Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[seth Nimbosa]

Basically, we need to take one step back so we can move forward.

the OpenSolaris community as it is has always been small from the start
after Sun was swallowed by Oracle and all official development ceased

we had to start over with illumos and OpenIndiana,
however, there has not been much collaboration outside of Nexenta and
Joyent internal developement, and there is a general feeling of a hack and
slash attitude within illumos and OpenIndiana circles, not very inviting to
contributors as significant UNIX code-base inherited from Sun's Solaris
core is shrinking while the bloat and half-baked code is growing

I think people behind TribbliX, XStreamOS, DilOS, napp-it and OmniOS should
get together with Schillix and OpenSXCE (previously MartUX) in re-creating
the original code-base with significant code improvement plugged in, if
any..

another concern is the 3-Gigabyte download for live media!!!  i remember
there was a time when there was a light OpenSolaris LiveCD based on build
134 (700++ MB), which was easy to try and actually instantly install, from
which additional packages can be added to build the system that's right for
you.. even with fast internet connection a 3-GB media is too hard to
swallow and a high barrier for would-be developers and casual slackers
trying a modern UNIX-based system

I haven't kept track how build 134 metamorphosed into build 151a9 today,
since 2011 I was busy in developing Network Technologies and integrated
solutions through Unified Communications and virtualization working with
Cisco.com after my failed attempt at volunteering at Sun just when Oracle
bought it, but i think it is never too late to take one step back and pick
the pieces of our OpenSolaris community, as the only open source UNIX
community

a large-scale community collaboration of all OpenSolaris-based distribution
is needed, and I am willing to do my part in bringing this together,
hopefully people from the illumos Foundation can help, but the community
must move forward with or without their stewardship, what we need is a
massive de-duplication of efforts in our community focused on code-based
development not dictated by corporate pragmatic decisions alone..

we can start with a BitBucket or a GitHub repository to rehabilitate the
OpenSolaris code and compile all significant improvements and replacements
with minimal code-slashing and considerable code-review, this can be done
incrementally

Sincerely yours,

Seth Nimbosa, your Brother and Comrade-in-Arms
​
http://twitter.com/nimbosa
FB.com/nimbosa



 -- ** * ** --

* Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work*
*and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for -*

*in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car,
and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it.  *

  - Ellen Goodman





*Joerg Schilling*
​​
Joerg.Schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de

*Tue Sep 3 09:11:10 UTC 2013*

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Ray Arachelian <



​​
ray at arachelian.com > wrote:

>* > Since oi_151a9 was scheduled for release this month, some initial
*
Could someone explain why you udr 151a9?


-   It is not based on onnv_151

-   It is most likely not the 151th release for OI

-   It is based like others on onnv_147+

>* > thoughts:
*>* >
*>* > 1. bump illumos to b02c4a353739
*>* > 2. bump oi-jds to ee8cf112eec2 (hg.opensolaris.cz/oi-jds
)
*>* > 3. Nvidia 304.108 video driver
*>* > 4. Xnv_161 integration (Alasdair ?)
*>* >
*>* Can we add USB 3.0 support, and SATA 6GB support? Please?
*
I am not sure whether you are aware about the fact that OpenSoaris has few
contributors and that Illumos is trying to frighten developers by not being a
sure partner you may trust.

Promising to include software causes people to spend time in creating a webrev,
but later not doing a code review causes at least this time to be wasted. This
finally ends up in not fulfilling a commitment and is toxic for Illumos
credibility.

Adding code with known bugs to Illumos even though it did not pass a
codereview, just because the code is from an animal that is more equal
than others destroys credibility.

Illumos also drives in a direction

Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Vincent Torri]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:30 AM, seth Nimbosa  wrote:
> Basically, we need to take one step back so we can move forward.
>
> the OpenSolaris community as it is has always been small from the start
> after Sun was swallowed by Oracle and all official development ceased
>
> we had to start over with illumos and OpenIndiana,
> however, there has not been much collaboration outside of Nexenta and Joyent
> internal developement, and there is a general feeling of a hack and slash
> attitude within illumos and OpenIndiana circles, not very inviting to
> contributors as significant UNIX code-base inherited from Sun's Solaris core
> is shrinking while the bloat and half-baked code is growing
>

imho, if you want to attract people, the OI (and other distributions)
should do some advertising. That is, when a release is done, posting
news on

 * phoronix
 * osnews
 * slashdot
 * reddit
 * lwn.net
 * linuxfr.org (french website)
 * others i don't know

etc... I know that some of those site are first dedicated to linux but
there have been several posts there for other OS too.

