Re: [nycwireless] Legality/morality of use of unsecured APs [WAS:Goal...]
Okay. You know what? There are both interesting and convincing arguments for and against bandwidth "sharing" from open APs that did not give explicit permission to share. We can argue until our fingers are black and blue from typing and until our email accounts are stuffed with these discussions and absolutely nothing will come of it. Why don't we take a more practical approach towards this matter instead of arguing back and forth? What we can do is that we can start cataloging open APs we run into in the NYC area and move them into a 3-tiered list...A "yellow" list will be a listing of all unsecured, open APs we run across that did not list explicit permission for usage. Upon detection we can immediately try and find the owner of the open AP (should not be too hard, I think) and email them a standard "Your AP is open...We are unsure of whether you are aware of the legal implications of having this open and we should inform you of the risks of running it insecure" letter which urges them to either secure it or to open it. We can also make this "yellow" listing available and open to the public but with a stern warning that certain individuals might consider this as trespass of their property and may take potential legal action against anyone who uses it. This can serve as a valuable lookup tool for those who are ethically opposed to using something without asking. You as a user might be able to get away with using their bandwidth, or you can be playing legal Russian Roulette with some high-powered Manhattan IP lawyer who just happens to have an inadvertently open AP and might have some free time to sue your ass off. As the AP operator your options would be to either email us to ask us to move you into the green list (Sharing okay, welcome neighbor!) or the red list (Git off my propertah, vermit!). If you sit on the email for more than 4 weeks or so, you get moved to the red list by default. A "green" list would be used to denote all APs which have given their explicit permission to allow bandwidth sharing and includes all current nycwireless nodes. Bandwidth sharing is allowable as far as the user and the provider is concerned but availability is not guaranteed. Just respect your bandwidth host and don't do anything stupid, like using BitTorrent to grab Matrix: Reloaded off their bandwidth. A "Red" list will be used to denote nodes with owners who were sent this letter and either sent us an explicit response to not share or have chosen not to respond to our initial letter of warning/concern/neighborly advice in a timely manner. Anyone who choose to use these nodes are on their own. If they got sued for using bandwidth without permission or accused of kooky allegations like sniffing packets/passwords off the host, well, we warned them. I think this setup would address the needs of both sides. The side which is ethically bound to ask-before-share would know that all open nodes are reported to their owners and they can be taken off the list in a split second should they need to be. The side which advocates unregulated bandwidth sharing even without explicit permission will know that what they are doing also carries some legal responsibilities and risks. -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
[nycwireless] Qualcomm's view on WiFi vs. CDMA 1X
A pretty good read ... http://reiter.weblogger.com/2003/05/27 -snip- By: Jeffrey K. Belk Senior Vice President, Marketing QUALCOMM Incorporated Below will be the longest mail you have received on Wi-fi that is not an academic or vendor white paper. It's something altogether different. It's a description of my personal experiences using Wi-Fi 'hotspot' services the week of May 12th in Europe. -snip- - Jon -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE:[nycwireless] One last DEAD HORSE
> Yankee Stadium light = WiFi. Yes, it is free to use for all > it covers. > > Internet access = electrical supply. No, it is not free. > Internet access > is mine and I paid for it. > > Using something that's mine without asking is wrong. It's > one of the things > we hope people learn in kindergarten. Let's say... your AP is using DHCP. I turn on my laptop (which has one of those new centrino chipsets), which asks your AP for an IP address. Your AP gives me an IP address and I now have access to the Internet. Theft or not? (my PC asked and your AP gave permission...) Whose fault (yours, mine, AP or OS manufacturer)? Does it depend more on what you *intend*? How do I know what you intend? (i.e. how do I know that you I have done no manual configuration, "hell I don't even know how this stuff works", but all of a sudden the "magical free internet" just works again! > Everyone else: > > If you have an open access point put in you SSID something > like "FreeAP1" or > "Feelfreetouse" or "Max's FreeAP". Let people know that it's > ok to use the > AP and Internet. If it doesn't have "nycwireless" or "Free" > or something of > the kind, just stay off it. It's someone else's AP that > might not be as > technologically knowledgeable as you. Don't take for granted > it's yours for > the taking. > > My 0.02 A fascinating topic. I think there's a responsibility on both sides. I also think that the subject should probably move to another list (as much as I'm enjoying it, insults aside) and that the right approach for NYC Wireless is to focus on APs that are explicitly open to the public, although ethically I have little problem in (theoretically) using an AP that is wide open (i.e. one that Windows XP connects to automagically without any input from me to give the most conservative example) but not explicitly shared. My two eurocents, I'll try not to say anything more on the subject. -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
[nycwireless] WiFi box on CNBC today ...
