Re: Freeze on Impress

[floris v]

Tested on Windows Vista with build 9567, no crash.
Peter roelofsen

Op 20-9-2011 15:22, Raphael Bircher schreef:

Hello

I have found a freeze in Impress. Steps to reproduce:
- Start impress, and create a new doc
- Type samething on the first slide
- Add a slide
- Type samething on the second slide
- Open Print Dialog, and go to the tab OpenOffice.org Impress
- Try to check "Distribute on multiple sheets on paper"

OpenOffice.org Freeze.

Tested with a self backed AOOo (with --disable-copyleft) an a Mac OS X 
10.5.


Are there other Systems affected? Is this bug still in a older Version 
of OOo?


Greetings Raphael

Fake OOo download website that loads malware

[floris v]

Hello, in the old oooforum.org forum this topic was posted: 
http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?p=485494#485494


It appears that if you download and install OOo from 
http://www.office-suite-download.com/ you also get the funmoods toolbar 
and a lot of trouble. Can you take action against it? Thank you.


Peter aka floris v

Late introduction :={

[floris v]

Hi,

Apologies for posting earlier without properly introducing myself. I'm 
Peter Roelofsen, better known as floris v on the OOo forums, where I 
mostly answer Writer related questions. I'll occasionally answer posts 
in this mailing list when they're about something that I can cover, like 
confirming that OOo will or won't hang or crash on some action.


Cheers,

Peter

Re: [AOOo 4.0] dev wishlist (Re: Starting a conversation on AOOo 4.0)

[floris v]

I'd like some long standing feature requests to be implemented. 
especially that when you perform a replace all, the cursor is returned 
to the location where you were instead of leaving you where the last 
item was replaced. That's a big time saver for people who do a lot of 
editing of for instance manuscripts. You can then at page 150 suddenly 
want to replace some word with something else everywhere in the document 
and continue where you were without fuss. Now you first have to enter 
some weird character sequence, or a bookmark, do the repalce, then 
search the crazy character sequence or use the bookmark to return. It 
has been discussed a lot in the issue tracker, but for some reason the 
developers weren't impressed by the arguments of the users.

See https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=8288
It'd require very little coding.

Op 21-9-2011 23:25, Pedro F. Giffuni schreef:

Hmm ...OK.

- You've been hearing I'd like to see a more Apache
   (not necessarily Java) stuff.
- OCR capabilities (Google made them free) would
   also be nice.

But here is a really crazy idea:

How about using the Math Template Library for calc:

http://osl.iu.edu/research/mtl/mtl2.php3

MTL4 has an open source version too: both are
basically a BSD-like license with advertisement
clause.

I am not sure if most people will feel comfortable
having (for example) imaginary numbers in a cell,
but I've heard people using math-specific tools
that would like to do serious calculations in a
spreadsheet. This would make calc an interesting
tool for "real" scientific users.

cheers,

Pedro.

Re: Starting a conversation on AOOo 4.0

[floris v]

I'm not so sure that further differentiation between AOO and LO is such 
a good idea. The Document Foundation with LO was started because some 
people didn't trust Oracle. Now that the code base is being transferred 
to ASF, and it looks like ASF is taking its responsibility for OOo 
seriously (from the outsider's point of view), the need for a separate 
LO may disappear. There is some concern that the community will split 
over the differences between the two versions, and a big difference in 
the user interface won't make that better. And if OOo users want to help 
LO users in the forums, that will be easier the more the two programs 
resemble each other in look and feel.
A very different reason to keep things as they are that it always takes 
time to get used to a new UI. I _hate_ the most recent changes in the UI 
of most browsers, that make finding the options screen almost 
impossible, and that only because the designers wanted to get rid of the 
menu bar. We still work with the qwerty keyboard, that has been designed 
to slow typists down, so I can't find a good reason to change a working UI.

Thank you,
Peter aka floris v


Op 22-9-2011 19:28, Guy Waterval schreef:

Hi all,

2011/9/21 Rob Weir


I don't want to distract us too much for the 3.4.0 work.  There is a
lot of work to do, mainly around the detailed work of IP review.
However, I think we should have a parallel conversation, with project
contributors as well as with users, about what we could do after that,
in a major release.


Perhaps time is coming to try to change the interface. We've now two
projects LO and AOO which have the same look and it's perhaps not so good. I
think a new look for AOO could give it a better identitiy and could be more
attactive for the mass of the end users as the old one. But as I'm not a
coder, I don't know if this could be "easily" realisable.