I know that it is boring (i myself was doing that for a library), but
it's a very good way to attract users or developpers.

best regards

Vincent Torri

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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Jonathan Adams]

*Joerg Schilling* wrote:

"I am not sure whether you are aware about the fact that OpenSoaris has few
contributors and that Illumos is trying to frighten developers by not being
a sure partner you may trust"

Please take that with a pinch of salt. Joerg is an experienced and prolific
programmer, who has done great things and is very supportive of Solaris ...
but he doesn't like Garrett, and because he sees the Illumos fork as a
project implemented by Garrett, doesn't play well with Illumos.

He has been asked to contribute on many occasions, and his response isn't
to create diff/patches it is to say "you should just use my version of the
program" ... not even explaining the differences or why you should use his
program.

because we fail to use his program, he asserts that we don't accept
contributions and therefore are not a trustable community.

Schillix has 2 contributors, neither of which is paid to work on the
project so cannot devote much time to it.

OpenSXCE has 1 contributor, and because of the way that that project is set
up, it can only have 1 contributor, and as much love and respect as we can
give from this community to Martin, he needs to go and get a job and start
eating.

PS. if you go to Schillix you will find that your ZFS is no longer
compatible with either Illumos/*BSD/Linux or even with Oracle Solaris for
that matter, both have major enhancements, although both differ slightly.

Just my 2cents.

Jon
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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Alasdair Lumsden]

Hi Seth,

When I started OpenIndiana, I wanted to avoid the "Linux Distribution
Fragmentation" issue, so I created a community distro and tried to solicit
input from everyone and try to keep everyone happy.

I failed miserably. Nobody wants to collaborate, everyone wants to do their
own thing. Hence the huge number of distros you see before you.

Even OpenIndiana itself can't agree on things, hence /dev vs /hipster, one
spearheaded by Andrzej Szeszo, the other by Jon Tibble.

The problem with OpenSolaris was that it was a diabolical mess... a vast
array of undocumented consolidations all using disparate build systems,
cobbled together with a horrific shambles of a system called distro-import.

The OmniOS guys saw this mess and decided "fuck that" and started from
scratch. A server OS, keeping key things like the IPS package system.

Nexenta is a lost cause, their internal politics and agendas made
collaboration impossible. They are schizophrenic - they couldn't decide
between making a Debian like illumos based OS, a storage OS or a Desktop
OS, nor how to do it. Total shambles. Their attempt at collaboration on
"illumos-userland" and then subsequent reversal completely screwed OI at a
key time.

Joyent have one clear goal - Datacenter. SmartOS is great for that. They
have no interest in helping anyone else out with their distributions. They
don't want illumos to succeed as a desktop OS competitor to Linux, to the
point of being actively hostile to the entire concept. Grep the #illumos
irc log for wesolows.

TribbliX was a for fun desktop-oriented distro (correct me if I'm wrong) by
someone that hates IPS and loves SVR4 packaging. I got the impression Peter
never seemed to want to help OI out directly because of the IPS issue.

XStreamOS, DilOS, Schillix etc all have their own goals and agendas, and
again, have no interest in collaborating.

There is no community. Only self centered individuals who think their way
is best. Fragmentation was inevitable. I stated very clearly that I thought
fragmentation would kill illumos. I still feel that today - fragmentation
is killing illumos. Instead of one strong OS, we have a dozen fringe ones.

Nobody listened. Don't expect them to now.

Alasdair.


