Re: Fundraising
On 16 August 2011 19:12, Ross Gardler wrote: > On 15 August 2011 10:05, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > > I don't have any specific comment on this; you might talk to fundraising@ > . > > No point. The ASF does not pay for any kind of development, under any > circumstances. We don't take targetted donations (an EU grant is by > definition targetted). I would be *extremely* surprised if this were > to change. > I doubt the ASF itself could get an EU grant even if it wanted to since it is not an EU SME or government organisation so it wouldn't qualify as the right type of legal entity. It's why I said "You need to be able to apply through a legal company or public sector body in an EU country". (Actually, there are some exceptions but the USA isn't one of them ;-) ) The reason for outlining the plan is to see if anyone is interested in participating via their companies or if employed in an educational institution, their organisation. If it might help fellow Fossers to be involved, great. It's not about doing it through ASF and its equally applicable to OOo or LibO. I see this as a wider community project that can be a beneficial part of the ecosystem as a whole without necessarily being rigidly attached to any particular organism. To carry the metaphor on, a sort of symbiosis. That is not to say that the idea is bad, but that it cannot happen > inside the ASF. All financial transactions relating to specific > projects and project development occur outside the ASF. For the record > there are a number of projects in the incubator that were created and > continue to be supported by EU funded activities outside the ASF. > This is exactly the situation.The only advantage of my strategy - if of course it works, is that there is the prospect of a sustainable income stream that could be used to support a range of FOSS activities. That could be by direct donation to eg Freies Office Deutschland e.V. or some other mechanism. Let's make some money first and then decide how to use it. These activities are more related to marketing than traditional coding because if we certificate a lot of people they are learning to use the products and that will help raise awareness and proliferation. Better to have your marketing strategy making money than consuming it. At least then it is long term sustainable even if it only breaks even. Using EU money simply de-risks the development costs necessary to get to that break even point. Ross > > > > > Ian Lynch wrote on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 09:52:40 +0100: > >> On 15 August 2011 02:20, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > >> > >> > Raphael Bircher wrote on Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 08:01:45 +0200: > >> > > >> > > I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. > >> > > Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why > >> > > Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF > >> > > will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. > >> > > >> > I'm aware of one case of an entity incorporated in Europe having > wanted > >> > to donate to the ASF but faced tax issues in the process. They ended > up > >> > supporting the project in other ways. > >> > > >> > BTW: I don't see ASF having NGO's in each country. Having one NGO is > >> > enough overhead... > >> > > >> > >> In the UK you have to be a registered Charity with a board of trustees > to > >> get tax relief on donations. Setting up a charity is much more involved > than > >> setting up a company. Many non-profit companies are either CICs or > companies > >> limited by guarantee rather than limited companies with shareholders. > One > >> reason why we are a straight limited company is that unless we were a > >> charity there really isn't much advantage. > >> > >> One other method of getting resource into the projects is through EU > grants. > >> Over the last 2 years I have written 3 successful applications with a > grant > >> value of about 800,000 Euros. Unfortunately, the recent OpenOffice.org > >> application failed, but that was on a legal technicality because the > >> submitting organisation in Germany was not the right type of legal > entity > >> :-( The application was deemed to be good enough. So I propose that we > put > >> in at least 2 versions of this through 2 different teams to different > >> National Agencies. One for Apache OOo and one for LibO. Since the > >> application is based on certification of end users we could "clone" this > >> application further eg to other Apache projects that could benefit from > >> skills certification or more generally other FOSS projects such as > Inkscape, > >> GIMP, Audacity etc. If anyone has any suggestions for Apache projects > that > >> could be candidates, or better still interest in running such a project > >> please speak up. You need to be able to apply through a legal company or > >> public sector body in an EU country. We can get grant funding to meet > and > >> plan and I will provide whatever support is necessary. I can find > partners > >> in a r
Re: Fundraising