Best regards
gw

Re: consolidation of Windows Build software requirements

[floris v]

Op 23-9-2011 11:39, Tor Lillqvist schreef:

Sp2is still widely used and installed in low specs computers in developing
countries where no licensed copies of MS exist (and where the use of
unlicensed copies of software is not illegal). These computers are a part of
OOo's market.

Sorry if I am missing something, but why wouldn't these people use an
unlicensed copy (cracked if necessary) of the "real thing", i.e. MS
Office, then, if it is not illegal?

Imagine trying to convince them to use OOo: "OK, I see you are using
an unlicensed copy of Windows, oh well, that is legal in your country,
and MS is evil anyway, so I don't mind. Now, look at what I have here,
lovely office software which is almost as good as MS Office, and it
doesn't cost anything! And it is Open Source! Don't you want to use
it, please? Please?"

--tml
Win XP is also still widely used by people who post in the Dutch nl 
community forum to report problems with installing the latest version of 
OOo. I doubt very much that those people post from a developing country. 
Then again, those people will have a fully upgraded system with SP3, 
yes, that's the latest.

Peter aka floris v

Re: Starting a conversation on AOOo 4.0

[floris v]

  
  
I have no problem with some changes in the interface where they are
helpful. 
For instance: The way that page styles are applied is very
counter-intuitive. We get dozens of posts in the forums about how to
make a document with a heading on all pages except the first, and
also from people who select a page style for a page somewhere in the
middle of a document and then find that it has been applied to the
entire document. Page styles are really powerful and easy to use
once you get the hang of the concept and of how they are implemented
and applied, but until you get the hang of it, they can - and often
do - drive you up the wall. So, a better Insert - manual break
dialog box would be a big help - probably more text in it, like
"Select the page style for the next page" instead of just "Style",
would already help.  

    Peter aka floris v

Op 23-9-2011 16:08, Jürgen Schmidt schreef:

  On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Fernand Vanrie  wrote:


  
On 23/09/2011 15:28, Rob Weir wrote:
 We don't want to upset that. On the other hand, most of our potential
users are using MS Office, and they have radically changed their UI...

Yes, with many pro's  and con's but we still have the 1 milion question:
Must aOO or/and LO be a copy of the MS Office and his  UI ?


  
  
mmh, no direct answer. I would prefer if we are trying to provide the best
and most intuitive solution to fulfill a specific task or to make new
features as easy as possible available. Simplicity combined with
effectiveness is what counts in the end and what will bring us new users and
make existing users happy.

Juergen




  

Greetz

Fernand



  
  



  

Re: Starting a conversation on AOOo 4.0

[floris v]

Op 25-9-2011 8:05, Alexandro Colorado schreef:

On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 12:53 AM, Tor Lillqvist  wrote:


So, Tor, what is your point of view on UI changes?

I am all in favour of changing the UI, but I am fully aware that I am
not an expert in UI issues, and don't claim to know how it should be
changed. (Also, I am a programmer, not an office software user; I
actually use LibreOffice (or OOo) for real work quite seldom.) I don't
think generalizations and "well-known truths" are trustworthy.
Especially, one should be careful of falling into the trap of
claiming some UI is "intuitive". It is fairly natural that if one has
used Phillips head screws for a decade, Torx head screws feel
unintuitive. Or that if one has used GIMP for a decade, Photoshop
feels unintuitive.


I would rather go to improve the usability factors that are different from
changing the UI. Usability means doing things faster and with less clicks.
There are many users that have put long lasting bugs and usability issues.
For example Writer behaves different than Draw on some things that make no
sense. For example, image handling in writer are limited from basic Draw
functionality like rotate a bitmap image. Writer can link frames as a
ongoing text while draw can't do the same.
Programatically it would make more sense these services work together just
like Writer and Calc used the same service for their tables.



--tml


+ 1
Add fixing long standing bugs and implementing long standing feature 
requests. There are a few that IMHO are rather important.
* I already mentioned the keep cursor position after a Replace all and a 
better interface for manual breaks.
* There's a bug in the conversion filter to and from Word: the mechanism 
of changing page styles in the page style definition (like in First 
page, where a different style is set for the next page) and page style 
changes linked to a paragraph style, like Heading 1. At present the only 
page style change that properly converts is the manual page break. All 
other page style breaks get lost in conversion. I can attach a Writer 
and Word file with that effect if desired. It's a major pain for people 
who have to send files in doc format to business relations.