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:30 AM, seth Nimbosa wrote:

> Basically, we need to take one step back so we can move forward.
>
> the OpenSolaris community as it is has always been small from the start
> after Sun was swallowed by Oracle and all official development ceased
>
> we had to start over with illumos and OpenIndiana,
> however, there has not been much collaboration outside of Nexenta and
> Joyent internal developement, and there is a general feeling of a hack and
> slash attitude within illumos and OpenIndiana circles, not very inviting to
> contributors as significant UNIX code-base inherited from Sun's Solaris
> core is shrinking while the bloat and half-baked code is growing
>
> I think people behind TribbliX, XStreamOS, DilOS, napp-it and OmniOS
> should get together with Schillix and OpenSXCE (previously MartUX) in
> re-creating the original code-base with significant code improvement
> plugged in, if any..
>
> another concern is the 3-Gigabyte download for live media!!!  i remember
> there was a time when there was a light OpenSolaris LiveCD based on build
> 134 (700++ MB), which was easy to try and actually instantly install, from
> which additional packages can be added to build the system that's right for
> you.. even with fast internet connection a 3-GB media is too hard to
> swallow and a high barrier for would-be developers and casual slackers
> trying a modern UNIX-based system
>
> I haven't kept track how build 134 metamorphosed into build 151a9 today,
> since 2011 I was busy in developing Network Technologies and integrated
> solutions through Unified Communications and virtualization working with
> Cisco.com after my failed attempt at volunteering at Sun just when Oracle
> bought it, but i think it is never too late to take one step back and pick
> the pieces of our OpenSolaris community, as the only open source UNIX
> community
>
> a large-scale community collaboration of all OpenSolaris-based
> distribution is needed, and I am willing to do my part in bringing this
> together, hopefully people from the illumos Foundation can help, but the
> community must move forward with or without their stewardship, what we need
> is a massive de-duplication of efforts in our community focused on
> code-based development not dictated by corporate pragmatic decisions alone..
>
> we can start with a BitBucket or a GitHub repository to rehabilitate the
> OpenSolaris code and compile all significant improvements and replacements
> with minimal code-slashing and considerable code-review, this can be done
> incrementally
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> Seth Nimbosa, your Brother and Comrade-in-Arms
> 
> http://twitter.com/nimbosa
> FB.com/nimbosa
>
>
>
>  -- ** * ** --
>
> * Normal is getting dressed in clothe

Re: [oi-dev] [discuss] Re: oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Joerg Schilling]

seth Nimbosa  wrote:

> Basically, we need to take one step back so we can move forward.
>
> the OpenSolaris community as it is has always been small from the start
> after Sun was swallowed by Oracle and all official development ceased
>
> we had to start over with illumos and OpenIndiana,
> however, there has not been much collaboration outside of Nexenta and
> Joyent internal developement, and there is a general feeling of a hack and
> slash attitude within illumos and OpenIndiana circles, not very inviting to
> contributors as significant UNIX code-base inherited from Sun's Solaris
> core is shrinking while the bloat and half-baked code is growing
>
> I think people behind TribbliX, XStreamOS, DilOS, napp-it and OmniOS should
> get together with Schillix and OpenSXCE (previously MartUX) in re-creating
> the original code-base with significant code improvement plugged in, if
> any..

I tried to initiate such a collaboration, but there was no feedback so far.

Note that for being able to have a collaboration with OpenSolaris, there is a 
need to understand what constraints have to be respected. A source setup that 
does not include Svr4 package meta data is e.g. not useful as a base for 
colaboration.

In order to come to a collaboration, I would like to know whether there are 
people that would be willing to respect other projects constraints. If this is 
impossible, we will not be able to collaborate.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)  
   joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: 
http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

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[oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Andri L. Vicko]

Hi,

I Hope on Next OpenIndiana oi_151a9 will be support Emulex 16 Gbps and
Qlogic 16 Gbps for comstar target.

Currently if we used 16 Gbps, comstar speed still 8 Gbps.

Thanks,
Andri L. Vicko



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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Joerg Schilling]

Jonathan Adams  wrote:

> *Joerg Schilling* wrote:
>
> "I am not sure whether you are aware about the fact that OpenSoaris has few
> contributors and that Illumos is trying to frighten developers by not being
> a sure partner you may trust"

Wow, a reply after more than 5 months

> Please take that with a pinch of salt. Joerg is an experienced and prolific
> programmer, who has done great things and is very supportive of Solaris ...
> but he doesn't like Garrett, and because he sees the Illumos fork as a
> project implemented by Garrett, doesn't play well with Illumos.

You may either missinterpret things or you are incorrectly informed.

Claiming that I don't like Garret is not correct. It is however most probable 
that Garret does not like me. What happened is that Garret promised me, before 
Illumos was created, that Illumos will definitely integrate e.g. star (star 
integration was planned and approved by Sun for Solaris-10 on initiative by Sun 
- not me). After Garret publically announced Illumos, he was no longer 
interested in his promise. This caused Illumos to become implausible as a 
project.

