris]

As a reminder, make sure if the buyer is giving you media and key to use
that it is not an OEM product.  You really don't want to push that button
with Microsoft even if you did get a rep to tell you that you could do
something that is very questionable.  I am with you thinking WTF?

Jon

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Carl Houseman  wrote:

>  The "free DIY" downgrade rules have always stipulated you must bring an
> existing product key and media to the party.  Doesn't matter the source of
> the key or media – can be OEM, retail, upgrade, or volume.
>
>
>
> But when you build to sell to someone else, you are not a "DIY builder".
> You are a DIFSE builder.  Completely different scenario – and if you need a
> unique product key and original media to give to your customer, it's not
> free for Microsoft to stamp and distribute such things, so neither should
> you expect to be given them for free.
>
>
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> *From:* Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, 5 August 2010 11:56 AM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Windows Downgrade Circus
>
>
>
> I agree with you. I was just surprised I got the advice I did from MS, but
> more so that there is no free & legitimate downgrade path for DIY builders.
>
>
>
> --
> Mike Gill
>
>
>
> *From:* Carl Houseman [mailto:c.house...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 04, 2010 7:17 PM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Windows Downgrade Circus
>
>
>
> I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of *my* XP product keys on a machine
> I'm building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed
> for some other customer.
>
>
>
> However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be
> OK.  And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless
> you're using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines – it will just
> activate online automatically.
>
>
>
> But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product
> key to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the
> cost. It is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the
> decision they're making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain
> to do so, not such a terrible thing.
>
>
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> *From:* Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* Windows Downgrade Circus
>
>
>
> Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
> Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a
> Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing
> XP. I’ve bought machines from larger OEM’s with downgrade rights whereas the
> machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this
> machine, I’m the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get
> the key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they
> said they would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that wouldn’t
> work, and he suggested I use the XP key from another machine and just call
> into the activation center and they would just override it. I said “But the
> same product key would be in use on two machines.” He said “yeah.” Wow.
> Nobody does this or what?
>
>
>
> --
> Mike Gill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Carl Houseman]

The "free DIY" downgrade rules have always stipulated you must bring an
existing product key and media to the party.  Doesn't matter the source of
the key or media - can be OEM, retail, upgrade, or volume.

 

But when you build to sell to someone else, you are not a "DIY builder".  You
are a DIFSE builder.  Completely different scenario - and if you need a
unique product key and original media to give to your customer, it's not free
for Microsoft to stamp and distribute such things, so neither should you
expect to be given them for free.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2010 11:56 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I agree with you. I was just surprised I got the advice I did from MS, but
more so that there is no free & legitimate downgrade path for DIY builders.

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

From: Carl Houseman [mailto:c.house...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 7:17 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of my XP product keys on a machine I'm
building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed for
some other customer.

 

However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be OK.
And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless you're
using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines - it will just activate
online automatically.

 

But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product
key to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the
cost. It is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the
decision they're making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain
to do so, not such a terrible thing.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a
Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing
XP. I've bought machines from larger OEM's with downgrade rights whereas the
machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this
machine, I'm the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get
the key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they said
they would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that wouldn't work,
and he suggested I use the XP key from another machine and just call into the
activation center and they would just override it. I said "But the same
product key would be in use on two machines." He said "yeah." Wow. Nobody
does this or what?

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Ken Schaefer]

$30 seems to not much more than cost-recovery (and it's probably loss-making).

Cheers
Ken

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com]
Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2010 11:56 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

I agree with you. I was just surprised I got the advice I did from MS, but more 
so that there is no free & legitimate downgrade path for DIY builders.

--
Mike Gill

From: Carl Houseman [mailto:c.house...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 7:17 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of my XP product keys on a machine I'm 
building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed for 
some other customer.

However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be OK.  
And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless you're 
using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines - it will just activate 
online automatically.

But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product key 
to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the cost. It 
is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the decision they're 
making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain to do so, not such a 
terrible thing.

Carl

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP? 
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a 
Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing XP. 
I've bought machines from larger OEM's with downgrade rights whereas the 
machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this 
machine, I'm the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get the 
key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they said they 
would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that wouldn't work, and he 
suggested I use the XP key from another machine and just call into the 
activation center and they would just override it. I said "But the same product 
key would be in use on two machines." He said "yeah." Wow. Nobody does this or 
what?

--
Mike Gill














~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Mike Gill]

I agree with you. I was just surprised I got the advice I did from MS, but
more so that there is no free & legitimate downgrade path for DIY builders.

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

From: Carl Houseman [mailto:c.house...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 7:17 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of my XP product keys on a machine I'm
building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed for
some other customer.

 

However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be OK.
And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless you're
using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines - it will just activate
online automatically.

 

But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product
key to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the
cost. It is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the
decision they're making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain
to do so, not such a terrible thing.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a
Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing
XP. I've bought machines from larger OEM's with downgrade rights whereas the
machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this
machine, I'm the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get
the key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they
said they would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that wouldn't
work, and he suggested I use the XP key from another machine and just call
into the activation center and they would just override it. I said "But the
same product key would be in use on two machines." He said "yeah." Wow.
Nobody does this or what?

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

 

 

 

 

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

Re: RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Andrew S. Baker]

+1

-ASB: http://XeeSM.com/AndrewBaker

Sent from my Motorola Droid

On Aug 4, 2010 10:17 PM, "Carl Houseman"  wrote:

 I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of *my* XP product keys on a machine I'm
building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed for
some other customer.



However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be OK.
And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless you're
using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines – it will just activate
online automatically.



But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product
key to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the
cost. It is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the
decision they're making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain
to do so, not such a terrible thing.



Carl



*From:* Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
*To:* NT System Admin Issues
*Subject:* Windows Downgrade Circus





Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
Meaning, you bought the...

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

RE: Windows Downgrade Circus

[Carl Houseman]

I sure wouldn't want to re-use one of my XP product keys on a machine I'm
building for a customer.  Or the product key that I previously installed for
some other customer.

 

However, if your customer has an XP product key, re-using that would be OK.
And more than likely, you won't have to call in for approval unless you're
using the same key repeatedly on multiple machines - it will just activate
online automatically.

 

But if you are building a machine for a client who has no existing product
key to re-use, then I'd say buy the media/key for $30 and pass along the
cost. It is time, I think, that customers are forced to think about the
decision they're making to stay with XP and if it causes them a little pain
to do so, not such a terrible thing.

 

Carl

 

From: Mike Gill [mailto:lis...@canbyfoursquare.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:42 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Windows Downgrade Circus

 

Has anyone here downgraded their (qualifying) Vista or 7 license to XP?
Meaning, you bought the parts for a new computer, of which consisted of a
Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate license and media, with the purpose of installing
XP. I've bought machines from larger OEM's with downgrade rights whereas the
machine arrived with the media for both, and XP was installed. But for this
machine, I'm the builder. I thought I would use my own media for XP and get
the key from MS to activate it. After talking with three MS people, they
said they would send me XP media with a key for $30. I said that wouldn't
work, and he suggested I use the XP key from another machine and just call
into the activation center and they would just override it. I said "But the
same product key would be in use on two machines." He said "yeah." Wow.
Nobody does this or what?

 

-- 
Mike Gill

 

 

 

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~