Peter aka floris v

Re: Forums not reachable

[floris v]

Op 28-9-2011 8:58, Rory O'Farrell schreef:

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 08:50:41 +0200
Reizinger Zoltán  wrote:


The forums not reachable, at least to me,  on address
http://user.services.openoffice.org
Somebody knows why?

Not reachable here either, Zoltan, for at least the last 36 hours.  A posting 
on oooforum.org notes that the site is down, but gives no reason
http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=131317

I noticed it too, and I'm an admin at the Dutch nl forum. But I'm as 
ignorant about what's going on as everybody else. :=(

Re: Forums not reachable

[floris v]

Op 29-9-2011 10:54, Rory O'Farrell schreef:

On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:00:04 +0200
Christian Grobmeier  wrote:



It is is still a confusing situation, and we finally started a draft
of the necessary changes:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Changes+integrate+the+forums+into+the+AOOo+project
but as you can see, it is incomplete and not yet voteable. Some more
work is required. The offline time of the boards does not help, of
course :(

Hope I have expressed everything very well.

Very well (and fairly) expressed, Christian.

The comments by Peter Roelhofsen (floris_v on the forum) on the wiki page cited 
above in general express the overall view of forum volunteers, I think; we 
mostly feel that trying to impose the existing Apache structure on the forms is 
overkill and may stifle it.  I recommend that the comments on the wiki page be 
carefully read;  note that the forum is willing to modify its structures to fit 
in with Apache, but there does not seem to be a similar flexibility on the 
Apache side.

The forum downtime (which I hope is being worked upon) does not help us move 
towards a decision.

+1.
Add that the discussion could continue on

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Changes+integrate+the+forums+into+the+AOOo+project
 but it doesn't. Why? Is there something wrong with how I expressed myself 
there?

Re: Top posting is bad

[floris v]

Op 30-9-2011 10:46, Ross Gardler schreef:

At the risk of starting a flame-war I am going to state that
top-posting is bad on publicly archived mailing lists. Can we please
stop doing it?

It is very difficult to understand what is going on in a mailing list,
especially the archives, if it is common practice to top-post rather
than reply inline.

The problem is that one has to go back to the beginning of a thread to
get a grasp of the context of a discussion. Top posting assumes that
everyone has read every word up until that post. Very often this is
not the case. Very often people dip into a thread half way through.
Either because they have been busy for a few hours whilst the
discussion progressed or because they got to the message via an
archive search.

Replying inline with careful cutting of no longer relevant content
(this is the hard part), retains context and allows people to
understand the main gist of what is being said. If someone is looking
for the answer to a question in the archives, this context will tell
them if the answer provide is for the question they are asking (in
fact inline posting makes most search engines more accurate too as a
result of proximity matching). If the person is dipping in to an
ongoing thread the context can tell them how far back they need to
read in order to understand the current position.

I realise that some people disagree with this and prefer top posting.
However, in ASF projects it is generally accepted that top posting is
bad. Other environments are good for top posting, but ASF projects are
not.

Ross


That was probably aimed at me. Sorry if my posting behaviour makes for 
hard reading, but for me the inline replying is hard to follow.

Peter aka floris v

Re: [DISCUSS] Review of OpenOffice.org Forums Agreement

[floris v]

Op 11-10-2011 23:30, Kazunari Hirano schreef:

Hi Drew and all,

I sent an email to Vietnamese and Chinese forum admins and asked them
to read the proposal and say something.
:)
But I have not heard from them yet.  Have you, Drew?

Thanks,
khirano
Your chances to hear something from the Vietnamese forum staff are slim 
to nonexistent.

Re: [DISCUSS] Review of OpenOffice.org Forums Agreement

[floris v]

Op 11-10-2011 23:46, Dennis E. Hamilton schreef:

*H.* Should the ASF or the Apache OpenOffice.org project decide to
terminate its support of the forums, it will grant a period of at
least 90 days for the transfer of the contents and structure of the
forums to another host as decided by the Administrators, Moderators
and Volunteers.

The PPMC is not empowered to agree to a clause that reads, "The ASF will
grant 90 days to someone".  Only the board and officers can make
commitments on behalf of the org.

That's just the legal side of things and is not the same as the question
of whether one should expect the ASF, should any of its entities decide
to take the forums down, provide advance warning or migration codepath.

The relevant entities in this case include IPMC, Infra, and Board.
How exactly should I understand this? Is this meant to be discouraging, 
like: forum people, you might as well leave right now?

