[PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi all, I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as us...@ja.openoffice.org, annou...@ja.openoffice.org, d...@ja.openoffice.org, disc...@ja.openoffice.org, documentat...@ja.openoffice.org, market...@ja.openoffice.org, q...@ja.openoffice.org, transl...@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I would like to invite subscribers on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org. We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list, ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many things related to Apache OpenOffice.org. 1) To understand the proposal http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja 2) To understand the status http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html 3) To read and navigate pages on the site http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 5) To learn how to use wikis https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/ https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/ http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/ 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list. 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and after AOOo release. 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read English. We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese" everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project. ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people. I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org 1. Kazunari Hirano 2. Maho Nakata If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. Thanks, khirano
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
+1 from Nakata Maho, since it's very important to have a channel in each language. Thanks, Nakata Maho 2011/9/8 Kazunari Hirano : > Hi all, > > I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > > As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as > us...@ja.openoffice.org, annou...@ja.openoffice.org, > d...@ja.openoffice.org, disc...@ja.openoffice.org, > documentat...@ja.openoffice.org, market...@ja.openoffice.org, > q...@ja.openoffice.org, transl...@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I > would like to invite subscribers > on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org. > > We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read > English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list, > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many > things related to Apache OpenOffice.org. > 1) To understand the proposal > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja > 2) To understand the status > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html > 3) To read and navigate pages on the site > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ > 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache > http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 > 5) To learn how to use wikis > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/ > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/ > http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/ > 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list. > 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and > after AOOo release. > 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo > > Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with > Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo > developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org > project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better > "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read > English. > > We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese" > everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature > requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product > and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org > users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand > what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project. > > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good > communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and > working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people. > > I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > 1. Kazunari Hirano > 2. Maho Nakata > > If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then > I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. > > Thanks, > khirano >
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Kazunari Hirano wrote: > Hi all, > > I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > > As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as > us...@ja.openoffice.org, annou...@ja.openoffice.org, > d...@ja.openoffice.org, disc...@ja.openoffice.org, > documentat...@ja.openoffice.org, market...@ja.openoffice.org, > q...@ja.openoffice.org, transl...@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I > would like to invite subscribers > on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org. > Have you considered the name: ooo-general-jp.incubator.apache.org? Some other Apache lists have a "general" list as well. I think the idea is to use that for lists that cover more than just dev discussions. Since you want the jp list to cover users, doc, marketing, translate, etc., as well as dev, then "general" might be a good pattern to adopt. What do you think? In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the name "ooo-general-jp". -Rob > We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read > English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list, > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many > things related to Apache OpenOffice.org. > 1) To understand the proposal > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja > 2) To understand the status > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html > 3) To read and navigate pages on the site > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ > 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache > http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 > 5) To learn how to use wikis > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/ > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/ > http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/ > 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list. > 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and > after AOOo release. > 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo > > Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with > Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo > developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org > project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better > "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read > English. > > We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese" > everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature > requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product > and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org > users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand > what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project. > > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good > communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and > working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people. > > I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > 1. Kazunari Hirano > 2. Maho Nakata > > If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then > I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. > > Thanks, > khirano >
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi Rob, On Thursday, 2011-09-08 08:01:00 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: > In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the > name "ooo-general-jp". As this is for Japanese and not Japan it should be ooo-general-ja instead. Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi Rob and all, On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Rob Weir wrote: > Have you considered the name: ooo-general-jp.incubator.apache.org? No, I have. > What do you think? Good idea. > In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the > name "ooo-general-jp". "jp" means Japan, the country name. So it should be "ooo-general-ja" "ja" means Japanese, the language name. I think other language speaking people may want to have a similar mailing list in their language within the AOOo incubator project.. So I would like to learn what they think. All, Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"? (xx is ISO language code) Thanks, khirano
