RE: [nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose. An Experts Opinion

[Shaibal Mitra]

Hi Peter and all,

Two facts have been known for a long time but seem consistently neglected in 
the conventional wisdom:

1. Richardson's Goose has occurred in the Northeast for a long time (old 
specimen records), it is increasing in abundance and distribution, and it is 
highly  variable..
2. Despite lots of talk, parvipes is not known to occur in the Northeast (no 
NYS specimen records from the pre-split days, unlike Richardson's).

Discussions of the kind surrounding the Central Park goose arise all the time, 
frequently enough that I think they need to be framed better.

Typically, the starting point is perplexity over a bird that resembles a 
Richardson's Goose in several ways, but deviates in some way (usually body size 
or bill size).

I don't have time to compile my notes in detail right now, but I found some 
relevant verbiage in my outbox, from a discussion of a larger-than-expected 
Richardson's type from Bergen, NJ, back in January 2010:

“I think people's idea of what a 'standard-issue' Richardson's Goose looks like 
has been skewed by its perceived rarity, so that the smallest, most extreme 
individuals have been reported/identified disproportionately in our region. On 
LI, we have often found obvious (= extreme) Richardson's Geese in the company 
of somewhat larger but otherwise essentially identical individuals.

Data from the breeding grounds show that male Richardson's Geese, while smaller 
than Canada Geese, are by no means always tiny. I have argued that the 
conservative approach to larger-than-expected  birds showing the characters of 
this taxon in our region is Richardson's until proven otherwise. That is, the 
burden of proof has shifted to those who suggest that parvipes Lesser Canada 
Geese occur at all regularly in our region."

Having said all this, I agree that the Central Park bird's bill seems very 
large for a Richardson's. But that's just one character. On the pro 
Richardson's side is a very important field mark that we worked out in the 
early years of this era of gossaging: dorsal contour.

Richardson's Geese have long wings in proportion to their body size. At rest, 
the peak of the back rises close to the front end of the body (often in a 
distinct little hump), then drops back in a long straight line, or even a 
slightly concave line, through the relatively long (usually pale) tertials. 
Furthermore, the tertials account for a larger proportion of the length of the 
dorsal contour.

In contrast, in Canada Goose, the dorsal contour is better described as a 
hemispheric dome, peaking farther back, at the middle of the body, and 
appearing evenly rounded.

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore





From: bounce-120166812-11143...@list.cornell.edu 
[bounce-120166812-11143...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Peter Post 
[pwp...@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 2:55 PM
To: NYSbirds-L@cornell.edu cornell
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose. An Experts Opinion

Jean Irons kindly forwarded my query concerning the Id of the Central Park 
goose to goose expert Ken Abraham. His opinion is that it is a Cackling Goose 
(B. hutchinsii). Details below:

Peter Post


Begin forwarded message:

From: jeani...@sympatico.ca<mailto:jeani...@sympatico.ca>
Date: February 15, 2016 11:09:48 AM EST
To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu<mailto:birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] goose ID
Reply-To: jeani...@sympatico.ca<mailto:jeani...@sympatico.ca>

Hi Peter,



We asked goose expert Ken Abraham to comment. Please see
below.



“It’s difficult to tell what this bird is, other than
that it is smaller white-cheeked goose than the associated birds (which are
likely large Canada Geese of the local breeding population). The bill is the
obvious character trait that doesn’t fit the birder’s conventional wisdom that
a cackling goose must have a short, stubby, triangular bill. This is not the
case. Photographs of breeding geese from Southampton Island and western Hudson
Bay coast of Nunavut deemed to be B. hutchinsii show a variety of bill shapes,
including ones that look like the bird in this observation. There is also a
fairly large variation in B. hutchinsii body size from the Nunavut-Manitoba
border to Baffin Island  (larger in the
south approaching the low end of the B. c. interior size range).



My usual caveat about identification of any eastern
white-cheeked goose as a Lesser Canada Goose B. c. parvipes is that such a bird
would be exceedingly exceedingly rare based on all known band recoveries from
the restricted breeding range of B. c. parvipes
as it understood since the revision of thinking about species and
subspecies in the 2004 A.O.U. split. Current thinking is that B. c. parvipes is
restricted to Alaska, and that the small white cheeked geese across the
Canadian arctic from Yukon to Nunavut are B.
hutchinsii. The observer of this bird

[nysbirds-l] Central Park goose again

[Thomas Fiore]

Thanks again to Peter Post for his finding & photographing the goose  
in question at the Central Park reservoir (in Manhattan) and for doing  
some follow-up, making photos available.  For those not subscribed,  
the publicly-accessible archive for the "Frontiers of Identification"  
birding list-serve, and the specific post with lengthy comments from  
Ken Abraham, are here:  http://listserv.ksu.edu/web?A2=ind1602c&L=birdwg01&T=0&P=169 
   (note too that this was forwarded on by Jean Irons, & the comments  
are all from Ken Abraham, & not from Irons or Pittaway.)