> He has been asked to contribute on many occasions, and his response isn't
> to create diff/patches it is to say "you should just use my version of the
> program" ... not even explaining the differences or why you should use his
> program.

This is wrong - sorry.

There was a webrev for star integration but Garret just ignored it. If you are
interested in the credibility of the Illumos project and you have influence on 
the project, you could make the promise happen. To do this, you may take the 
current code from the SchilliX-ON code repository and integrate it into 
Illumos.


> Schillix has 2 contributors, neither of which is paid to work on the
> project so cannot devote much time to it.

SchilliX currently has three contributors. You are correct, nobody is payed for 
this purpose.

> OpenSXCE has 1 contributor, and because of the way that that project is set
> up, it can only have 1 contributor, and as much love and respect as we can
> give from this community to Martin, he needs to go and get a job and start
> eating.

If I am informed correctly, TribbliX also is a 1 contributor project.

> PS. if you go to Schillix you will find that your ZFS is no longer
> compatible with either Illumos/*BSD/Linux or even with Oracle Solaris for
> that matter, both have major enhancements, although both differ slightly.

The problem with OpenZFS is that is does not have an own code repository. In 
addition, I have not yet been able to find the documentation of the general 
method used for implementing enhancements. Once I could review this method and
it turns out that the current OpenZFS code still fits into OpenSolaris, I am 
willing to upgrade. 

Collaboration is a result of promises and credibility by implementing said 
promises. Collaboration is also a result of compromises. If you are not 
willing to make compromises, you try to dictace what other people may do and
this is not compatibile with collaboration.

I am open for a collaboration for OpenSolaris as long as there is room for 
different goals in the different distros.



Jörg

-- 
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   j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)  
   joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: 
http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Joerg Schilling]

Alasdair Lumsden  wrote:

> Hi Seth,
>
> When I started OpenIndiana, I wanted to avoid the "Linux Distribution
> Fragmentation" issue, so I created a community distro and tried to solicit
> input from everyone and try to keep everyone happy.
>
> I failed miserably. Nobody wants to collaborate, everyone wants to do their
> own thing. Hence the huge number of distros you see before you.

The problem with OpenIndiana is that it is a continuation project for "Sun 
Indiana". Sun Indiana however (if ignoring the IPS issue) has been created 
using my project proposal for a community based distro I send to Sun in 2005.
Sun did take the ideas from the proposal but did not collaborate... 

OpenIndiana for this reason has a heritage of missing collaboration. It needs 
to be restructured in order to prevent contradictions with other distros in 
order to allow collaboration.

> XStreamOS, DilOS, Schillix etc all have their own goals and agendas, and
> again, have no interest in collaborating.

I cannot speak for the other distros, but SchilliX definitely is interested in 
collaboration once possible partners do not act in a way that prevents 
collaboration. Note that I am trying to support collaboration since September 
2004 and definitely since June 17 2005 when SchilliX was published as the first 
OpenSolaris based distro.

What do we need for collaboration?

Well

-   IPS must not be the only packaging

-   /usr/gnu must not be the default first entry in PATH

-   /sbin/sh may be a link to the Bourne Shell

-   scripts need to be open for being able to mount /usr using
the Bourne Shell.

-   We need to find a way for versioned libraries to support
as much binary compatibility as possible.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)  
   joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: 
http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014, Alasdair Lumsden wrote:


There is no community. Only self centered individuals who think their way is 
best. Fragmentation was inevitable. I stated very
clearly that I thought fragmentation would kill illumos. I still feel that 
today - fragmentation is killing illumos. Instead of one
strong OS, we have a dozen fringe ones.


I think that you must be biased due to your background.  I am on 
almost all the mailing lists (including Illumos) and I do see plenty 
of collaboration and contributions to Illumos.  In fact, there is 
considerable recent activity and contributions from many parties.

Illumos contributions seem to be rather well managed and tracked.

Some fragmentation is a good thing because it proves that multiple 
parties can deal with the code base and allows people to explore their 
own ideas.  TribbliX is an excellent example of that.


There is a rather similar situation with Linux.  There is (mostly) one 
Linux kernel and baseline environment but many different Linux 
distributions which construct different application frameworks on top. 
OpenIndiana is like a Linux distribution.