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Am 09/08/2011 10:09 AM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano: [...] I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org 1. Kazunari Hirano 2. Maho Nakata If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. Thanks, khirano Great, lets start with a mailing list for Japanese-speaking people. This community was strong in the past and I doubt that it will change now. Maybe there is something to learn before we expand the number of non-English lists. Marcus
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Am 09/08/2011 02:26 PM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano: Hi Rob and all, On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Rob Weir wrote: Have you considered the name: ooo-general-jp.incubator.apache.org? No, I have. What do you think? Good idea. In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the name "ooo-general-jp". "jp" means Japan, the country name. So it should be "ooo-general-ja" "ja" means Japanese, the language name. I think other language speaking people may want to have a similar mailing list in their language within the AOOo incubator project.. So I would like to learn what they think. All, Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"? (xx is ISO language code) Thanks, khirano +1 for "ooo-general-ja". As you want to open the list not only for dev's but for users, marketing people, QA, etc. I expect a bunsh of very different subscribers. So, let's make this visible with the name of the mailing list. Marcus
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi Kazunari-san, all 2011/9/8 Marcus (OOo) > Am 09/08/2011 02:26 PM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano: > >> >> [...] > >> Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or >> "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"? >> (xx is ISO language code) >> >> Thanks, >> khirano >> > > +1 for "ooo-general-ja". > > As you want to open the list not only for dev's but for users, marketing > people, QA, etc. I expect a bunsh of very different subscribers. So, let's > make this visible with the name of the mailing list. > > Marcus > if you mix everything like user questions and answers, marketing, QA et cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users. But it seems to be the way it is. so ... I wish you all the best. Keen to hear from your experiment ;-) follows a message only to german speakers: @ an alle deutschsprachigen hier: Ich gehe jetzt ins off, weil ich nicht mehr bereit, diese endlosen Diskussion über *eine* zusätzliche Mailingliste zu führen. Genau diese Diskussionen hatten wir vor 10 Jahren vor dem 1. Geburtstag von OOo. Ja, ich weiss, die Zeiten haben sich geändert. Aber man muss auch wissen, ob man viele Menschen, die bereit und willens sind, OOo weiterhin in lokalen Märkten zu platzieren, ausschließt, nur weil sie nicht bereit oder willens sind in einer anderen Sprache als ihrer Muttersprache zu organisieren. Nein, ich halte diese Haltung nicht für eine Form des Sprach-Kolonialismus, aber ich halte es eine Form von "Kontrollitis" ... mag sein, dass es sein muss ... mag sein, dass es nicht sein muss. Ich bin bereit anzuerkennen, was geht und was nicht geht. Sollte irgendwann einmal die Möglichkeit bestehen auch bei AOOo wenigsten zwei Listen für eine Sprache bereit zu stellen ... eine für die users und eine für die übrigen Dinge, dann kann man mich gerne wieder ansprechen. -- ## Manfred Reiter
RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
+1 especially with "ja" (OK on "general" unless it is really intended to be a Japanese Language Developer list, something that would need further clarification) -Original Message- From: Eike Rathke [mailto:o...@erack.de] Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 05:18 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org Hi Rob, On Thursday, 2011-09-08 08:01:00 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: > In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the > name "ooo-general-jp". As this is for Japanese and not Japan it should be ooo-general-ja instead. Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi Manfred, The German I learned in school 35 years ago is enough for me to know that it would be polite if you would provide a rough translation. As far as foreign language MLs here for DE - has there been a proposal? Is this what you are discussing? Danke, Dave On Sep 8, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote: > Hi Kazunari-san, all > > 2011/9/8 Marcus (OOo) > >> Am 09/08/2011 02:26 PM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano: >> >>> >>> > [...] > > >> >>> Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or >>> "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"? >>> (xx is ISO language code) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> khirano >>> >> >> +1 for "ooo-general-ja". >> >> As you want to open the list not only for dev's but for users, marketing >> people, QA, etc. I expect a bunsh of very different subscribers. So, let's >> make this visible with the name of the mailing list. >> >> Marcus >> > > if you mix everything like user questions and answers, marketing, QA et > cetra > on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users. > > But it seems to be the way it is. > so ... I wish you all the best. > > Keen to hear from your experiment ;-) > > > follows a message only to german speakers: > @ an alle deutschsprachigen hier: > Ich gehe jetzt ins off, weil ich nicht mehr bereit, diese endlosen > Diskussion über *eine* zusätzliche Mailingliste zu führen. Genau diese > Diskussionen hatten wir vor 10 Jahren vor dem 1. Geburtstag von OOo. > > Ja, ich weiss, die Zeiten haben sich geändert. > > Aber man muss auch wissen, ob man viele Menschen, die bereit > und willens sind, OOo weiterhin in lokalen Märkten zu platzieren, > ausschließt, nur weil sie nicht bereit oder willens sind in einer > anderen Sprache als ihrer Muttersprache zu organisieren. > > Nein, ich halte diese Haltung nicht für eine Form des > Sprach-Kolonialismus, aber ich halte es eine Form von > "Kontrollitis" ... mag sein, dass es sein muss ... mag sein, > dass es nicht sein muss. > > Ich bin bereit anzuerkennen, was geht und was nicht geht. > Sollte irgendwann einmal die Möglichkeit bestehen auch > bei AOOo wenigsten zwei Listen für eine Sprache bereit > zu stellen ... eine für die users und eine für die übrigen > Dinge, dann kann man mich gerne wieder ansprechen. > > -- > ## Manfred Reiter
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi Dave, thank you very much for asking ;-) Am 8. September 2011 19:59 schrieb Dave Fisher : > Hi Manfred, > > The German I learned in school 35 years ago is enough for me to know that it > would be polite if you would provide a rough translation. > it was really addressed to the german speaking people here on the list ;-) sorry for that ... > As far as foreign language MLs here for DE - has there been a proposal? Is > this what you are discussing? you will get a private mail ;-) once more sorry to post in a different language on an englisch spoken ML > > Danke, :-) bitte schön ;-) M.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