On 15 August 2011 10:05, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > I don't have any specific comment on this; you might talk to fundraising@. No point. The ASF does not pay for any kind of development, under any circumstances. We don't take targetted donations (an EU grant is by definition targetted). I would be *extremely* surprised if this were to change. That is not to say that the idea is bad, but that it cannot happen inside the ASF. All financial transactions relating to specific projects and project development occur outside the ASF. For the record there are a number of projects in the incubator that were created and continue to be supported by EU funded activities outside the ASF. Ross > > Ian Lynch wrote on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 09:52:40 +0100: >> On 15 August 2011 02:20, Daniel Shahaf wrote: >> >> > Raphael Bircher wrote on Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 08:01:45 +0200: >> > >> > > I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. >> > > Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why >> > > Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF >> > > will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. >> > >> > I'm aware of one case of an entity incorporated in Europe having wanted >> > to donate to the ASF but faced tax issues in the process. They ended up >> > supporting the project in other ways. >> > >> > BTW: I don't see ASF having NGO's in each country. Having one NGO is >> > enough overhead... >> > >> >> In the UK you have to be a registered Charity with a board of trustees to >> get tax relief on donations. Setting up a charity is much more involved than >> setting up a company. Many non-profit companies are either CICs or companies >> limited by guarantee rather than limited companies with shareholders. One >> reason why we are a straight limited company is that unless we were a >> charity there really isn't much advantage. >> >> One other method of getting resource into the projects is through EU grants. >> Over the last 2 years I have written 3 successful applications with a grant >> value of about 800,000 Euros. Unfortunately, the recent OpenOffice.org >> application failed, but that was on a legal technicality because the >> submitting organisation in Germany was not the right type of legal entity >> :-( The application was deemed to be good enough. So I propose that we put >> in at least 2 versions of this through 2 different teams to different >> National Agencies. One for Apache OOo and one for LibO. Since the >> application is based on certification of end users we could "clone" this >> application further eg to other Apache projects that could benefit from >> skills certification or more generally other FOSS projects such as Inkscape, >> GIMP, Audacity etc. If anyone has any suggestions for Apache projects that >> could be candidates, or better still interest in running such a project >> please speak up. You need to be able to apply through a legal company or >> public sector body in an EU country. We can get grant funding to meet and >> plan and I will provide whatever support is necessary. I can find partners >> in a range of EU countries. >> >> We can apply for these grants each year (unless the EU changes the system). >> If we can use these to get viable certification programmes for FOSS going, >> that can then generate further income in perpetuity. It's low risk because >> the grants are not money that has to be repaid but it is in our (FOSS) >> interest to set up a sustainable business so that we are not dependent on >> them in the future. >> >> -- >> Ian >> >> Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) >> >> www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 >> >> The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, >> Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and >> Wales. > -- Ross Gardler (@rgardler) Programme Leader (Open Development) OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: Fundraising
Hi, eric b wrote on 2011-08-16 16:38: And you are right about educoo.de. Please accept my excuses for the wrong statement. c'est la vie. :-) Nevermind. Let's rather look to get content on that page, that helps everyone. Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
Re: Fundraising
On Tue, 2011-08-16 at 16:38 +0200, eric b wrote: > Hi Thorsten, > > Le 16 août 11 à 16:24, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : > > > eric wrote: > >> educoo.us and educoo.de are .. I'd say not correctly maintained > >> (because owned by pro-LO people). > >> > > nonsense. educoo.de points to your servers, you're free to post > > whatever content you desire there (yes, I've read Florian's and your > > answer to this). > > > > And you are right about educoo.de. Please accept my excuses for the > wrong statement. Well, then what is the point of the last email you started educoo.us points to your servers also... So what is it you want, and really think we can do for you, right now? //drew
Re: Fundraising
Hi Thorsten, Le 16 août 11 à 16:24, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : eric wrote: educoo.us and educoo.de are .. I'd say not correctly maintained (because owned by pro-LO people). nonsense. educoo.de points to your servers, you're free to post whatever content you desire there (yes, I've read Florian's and your answer to this). And you are right about educoo.de. Please accept my excuses for the wrong statement. Regards, Eric -- qɔᴉɹə Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Fundraising