Regardless, I don't see this discussion has anything to do with 16 
Gbit FC support (a driver/enumeration issue) and I don't see how an 
opinion from someone who starts off like "I haven't kept track how 
build 134 metamorphosed into build 151a9 today" can have much merit 
when he then produces a long opinion on the very topic he claims he 
has not paid any attention to.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Udo Grabowski (IMK)]

On 12/02/2014 14:25, Andri L. Vicko wrote:

Hi,

I Hope on Next OpenIndiana oi_151a9 will be support Emulex 16 Gbps and
Qlogic 16 Gbps for comstar target.


?? A9 is already released.


--
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KIT - Karlsruhe Institute of Technologyhttp://www.kit.edu
Postfach 3640,76021 Karlsruhe,Germany  T:(+49)721 608-26026 F:-926026



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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Vincent Torri]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Udo Grabowski (IMK)
 wrote:
> On 12/02/2014 14:25, Andri L. Vicko wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I Hope on Next OpenIndiana oi_151a9 will be support Emulex 16 Gbps and
>> Qlogic 16 Gbps for comstar target.
>>
> ?? A9 is already released.

really ?

http://openindiana.org/  <-- 151a8
http://openindiana.org/download/  <-- 151a8

Vincent Torri

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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Milan Jurik]

Hi,

On st, 2014-02-12 at 19:38 +0100, Vincent Torri wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Udo Grabowski (IMK)
>  wrote:
> > On 12/02/2014 14:25, Andri L. Vicko wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I Hope on Next OpenIndiana oi_151a9 will be support Emulex 16 Gbps and
> >> Qlogic 16 Gbps for comstar target.
> >>
> > ?? A9 is already released.
> 
> really ?
> 
> http://openindiana.org/  <-- 151a8
> http://openindiana.org/download/  <-- 151a8
> 

really - http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev/

> Vincent Torri
> 

Best regards,

Milan


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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Vincent Torri]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Milan Jurik  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On st, 2014-02-12 at 19:38 +0100, Vincent Torri wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Udo Grabowski (IMK)
>>  wrote:
>> > On 12/02/2014 14:25, Andri L. Vicko wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> I Hope on Next OpenIndiana oi_151a9 will be support Emulex 16 Gbps and
>> >> Qlogic 16 Gbps for comstar target.
>> >>
>> > ?? A9 is already released.
>>
>> really ?
>>
>> http://openindiana.org/  <-- 151a8
>> http://openindiana.org/download/  <-- 151a8
>>
>
> really - http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev/

it's a joke ? you guys don't mention nor provide the new release on
your **own** website... so the users have to look at some obscure
adress (i don't even know if it's mentioned on openindiana.org) to get
it ?

i understand  now why openindiana don't attract people...

Vincent Torri

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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Milan Jurik]

Hi,

On st, 2014-02-12 at 19:48 +0100, Vincent Torri wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Milan Jurik  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On st, 2014-02-12 at 19:38 +0100, Vincent Torri wrote:
> >> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Udo Grabowski (IMK)
> >>  wrote:
> >> > On 12/02/2014 14:25, Andri L. Vicko wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >> I Hope on Next OpenIndiana oi_151a9 will be support Emulex 16 Gbps and
> >> >> Qlogic 16 Gbps for comstar target.
> >> >>
> >> > ?? A9 is already released.
> >>
> >> really ?
> >>
> >> http://openindiana.org/  <-- 151a8
> >> http://openindiana.org/download/  <-- 151a8
> >>
> >
> > really - http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev/
> 
> it's a joke ? you guys don't mention nor provide the new release on
> your **own** website... so the users have to look at some obscure
> adress (i don't even know if it's mentioned on openindiana.org) to get
> it ?
> 

It is not joke. It is about that people working on it have no time to do
more. And the rest of people is just filling the mailing lists of ...

It is not obscure address for power-users.

> i understand  now why openindiana don't attract people...
> 

Well, it is not easy toy.

> Vincent Torri
> 

Best regards,

Milan


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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Bryan N Iotti]

Besides, isn't a9 a bugfix only release that hasn't been spun as an ISO?

If so, that's why it's not directly listed on the download page.

The pkg.openindiana‎.org/dev address is the default publisher for OI, so just 
installing from the latest iso and running pkg update should get you to 151a9.