Re: Status of migration of OOo domains?

[floris v]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what's really the problem with the
Kenai templates and all that? If we can import the actual data (which, I
suppose, sits in a database) in some readable format, isn't it possible
to replace the Kenai stuff with Apache stuff? There'd probably be only
one html or php page with the Oracle and Kenai logos on it and all pages
in that section would be extracted from the db and inserted in that
template. Not such a big deal, or so it seems. All that is needed is
Apache logos and maybe some other graphics and formatting like different
fonts, dependent on what goes with the Apache styles. What am I missing?
Peter Roelofsen aka floris v

Re: Status of migration of OOo domains?

[floris v]

Op 14-10-2011 0:02, Kay Schenk schreef:



On 10/13/2011 12:31 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:


On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:57 AM, floris v wrote:


Please forgive my ignorance, but what's really the problem with
the Kenai templates and all that? If we can import the actual data
(which, I suppose, sits in a database) in some readable format,
isn't it possible to replace the Kenai stuff with Apache stuff?
There'd probably be only one html or php page with the Oracle and
Kenai logos on it and all pages in that section would be extracted
from the db and inserted in that template. Not such a big deal, or
so it seems. All that is needed is Apache logos and maybe some
other graphics and formatting like different fonts, dependent on
what goes with the Apache styles. What am I missing?


You are missing nothing. Much of the OOo web code is in the AOOo svn
repository already. Kenai has svn and there are scripts in our
project svn to export.

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/website-local.html

I am working on the wrapping. It is almost to the point where anyone
can easily help and I'll update those instructions. Other plans seem
to be coming together soon, in a matter of weeks.

Shane is looking for a more immediate solution. He is asking if it is
possible to change the existing site template hosted by Oracle at
Kenai. This is not so easy, but we are looking to see if someone has
that "foo" and will step forward.


HI floris v...

and mostly ditto on Dave's comments. We have NO intention of trying to 
recreate kenai. The problem at the moment is no one, and I do think I 
mean pretty much no one (well Andrew says he has access to "the 
machine" but can he can fix the Oracle branding?), is even minding the 
kenai.org (now .com) store. That is, this site/project, was also 
abandoned by Oracle just about the time it gave over OpenOffice to 
Apache. Go to


http://kenai.com/

to read what's there.

What this essentially means is there's a machine up complete with a 
bunch of old kenai projects on it (OpenOffice.org being one) and no 
kenai master at hand.


Our best best, IMHO, is to just get the DNS (name transfer to Apache) 
done as quickly as possible; do whatever we need to to get a skeleton 
site up (Dave and I, but mostly Dave have been working toward this for 
a bit); fix the DNS records to point openoffice.org to the new "actual 
Apache machine", and get on with it.


Bottom line. We will NOT be using kenai templates, (and yes, we've 
already got the relevant page "guts" if you will,) and we don't care 
about them *now* except for all the Oracle branding that's there and 
we can't fix. Andrew might be able to figure this out...I don't know.




Regards, Dave



Peter Roelofsen aka floris v





You mean to say: you can't find anybody at Oracle ready to give somebody 
at Apache ftp access to the Kenai servers to download all content. 
That's pretty awful.

Re: Forums down: SQL Error: Too many connections [1040]

[floris v]

Op 17-10-2011 14:28, Shane Curcuru schreef:
Is this kind of error transient, or do we need someone on the Oracle 
side to fix it?


Trying to read anything in the en forums 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ seems to get this error:


General Error
SQL ERROR [ mysqli ]

Too many connections [1040]

- Shane, who does read forums (but still prefers properly threaded 
email clients)

Same for all nl forums too. That's been going on for days.
Peter aka floris v

Re: [Proposal] Renaming of OpenOffice.org

[floris v]

Op 17-10-2011 23:54, Ian Lynch schreef:

I propose that we rename OpenOffice.org Apache OpenOffice and abbreviate it
to ApacheOO or AOO and trademark each of those terms. At the same time
invite submissions for a new logo or logos based on these terms with a
deadline of end of November after which the PPMC decides it by vote.

You could also consider Apache Office, as all Apache software is open 
source. But maybe that's too far away from the original.

Re: [DISCUSS] Review of OpenOffice.org Forums Agreement

[floris v]

Op 18-10-2011 9:58, Ross Gardler schreef:

Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
On Oct 18, 2011 1:56 AM, "Rob Weir"  wrote:

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton

wrote:

The stated [DISCUSS] expiration of midnight, today, 2011-10-17T24:00Z

has arrived.

