RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
At 19:39 -0700 7/21/03, Marty Minick wrote: 1) The kernel If WOTC (and the mass of gamers) could afford to have monthly updates to the core rulebooks, they would. BUT... the large majority of gamers that i know are complaining about the upgrade to 3.5 because of the cost. More the cost-to-utility ratio, is what i've heard. People are bitching not just because they have to buy new books, but because they aren't all that different, either. Now, of course, if the change was as radical as from ADD2 to DD3E, we'd be hearing a whole 'nother calibre of bitchin'. But, I haven't heard anyone complaining because it'll cost them $60 to pick up Arcana Unearthed and Diamand Throne, because the material is new and/or different and/or better, at least in some sense. I certainly am not suggesting monthly updates. I'm suggesting that WotC keep an eye on what's good and what's popular in other D20 products, and incorporate the best of the OGC into their new edition every 3/5/X years. While 3.5E apparently responds to lots of critiques of 3E, which is good, it's not the same thing. One is reactive (this is broke, so we'll fix it), the other is proactive (let's find new cool ways to improve the game). The former will refine DD, but never evolve it. [/hyperbole] 2) Dragon Magazine is (according to the cover, as if there was ever any doubt) 100% Official Therefore, it's as close as it comes to the montly updates, and each and every game wherein the DM or one of the players has a subscription benefits from the many monkeys. ok. that's news to me. I hadn't realized regular official DD material had shown up in Dragon (other than perhaps Sage Advice) since From the Sorcerer's Scroll stopped appearing. Apparently the stance has changed (i haven't read it closely since they dropped non-DD material a few years ago). Historically (as in, for the 15 years i had a subscription, and most of the 8 years before that), Dragon has made a big deal about how *none* of the material was official, except for a few select columns (like From the Sorcerer's Scroll). So that's why there's any doubt as to its officialness (i.e., i'm apparently out of touch). -- woodelf* [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/ The Laws of Anime http://www.abcb.com/laws/index.htm: #8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage. Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the brain. ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
At 21:37 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote: A lot of things that were being done by fans (and a few things being done by other D20 games) were included in 3.5. Such as? I'm seriously interested. From everything i've read online, the changes definitely addressed *problems* that fans had brought up, but i didn't get the impression that the *solutions* fans had implemented were being used. And it can't very well be using any rules content from other D20 games, since it's not abiding by the WotC OGL--unless WotC wants to reverse their stance on the ownability of game mechanics, and claim that they can't be IP. (Well, unless there's a separate agreement/license to use the material, of coures. But unless there's material being reused, it's a moot point.) -- woodelf* [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/ The Laws of Anime http://www.abcb.com/laws/index.htm: #8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage. Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the brain. ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
[tongue firmly in cheek] At 12:00 AM 7/22/2003 -0500, woodelf wrote: So that's why there's any doubt as to its officialness (i.e., i'm apparently out of touch). Well, obviously, just a day ago you admitted you had no clue how little mindshare penetration the OGL had. :-) [/tongue] Joe ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
Tell them it works like Linux... :-) Will -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 11:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing OK, all of you saying that the public is clueless about D20/OGL, you get to say i told you so: I just followed a link to the WotC boards, looking for something else. And there, in a thread about the release of DD3.5E, is someone sayin' i just don't get this whole OGL thing--how does WotC expect to make any money if they give their books away? [i'm paraphrasing, but not by much]. Three years later, and this is someone who's at least sufficiently net-savvy to know it exists, and to be chatting online. And he doesn't actually know how the whole D20STL thing works, in terms of a business model. And the original D20SRD certainly hasn't made WotC bankrupt, so assuming that they are somehow giving it all away seems vaguely ludicrous, and yet here he is asking just that. OK, you win (whoever you are)--we've still got a long way to go in making open gaming a viable beast, and giving D20 System some reasonable fraction of the oomph of DD on a book. -- woodelf* [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/ The Laws of Anime http://www.abcb.com/laws/index.htm: #8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage. Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the brain. ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
On 21 Jul 2003 William scribbled a note about RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing: Tell them it works like Linux... So does that make Hasbro the equivalent of SCO? :) TANSTAAFL Rasyr (Tim Dugger) System Editor Iron Crown Enterprises - http://www.ironcrown.com E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
Tim Dugger wrote: On 21 Jul 2003 William scribbled a note about RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing: Tell them it works like Linux... So does that make Hasbro the equivalent of SCO? Only if Hasbro starts trying to sue people who make d20 products. ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
My thoughts exactly but it wouldn't be Hasbro that would do the suing. It would be some company they sell the IP to later on. You'd want to take a step or two back from the franchise so as not to get your own hands dirty. QUEUE_THEME_X-FILES/ Will -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Looney Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing Tim Dugger wrote: On 21 Jul 2003 William scribbled a note about RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing: Tell them it works like Linux... So does that make Hasbro the equivalent of SCO? Only if Hasbro starts trying to sue people who make d20 products. ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 22:39, Martin L. Shoemaker wrote: And by comparison, on Amazon.com, the DD Players Handbook is currently ranked 15 in sales (DMG is 16, MM is 19). The day it shipped, the 3.0 PHB hit #3, behind a Harry Potter book and a Tom Clancy novel. :) Ryan ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote: Tell them it works like Linux... ...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want, except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds. -- woodelf* [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/ The Laws of Anime http://www.abcb.com/laws/index.htm: #8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage. Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the brain. ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