Do note that most of the people here are knowledgeable and will try to be 
helpful if possible, but do not tolerate aggressive or downright abusive 
questions (and shouldn't have to).

Bryan

‎
---
Bryan N Iotti
ironsides.med...@runbox.com
+39 366 3708436
  Original Message  
From: Milan Jurik
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 20:00
To: OpenIndiana Developer mailing list
Reply To: OpenIndiana Developer mailing list
Subject: Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

Hi,

On st, 2014-02-12 at 19:48 +0100, Vincent Torri wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Milan Jurik  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On st, 2014-02-12 at 19:38 +0100, Vincent Torri wrote:
> >> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Udo Grabowski (IMK)
> >>  wrote:
> >> > On 12/02/2014 14:25, Andri L. Vicko wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >> I Hope on Next OpenIndiana oi_151a9 will be support Emulex 16 Gbps and
> >> >> Qlogic 16 Gbps for comstar target.
> >> >>
> >> > ?? A9 is already released.
> >>
> >> really ?
> >>
> >> http://openindiana.org/ <-- 151a8
> >> http://openindiana.org/download/ <-- 151a8
> >>
> >
> > really - http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev/
> 
> it's a joke ? you guys don't mention nor provide the new release on
> your **own** website... so the users have to look at some obscure
> adress (i don't even know if it's mentioned on openindiana.org) to get
> it ?
> 

It is not joke. It is about that people working on it have no time to do
more. And the rest of people is just filling the mailing lists of ...

It is not obscure address for power-users.

> i understand now why openindiana don't attract people...
> 

Well, it is not easy toy.

> Vincent Torri
> 

Best regards,

Milan


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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Peter Tribble]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Alasdair Lumsden wrote:

>
> TribbliX was a for fun desktop-oriented distro (correct me if I'm wrong)
> by someone that hates IPS and loves SVR4 packaging. I got the impression
> Peter never seemed to want to help OI out directly because of the IPS issue.
>

That's partially true, but not entirely. It's true that I hate IPS,
part of that is emotional and psychological scars that will
probably never heal, and they run deep.

I have no particular love for SVR4 - it's there, it's compatible with
every other Solaris system I run, it's good enough (unlike IPS), it
doesn't suffer from the crippling technical limitations of IPS, and
I'm sufficiently familiar with it that I can use it with zero effort. For a
hobby distro, minimizing effort is paramount. Had I come from
a different background, I might have chosen rpm or dpkg.

Tribblix is definitely for fun, and has the advantage that I completely
understand the needs of its target audience. (Currently, just me.)
Desktop orientation is a reflection of current state rather than future
intentions, though.

People naturally work on different things in different ways. If there's
a net benefit to working together (and there are always costs to doing
so - whether that be making a commitment, surrendering control, fitting
in to alien processes, or having to support something you're opposed to)
then people will do so; it gets much harder if there isn't a net benefit.

I decided that the amount of effort I would have to expend to make
another distro do what I want was far higher than the effort
needed to directly build it from scratch, and I was right on that.
And, just as importantly, I learnt far more from doing so than I
would have otherwise.

I suspect that there will always be multiple distros - we have multiple
packaging systems, variant desktop philosophies, appliance vs
server vs desktop vs general-purpose. The real focus ought to be
illumos, and any distro adds to the overall ecosystem.

Strengthening that ecosystem ought to be the goal, not picking
a winning distro or forcing people with different aims and objectives
to toe some common party line. In many ways, much of that work
needs to be done outside our own community - by working with
other communities to strengthen their support of illumos/Solaris
based systems.

(Ideally, you want other communities to build and distribute software
for you. That's one area where IPS is a huge obstacle - all this
repository stuff is an intolerable burden on third parties, pushes you
in the direction of central control and bottlenecks, and discourages
the long tail of drive-by contributors that is key to successful
projects. [See what Linus was talking about recently, although
that was about the problems with CLAs. Same issue of reducing
barriers to participation, though.])