The discussion has quieted and there appears to be no objection to

conducting a [VOTE] ratifying the PPMC acceptance of the proposal, with the
modest adjustments that were made.

On a different thread, it was observed that, since there is no further

discussion, and there was no opposition, the proposal should be considered
ratified, a sort of lazy consensus:

<

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3cCAP-ksogkFzGgLB0ALY=vjap7q3d2pefucc-v1m3+rpoxuo7...@mail.gmail.com%3e

.

I want to be clear, that this [DISCUSS] was not for voting but to review

the proposal in preparation for voting.  Although it might be assumed that
there is no objection to the proposal's adoption by the PPMC, that was not
the question.
This is fundamental to the process of lazy consensus. If an objection is not
raised during discussion how can people consider the merit of that
objection? There should be no discussion in a vote thread, all opinions
should already have been heard.


I am also concerned that the OpenOffice.org Forum operators are being

denied an important ceremonial act on our part.
On the contrary. Avoiding the need to vote is the most important part of
consensus building in an Apache project.

Apache projects are about avoiding "ceremonial acts"and all about getting
stiff done.
The forum staff also really want to get things done. We also have a kind 
of lazy consensus, but there really was very little discussion here, and 
that might be due to general agreement as well as a general lack of 
interest. After all the user forums are so far an alien element in the 
Apache developers community. I can perfectly imagine that most of the 
committers think on the line of WTF (many of the questions on the forum 
are from people who didn't RTFM, others didn't search the forum, and a 
few actually report bugs or ask for features, and some of both have 
already been filed years ago),  just as something like 90 % of the posts 
on the mailing list is totally irrelevant for the average forum 
volunteer.  We seem to have some 60-90 volunteers (some 60 on the EN 
forum, and more on the others who maybe never post on the EN one) and of 
those only 35 voted for or against the proposal.
A vote may be purely ceremonial, but it would kind of make clear how 
many people actually care enough for (or against? - dubious English, but 
you get the point) the project to vote.



Since it would take as long to introduce a lazy consensus, now, as to

actually conduct the [VOTE], I intend to go ahead with the [VOTE] once I
come up with an appropriate wording and message.  Then it will all be clear,
won't it?
If there are no objections and the discussion has run it's course then one
can assume lazy consensus has already been achieved.

All that being said, this is a new community, calling the odd vote that is
not necessary will not cause harm. Getting bogged down in endless process
will, however cause delays and frustration. My post is about the longer
term.


Actually, I object to the ceremony of a poorly motivated vote..  There
were no objections to the proposal.  The forum volunteers should go
ahead and implement the proposal.


+1

If Dennis really feels it is necessary to give a last chance for objection
(it's good to be inclusive) simply state that we believe consensus has been
reached. In the meantime, if I were a forum volunteer I'd be making my
preparations already. The volunteers will be doing the work, the only person
who can object now is someone implementing an alternative and no such person
has been seen in all the time discussing.

Ross

Re: [DISCUSS] Review of OpenOffice.org Forums Agreement

[floris v]

Op 18-10-2011 10:23, Ross Gardler schreef:

On 18 October 2011 09:15, floris v  wrote:

...


A vote may be purely ceremonial, but it would kind of make clear how many
people actually care enough for (or against? - dubious English, but you get
the point) the project to vote.

In principle this is true. People would vote +1 to indicate that they
intend to help and +0 to indicate they support the idea but won't be
contributing directly.

In practice though people often vote +1 to indicate support.

If the forum volunteers want to make sure there are enough people
wanting to support the move with action then a vote with a clear
"please only vote +1 if you will be active in the forums in some way"
might be a good idea. Although I would have thought such an activity
would be best carried out in the forums where the currently active
volunteers are. I think it is clear the PPMC will gladly host the
forums and ensure the necessary infrastructure is provided.

However, again I'm not saying *don't* have a vote, just trying to help
the project understand how best to implement the Apache Way. Whether
my words are entirely appropriate to this case is for those doing the
work to decide.

I will observe though that talking about it is wasting even more time ;-)

Ross

Ross
We have been running the forums for nearly four years, without, to my 
knowledge, any interference from the host (first Sun, later Oracle). We 
have always claimed to be independent (that is: we aren't an extension 
of the customer service dept of Sun or Oracle) and claimed that the 
developers didn't visit the forums, so that the forums aren't the right 
place for filing bug reports or feature requests (of course we would 
link to the issue tracker if we could find an associated report, or file 
an issue if the reporter finds the task too daunting, and encourage 
people to vote for it).
The most important support that we want from the Apache community is the 
assurance that the forums are welcome and that Apache is the right place 
for them.

Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Acceptance of the OpenOffice.org Proposal

[floris v]

+1
Op 18-10-2011 18:48, Dennis E. Hamilton schreef:

PPMC MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO CAST BINDING VOTES

This is the roster of the 54 established PPMC members, with their Apache User 
Names/IDs, as of midnight Monday, 2011-10-17T24:00Z

Kai Ahrens : kahrens
Florent André : florent
Eric Bachard : ericb2
Dave Barton : bmcs
Mathias Bauer : mbauer
Stephan Bergmann : sb
Raphael Bircher : rbircher
Simon Brouwer : simonbr
Andy Brown : therabi
Arthur Buijs : artietee
Jin Hua Chen : chenjinh
Jian Hong Cheng : chengjh
Alexandro Colorado : jza
Robert Burrell Donkin : rdonkin
Terry Ellison : terrye
David Fisher : wave
Wolf Halton : wolfhalton
Dennis E. Hamilton : orcmid
Don Harbison : dpharbison
Ivo Hinkelmann : ivo
Kazunari Hirano : khirano
Drew Jensen : atjensen
Christoph Jopp : cjopp
Damjan Jovanovic : damjan
Peter Junge : pj
Yegor Kozlov : yegor
Marcus Lange : marcus
Graham Lauder : yo
Steve Lee : stevelee
Wang Lei : leiw
Christian Lippka : clippka
Ian Lynch : ingotian
Yong Lin Ma : mayongl
Carl Marcum : cmarcum
David McKay : thegurkha
Ingrid von der Mehden : ingrid
Maho Nakata : maho
Frank Thomas Peters : fpe
Allen Pulsifer : apulsifer
Eike Rathke : erack
Manfred Reiter : fredao
Zoltán Reizinger : r4zoli
Phillip Rhodes : prhodes
Andrew Rist : arist
Lawrence Rosen : lrosen
Kay Schenk : kschenk
Jürgen Schmidt : jsc
Yang Shih-Ching : imacat
Jomar Silva : homembit
Kai Sommerfeld : kso
Malte Timmermann : malte
Jean Hollis Weber : jeanweber
Rob Weir : robweir
Jian Fang Zhang : zhangjf

-Original Message-
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orc...@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 09:27
To: OOo-dev Apache Incubator
Subject: [VOTE] Acceptance of the OpenOffice.org Proposal

[ ... ]


GUIDELINES

ANYONE MAY VOTE.  BINDING VOTES for determining the outcome are those cast by
any of the 54 PPMC members (to be listed in a separate message).  When the
same individual casts more than one vote, the last-dated vote during the
ballot period is taken as the final vote from that individual.  Votes made
anywhere but as replies to the ooo-dev list with this subject are not counted.

DO NOT DISCUSS THE VOTING ON THIS THREAD.  This thread is for the votes
themselves, including explanations for -1 votes.  Any other discussion related
to this ballot, including discussions with anyone about their vote, should be
on a separate threat with subject beginning [VOTE][DISCUSS].


  - Dennis E. Hamilton
tools for document interoperability,
dennis.hamil...@acm.org  gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid

Re: How voting works...

[floris v]

Op 19-10-2011 14:00, Rob Weir schreef:

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Ross Gardler
  wrote:

I'm not going to dig into all the details of how a vote is called in the ASF.

In posting this I am not asking for the current vote to be recalled,
there is no need.

I am just wanting to flag something that concerns me about how the
vote was called (and as per usual this is just advice from a mentor,
these are not rules that must be adopted).

In an ASF community everyone is entitled to an opinion. Everyone
should be encouraged to express that opinion in a formal vote, just as
much as they should be encouraged to express their opinions in day to
day discussion.


We're very concerned, as we should be, to ensure that everyone, even
non-PPMC members, can weigh in on all project discussions and
decisions, including policy and governance questions.  As we should.
I applaud that commitment to openness.

However, the proposal that we're voting on has this clause regarding
the support forums:

  "Forum governance will be discussed in a publicly readable forum.
Write access will be limited to those with at least 10 posts."