I'll second that I'd have not looked at this as a Cackling, & in fact  
did not in the last 3 days while it's been present on the reservoir in  
Central Park. And I am definitely not at all expert of these geese  
forms!


Tom Fiore
Manhattan

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Re:[nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose. An Experts Opinion

[Andrew Baksh]

Ken is right about "Lesser Canada" which is what I alluded to in my earlier 
response. The question for me then is, what does B.Hutchinsii "variant" really 
mean? Conservative approach to something none of us could really put a label 
on? 

I see Geese like this at many locations throughout our area and at no time at 
all am I considering Cackling subspecies. Perhaps, I need to rethink that. I 
imagine eBird reviewers will have their work cut out for them with this one 
going forward.

Personally, I would not call this a Cackling Goose subspecies b.hutchinnsi. But 
then, I am no expert on these matters ;-)

Cheers,

風　Swift as the wind
林　Quiet as the forest
火　Conquer like the fire
山　Steady as the mountain
Sun Tzu  The Art of War

> (__/)
> (= '.'=)
> (") _ (") 
> Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device! 

Andrew Baksh
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 2:55 PM, Peter Post  wrote:
> 
> 
> Jean Irons kindly forwarded my query concerning the Id of the Central Park 
> goose to goose expert Ken Abraham. His opinion is that it is a Cackling Goose 
> (B. hutchinsii). Details below:
> 
> Peter Post
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: jeani...@sympatico.ca
>> Date: February 15, 2016 11:09:48 AM EST
>> To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] goose ID
>> Reply-To: jeani...@sympatico.ca
>> 
>> Hi Peter,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> We asked goose expert Ken Abraham to comment. Please see
>> below.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> “It’s difficult to tell what this bird is, other than
>> that it is smaller white-cheeked goose than the associated birds (which are
>> likely large Canada Geese of the local breeding population). The bill is the
>> obvious character trait that doesn’t fit the birder’s conventional wisdom 
>> that
>> a cackling goose must have a short, stubby, triangular bill. This is not the
>> case. Photographs of breeding geese from Southampton Island and western 
>> Hudson
>> Bay coast of Nunavut deemed to be B. hutchinsii show a variety of bill 
>> shapes,
>> including ones that look like the bird in this observation. There is also a
>> fairly large variation in B. hutchinsii body size from the Nunavut-Manitoba
>> border to Baffin Island  (larger in the
>> south approaching the low end of the B. c. interior size range).  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My usual caveat about identification of any eastern
>> white-cheeked goose as a Lesser Canada Goose B. c. parvipes is that such a 
>> bird
>> would be exceedingly exceedingly rare based on all known band recoveries from
>> the restricted breeding range of B. c. parvipes 
>> as it understood since the revision of thinking about species and
>> subspecies in the 2004 A.O.U. split. Current thinking is that B. c. parvipes 
>> is
>> restricted to Alaska, and that the small white cheeked geese across the
>> Canadian arctic from Yukon to Nunavut are B. 
>> hutchinsii. The observer of this bird may not be aware of this (and
>> frankly most people aren’t because some of the information isn’t published or
>> widely available).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thus, as a conservative thinker on this issue of small
>> white-cheeked geese, I would call this bird a B. hutchinsii variant.”
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
>> 
>> Toronto ON
>> 
>> 
>>> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 11:28:03 -0500
>>> From: pwp...@nyc.rr.com
>>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] goose ID
>>> To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu
>>> 
>>> I  photographed this goose, yesterday, 13 February, on the Central  
>>> Park Reservoir, New York City. I would  appreciate comments  
>>> concerning ID. I'm leaning toward B. canadensis parvipes. Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Photos can be found here:
>>> http://www.ardithbondi.com/page127.html
>>> 
>>> Peter Post
>>> New York City, NY 
>>> 
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 

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[nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose. An Experts Opinion

[Peter Post]

Jean Irons kindly forwarded my query concerning the Id of the Central  
Park goose to goose expert Ken Abraham. His opinion is that it is a  
Cackling Goose (B. hutchinsii). Details below:

Peter Post


Begin forwarded message:

> From: jeani...@sympatico.ca
> Date: February 15, 2016 11:09:48 AM EST
> To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] goose ID
> Reply-To: jeani...@sympatico.ca
>
> Hi Peter,
>
>
>
> We asked goose expert Ken Abraham to comment. Please see
> below.
>
>
>
> “It’s difficult to tell what this bird is, other than
> that it is smaller white-cheeked goose than the associated birds  
> (which are
> likely large Canada Geese of the local breeding population). The  
> bill is the
> obvious character trait that doesn’t fit the birder’s conventional  
> wisdom that
> a cackling goose must have a short, stubby, triangular bill. This  
> is not the
> case. Photographs of breeding geese from Southampton Island and  
> western Hudson
> Bay coast of Nunavut deemed to be B. hutchinsii show a variety of  
> bill shapes,
> including ones that look like the bird in this observation. There  
> is also a
> fairly large variation in B. hutchinsii body size from the Nunavut- 
> Manitoba
> border to Baffin Island  (larger in the
> south approaching the low end of the B. c. interior size range).
>
>
>
> My usual caveat about identification of any eastern
> white-cheeked goose as a Lesser Canada Goose B. c. parvipes is that  
> such a bird
> would be exceedingly exceedingly rare based on all known band  
> recoveries from
> the restricted breeding range of B. c. parvipes
> as it understood since the revision of thinking about species and
> subspecies in the 2004 A.O.U. split. Current thinking is that B. c.  
> parvipes is
> restricted to Alaska, and that the small white cheeked geese across  
> the
> Canadian arctic from Yukon to Nunavut are B.
> hutchinsii. The observer of this bird may not be aware of this (and
> frankly most people aren’t because some of the information isn’t  
> published or
> widely available).
>
>
>
> Thus, as a conservative thinker on this issue of small
> white-cheeked geese, I would call this bird a B. hutchinsii variant.”
>
>
>
> Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
>
> Toronto ON
>
>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 11:28:03 -0500
>> From: pwp...@nyc.rr.com
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] goose ID
>> To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu
>>
>> I  photographed this goose, yesterday, 13 February, on the Central
>> Park Reservoir, New York City. I would  appreciate comments
>> concerning ID. I'm leaning toward B. canadensis parvipes. Thanks.
>>
>> Photos can be found here:
>> http://www.ardithbondi.com/page127.html
>>
>> Peter Post
>> New York City, NY
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>   
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


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Re: [nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose

[Andrew Baksh]

Hi Peter,

Good eye in picking this out at Central Park and thanks for posting a link
to your photos. After looking at the images, I feel your bird does not have
the features for the expected Richardson's Cackling and I suspect that it
is also not a a fit for *Taverneri (the largest of the Cackling
subspecies) *which would require a more steeper culmen slope*. *As far as a
Lesser Canada, this is even harder to ascertain. A bird like this, I either
catalog as a "Lesser Canada Type" or a runt "Branta Canadensis."

The White-cheeked complex I find even tougher than Shorebirds or Gulls. I
recently went through an exercise with a larger than average Cackling type
species of Goose. I was really sure that I had finally set my eyes on a
possible Taverneri but after research and consultation, I finally conceded
that the subject was probably a "Richardson's Cackling" Goose; albeit one
of the larger ones I have seen.

Cheers,


風 Swift as the wind
林 Quiet as the forest
火 Conquer like the fire
山 Steady as the mountain
Sun Tzu   *The Art of War*


(__/)
(= '.'=)

(") _ (")

Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device!


Andrew Baksh
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com

On Feb 14, 2016, at 11:41 AM, Peter Post  wrote:


Photos of the goose I found yesterday on the Central Park Reservoir can be
found here:
http://www.ardithbondi.com/page127.html

I'm leaning towards Lesser Canada Goose (B. canadensis parvipes). Other
opinions are welcome.

The link has also been posted to Frontiers of Bird Identification.

Peter Post


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[nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose

[Peter Post]

Photos of the goose I found yesterday on the Central Park Reservoir  
can be found here:

http://www.ardithbondi.com/page127.html

I'm leaning towards Lesser Canada Goose (B. canadensis parvipes).  
Other opinions are welcome.


The link has also been posted to Frontiers of Bird Identification.

Peter Post


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[nysbirds-l] Central Park goose

[pwpost]

After getting home, and looking at my photos and some brief literature search,I 
believe that the bird I reported earlier may be a Lesser Canada Goose. Stay 
tuned. 

Peter Post

Sent from my iPhone
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