They highlighted this box today on Power Lunch: http://www.troposnetworks.com/products/5110outdoor.shtml -snip- The Tropos Wi-Fi cells communicate with each other wirelessly through the Tropos Control Protocol, the industry's first cellular Wi-Fi mesh routing algorithm. The Tropos Control Protocol is one part of Tropos Sphere, an intelligent wireless network operating system to extend coverage and optimize performance. -snip- A WiFi company backed by Benchmark Cap ... - Jon -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Legality/morality of use of unsecured APs[WAS:Goal...]
Kevin et al, How about not publishing a list of all open nodes. 1. Keep current NYCwireless list as is, i.e. node owners who participate by publishing their status, these are nodes you can freely use without worry. 2. When you "stumble" upon an open node, choose on your own whether you wish to use that resource. You may or may not have ethical reasons to consider. 3. My personal feeling is that you should NOT seek the owner of the node directly and inform him/her that their node is open and readily available. Chances are that they may be grateful and willing to share it anyway, and thus we have a new consenting node, or that they will be willing to learn how to secure their network, but chances are they may be vindictive and it is not worth the hassle, even if you are vindicated by common sense, and probably within the legal system. 4. Why not try an indirect approach and hand out flyers detailing the benefits of free community networks and how they can contribute willingly, adding that they may as well being that their wireless network is going to be used by someone in Step 2. This could tip off owners of wi-fi equipment that their current setup is vulnerable, and give them the choice of action. 5. If you need any materials with which to approach businesses or private people in order to inform them of their options and perhaps score another free node, contact me directly [ jacob "at" nycwireless "dot" net ] and I will gladly assist you. Remember we are a community group, and good neighborly behavior will go much further than a list exposing all nodes and "forcing" the public to take action to get themselves removed. Jacob Farkas NYCwireless Community Outreach Effort [C.O.R.E.] - Original Message - From: "Kev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Legality/morality of use of unsecured APs [WAS:Goal...] > Okay. You know what? There are both interesting and convincing arguments > for and against bandwidth "sharing" from open APs that did not give > explicit permission to share. We can argue until our fingers are black > and blue from typing and until our email accounts are stuffed with these > discussions and absolutely nothing will come of it. > > Why don't we take a more practical approach towards this matter instead of > arguing back and forth? > > What we can do is that we can start cataloging open APs we run into in the > NYC area and move them into a 3-tiered list...A "yellow" list will be a > listing of all unsecured, open APs we run across that did not list > explicit permission for usage. > > Upon detection we can immediately try and find the owner of the open AP > (should not be too hard, I think) and email them a standard "Your AP is > open...We are unsure of whether you are aware of the legal implications of > having this open and we should inform you of the risks of running it > insecure" letter which urges them to either secure it or to open it. We > can also make this "yellow" listing available and open to the public but > with a stern warning that certain individuals might consider this as > trespass of their property and may take potential legal action against > anyone who uses it. This can serve as a valuable lookup tool for those > who are ethically opposed to using something without asking. You as a > user might be able to get away with using their bandwidth, or you can be > playing legal Russian Roulette with some high-powered Manhattan IP lawyer > who just happens to have an inadvertently open AP and might have some free > time to sue your ass off. > As the AP operator your options would be to either email us to ask us to > move you into the green list (Sharing okay, welcome neighbor!) or the red > list (Git off my propertah, vermit!). If you sit on the email for more > than 4 weeks or so, you get moved to the red list by default. > > A "green" list would be used to denote all APs which have given their > explicit permission to allow bandwidth sharing and includes all current > nycwireless nodes. Bandwidth sharing is allowable as far as the user and > the provider is concerned but availability is not guaranteed. Just > respect your bandwidth host and don't do anything stupid, like using > BitTorrent to grab Matrix: Reloaded off their bandwidth. > > A "Red" list will be used to denote nodes with owners who were sent > this letter and either sent us an explicit response to not share > or have chosen not to respond to our initial letter of > warning/concern/neighborly advice in a timely manner. Anyone who choose > to use these nodes are on their own. If they got > sued for using bandwidth without permission or accused of kooky > allegations like sniffing packets/passwords off the host, well, we warned > them. > > I think this setup would address the needs of both sides. The side which > is ethically bound to ask-before-share would know that all open nodes are > reported to their owners a
Re: [nycwireless] Legality/morality of use of unsecured APs [WAS:Goal...]