In other words,  we're agreeing to a proposal where it is not true
that "In an ASF community everyone is entitled to an opinion. Everyone
should be encouraged to express that opinion in a formal vote, just as
  much as they should be encouraged to express their opinions in day to
day discussion."


*You're forgetting that the forums aren't an almost closed mailing list like 
ooo-dev. How many people are subscribed to ooo-dev?
As of 9/20 the number of registered users of the forums is 44830 and the number 
of people with over 10 posts still exceeds 1000.
If we'd open the gates to anyone, you'd probably soon see bored kids pollute 
the discussions with the kind of crap that they now post on Wikipedia.
If you don't like the forum, I suggest that you just ignore it.

**Peter aka floris v*

**

When I brought that up in the discussion thread I was shut down by a
mentor for introducing an "overly legalistic parsing" of the proposal.
  I take that to mean I was thinking too much.   I'll stop now, because
honestly the incongruity if our words and actions is shameful and
painful to observe.

-Rob


It is true that only some members of the community have binding votes.
However, this only becomes important in the event of an absence of
community consensus.

Therefore, when calling a vote please do not word it in such a way
that implies others in the community do not have a vote that counts.
It does count. A responsible PPMC member will use their own vote to
support any appropriate objections from the community. They can only
do that if the community is encouraged to express their views
alongside everyone else..

Specifically, there is no need to define binding votes in the vote
thread, the way Apache Projects vote is well documented and, over
time, the AOOo project will gain its own guidelines. Secondly, do not
list the people who are "important" enough to have a binding vote.
Thirdly, explicitly call for all community members to express their
preferences in the vote.

In other words, make every action of the PPMC as inclusive as possible.

Finally, Denis - thank you for calling the vote.

Ross

--
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com

Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Acceptance of the OpenOffice.org Proposal

[floris v]

Op 22-10-2011 6:26, Dennis E. Hamilton schreef:

The vote to accept the proposal for governance and operation of the 
OpenOffice.org Forums ended at midnight, Friday 2011-10-21T24:00Z.

There were a total of 27 +1 votes cast.  There was one "+0" vote and no -1 
votes.

The proposal is accepted.  Implementation will now be coordinated with the OO.o 
Forum operators along with the impending 2011-10-28 shutdown of the current 
server that was learned of today.

  - Dennis E. Hamilton, for the Apache OpenOffice.org PPMC

TALLY OF VOTES CAST

+1 Dave Barton : bmcs PPMC
+1 David Fisher : wave PPMC
+1 Wolf Halton : wolfhalton PPMC
+1 Dennis E. Hamilton : orcmid PPMC
+1 Don Harbison : dpharbison PPMC
+1 Kazunari Hirano : khirano PPMC
+1 Christoph Jopp : cjopp PPMC
+1 Marcus Lange : marcus PPMC
+1 Ian Lynch : ingotian PPMC
+1 Carl Marcum : cmarcum PPMC
+1 David McKay : thegurkha PPMC
+1 Manfred Reiter : fredao PPMC
+1 Zoltán Reizinger : r4zoli PPMC
+1 Andrew Rist : arist PPMC
+1 Kay Schenk : kschenk PPMC
+1 Jürgen Schmidt : jsc PPMC
+1 Yang Shih-Ching : imacat PPMC
+1 Jomar Silva : homembit PPMC
+0 Rob Weir : robweir PPMC

+1 Shane Curcuru : curcuru mentor
+1 T.J. Frazier :  ooo-dev
+1 Ross Gardler :  mentor
+1 Christian Grobmeier : grobmeier mentor
+1 Larry Gusaas :  ooo-dev
+1 Rory O'Farrell :  forums
+1 Andrea  Pescetti :  forums
+1 RGB ES :  forums
+1 Andreas Säger :   forums

   +27 TOTAL

-Original Message-
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orc...@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 09:27
To: OOo-dev Apache Incubator
Subject: [VOTE] Acceptance of the OpenOffice.org Proposal

In reply to this message on ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org, vote for the
acceptance of the proposal for governance and operation of the OpenOffice.org
Forums within the Apache OpenOffice.org Podling.  The Proposal text is at the
October 12 version of wiki page
<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Changes+integrate+the+forums+into+the+AOOo+project>.

The balloting will end midnight Friday, 2011-10-21T24:00Z, over 72 hours from
now.

A majority of approvals over disapprovals constitutes acceptance of the
proposal.