On Sep 8, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote: > Hi Kazunari-san, all > > 2011/9/8 Marcus (OOo) > >> Am 09/08/2011 02:26 PM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano: >> >>> >>> > [...] > > >> >>> Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or >>> "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"? >>> (xx is ISO language code) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> khirano >>> >> >> +1 for "ooo-general-ja". >> >> As you want to open the list not only for dev's but for users, marketing >> people, QA, etc. I expect a bunsh of very different subscribers. So, let's >> make this visible with the name of the mailing list. >> >> Marcus >> > > if you mix everything like user questions and answers, marketing, QA et > cetra > on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users. > > But it seems to be the way it is. > so ... I wish you all the best. I understand your concerns about mixing marketing with users. What are the other categories besides marketing that users should be shielded from? Translation? We've been mentored to only have additional lists for good reason and with careful consideration of the community and our oversight responsibilities to the ASF. The dev / users set of lists is a very usual pattern at Apache. Having "what happens" be in English is one thing, but it is a disadvantage for much of the world. I know that I would have a difficult time writing German email, but I would have a small chance after sufficient immersion. I would be at a complete loss in a Chinese or Brazilian ML. If there are ooo-users-de and ooo-dev-de MLs then the purpose of ooo-users-de is clear while ooo-dev-de would be a catch all for German language discussions about issues of concern to the German speaking community - marketing, translation, and documentation. Raphael did a test migration de.openoffice.org and it clearly will need updates. To me that would be better done in German. So, I am for NL dev lists. We'll just need to find a good way to do oversight in English. Considering that there are a minimum of 7 Germans or Swiss on http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/people.html. There are 15 people from English speaking countries listed. There are 6 Chinese (including Taiwan) who are beginning to appear. How would the whole PPMC provide governance for NL projects with a necessary ooo-dev-$LANG ML? Clearly we'll have to have a critical mass of PPMC to have a list. Should we have an experiment with German? Regards, Dave > > Keen to hear from your experiment ;-) > > > follows a message only to german speakers: > @ an alle deutschsprachigen hier: > Ich gehe jetzt ins off, weil ich nicht mehr bereit, diese endlosen > Diskussion über *eine* zusätzliche Mailingliste zu führen. Genau diese > Diskussionen hatten wir vor 10 Jahren vor dem 1. Geburtstag von OOo. > > Ja, ich weiss, die Zeiten haben sich geändert. > > Aber man muss auch wissen, ob man viele Menschen, die bereit > und willens sind, OOo weiterhin in lokalen Märkten zu platzieren, > ausschließt, nur weil sie nicht bereit oder willens sind in einer > anderen Sprache als ihrer Muttersprache zu organisieren. > > Nein, ich halte diese Haltung nicht für eine Form des > Sprach-Kolonialismus, aber ich halte es eine Form von > "Kontrollitis" ... mag sein, dass es sein muss ... mag sein, > dass es nicht sein muss. > > Ich bin bereit anzuerkennen, was geht und was nicht geht. > Sollte irgendwann einmal die Möglichkeit bestehen auch > bei AOOo wenigsten zwei Listen für eine Sprache bereit > zu stellen ... eine für die users und eine für die übrigen > Dinge, dann kann man mich gerne wieder ansprechen. > > -- > ## Manfred Reiter
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hello, Dave Fisher schrieb: > > if you mix everything like user questions and answers, > marketing, QA > > et cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users. > > > > But it seems to be the way it is. > > so ... I wish you all the best. > > I understand your concerns about mixing marketing with users. > What are the other categories besides marketing that users > should be shielded from? Translation? We've been mentored to > only have additional lists for good reason and with careful > consideration of the community and our oversight > responsibilities to the ASF. It is very, very simple. The list us...@de.openoffice.org is a list ONLY for german-speaking users. This users a _not Community-members_ but only users and this users cannot write questions in english. The list us...@de.openoffice.org is a support-list for users, not a list to coordinate the activity of the project-members. OK, we can replace us...@de.openoffice.org by a german forum but the users just like us...@de.openoffice.org, and it would be better to have a German-language forum AND a german USERS-list. Greetings Jörg -- www.calc-info.de
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi Manfred and all, 2011/9/9 Manfred A. Reiter : > If you mix everything like user questions and answers, marketing, QA et > cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users. I know :) I will invite Japanese people on x...@ja.openoffice.org lists to ooo-general-ja@incubator,apache.org We don't know how many will come and subscribe to the list. We don't know how many new AOOo users will come and subscribe to the list. If many AOOo newbies come to the list, we may have to ask them to put [user] tag to Subject when they post their question to the list. If many marketers come, we ask them to put [marketing] tag. If many translators come, we ask them to put [translation] tag. They will be in Japanese, [ユーザー] [マーケティング] [翻訳] :) Or we may think about creation of ooo-user-ja at incubator.apache.org, ooo-marketing-ja at incubator.apache.org and/or ooo-translation-ja at incubator.apache.org and so on, and make proposals to ooo-dev at incubator.apache.org. We would like to discuss these things on the list in Japanese. It is natural, we, Japanese, can think quick in Japanese, can communicate smoothly in Japanese, can have quality discussion in Japanese, then we can make a good feedback, a good proposal and a good report to ooo-dev at incubator.apache.org. > But it seems to be the way it is. > so ... I wish you all the best. Thanks. > Keen to hear from your experiment ;-) Right. Experiment. :) We do it, and we will find what works and what doesn't work. :) Thanks, khirano
Re:[PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that no decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All decisions must be made here. That being said, decisions that only affect those in Japan probably only need to be reported here. Ross On Sep 8, 2011 9:09 AM, "Kazunari Hirano" wrote: > Hi all, > > I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > > As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as > us...@ja.openoffice.org, annou...@ja.openoffice.org, > d...@ja.openoffice.org, disc...@ja.openoffice.org, > documentat...@ja.openoffice.org, market...@ja.openoffice.org, > q...@ja.openoffice.org, transl...@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I > would like to invite subscribers > on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org. > > We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read > English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list, > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many > things related to Apache OpenOffice.org. > 1) To understand the proposal > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja > 2) To understand the status > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html > 3) To read and navigate pages on the site > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ > 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache > http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 > 5) To learn how to use wikis > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/ > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/ > http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/ > 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list. > 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and > after AOOo release. > 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo > > Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with > Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo > developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org > project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better > "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read > English. > > We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese" > everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature > requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product > and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org > users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand > what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project. > > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good > communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and > working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people. > > I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > 1. Kazunari Hirano > 2. Maho Nakata > > If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then > I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. > > Thanks, > khirano