-- 
-Peter Tribble
http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Alan Coopersmith]

On 02/12/14 12:41 PM, Peter Tribble wrote:

(Ideally, you want other communities to build and distribute software
for you. That's one area where IPS is a huge obstacle - all this
repository stuff is an intolerable burden on third parties,


Nearly all package systems have repositories, what makes IPS more intolerable
than the rest?   (Or had you just not noticed that support for package archives,
basically tarball versions of IPS packages, was added to IPS in years past?
It wasn't there in the 0.1 version used in the initial OpenSolaris releases,
but that was what the kids today call "Minimum Viable Product" not the intended
final state of features.)

http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E26502_01/html/E21383/pkgcreate.html#gluem

--
-Alan Coopersmith-  alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Engineering - http://blogs.oracle.com/alanc

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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[ken mays]

Vincent,

The manufacturers provide the drivers and chose whether to support their newer 
products on S11 or illumos-based OSes.

You can use /hipster for modern server installs:
http://dlc.openindiana.org/isos/hipster/OI-hipster-text-20140124.iso


oi_151a8:
http://dlc.openindiana.org/isos/151a8/oi-dev-151a8-text-x86.iso


With a8, you can use the proper procedures for pkg updating to the a9 release 
which is a bug fix snapshot release of packages in IPS. The next ISO release of 
this branch may be planned for a10.

People contribute as they have interests. Just look at the efforts of the 
oi-userland team.

~ Ken Mays



On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 1:39 PM, Vincent Torri 
 wrote:
 
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Udo Grabowski (IMK)
 wrote:
> On 12/02/2014 14:25, Andri L. Vicko wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I Hope on Next OpenIndiana oi_151a9 will be support Emulex 16 Gbps and
>> Qlogic 16 Gbps for comstar target.
>>
> ?? A9 is already released.

really ?

http://openindiana.org/  <-- 151a8
http://openindiana.org/download/  <-- 151a8

Vincent Torri


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Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[seth Nimbosa]

I think the general idea is to get to a minimum criteria as basis for wider
collaboration.  We have to start small and manageable and agreeable. Then
others will follow if they see the benefits of that working together for a
healthier code and healthier community guidelines, then there will be lower
barriers for participation, more consensus-building and pooling together
the best solutions out there.

I am inviting Alasdair, Peter Tribble, Jörg Schilling and Martin Bochnig to
discuss this and find the best way forward in creating this smaller circle
to create greater trust and more support from within the
OpenSolaris-derived communities and the wider ecosystem.  The perks would
be participation of more stakeholders and better performance from healthy
code maintenance and less work for we know who does what where, this
further invites more hobbyist and professionals to devote their time if we
have a better framework. In a sense we need to build confidence in the core
technologies.

Thank you all for your response.  I am driving you to re-think. It is my
personal dream to see our community finally take off and overcome this
"heritage of missing collaboration" from Sun in illumos and OpenIndiana.

I am very positive about future collaboration with UNIX lovers so we can
evolve the best UNIX ever.


Sincerely yours,

Seth Nimbosa, your Brother and Comrade-in-Arms
​
http://twitter.com/nimbosa
FB.com/nimbosa





 -- ** * ** --

* Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work*
*and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for -*

*in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car,and
the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it.  *

  - Ellen Goodman


On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Peter Tribble wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Alasdair Lumsden 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> TribbliX was a for fun desktop-oriented distro (correct me if I'm wrong)
>> by someone that hates IPS and loves SVR4 packaging. I got the impression
>> Peter never seemed to want to help OI out directly because of the IPS issue.
>>
>
> That's partially true, but not entirely. It's true that I hate IPS,
> part of that is emotional and psychological scars that will
> probably never heal, and they run deep.
>
> I have no particular love for SVR4 - it's there, it's compatible with
> every other Solaris system I run, it's good enough (unlike IPS), it
> doesn't suffer from the crippling technical limitations of IPS, and
> I'm sufficiently familiar with it that I can use it with zero effort. For a
> hobby distro, minimizing effort is paramount. Had I come from
> a different background, I might have chosen rpm or dpkg.
>
> Tribblix is definitely for fun, and has the advantage that I completely
> understand the needs of its target audience. (Currently, just me.)
> Desktop orientation is a reflection of current state rather than future
> intentions, though.
>
> People naturally work on different things in different ways. If there's
> ​ ​
> a net benefit to working together (and there are always costs to doing
> ​ ​
> so - whether that be making a commitment, surrendering control, fitting
> ​ ​
> in to alien processes, or having to support something you're opposed to)
> ​ ​
> then people will do so; it gets much harder if there isn't a net benefit.
>
> I decided that the amount of effort I would have to expend to make
> ​ ​
> another distro do what I want was far higher than the effort
> ​ ​
> needed to directly build it from scratch, and I was right on that.
> ​ ​
> And, just as importantly, I learnt far more from doing so than I
> ​ ​
> would have otherwise.
>
> I suspect that there will always be multiple distros - we have multiple
> packaging systems, variant desktop philosophies, appliance vs
> server vs desktop vs general-purpose. The real focus ought to be
> illumos, and any distro adds to the overall ecosystem.
>
> Strengthening that ecosystem ought to be the goal, not picking
> a winning distro or forcing people with different aims and objectives
> to toe some common party line. In many ways, much of that work
> needs to be done outside our own community - by working with
> other communities to strengthen their support of illumos/Solaris
> based systems.
>
> (Ideally, you want other communities to build and distribute software
> for you. That's one area where IPS is a huge obstacle - all this
> repository stuff is an intolerable burden on third parties, pushes you
> in the direction of central control and bottlenecks, and discourages
> the long tail of drive-by contributors that is key to successful
> projects. [See what Linus was talking about recently, although
> that was about the problems with CLAs. Same issue of reducing
> barriers to participation, though.])
>
> --
> -Peter Tribble
> http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
>
__
_
​On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Joerg Schilling <
jo