[  ] +1 approve
[  ]  0 abstain
[  ] -1 disapprove, for the following reasons:


GUIDELINES

ANYONE MAY VOTE.  BINDING VOTES for determining the outcome are those cast by
any of the 54 PPMC members (to be listed in a separate message).  When the
same individual casts more than one vote, the last-dated vote during the
ballot period is taken as the final vote from that individual.  Votes made
anywhere but as replies to the ooo-dev list with this subject are not counted.

DO NOT DISCUSS THE VOTING ON THIS THREAD.  This thread is for the votes
themselves, including explanations for -1 votes.  Any other discussion related
to this ballot, including discussions with anyone about their vote, should be
on a separate threat with subject beginning [VOTE][DISCUSS].


  - Dennis E. Hamilton
tools for document interoperability,<http://nfoWorks.org/>
dennis.hamil...@acm.org  gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid


Heck, I also voted +1, 10/18, but apparently also in the wrong list - 
VOTE DISCUSS

Sorry about that.
By the way, as the option +0 wasn't included, that vote is invalid, 
isn't it?


Peter Roelofsen aka floris v

Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Acceptance of the OpenOffice.org Proposal

[floris v]

Op 22-10-2011 9:24, Christian Grobmeier schreef:

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 9:07 AM, floris v  wrote:

Op 22-10-2011 6:26, Dennis E. Hamilton schreef:

Peter,


Heck, I also voted +1, 10/18, but apparently also in the wrong list - VOTE
DISCUSS
Sorry about that.
By the way, as the option +0 wasn't included, that vote is invalid, isn't
it?

No, it is valid.

http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html

Reason 1: "Votes on procedural issues follow the common format of
majority rule unless otherwise stated"
Reason 2: "+0: 'I don't feel strongly about it, but I'm okay with this.'

Therefore you can consider this decision passed and the the forums is
very much welcome many people! Congratulations!

Cheers
Christian
I only meant the +0 vote, not the others. In Dutch elections all votes 
are invalid that have scribblings on them, even if that'd be something 
like "Thank God we have democracy" or more than 1 name ticked. Of 
course, such invalid votes don't invalidate the election, they simply 
don't count towards the result.
So we have 29 +1 votes, two of them invalid because in the wrong list, 
and invalid +0 because that wasn't included in the original set of options.

Cheers,
Peter

Re: [DISCUSS] Migration of Forums Recruitment of Operators

[floris v]

Op 23-10-2011 15:15, RGB ES schreef:

2011/10/23 Rob Weir


My main concern is that we don't have any forum that has no one there
helping users, removing spam, etc.  When will we know if that is the
case?



I did not understand that, sorry. Could you explain which your concern is?
And about volunteers, while many voted against the move I did not heard
anyone telling he or she will left the forums because the move is finally
accepted. You may see that as an example that our "meritocracy" is very
"democratic", with volunteers following the decision from the majority...
Many volunteers will not apply to commiter status (and this maybe will raise
some questions about current and future admins) and are not interested on
being part of the PPMC, but AFAIK all of us will continue doing what we
always did: help users.

Cheers
Ricardo

There seems to be a problem with the staff at the Dutch language forum. 
Founding admin henke54 has already announced that he will  resign, I'm 
the only other Dutch speaking admin and will resign as well. The 
remaining active moderators (RPG and Johan) and volunteers (Eremmel, who 
visits the forum regularly but hasn't posted on the issue) aren't 
interested in signing the iCLA or becoming committers. We will all stay 
to help users, we just don't want the extra work or feel we're not 
suited for the job.


Peter aka floris v

some errors in the interface of Apache OpenOffice

[floris v]

Please note the following:
- The title bar (Windows version) still reads OpenOffice.org, and in the 
Tools - Options dialog box the program is still called OpenOffice.org.
- The Dutch interface contains an error in the Tools - Options - Writer 
dialog box. The item _Formatting Aids_ has for many versions been 
translated as _Linguïstiek_ instead of _Opmaakhulp_. (Corrected in 
LibreOffice, but there incorrectly spelled with a space: _Opmaak hulp_.)


floris v

Re: [ask for review]: Contribute hints and tips for three editors

[floris v]

The hints for pages styles/headers/footers need much reworking, they 
should be exhaustive. See this tutorial for some tips: 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=44607

Install developer build side by side with regular version instead of overwriting it

[floris v]

Hello,

I just downloaded and installed the latest developer snapshot/build and 
found that it replaces the stable version. Please return to the good 
tradition of installing the dev snapshot parallel with the stable 
version so that people using AOO for work can also test developer builds.


floris v