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler wrote: > With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that no > decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All > decisions must be made here. > Hi Ross, just to clarify what you mean by project in general. I assume you mean things like direction of the code development and intellectual property, rather than things like language translations, localisation and marketing? So eg they could make a decision to have a marketing conference in Japan or to correct say a translation error in a dictionary. In the latter case it would still require a committer to commit and have accepted the revision submitted to the main project. I'm just trying to understand the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply. That being said, decisions that only affect those in Japan probably only > need to be reported here. > > Ross > On Sep 8, 2011 9:09 AM, "Kazunari Hirano" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > > > > As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as > > us...@ja.openoffice.org, annou...@ja.openoffice.org, > > d...@ja.openoffice.org, disc...@ja.openoffice.org, > > documentat...@ja.openoffice.org, market...@ja.openoffice.org, > > q...@ja.openoffice.org, transl...@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I > > would like to invite subscribers > > on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org. > > > > We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read > > English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list, > > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many > > things related to Apache OpenOffice.org. > > 1) To understand the proposal > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja > > 2) To understand the status > > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html > > 3) To read and navigate pages on the site > > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ > > 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache > > http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 > > 5) To learn how to use wikis > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/ > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/ > > http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/ > > 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list. > > 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and > > after AOOo release. > > 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo > > > > Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with > > Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo > > developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org > > project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better > > "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read > > English. > > > > We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese" > > everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature > > requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product > > and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org > > users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand > > what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project. > > > > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good > > communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and > > working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people. > > > > I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > > 1. Kazunari Hirano > > 2. Maho Nakata > > > > If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then > > I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. > > > > Thanks, > > khirano > -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
On 12 September 2011 10:27, Ian Lynch wrote: > On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler wrote: > >> With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that no >> decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All >> decisions must be made here. >> > > Hi Ross, just to clarify what you mean by project in general. I assume you > mean things like direction of the code development and intellectual > property, rather than things like language translations, localisation and > marketing? Yes, that is correct. > So eg they could make a decision to have a marketing conference > in Japan or to correct say a translation error in a dictionary. In the > latter case it would still require a committer to commit and have accepted > the revision submitted to the main project. I'm just trying to understand > the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply. There is no fixed rule here. In practice no other ASF project has a "dev" list in any language other than English as the accepted guideline is that only English is allowed. Personally I don't think this is workable in OOo. What we need to do is, as you say "understand the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply". As a starting point I would say that if a decision on the jp list affects those in other countries (any other country) then that decision needs to be made on the core English language list. Therefore the jp list would bring a proposal here. Naturally this means the jp list needs to be managed by people willing and able to communicate the jp intentions in English. I propose that the PPMC will hold those individuals accountable as well as recognising them for their work. If a decision affects only the JP community then there is no need to make a proposal here, but we should expect to be informed of any important activities. Of course the JP community will still have to respect things like the trademark policy of the foundation. These items should therefore also be handled on the English list (no objection to discussing in Japanese first and making recommendations to this list). [ASIDE] PPMC members should note that umbrella projects are not allowed in the ASF. I'll not go into detail here at this time, I'll do that soon in another thread. However, I just want to flag that this is the first step in creating an umbrella project out of OOo. However, at this point I think it is best to proceed as proposed in this thread, I suspect this will be the first of many such requirements.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Ross Gardler wrote: > On 12 September 2011 10:27, Ian Lynch wrote: >> On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler wrote: >> >>> With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that no >>> decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All >>> decisions must be made here. >>> >> >> Hi Ross, just to clarify what you mean by project in general. I assume you >> mean things like direction of the code development and intellectual >> property, rather than things like language translations, localisation and >> marketing? > > Yes, that is correct. > >> So eg they could make a decision to have a marketing conference >> in Japan or to correct say a translation error in a dictionary. In the >> latter case it would still require a committer to commit and have accepted >> the revision submitted to the main project. I'm just trying to understand >> the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply. > > There is no fixed rule here. In practice no other ASF project has a > "dev" list in any language other than English as the accepted > guideline is that only English is allowed. Personally I don't think > this is workable in OOo. > > What we need to do is, as you say "understand the scope to the types > of restrictions that are likely to apply". As a starting point I would > say that if a decision on the jp list affects those in other countries > (any other country) then that decision needs to be made on the core > English language list. Therefore the jp list would bring a proposal > here. I'd like to challenge the concept that there are decisions that might be made that effect "only" interests in a single country. I don't think there is such thing. Certainly there might be some members of this project who are interested in only the Japanese version, or only the English version or only the French version of AOOo. But there are also many others -- and I count myself as one of them -- who are interested in creating a localized office suite that can be deployed to larger multinational corporations and other institutions. So my interests cut across all languages. I wouldn't assume that just because I don't speak Japanese that I don't have a strong interest in the success of the Japanese version of AOOo, or that I cannot tap into Japanese language expertise to help evaluate a proposal. In other words the stakeholders for AOOo are more than just individual end-users who download and install the product. The stakeholders also include downstream consumers, distributors, hardware vendors who bundle, etc. Some of these interests are represented on the PPMC. And their interests often transcend a single language. -Rob