eric wrote: > educoo.us and educoo.de are .. I'd say not correctly maintained > (because owned by pro-LO people). > nonsense. educoo.de points to your servers, you're free to post whatever content you desire there (yes, I've read Florian's and your answer to this). Cheers, -- Thorsten pgpZdebKfA4Dx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Fundraising
Hi Eric, eric b wrote on 2011-08-16 12:10: Please don't get me wrong : it is not used, because _nobody_ maintains it, not because we do not want to maintain it :-) And at the end, we have several possibilities: either it is unmaintained intentionaly, or people ignore we exist. Did you invite someone to be our voice in Germany ? If you did, maybe you could redo, just in case ... ? then I am sorry - it sounded to me that you do not want to maintain that site, as it is hosted by pro-LO people. Sorry if I got that wrong. I guess you meant that there is nobody maintaining that page as you guess most people are pro-LO. So, the site is available and ready to be used, and hosted by the German assocication, which supports all free office suites, not only LibreOffice, so we as an association are happy to provide the infrastructure for the site. I personally lack the time to work on the page or call for volunteers, but of course, anyone who wants to fill the page with content is free to do so, and I would be glad if was not only domain with no content, but a live website. :-) So, feel free to spread the word. Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
Re: Fundraising
Hi Andre, Le 16 août 11 à 12:26, Andre Schnabel a écrit : Hi Eric, Von: eric b Gesendet: 16.08.11 12:10 Uhr Please don't get me wrong : it is not used, because _nobody_ maintains it, not because we do not want to maintain it :-) And at the end, we have several possibilities: either it is unmaintained intentionaly, or people ignore we exist. Did you invite someone to be our voice in Germany ? If you did, maybe you could redo, just in case ... ? aifair, FroDev (OOoDev at that time) was asked to host the site for the educoo project. It's normally up to the project to find people to put in content. In fact, we (EducOOo people and me) believed that the request was forwarded. But if nobody never posted any message nowhere, that's easy to understand nobody answered. So if there is no need for educoo project to have a german site, At the beginning, we need nothing. Was some german people who found the idea good. We already have educoo.tw (imacat), educoo.it (Marina), educoo.es (Alexandro), educoo.be (Denis), educoo.no (Olorin) and educoo.de and educoo.us have nobody. That's a bit strange when I see the main part of OOo4Kids and OOoLight downloads concern en-US locale. feel free to indicate this - we can use the money and infrastrucutre for other things. The need is to see people helping OpenOffice.org to enter in the schools. EducOOo is a good way. If educoo volunteers just do not know how to put content to the site, please contact the frodev board or Florian (he can surely point you to the right people). Sure, I won't contact your grandma :-) More seriously, we need to find german volunteers who are interested to maintain EducOOo.de, but we didn't find any volunteer yet, because not informed. Now that you explained you are ok to explain them how to acceed the site, I hope there is somebody interested to forward our request. Probably other german people on this list ? :-) Regards, Eric -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Fundraising
Hi Eric, > Von: eric b > Gesendet: 16.08.11 12:10 Uhr > > Please don't get me wrong : it is not used, because _nobody_ > maintains it, not because we do not want to maintain it :-) > > And at the end, we have several possibilities: either it is > unmaintained intentionaly, or people ignore we exist. Did you invite > someone to be our voice in Germany ? If you did, maybe you could > redo, just in case ... ? aifair, FroDev (OOoDev at that time) was asked to host the site for the educoo project. It's normally up to the project to find people to put in content. Of course you can come around and blame my grandma that she didn't ask anoyone to put content on the educoo site. I can confirm, she never did. So if there is no need for educoo project to have a german site, feel free to indicate this - we can use the money and infrastrucutre for other things. If educoo volunteers just do not know how to put content to the site, please contact the frodev board or Florian (he can surely point you to the right people). regards, andré
Re: Fundraising
Hi Florian, Le 16 août 11 à 11:42, Florian Effenberger a écrit : Hi Eric, eric b wrote on 2011-08-16 08:47: educoo.us and educoo.de are .. I'd say not correctly maintained (because owned by pro-LO people). As you understood, my concern is EducOO.it : Marina Latini does a fantastic work and helps us a lot. now this strikes me. The German association Freies Office Deutschland e.V. (www.frodev.org), which supports LibreOffice as well as OpenOffice.org, verified by the latest board decision, hosts that domain name for you. It takes care of the infrastructure and pays the fees. I know that. If you don't intend to use that domain any longer, please let us know, then I will delete it. The fact is, educoo.de has never seen anything written. If somebody wants to maintain educoo.de, he will be warmly welcome. I consider it unfair to first ask us to host it, and then afterwards say you won't use it, because we host it. Please don't get me wrong : it is not used, because _nobody_ maintains it, not because we do not want to maintain it :-) And at the end, we have several possibilities: either it is unmaintained intentionaly, or people ignore we exist. Did you invite someone to be our voice in Germany ? If you did, maybe you could redo, just in case ... ? Regards, Eric -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Fundraising
