Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On 25/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote: Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? I had a look at this and at the mentioned EZMLM Moderator's and Administrator's Manual to have an idea, and it seems that the moderator role and its processes are quite different from what we are used to at openoffice.org. While I do have a general understanding now, I still miss some information on how the lists are actually configured at Apache: - Must all moderation happen by e-mail through the -accept address and similar? Isn't a web interface available? - The distinction between a Moderator and an Administrator is new to me, and I realized that at it.openoffice.org I act much more as an Administrator than a Moderator. My most frequent task is a user asking me to change his e-mail address, which I have to do in two steps (automatically subscribe the new address, then remove the old one; he could do it himself of course, but often he experienced difficulties while trying). Can this be done on the Apache lists too? - Can a lists be set up so that it automatically rejects posts from non-members, sending a (possibly configurable) standard reply? - Can subject tags and e-mail footers be customized? Thanks, Andrea.
Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@openoffice.org wrote: On 25/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote: Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? I had a look at this and at the mentioned EZMLM Moderator's and Administrator's Manual to have an idea, and it seems that the moderator role and its processes are quite different from what we are used to at openoffice.org. Yes. It is the difference between ezmlm and Sympa. While I do have a general understanding now, I still miss some information on how the lists are actually configured at Apache: - Must all moderation happen by e-mail through the -accept address and similar? Isn't a web interface available? I am not aware of any web interface. List moderators are emailed posts to moderate and they accept or reject the posts via a mail interface. The moderation posts have mailto: links within them, so it is usually enough to just click the 'accept' or 'reject' links. - The distinction between a Moderator and an Administrator is new to me, and I realized that at it.openoffice.org I act much more as an Administrator than a Moderator. My most frequent task is a user asking me to change his e-mail address, which I have to do in two steps (automatically subscribe the new address, then remove the old one; he could do it himself of course, but often he experienced difficulties while trying). Can this be done on the Apache lists too? A list moderator and subscribe and unsubscribe users. - Can a lists be set up so that it automatically rejects posts from non-members, sending a (possibly configurable) standard reply? i think by policy we do not want to do this. We should welcome responses to posts without requiring the user to subscribe to the list. This happens all the time, even here on ooo-dev. One thing to note is that the incoming list posts at Apache are run through SpamAssassin. This happens for messages from list subscribers as well as non-subscribers. So the ezlmlm lists at Apache see far less spam that the legacy Sympa lists at OOo. The result is that almost all of the posts that are held for moderation on ooo-dev, ooo-users, ooo-marketing, etc., are either list subscribers posting from a different email address than their subscribed address, or relevant posts from non-subscribers. It is a good thing that we don't automatically reject these posts. - Can subject tags and e-mail footers be customized? Yes. You see this, for example, in the ooo-users list which has unsubscribe info in the footer. -Rob Thanks, Andrea.
Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On 2011-11-13 7:20 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: On 25/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote: Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? I had a look at this and at the mentioned EZMLM Moderator's and Administrator's Manual to have an idea, and it seems that the moderator role and its processes are quite different from what we are used to at openoffice.org. While I do have a general understanding now, I still miss some information on how the lists are actually configured at Apache: Yeah, there are some other usual FAQs that haven't been written up on that page yet. - Must all moderation happen by e-mail through the -accept address and similar? Isn't a web interface available? - Moderation is done over email. Each email you get has an -accept, -reject, and -allow reply address - if you send to the -allow, then that user's email address is whitelisted, and that email address can send mail in the future without going through moderation. - The distinction between a Moderator and an Administrator is new to me, and I realized that at it.openoffice.org I act much more as an Administrator than a Moderator. My most frequent task is a user asking me to change his e-mail address, which I have to do in two steps (automatically subscribe the new address, then remove the old one; he could do it himself of course, but often he experienced difficulties while trying). Can this be done on the Apache lists too? Yes, ezmlm allows moderators to remove and add other email addresses to a list. It still sends a confirmation email, but it sends it to the moderator (i.e. you can do this without the user having to respond to anything. - Can a lists be set up so that it automatically rejects posts from non-members, sending a (possibly configurable) standard reply? I'm pretty sure we have some subscriber-only lists, but you'd need to check with ASF Infra. Normally you'd mail apm...@apache.org with specific questions about the details of mailing list setups. - Can subject tags and e-mail footers be customized? Yes, as Rob noted, moderators can send emails to custom addresses to check and set footers/headers etc., as well as get the list of subscribers. Oh, and folks interested in mailing list statistics might like this: http://pulse.apache.org/ - Shane
Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: A quick summary of where we are, in case you haven't been following the previous threads. Information on the top 100 legacy mailing lists is on the wiki [1]. A draft note that will be sent to these lists is an another page [2]. If you note in that first page, the Migration Owner column is blank. So either I need to quickly learn French, Dutch and Japanese, or I need some help here. Volunteers would translate the note, send it to the relevant NL lists, and be available on those lists to answer any migration-related questions. Ideally you would already be a participant on the lists and familiar to that community. As for staging, I'd recommend that we do not do this all at once. Migrating 100 lists at once would be very messy. But we can easily break this down into related groups of lists and do the migration over a few weeks. One possible staging would be: 1) All the lists that will be merged into the new ooo-marketing list. This will help jump start that lists important work, and bring community members into the discussion who might not have been interested in the other topics we've been discussing on ooo-dev. 2) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-dev 3) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-users 4) NL lists (which could be done in parallel with the above. However, they will require some discussion and admin work to create new ooo-lang lists,) The thought behind this staging is that we work out the kinks with the more technical and (hopefully) more forgiving project lists, before moving on to the user and NL lists. We can adjust the instructions and messaging based on what we learn from the initial migrations. Regards, -Rob Have the new NL lists been setup already? I may have missed that and I haven't look at any jira tix. No NL lists yet, except for Japanese. We need moderator volunteers before we can request them. Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Email+Migration+Post -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who OK. In terms of process, it's kind of a Catch-22 with the NL lists I guess. We can't have them without moderators, and it's unlikely we'll get (volunteer) moderators until we have them sigh. What to do... The ones in the first block on: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists through website.dev should be good for the initial message you've got. And, I'm sure they're all English-speaking. Where are you with any of this? Do you need some of us to do subscriptions and get started? Maybe we could assign blocks from the first part of the page above? I'm happy to help. I don't have a lot of time on a daily basis, but could probably do at least 10 over the next few days. I would be happy to deal with sc.dev thru website.dev. I'll start on subscriptions to these pronto. IT might be a good idea if we decided to do the messaging on the same day though. Thoughts. I took ownership of the ones I'm working on. I hope to get notifications sent tomorrow to most, or by Sunday pm at the latest. -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who
Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: A quick summary of where we are, in case you haven't been following the previous threads. Information on the top 100 legacy mailing lists is on the wiki [1]. A draft note that will be sent to these lists is an another page [2]. If you note in that first page, the Migration Owner column is blank. So either I need to quickly learn French, Dutch and Japanese, or I need some help here. Volunteers would translate the note, send it to the relevant NL lists, and be available on those lists to answer any migration-related questions. Ideally you would already be a participant on the lists and familiar to that community. As for staging, I'd recommend that we do not do this all at once. Migrating 100 lists at once would be very messy. But we can easily break this down into related groups of lists and do the migration over a few weeks. One possible staging would be: 1) All the lists that will be merged into the new ooo-marketing list. This will help jump start that lists important work, and bring community members into the discussion who might not have been interested in the other topics we've been discussing on ooo-dev. 2) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-dev 3) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-users 4) NL lists (which could be done in parallel with the above. However, they will require some discussion and admin work to create new ooo-lang lists,) The thought behind this staging is that we work out the kinks with the more technical and (hopefully) more forgiving project lists, before moving on to the user and NL lists. We can adjust the instructions and messaging based on what we learn from the initial migrations. Regards, -Rob Have the new NL lists been setup already? I may have missed that and I haven't look at any jira tix. No NL lists yet, except for Japanese. We need moderator volunteers before we can request them. Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Email+Migration+Post -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who OK. In terms of process, it's kind of a Catch-22 with the NL lists I guess. We can't have them without moderators, and it's unlikely we'll get (volunteer) moderators until we have them sigh. What to do... The ones in the first block on: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists through website.dev should be good for the initial message you've got. And, I'm sure they're all English-speaking. Where are you with any of this? Do you need some of us to do subscriptions and get started? Maybe we could assign blocks from the first part of the page above? I'm happy to help. I don't have a lot of time on a daily basis, but could probably do at least 10 over the next few days. I would be happy to deal with sc.dev thru website.dev. I'll start on subscriptions to these pronto. IT might be a good idea if we decided to do the messaging on the same day though. Thoughts. -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who
Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