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
On 12 September 2011 12:52, Rob Weir wrote: > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Ross Gardler > wrote: > > On 12 September 2011 10:27, Ian Lynch wrote: > >> On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler > wrote: > >> > >>> With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that > no > >>> decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All > >>> decisions must be made here. > >>> > >> > >> Hi Ross, just to clarify what you mean by project in general. I assume > you > >> mean things like direction of the code development and intellectual > >> property, rather than things like language translations, localisation > and > >> marketing? > > > > Yes, that is correct. > > > >> So eg they could make a decision to have a marketing conference > >> in Japan or to correct say a translation error in a dictionary. In the > >> latter case it would still require a committer to commit and have > accepted > >> the revision submitted to the main project. I'm just trying to > understand > >> the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply. > > > > There is no fixed rule here. In practice no other ASF project has a > > "dev" list in any language other than English as the accepted > > guideline is that only English is allowed. Personally I don't think > > this is workable in OOo. > > > > What we need to do is, as you say "understand the scope to the types > > of restrictions that are likely to apply". As a starting point I would > > say that if a decision on the jp list affects those in other countries > > (any other country) then that decision needs to be made on the core > > English language list. Therefore the jp list would bring a proposal > > here. > > > > I'd like to challenge the concept that there are decisions that might > be made that effect "only" interests in a single country. Distinction between country and language? US English and UK English have some differences and the countries are very distinct but in OOo there was never a separation in terms of native languages. > I don't > think there is such thing. Certainly there might be some members of > this project who are interested in only the Japanese version, or only > the English version or only the French version of AOOo. But there are > also many others -- and I count myself as one of them -- who are > interested in creating a localized office suite that can be deployed > to larger multinational corporations and other institutions. So my > interests cut across all languages. I wouldn't assume that just > because I don't speak Japanese that I don't have a strong interest in > the success of the Japanese version of AOOo, or that I cannot tap into > Japanese language expertise to help evaluate a proposal. > This is partly my reason for posting to the other thread Ross started. Let's try and work out some sort of agreed code of practice that is generic rather than this specifically Japanese issue. If the NL projects agreed that builds always get made and released through the ASF central infrastructure would that solve most of the issues? Is it practically feasible? In other words the stakeholders for AOOo are more than just individual > end-users who download and install the product. The stakeholders also > include downstream consumers, distributors, hardware vendors who > bundle, etc. Some of these interests are represented on the PPMC. > And their interests often transcend a single language. > > > -Rob > -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
On 12 September 2011 12:52, Rob Weir wrote: > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Ross Gardler > wrote: >> On 12 September 2011 10:27, Ian Lynch wrote: >>> On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler wrote: ... >> What we need to do is, as you say "understand the scope to the types >> of restrictions that are likely to apply". As a starting point I would >> say that if a decision on the jp list affects those in other countries >> (any other country) then that decision needs to be made on the core >> English language list. Therefore the jp list would bring a proposal >> here. > > > > I'd like to challenge the concept that there are decisions that might > be made that effect "only" interests in a single country. I don't > think there is such thing. If you are talking about decisions that affect the code then I agree. However, there might be decisions such as "do we have mugs or t-shirts as a giveaway at the hacker session we are holding at the Japanese user conference next month" or "is the correct translation of '"Print to cloud " ... or ..." There are always exceptions to every rule and we don't need to slavishly apply every rule to every circumstance. Our goal should be to ensure that the people taking ownership of "other" lists understand where the boundaries lie and take responsibility for ensuring those boundaries are respected. Ross
[DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
I am changing the topic of this branch of the discussion. I am worried about some problems with mailing lists and migration of OpenOffice.org. If the problems are allowed, it should be on purpose. I suggest discussing those problems before the situation is made worse. I will move this topic to the OOOUSER wiki on the weekend. PERSONAL CONCERN: 1. The current list arrangement is technically superior to what is proposed for replacement. 2. Shutting down the resources of a community and expecting that community to migrate itself onto an alternative will deteriorate if not completely lose the participation of that community. TO CONSIDER: Preservation of the existing mailing lists and their services; the means for doing so. Migration of the existing mailing list services and content onto Apache hosting along with OpenOffice.org hosting. Restoration of moderation and support of the lists themselves. Within the existing structure and subscriber community of each NL group: simplification, consolidation, or retirement (with preservation) of existing lists that are redundant, inactive, or too specialized to sustain. Adjustment of the operational support to satisfy ASF requirements for oversight and accountability. Transfer of lists to different services and operation only when loss of functionality and community disruption is minimized. Automatic continuation of the established community and subscriptions on any migration onto different list systems. Involvement and engagement of the existing NL group community in each step of the way. Minimize avoidable disaffection. - Dennis -Original Message- From: joesc...@web.de [mailto:joesc...@web.de] Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 01:55 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org Hello, Dave Fisher schrieb: > > if you mix everything like user questions and answers, > marketing, QA > > et cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users. > > > > But it seems to be the way it is. > > so ... I wish you all the best. > > I understand your concerns about mixing marketing with users. > What are the other categories besides marketing that users > should be shielded from? Translation? We've been mentored to > only have additional lists for good reason and with careful > consideration of the community and our oversight > responsibilities to the ASF. It is very, very simple. The list us...@de.openoffice.org is a list ONLY for german-speaking users. This users a _not Community-members_ but only users and this users cannot write questions in english. The list us...@de.openoffice.org is a support-list for users, not a list to coordinate the activity of the project-members. OK, we can replace us...@de.openoffice.org by a german forum but the users just like us...@de.openoffice.org, and it would be better to have a German-language forum AND a german USERS-list. Greetings Jörg -- www.calc-info.de
Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > I am changing the topic of this branch of the discussion. > > I am worried about some problems with mailing lists and migration of > OpenOffice.org. If the problems are allowed, it should be on purpose. > > I suggest discussing those problems before the situation is made worse. I > will move this topic to the OOOUSER wiki on the weekend. > > PERSONAL CONCERN: > > 1. The current list arrangement is technically superior to what is proposed > for replacement. > Could be be more specific about what you think is technically superior about the existing approach? And by that I assume you mean the 332 existing OOo mailing lists? > 2. Shutting down the resources of a community and expecting that community > to migrate itself onto an alternative will deteriorate if not completely lose > the participation of that community. > Is this really true? Have you looked at recent traffic on ooo-dev@i.a.o versus dev@oo.o, for example? And was your dire prediction true of LibreOffice? I don't think so. Certainly there is a tipping point, when a critical mass of participants move over from one list to another. That takes time. This is encouraged by giving a consistent message about the migration, something we've failed to do so far. For example, even after we agreed to create ooo-users, I see you talking about this, on that list and elsewhere, as a mistake. That is not helping. -Rob > TO CONSIDER: > > Preservation of the existing mailing lists and their services; the means for > doing so. > > Migration of the existing mailing list services and content onto Apache > hosting along with OpenOffice.org hosting. > > Restoration of moderation and support of the lists themselves. > > Within the existing structure and subscriber community of each NL group: > simplification, consolidation, or retirement (with preservation) of existing > lists that are redundant, inactive, or too specialized to sustain. > > Adjustment of the operational support to satisfy ASF requirements for > oversight and accountability. > > Transfer of lists to different services and operation only when loss of > functionality and community disruption is minimized. > > Automatic continuation of the established community and subscriptions on any > migration onto different list systems. > > Involvement and engagement of the existing NL group community in each step of > the way. Minimize avoidable disaffection. > > - Dennis > > -Original Message- > From: joesc...@web.de [mailto:joesc...@web.de] > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 01:55 > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > > Hello, > > Dave Fisher schrieb: >> > if you mix everything like user questions and answers, >> marketing, QA >> > et cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users. >> > >> > But it seems to be the way it is. >> > so ... I wish you all the best. >> >> I understand your concerns about mixing marketing with users. >> What are the other categories besides marketing that users >> should be shielded from? Translation? We've been mentored to >> only have additional lists for good reason and with careful >> consideration of the community and our oversight >> responsibilities to the ASF. > > It is very, very simple. > > The list us...@de.openoffice.org is a list ONLY for german-speaking users. > This > users a _not Community-members_ but only users and this users cannot write > questions in english. > The list us...@de.openoffice.org is a support-list for users, not a list to > coordinate the activity of the project-members. > > OK, we can replace us...@de.openoffice.org by a german forum but the users > just > like us...@de.openoffice.org, and it would be better to have a German-language > forum AND a german USERS-list. > > > > Greetings > Jörg > > -- > www.calc-info.de > > >
RE: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
Comments in-line -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 09:59 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org) On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > I am changing the topic of this branch of the discussion. > > I am worried about some problems with mailing lists and migration of > OpenOffice.org. If the problems are allowed, it should be on purpose. > > I suggest discussing those problems before the situation is made worse. I > will move this topic to the OOOUSER wiki on the weekend. > > PERSONAL CONCERN: > > 1. The current list arrangement is technically superior to what is proposed > for replacement. > Could be be more specific about what you think is technically superior about the existing approach? And by that I assume you mean the 332 existing OOo mailing lists? I will do that on the wiki page where this kind of enumeration can be laid out and revised better. I already suggest culling, below, but starting there, not by a forced-fit here. > 2. Shutting down the resources of a community and expecting that community > to migrate itself onto an alternative will deteriorate if not completely lose > the participation of that community. > Is this really true? Have you looked at recent traffic on ooo-dev@i.a.o versus dev@oo.o, for example? Yes, I have been looking at the content too. That concerns me more. And was your dire prediction true of LibreOffice? I don't think so. I don't think the situation is comparable. I also note that LibreOffice has a small number of mailing lists and I believe there are only mailing lists. A lot of work is done on IRC, at least among developers. Certainly there is a tipping point, when a critical mass of participants move over from one list to another. That takes time. This is encouraged by giving a consistent message about the migration, something we've failed to do so far. For example, even after we agreed to create ooo-users, I see you talking about this, on that list and elsewhere, as a mistake. That is not helping. No comment -Rob [ ... ]
Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
Thanks Dennis! I agree that we rushed into creating mailing lists to replace OOo lists without a co-ordinated set of changes to the existing OOo site so that people will be pointed to the new lists. We tried, but did not take the time to discuss and refine the message that was written to the users. There were no 72 hour waits (or if there were it was not clear) - there was chaos on ooo-dev about Forums that obscured any discussion of MLs. Not to single anyone out, but I was surprised at the tone of the discussion around the announcements in users@ooo. It was not the place to echo discussions already on ooo-dev. That discussions about GMANE mangling even occurred there was a sign of not enough discussion prior to making the announcement. That should have been settled first. What aggregators we register MLs with needs to be part of the podling's policy. We are in the incubator - chicken, egg, better egg, better chicken, best egg, best chicken :-) But with users, you don't really get do overs. I think we need to be careful experimenting with users. We need to address the "dev" / "users" division for each NL! +1 on forming a plan, policies and then executing. Thanks again Dennis. Regards, Dave On Sep 9, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > Comments in-line > > -Original Message- > From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 09:59 > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org) > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton > wrote: >> I am changing the topic of this branch of the discussion. >> >> I am worried about some problems with mailing lists and migration of >> OpenOffice.org. If the problems are allowed, it should be on purpose. >> >> I suggest discussing those problems before the situation is made worse. I >> will move this topic to the OOOUSER wiki on the weekend. >> >> PERSONAL CONCERN: >> >> 1. The current list arrangement is technically superior to what is proposed >> for replacement. >> > > Could