Re: [oi-dev] oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Jean-Pierre André]

Hi,

Alan Coopersmith wrote:

On 02/12/14 12:41 PM, Peter Tribble wrote:

(Ideally, you want other communities to build and distribute software
for you. That's one area where IPS is a huge obstacle - all this
repository stuff is an intolerable burden on third parties,


Nearly all package systems have repositories, what makes IPS more
intolerable
than the rest?   (Or had you just not noticed that support for package
archives,
basically tarball versions of IPS packages, was added to IPS in years past?


Oh, great, I did not know.

I have three computers, but the hardware for two of them is
not supported by OI. I can only install OI on third one,
but the WiFi network access is not supported.

So, basically I have to download through Windows or Linux,
but I do not known how to "ftp" or "wget" an update, or
anything which is not available in an ISO, from an IPS ?

I am the maintainer of ntfs-3g. How should I deposit an "IPS
package" on a plain web server I do not control ?
(see http://jp-andre.pagesperso-orange.fr/openindiana-ntfs-3g.html)



It wasn't there in the 0.1 version used in the initial OpenSolaris
releases,
but that was what the kids today call "Minimum Viable Product" not the
intended
final state of features.)

http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E26502_01/html/E21383/pkgcreate.html#gluem





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Re: [oi-dev] [discuss] Re: oi_151a9 roadmap & planning

[Alasdair Lumsden]

> From: darth.seri...@gmail.com 

> 
> Thank you all for your response. I am driving you to re-think. It is 
> my personal dream to see our community finally take off and overcome 
> this "heritage of missing collaboration" from Sun in illumos and 
> OpenIndiana. 

With all due respect Seth, you don't know what you're talking about. These 
discussions were had years ago. Who are you to tell us all what you think we 
should all be doing? What gives you the right to pop up out of nowhere, and 
tell others what to do?

We've all made our choices. We all have diametrically opposed viewpoints on how 
things should be done. Many of these viewpoints are irreconcilable, such as the 
IPS debate. I love IPS, and many of the core OI devs love IPS. IPS in our 
opinion is an excellent package management system. I can't speak for all the OI 
devs but I have absolutely no interest what so ever moving away from it.

Peter, Jorg and Martin hate IPS. They still think it can't deliver file based 
packages, demonstrating a complete bloody mindedness the likes of which you'll 
only find in UNIX circles. Maybe you'll get some consensus there, but I doubt 
it. Tribblix, OpenSXCE and Schillix are each distinct separate operating 
systems. Each of them is a personal passion project. Each of them has been done 
mostly in isolation with few outside collaborators. I can't see any of them 
abandoning their babies now.

OpenIndiana is the only distro with a wide (albeit still tiny in the grand 
scheme of things) community developer base. You want to help? Join #oi-dev on 
irc.freenode.net and check out oi-userland and start hacking:

https://github.com/OpenIndiana/oi-userland

This circle jerk nirvana future you wish to create will never exist. If you 
want to help, pick a project and start hacking. Talk is cheap.  
  
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