Hi Eric, eric b wrote on 2011-08-16 08:47: educoo.us and educoo.de are .. I'd say not correctly maintained (because owned by pro-LO people). As you understood, my concern is EducOO.it : Marina Latini does a fantastic work and helps us a lot. now this strikes me. The German association Freies Office Deutschland e.V. (www.frodev.org), which supports LibreOffice as well as OpenOffice.org, verified by the latest board decision, hosts that domain name for you. It takes care of the infrastructure and pays the fees. If you don't intend to use that domain any longer, please let us know, then I will delete it. I consider it unfair to first ask us to host it, and then afterwards say you won't use it, because we host it. Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
Re: Fundraising
Hi, Le 14 août 11 à 12:24, Andrea Pescetti a écrit : On 14/08/2011 eric b wrote: Le 13 août 11 à 17:44, Andrea Pescetti a écrit : PLIO, the association corresponding to the Italian Native-Lang Project, has been a registered charity in Italy since 2005 and receives contributions from Italian taxpayers, that we invest back in OpenOffice.org-related activities. Is it still the case ? Was an action for OpenOffice.org made since last year (e.g.) ? We localized and released OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 in Italian, we kept the Italian Dictionary extension up-to-date with regular releases, we made some QA on OpenOffice.org 3.4 beta, we held our regular annual assembly at the end of April 2011 and we approved projects that are still inherently fuzzy due the obviously unstable situation that has persisted from April until now. (But, especially as we are on this mailing list, I have to state that, while I am a Board Member of PLIO, I cannot speak on behalf of PLIO; head to http://www.plio.it/ if you want to officially contact PLIO). Ok. However, on our OpenOffice.org pages http://it.openoffice.org/ we don't mention this: we only use http://www.plio.it/ for advertising and fundraising. So we are not affected by the OpenOffice.org fundraising policy. I read the content of the site you mentionned aboce, and it looks abandoned : the last articles are not recent IMHO. Both sites have been in minimal maintenance for years, but not abandoned at all. On http://it.openoffice.org/ we had to wait years for the infrastructure migration to Kenai, that came in February 2011 when the future of OpenOffice.org and of that infrastructure became less and less certain (and I'm now glad that we didn't waste time on updating a web infrastructure that is not going to last). On http://www.plio.it/ we publish 4-5 articles per year, mostly coincident with OpenOffice.org releases and conference. So I'd say it's normal that the latest article is about OOo 3.3.0: we would have more recent articles, had there been new releases or a conference. Wasn't there something about 3.4.0 ? I remember there was an rc ? More recently, PLIO members posted that : http://punto-informatico.it/3018399/PI/Lettere/lettere-openoffice- libreoffice-plio.aspx (I found other PR about PLIO) I don't understand this. Anyway, the facts stated there are correct (basically, PLIO goes on in spite of whatever arguments corporations or groups have, and we give community support to everyone). If you find this relevant, Italo Vignoli is no longer President of PLIO. I was not aware about Italo Vignoli, thanks for the info. educoo.us and educoo.de are .. I'd say not correctly maintained (because owned by pro-LO people). As you understood, my concern is EducOO.it : Marina Latini does a fantastic work and helps us a lot. I'm simply colllecting information in fact :-) Can you please explain us more what is the current PLIO goal ? Our statute is online at http://www.plio.it/ and it dates back to 2005; especially on this mailing list, it suffices to say that PLIO is a charity that, through (unpaid) volunteer activity by its members, aims at improving and promoting OpenOffice.org, related software, auxiliary tools, open formats and free software in general. I'd like to understand who PLIO does support exactly. What I read told me PLIO has choosen LibreOffice, and that's why I ask. Please think I limit my analyze to just facts, and there is no statement from my part. (Again, if someone missed it: I'm not entitled to speak officially on behalf of PLIO, but as long as it may be relevant to this mailing list I'll provide information about how it works). I understand, thanks for your frank answer :-) Last but not least, I'll attend Milano Linux Days (22 October). Maybe we could discuss more about that ? Regards, Eric Bachard -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Fundraising