be be more specific about what you think is technically superior > about the existing approach? And by that I assume you mean the 332 > existing OOo mailing lists? > > > I will do that on the wiki page where this kind of enumeration can be laid > out and revised better. I already suggest culling, below, but starting > there, not by a forced-fit here. > > >> 2. Shutting down the resources of a community and expecting that community >> to migrate itself onto an alternative will deteriorate if not completely >> lose the participation of that community. >> > > Is this really true? Have you looked at recent traffic on > ooo-dev@i.a.o versus dev@oo.o, for example? > Yes, I have been looking at the content too. That concerns me > more. > > And was your dire prediction true of LibreOffice? I don't think so. > > > I don't think the situation is comparable. I also note that LibreOffice has a > small number of mailing lists and I believe there are only mailing lists. A > lot of work is done on IRC, at least among developers. > > > Certainly there is a tipping point, when a critical mass of > participants move over from one list to another. That takes time. > This is encouraged by giving a consistent message about the migration, > something we've failed to do so far. For example, even after we > agreed to create ooo-users, I see you talking about this, on that list > and elsewhere, as a mistake. That is not helping. > > No comment > > -Rob > > [ ... ] >
Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 10:25:49 -0700 "Dennis E. Hamilton" wrote: > I don't think the situation is comparable. I also note that LibreOffice has a > small number of mailing lists and I believe there are only mailing lists. A > lot of work is done on IRC, at least among developers. > A correction for information: there is one LibreOffice mailing list at http://libreofficeforum.org/ Some users are complaining that it is unsatisfactory, as many questions are not answered. -- Rory O'Farrell
Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Rob Weir wrote: > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton > wrote: > > I am changing the topic of this branch of the discussion. > > > > I am worried about some problems with mailing lists and migration of > OpenOffice.org. If the problems are allowed, it should be on purpose. > > > > I suggest discussing those problems before the situation is made worse. > I will move this topic to the OOOUSER wiki on the weekend. > > > > PERSONAL CONCERN: > > > > 1. The current list arrangement is technically superior to what is > proposed for replacement. > > > > Could be be more specific about what you think is technically superior > about the existing approach? And by that I assume you mean the 332 > existing OOo mailing lists? > Mailing list in OOo are better integrated with the OOo plataform as well as better mangement tools for the leads, and each lead or officier manage their own ML. So is not all centralized. > > > 2. Shutting down the resources of a community and expecting that > community to migrate itself onto an alternative will deteriorate if not > completely lose the participation of that community. > > > > Is this really true? Have you looked at recent traffic on > ooo-dev@i.a.o versus dev@oo.o, for example? > Yes we had a similar issue happening to us when we want to implement independent mailing lists. > > And was your dire prediction true of LibreOffice? I don't think so. > Many NL were structuraly fractured when people went to libreoffice while other stayed in OOo. You should think so or at least do the research on the archieves. > > Certainly there is a tipping point, when a critical mass of > participants move over from one list to another. That takes time. > This is encouraged by giving a consistent message about the migration, > something we've failed to do so far. For example, even after we > agreed to create ooo-users, I see you talking about this, on that list > and elsewhere, as a mistake. That is not helping. > > -Rob > > > TO CONSIDER: > > > > Preservation of the existing mailing lists and their services; the means > for doing so. > > > > Migration of the existing mailing list services and content onto Apache > hosting along with OpenOffice.org hosting. > > > > Restoration of moderation and support of the lists themselves. > > > > Within the existing structure and subscriber community of each NL group: > simplification, consolidation, or retirement (with preservation) of existing > lists that are redundant, inactive, or too specialized to sustain. > > > > Adjustment of the operational support to satisfy ASF requirements for > oversight and accountability. > > > > Transfer of lists to different services and operation only when loss of > functionality and community disruption is minimized. > > > > Automatic continuation of the established community and subscriptions on > any migration onto different list systems. > > > > Involvement and engagement of the existing NL group community in each > step of the way. Minimize avoidable disaffection. > > > > - Dennis > > > > -Original Message- > > From: joesc...@web.de [mailto:joesc...@web.de] > > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 01:55 > > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > > > > Hello, > > > > Dave Fisher schrieb: > >> > if you mix everything like user questions and answers, > >> marketing, QA > >> > et cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users. > >> > > >> > But it seems to be the way it is. > >> > so ... I wish you all the best. > >> > >> I understand your concerns about mixing marketing with users. > >> What are the other categories besides marketing that users > >> should be shielded from? Translation? We've been mentored to > >> only have additional lists for good reason and with careful > >> consideration of the community and our oversight > >> responsibilities to the ASF. > > > > It is very, very simple. > > > > The list us...@de.openoffice.org is a list ONLY for german-speaking > users. This > > users a _not Community-members_ but only users and this users cannot > write > > questions in english. > > The list us...@de.openoffice.org is a support-list for users, not a list > to > > coordinate the activity of the project-members. > > > > OK, we can replace us...@de.openoffice.org by a german forum but the > users just > > like us...@de.openoffice.org, and it would be better to have a > German-language > > forum AND a german USERS-list. > > > > > > > > Greetings > > Jörg > > > > -- > > www.calc-info.de > > > > > > > -- *Alexandro Colorado* *OpenOffice.org* Español http://es.openoffice.org fingerprint: E62B CF77 1BEA 0749 C0B8 50B9 3DE6 A84A 68D0 72E6
RE: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
Fascinating. I had no idea about . I am personally subscribed to the following LibreOffice mailing lists: [libreoffice] This is the equivalent for ooo-dev except on governance matters <http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice> libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org [libreoffice-accessibility] email list for discussion of accessibility provisions and needs <http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/threads.html> accessibil...@global.libreoffice.org [libreoffice-documentation] used by authors, editors, and reviewers of documentation, mainly the user guides <http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/threads.html> documentat...@global.libreoffice.org [libreoffice-users] Pretty much what is expected for such a list (attachments not allowed) <http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/> us...@global.libreoffice.org The list of commits is provided on a web page, with an RSS feed: <http://cia.vc/stats/project/LibreOffice>. And, since the governance is via The Document Foundation, [tdf-discuss] often is indistinguishable from some of the other lists <http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/threads.html> disc...@documentfoundation.org And, as close to a public list for the governance activities, perhaps [steering-discuss] Steering Committee discussion (may change with board creation?) <http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/threads.html> steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org Here's the complete roster of public lists, as far as I know: <http://www.documentfoundation.org/contribution/#lists>. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarr...@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 11:49 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org) On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 10:25:49 -0700 "Dennis E. Hamilton" wrote: > I don't think the situation is comparable. I also note that LibreOffice has a > small number of mailing lists and I believe there are only mailing lists. A > lot of work is done on IRC, at least among developers. > A correction for information: there is one LibreOffice mailing list at http://libreofficeforum.org/ Some users are complaining that it is unsatisfactory, as many questions are not answered. -- Rory O'Farrell
Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
> A correction for information: there is one LibreOffice mailing list at > http://libreofficeforum.org/ Excuse me, that looks like a forum and not a mailing list to me? Anyway, I had never even heard of that before; is it at all officially related to LibreOffice or TDF? I certainly don't see any actual LO developers I would know or TDF founding members etc I would have heard of taking part in the "discussion" there. And I don't see it mentioned on the LibreOffice site. Is that libreofficeforum.org just some ad eyeball collector? (I use Adblock, so I don't see if they have lots of ads...) The real LibreOffice mailing lists are mentioned on http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ . Talking just for myself (a paid developer, not a volunteer), I am interested only in the technical list, http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice , and occasionally look at the archives of the "discuss" list for amusement. --tml
Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 09:44:55 +0300 Tor Lillqvist wrote: > > A correction for information: there is one LibreOffice mailing list at > > http://libreofficeforum.org/ > > Excuse me, that looks like a forum and not a mailing list to me? You are correct - it is a forum - I shouldn't post late at night when my brain is going out of gear. > Anyway, I had never even heard of that before; is it at all officially > related to LibreOffice or TDF? My understanding is that it is not official, being run by an enthusiast and serviced by users, including some whose identity may be familiar from the two OpenOffice forums. The two OpenOffice forums do answer questions related to any of the OOo forks. > Is that libreofficeforum.org just some ad eyeball collector? There are some ads in a sidebar to the left which are easily ignored. -- Rory O'Farrell
Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org)
Eek, sorry, for me it is a bit too early, I subconsciously misinterpreted Rory's "there is one LibreOffice mailing list" as something like "there is only one LibreOffice mailing list". Which of course was not what he meant at all. Meh. --tml
[PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org WAS [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
I have just changed the subject. I propose setting up of ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org. I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org. 1. Kazunari Hirano 2. Maho Nakata If there are no objections to the above proposals within 72-hours then I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. Thanks, khirano On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Kazunari Hirano wrote: > Hi all, > > I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > > As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as > us...@ja.openoffice.org, annou...@ja.openoffice.org, > d...@ja.openoffice.org, disc...@ja.openoffice.org, > documentat...@ja.openoffice.org, market...@ja.openoffice.org, > q...@ja.openoffice.org, transl...@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I > would like to invite subscribers > on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org. > > We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read > English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list, > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many > things related to Apache OpenOffice.org. > 1) To understand the proposal > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja > 2) To understand the status > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html > 3) To read and navigate pages on the site > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ > 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache > http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 > 5) To learn how to use wikis > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/ > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/ > http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/ > 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list. > 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and > after AOOo release. > 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo > > Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with > Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo > developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org > project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better > "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read > English. > > We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese" > everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature > requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product > and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org > users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand > what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project. > > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good > communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and > working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people. > > I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org > 1. Kazunari Hirano > 2. Maho Nakata > > If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then > I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. > > Thanks, > khirano > -- I am a slow reader and a slow writer. :) Long and complicated English is a barrier. Short and simple English is a bridge. :) Please be friendly to non-English speakers on lists. :) Slow down. Make it short. Make it simple. No hurry. Read it again before you post. Then post it tomorrow. :)
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org WAS [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi all, Thanks. :) On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Kazunari Hirano wrote: > I have just changed the subject. > > I propose setting up of ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org. > I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org. > 1. Kazunari Hirano > 2. Maho Nakata > > If there are no objections to the above proposals within 72-hours then > I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue. I have invoked Lazy Consensus and filed an issue. http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-3926 Thanks, khirano
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org WAS [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi all, Thanks. > I have invoked Lazy Consensus and filed an issue. > http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-3926 The list has been created. :) Is there any documentation or page which list moderators should read and understand to manage and moderate a list? Thanks, khirano
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org WAS [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Kazunari Hirano wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks. > >> I have invoked Lazy Consensus and filed an issue. >> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-3926 > > The list has been created. > :) > > Is there any documentation or page which list moderators should read > and understand to manage and moderate a list? > If you send an email to ooo-general-ja-h...@incubator.apache.org, from your moderator email address, it will return a "moderator help" file with moderator commands. -Rob > Thanks, > khirano >
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-general-ja at incubator.apache.org WAS [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi Rob, Thanks. I have got the moderator help. :) Thanks, khirano