A quick summary of where we are, in case you haven't been following the previous threads. Information on the top 100 legacy mailing lists is on the wiki [1]. A draft note that will be sent to these lists is an another page [2]. If you note in that first page, the Migration Owner column is blank. So either I need to quickly learn French, Dutch and Japanese, or I need some help here. Volunteers would translate the note, send it to the relevant NL lists, and be available on those lists to answer any migration-related questions. Ideally you would already be a participant on the lists and familiar to that community. As for staging, I'd recommend that we do not do this all at once. Migrating 100 lists at once would be very messy. But we can easily break this down into related groups of lists and do the migration over a few weeks. One possible staging would be: 1) All the lists that will be merged into the new ooo-marketing list. This will help jump start that lists important work, and bring community members into the discussion who might not have been interested in the other topics we've been discussing on ooo-dev. 2) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-dev 3) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-users 4) NL lists (which could be done in parallel with the above. However, they will require some discussion and admin work to create new ooo-lang lists,) The thought behind this staging is that we work out the kinks with the more technical and (hopefully) more forgiving project lists, before moving on to the user and NL lists. We can adjust the instructions and messaging based on what we learn from the initial migrations. Regards, -Rob [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Email+Migration+Post
Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: A quick summary of where we are, in case you haven't been following the previous threads. Information on the top 100 legacy mailing lists is on the wiki [1]. A draft note that will be sent to these lists is an another page [2]. If you note in that first page, the Migration Owner column is blank. So either I need to quickly learn French, Dutch and Japanese, or I need some help here. Volunteers would translate the note, send it to the relevant NL lists, and be available on those lists to answer any migration-related questions. Ideally you would already be a participant on the lists and familiar to that community. As for staging, I'd recommend that we do not do this all at once. Migrating 100 lists at once would be very messy. But we can easily break this down into related groups of lists and do the migration over a few weeks. One possible staging would be: 1) All the lists that will be merged into the new ooo-marketing list. This will help jump start that lists important work, and bring community members into the discussion who might not have been interested in the other topics we've been discussing on ooo-dev. 2) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-dev 3) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-users 4) NL lists (which could be done in parallel with the above. However, they will require some discussion and admin work to create new ooo-lang lists,) The thought behind this staging is that we work out the kinks with the more technical and (hopefully) more forgiving project lists, before moving on to the user and NL lists. We can adjust the instructions and messaging based on what we learn from the initial migrations. Regards, -Rob Have the new NL lists been setup already? I may have missed that and I haven't look at any jira tix. No NL lists yet, except for Japanese. We need moderator volunteers before we can request them. Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Email+Migration+Post -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who
Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On 10/25/2011 2:43 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Kay Schenkkay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: A quick summary of where we are, in case you haven't been following the previous threads. Information on the top 100 legacy mailing lists is on the wiki [1]. A draft note that will be sent to these lists is an another page [2]. If you note in that first page, the Migration Owner column is blank. So either I need to quickly learn French, Dutch and Japanese, or I need some help here. Volunteers would translate the note, send it to the relevant NL lists, and be available on those lists to answer any migration-related questions. Ideally you would already be a participant on the lists and familiar to that community. As for staging, I'd recommend that we do not do this all at once. Migrating 100 lists at once would be very messy. But we can easily break this down into related groups of lists and do the migration over a few weeks. One possible staging would be: 1) All the lists that will be merged into the new ooo-marketing list. This will help jump start that lists important work, and bring community members into the discussion who might not have been interested in the other topics we've been discussing on ooo-dev. 2) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-dev 3) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-users 4) NL lists (which could be done in parallel with the above. However, they will require some discussion and admin work to create new ooo-lang lists,) The thought behind this staging is that we work out the kinks with the more technical and (hopefully) more forgiving project lists, before moving on to the user and NL lists. We can adjust the instructions and messaging based on what we learn from the initial migrations. Regards, -Rob Have the new NL lists been setup already? I may have missed that and I haven't look at any jira tix. No NL lists yet, except for Japanese. We need moderator volunteers before we can request them. Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? Have we considered having a list for 'un-represented languages'? If a user does not find their language, where do they go? Posting to the English list or ooo-dev in another language is frowned on. This is a bootstrapping question. Where can a community go to say that they exist, have a need, and would like to create a list. I understand we don't want to create dead lists, and don't want to create a list that cannot be self sustainable, but it seems like there is a gap here for bringing in new communities. [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Email+Migration+Post -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who -- Andrew Rist | Interoperability Architect OracleCorporate Architecture Group Redwood Shores, CA | 650.506.9847
Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: A quick summary of where we are, in case you haven't been following the previous threads. Information on the top 100 legacy mailing lists is on the wiki [1]. A draft note that will be sent to these lists is an another page [2]. If you note in that first page, the Migration Owner column is blank. So either I need to quickly learn French, Dutch and Japanese, or I need some help here. Volunteers would translate the note, send it to the relevant NL lists, and be available on those lists to answer any migration-related questions. Ideally you would already be a participant on the lists and familiar to that community. As for staging, I'd recommend that we do not do this all at once. Migrating 100 lists at once would be very messy. But we can easily break this down into related groups of lists and do the migration over a few weeks. One possible staging would be: 1) All the lists that will be merged into the new ooo-marketing list. This will help jump start that lists important work, and bring community members into the discussion who might not have been interested in the other topics we've been discussing on ooo-dev. 2) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-dev 3) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-users 4) NL lists (which could be done in parallel with the above. However, they will require some discussion and admin work to create new ooo-lang lists,) The thought behind this staging is that we work out the kinks with the more technical and (hopefully) more forgiving project lists, before moving on to the user and NL lists. We can adjust the instructions and messaging based on what we learn from the initial migrations. Regards, -Rob Have the new NL lists been setup already? I may have missed that and I haven't look at any jira tix. No NL lists yet, except for Japanese. We need moderator volunteers before we can request them. Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? OK, thanks, I need to think about this...a good approach, etc. [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Email+Migration+Post -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who
Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Andrew Rist andrew.r...@oracle.com wrote: On 10/25/2011 2:43 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Kay Schenkkay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: A quick summary of where we are, in case you haven't been following the previous threads. Information on the top 100 legacy mailing lists is on the wiki [1]. A draft note that will be sent to these lists is an another page [2]. If you note in that first page, the Migration Owner column is blank. So either I need to quickly learn French, Dutch and Japanese, or I need some help here. Volunteers would translate the note, send it to the relevant NL lists, and be available on those lists to answer any migration-related questions. Ideally you would already be a participant on the lists and familiar to that community. As for staging, I'd recommend that we do not do this all at once. Migrating 100 lists at once would be very messy. But we can easily break this down into related groups of lists and do the migration over a few weeks. One possible staging would be: 1) All the lists that will be merged into the new ooo-marketing list. This will help jump start that lists important work, and bring community members into the discussion who might not have been interested in the other topics we've been discussing on ooo-dev. 2) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-dev 3) All of the lists that will be merged into ooo-users 4) NL lists (which could be done in parallel with the above. However, they will require some discussion and admin work to create new ooo-lang lists,) The thought behind this staging is that we work out the kinks with the more technical and (hopefully) more forgiving project lists, before moving on to the user and NL lists. We can adjust the instructions and messaging based on what we learn from the initial migrations. Regards, -Rob Have the new NL lists been setup already? I may have missed that and I haven't look at any jira tix. No NL lists yet, except for Japanese. We need moderator volunteers before we can request them. Process for getting a new mailing list created is here: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first? Have we considered having a list for 'un-represented languages'? If a user does not find their language, where do they go? Posting to the English list or ooo-dev in another language is frowned on. This is a bootstrapping question. Where can a community go to say that they exist, have a need, and would like to create a list. There are some words of wisdom in the Committer's FAQ [1] regarding user lists: WARNING: the creation of a user mail list can be a very dangerous thing for a community if the developers don't pay attention to their users and if users don't have developers that reply to their emails. Sure, active developers should expect a well behaving user community to reply to one another for simple questions, but this doesn't happen overnight and the creation of a user mail list alone can turn into a very harmful change. So I think we would want to consider on each request whether we have sufficient interest to have a self-supporting user support community. Having an existing committer who speaks the language is great. Having a number of power users is also good. But having users asking questions and getting no answers --- that would reflect poorly on the project. That said, I have absolutely no idea how would determine this for a new list. For existing lists I think we can look at the archives and see how much traffic they are getting, whether questions are being answered, etc. But if someone requests a Klingon list, how do we know if there is a sufficient community behind it? As for where to ask, I think that is ooo-dev by default, and the request would need to be made in English or some other language that we can figure out how to translate. [1]: http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list I think that would be ooo-dev, in a language that ooo-dev is essentially the central list for the project, in terms of announcements, posting project-wide proposals, etc. I understand we don't want to create dead lists, and don't want to create a list that cannot be self sustainable, but it seems like there is a gap here for bringing in new communities. [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Email+Migration+Post -- --- MzK This is no social crisis Just another tricky day for you. -- Tricky Day, the Who -- Andrew Rist | Interoperability Architect OracleCorporate Architecture Group Redwood Shores, CA | 650.506.9847