--- woodelf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote: Tell them it works like Linux... ...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want, except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds. Think so? Take a look in some of the recent Dragon magazines, where they've published OGC content. That's now available to a HUGE number of games. = BORGSTROM'S FIRST LAW (of Game Design): If you want to emphasize something, make sure everyone knows that they shouldn't have anything to do with it. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
At 17:08 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote: --- woodelf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote: Tell them it works like Linux... ...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want, except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds. Think so? Take a look in some of the recent Dragon magazines, where they've published OGC content. That's now available to a HUGE number of games. it's still not being incorporated into the kernel. not saying it never will, but until WotC decides to take all that cool OGC floating around out there and make the next version of DD the latest, cutting-edge game they can, using the very best ideas out there, DD itself isn't directly benefitting from open-source development. Indirectly, sure, from the whole network externalities thing. But not from the many monkeys thing. and since WotC doesn't own Dragon any more, it's even less like reworking the core stuff than it would've been had a WotC-owned Dragon published unofficial game stuff. -- woodelf* [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/ The Laws of Anime http://www.abcb.com/laws/index.htm: #8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage. Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the brain. ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
de-activating cloak OK, Had to stick this into the argument, here... 1) The "kernel" If WOTC (and the mass of gamers)could afford to have monthly updates to the core rulebooks, they would. BUT... the large majority of gamers that i know are complaining about the upgrade to 3.5 because of the cost. 2) Dragon Magazine is (according to the cover, as if there was ever any doubt) "100% Official" Therefore, it's as close as it comes to the montly updates, and each and every game wherein the DM or one of the players has a subscription benefits from the many monkeys. re-activating cloakwoodelf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 17:08 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote:--- woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:it's still not being incorporated into "the kernel". not saying it never will, but until WotC decides to take all that cool OGC floating around out there and make the next version of DD the latest, cutting-edge game they can, using the very best ideas out there, DD itself isn't directly benefitting from open-source development. Indirectly, sure, from the whole "network externalities" thing. But not from the "many monkeys" thing.and since WotC doesn't own Dragon any more, it's even less like reworking the core stuff than it would've been had a WotC-owned Dragon published unofficial game stuff.-- "I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature."-- Thomas Jefferson |\ /| |\ |\ \ / /\ \| || |\/| |\ |\/| | X | |/ |\ X \/ | | | | | |/ | | |/ \| |\ | / \ /\ |\ | | | | |\ | | Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
I VERY MUCH believe that some third-party material WILL be making it into the 'kernel' next spring. Remember the accidental reissue of the psionics chapter when they did the final SRD release? Those prestige classes from If Thoughts Could Kill were in it instead of the ones from the PsiHB. And the PsiHB3.5 comes out in the spring, so here's my $10 bet that we'll see some third-party material in it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of woodelf Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing At 17:08 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote: --- woodelf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote: Tell them it works like Linux... ...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want, except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds. Think so? Take a look in some of the recent Dragon magazines, where they've published OGC content. That's now available to a HUGE number of games. it's still not being incorporated into the kernel. not saying it never will, but until WotC decides to take all that cool OGC floating around out there and make the next version of DD the latest, cutting-edge game they can, using the very best ideas out there, DD itself isn't directly benefitting from open-source development. Indirectly, sure, from the whole network externalities thing. But not from the many monkeys thing. and since WotC doesn't own Dragon any more, it's even less like reworking the core stuff than it would've been had a WotC-owned Dragon published unofficial game stuff. -- woodelf* [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/ The Laws of Anime http://www.abcb.com/laws/index.htm: #8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage. Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the brain. ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 11:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing OK, you win (whoever you are)--we've still got a long way to go in making open gaming a viable beast, and giving D20 System some reasonable fraction of the oomph of DD on a book. I wish I (and others) weren't right in this regard. But it's really, really clear once you step outside the world of you and your close companions (or me and my close companions, or...) and into the mass market. The vast majority of the mass market plays games, and doesn't really follow the business behind the games that much. It's just that those who do (like us) tend to be more visible and vocal, I think. The two main OGF mailing lists come to close to 1200 addresses, but with a lot of overlap. And we don't by any means agree that WE all understand the licenses correctly. But I think it's a fair bet that most people who care enough about the OGL and the d20 license to actually understand and comply with them are on these lists. (If they're not, they're missing a valuable resource!) There are some decent sources outside these lists (EN World, other sites); but those sources tend to lead people here, sooner or later. Assuming that the two lists are entirely distinct (which they're not)... And assuming everyone on either list understands the licenses well enough to give D20 System some oomph... And assuming that for every person on this list, 10 more people get the point, but don't care enough to be on the lists (And have you explained it to 10 people who actually get it, more or less? I think I can count 5.)... Then we'd be looking at 13,200 people who understand the basic relations between DD, D20, and OGL. By comparison, that's roughly half the crowd that attended GenCon in 2001. Or the print run for a small-to-middling supplement. And by comparison, on Amazon.com, the DD Players Handbook is currently ranked 15 in sales (DMG is 16, MM is 19). I don't know what that equates to in sales volume; but it's pretty huge in terms of visibility. I don't know what sales of the DD 3.0 game books have been; but I suspect they make 13,200 look pretty small. The whole Open Gaming movement is such an Inside Baseball sort of thing: even where it benefits the mass market a lot, the market only sees the results, not the inside details. And many will ignore the details, and some will just make up their own theories/wishes about the details, and some will misinterpret the details. Martin L. Shoemaker [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.TabletUML.com -- The UML tool you don't have to learn! ___ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