Michael Yellin wrote: >According to the Cabin analogy, if it is left open, can I use anything I > want. Can I use the TV and your electricity (assuming the place has > electricity) What about eating the food and using the supplies. I think I might have introduced this "cabin analogy" in another discussion, and I'm sorry I don't have any hard references for it. It seems that in the old Scandinavian (and possibly Anglo-Saxon) tradition, the dishonor was not in committing the crime, but in hiding from your guilt. If you openly admitted to the crime and paid your fines, all was ok. (The word "steal" is related to "stealth", to do something in hiding.) The Old Norse and Icelandic sagas are full of anecdotes like this, e.g. http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Njal/ If I was the hiker, lost and frozen, I guess I would eat the food in the cabin, and leave a note with my phone number and some cash. That seems like the most practical solution to me. That doesn't mean I have the right to walk into any cabin at any time and eat what I want, or that the people who forget to lock their cabins are morons. All it means is that there is a balance between respect and need. -- Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
[nycwireless] First WiFi-embedded car to be produced
3Com and Italian car maker Fiat Auto announced that they would embed enterprise-class wireless networking technology from 3Com in one of Fiat's models, making it possible for passengers to connect to the Internet in service stations, car parks, or urban locations covered by a WLAN. The Wi-Fi system installed in the Lancia Phedra offers broadband Internet access through the vehicle's multimedia system. The 3Com Wi-Fi connectivity solution is enhanced by AWAutoPC with a wireless keyboard, developed by AWA, a partner of 3Com. Passengers (one hopes not the drivers) would be able to shop on the Internet, check the stock market, read their email, or take part in a videoconference. ... not sure if it's the first ... but cool non the less i guess ... - jon -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Qualcomm's view on WiFi vs. CDMA 1X
Yeah I have to agree ... GPRS is not much better but I think his overall viewpoint was just based on what he might deem as being "mission critical like" scenerios which I can't see happening unless you are going pay out of your a$$ for anyway ... then again he is talking in defense for CDMA2000/3G's survival :-) - Jon - Original Message - From: "Daniel Thor Kristjansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jon Baer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Qualcomm's view on WiFi vs. CDMA 1X > > I have to wonder about his internet usage. I signed up for one of those > Sprint PCS free trials last year, I couldn't even find a use for it when > it was free. They really had a signal in most places, probably about as > good as Sprint PCS voice. But it was head poundingly slow. When you were > lucky you got 19.6kbps, and the latency was absolutely insane, you could -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Qualcomm's view on WiFi vs. CDMA 1X
I have to wonder about his internet usage. I signed up for one of those Sprint PCS free trials last year, I couldn't even find a use for it when it was free. They really had a signal in most places, probably about as good as Sprint PCS voice. But it was head poundingly slow. When you were lucky you got 19.6kbps, and the latency was absolutely insane, you could type a word in a SSH session and go out and buy a coffee and when you came back it still hadn't echoed back. Again when you were lucky it was like a bad transatlantic connection, you type a line, stop, wait, look for missing words or characters. If missing, delete line and repeat, no point in trying to edit with that type of latency. I got the impression that connecting a 2400 bps modem to a cell phone with a headphone jack would have been much more usable. Data seemed to be a lower priority packet for the network than voice. Which is attrocious anyway with PCS. I had to laugh when a PCS salesman called me once and his connection kept going out, or I heard 3 or 4 other conversations, he should have gotten a phone from Nextel or something. This is in NYC, I've had friends tell me PCS is better in other cities. And perhaps things are better now. But from my experience I'd have to imagine that at $80 a month a satelite phone is more reliable. Also I'm a bit puzzled with his view that cafe's are not where you are going to access the internet. On a business trip it's probably easiest to just use the 100Base-T in the Hotel, but if your using the internet in your daily life then a cafe seems like an ideal place for access, you are sitting down and relaxed. -- Daniel On Wed, 28 May 2003, Jon Baer wrote: ]A pretty good read ... ] ]http://reiter.weblogger.com/2003/05/27 ] ]-snip- ]By: Jeffrey K. Belk ]Senior Vice President, Marketing ]QUALCOMM Incorporated ] ]Below will be the longest mail you have received on Wi-fi that is not an ]academic or vendor white paper. It's something altogether different. It's a ]description of my personal experiences using Wi-Fi 'hotspot' services the ]week of May 12th in Europe. ] ]-snip- ] ]- Jon ] ]-- ]NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ ]Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ ]Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ ] -- -- Daniel << When truth is outlawed; only outlaws will tell the truth. >> - RLiegh -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
[nycwireless] return of IRC channel for monthly meeting.
Back by popular demand the meeting IRC channel for chating/IM during the meeting. Server: irc.nyc2600.org Channel: #nycwireless - Dustin - Ben N. Serebin wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > Just a reminder we are having our monthly meeting this upcoming > Wednesday, 5/28, @ 7:15pm. Open to All > > As always, there will be "b" wireless (802.11b). > > If you are interested in presenting at a future meeting or have ideas for one, let me know... thanks and look forward to seeing you there. -Ben > > > *** Date / Time *** > Wednesday, May 28 @ 7:15pm > > *** Meeting Location: *** > Bway.net, 459 Broadway, 2nd Floor > Almost 2 blocks north of Canal, near the corner of Grand St. On the west side of the street, then up one flight of stairs. Closest trains are N/R, but several subway stops are nearby, within a few blocks -- A/E, 1,2, 6 (Canal St for all). A handicap accessible entrance is available if you notify me of your needs ahead of time. > [Prepare for Ad : Thanks to Bway for providing meeting space. See them for your ISP needs. http://www.bway.net ] > > - > Mini-FAQ about NYCwireless Meetings > > Q - Who can attend the meeting? > A - Anyone. It's open to the general public. > > Q - When are the meetings? > A - Normally, they are the last Wednesday of every month. > - > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
[nycwireless] [Fwd: [NEXTEL-1] Recently Approved IEEE 802.15.4 Standard forZigBee Applications Will be Showcased at]
The noise floor just increased by 5 dbm - Motorola First to Demonstrate ZigBee 2.4 GHz Wireless Networking Technology Recently Approved IEEE 802.15.4 Standard for ZigBee Applications AUSTIN, Texas -- May 27, 2003 -- Motorola Inc. (NYSE:MOT) is now delivering hardware and software samples to several development partners in support of the draft IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) 802.15.4 Standard being driven by the ZigBee Alliance -- an association of companies working together to enable reliable, cost-effective, low-power, wirelessly networked, monitoring and control products based on an open global standard. http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,2743_2228_23,00.html -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
[nycwireless] Jacket left at meeting
Grey Banana republic jacket. Pick up any weekday 930am - 7pm. -> Joe -- === Joe Plotkin DSL/Marketing Bway.net - NYC's Best Internet === Bway.net 459 Broadway, 2nd floor New York, NY 10013 vox: 212.982.9800 fax: 212.982.5499 efax: 772.365.5877 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] xDSL info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://www.bway.net === Fight the Monopoly! http://www.TeleTruth.org === -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: Re: [nycwireless] Goal Accomplished, "resource points"
A good resource point example ... that would be a first, a virtual drive by Blockbuster :-) - Jon - Original Message - From: "Otsinekwar Ohkwari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:01 AM Subject: Re: Re: [nycwireless] Goal Accomplished, "resource points" > > Hi Jon et al, the Free Music/Video sites will likely pop up ALOT soon albeit inadvertantly. Sonic Blue/Go Video has a DVD player that from what I saw also has 802.11b in it so you can stream Audio and or Video to it from you PC. I haven't done any research into it yet but I like the idea, curious if it has WEP or any other scheme to keep your neighbors from also enjoying your video collection(I'm happy to share mine tho the MPAA likely won't be happy bout it) > > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
[nycwireless] Omni-directional w/ tripod ...
I seem to get alot of questions about the antenna I use @ the meetings so I thought Id post the company TechnoLab, Inc. link ... http://www.technolab-inc.com/cgi-local/ppalstore/ppalstore.cgi?product=odantennas Of course the prices have gone up since I got it due to demand but they also have a much wider selection of connectors to choice from now ... the dBi mentioned is 6.7 but I get more around like 8-10 and it's good enough to tuck away in a backpack. - Jon -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