I am not a lawyer, but I have watched people play lawyers in tv shows. :-) I have been involved with church groups who handled their finances this way, but I cannot give legal advice to set it up. We may have an attorney or 2 on the list here, and I was hoping one might pipe up. On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > Would a for-profit be able to retain Section 8 in the license? > > Wolf Halton wrote on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 05:35:57 -0400: >> One way th handle the issue is to have both a non-profit and a for-profit >> arm to an organization. The NGO foundation side handling education and >> development issues and the for-profit side handling everything else. >> Plainly, this might not be a viable option to us for half a dozen reasons; >> from a perceived dilution of the "brand," to alienating developers. It >> would work in a sense just like any other for-profit company offering >> support for an NGO, but would have the added benefit of making it easier for >> other companies to help, as they could hand money over to the for-profit >> Apache Inc in an extremely straightforward manner - payment, not donation. >> This makes it no harder to get a tax break on the moneys so offered, as >> "professional services" is still a deductible expense, just as "donations" >> are (in some cases). >> >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Daniel Shahaf >> wrote: >> >> > I don't have any specific comment on this; you might talk to fundraising@. >> > >> > Ian Lynch wrote on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 09:52:40 +0100: >> > > On 15 August 2011 02:20, Daniel Shahaf wrote: >> > > >> > > > Raphael Bircher wrote on Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 08:01:45 +0200: >> > > > >> > > > > I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. >> > > > > Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why >> > > > > Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF >> > > > > will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. >> > > > >> > > > I'm aware of one case of an entity incorporated in Europe having wanted >> > > > to donate to the ASF but faced tax issues in the process. They ended >> > up >> > > > supporting the project in other ways. >> > > > >> > > > BTW: I don't see ASF having NGO's in each country. Having one NGO is >> > > > enough overhead... >> > > > >> > > >> > > In the UK you have to be a registered Charity with a board of trustees to >> > > get tax relief on donations. Setting up a charity is much more involved >> > than >> > > setting up a company. Many non-profit companies are either CICs or >> > companies >> > > limited by guarantee rather than limited companies with shareholders. One >> > > reason why we are a straight limited company is that unless we were a >> > > charity there really isn't much advantage. >> > > >> > > One other method of getting resource into the projects is through EU >> > grants. >> > > Over the last 2 years I have written 3 successful applications with a >> > grant >> > > value of about 800,000 Euros. Unfortunately, the recent OpenOffice.org >> > > application failed, but that was on a legal technicality because the >> > > submitting organisation in Germany was not the right type of legal entity >> > > :-( The application was deemed to be good enough. So I propose that we >> > put >> > > in at least 2 versions of this through 2 different teams to different >> > > National Agencies. One for Apache OOo and one for LibO. Since the >> > > application is based on certification of end users we could "clone" this >> > > application further eg to other Apache projects that could benefit from >> > > skills certification or more generally other FOSS projects such as >> > Inkscape, >> > > GIMP, Audacity etc. If anyone has any suggestions for Apache projects >> > that >> > > could be candidates, or better still interest in running such a project >> > > please speak up. You need to be able to apply through a legal company or >> > > public sector body in an EU country. We can get grant funding to meet and >> > > plan and I will provide whatever support is necessary. I can find >> > partners >> > > in a range of EU countries. >> > > >> > > We can apply for these grants each year (unless the EU changes the >> > system). >> > > If we can use these to get viable certification programmes for FOSS >> > going, >> > > that can then generate further income in perpetuity. It's low risk >> > because >> > > the grants are not money that has to be repaid but it is in our (FOSS) >> > > interest to set up a sustainable business so that we are not dependent on >> > > them in the future. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Ian >> > > >> > > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) >> > > >> > > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 >> > > >> > > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, >> > > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and >> > > Wales. >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com > --
Re: Fundraising
Would a for-profit be able to retain Section 8 in the license? Wolf Halton wrote on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 05:35:57 -0400: > One way th handle the issue is to have both a non-profit and a for-profit > arm to an organization. The NGO foundation side handling education and > development issues and the for-profit side handling everything else. > Plainly, this might not be a viable option to us for half a dozen reasons; > from a perceived dilution of the "brand," to alienating developers. It > would work in a sense just like any other for-profit company offering > support for an NGO, but would have the added benefit of making it easier for > other companies to help, as they could hand money over to the for-profit > Apache Inc in an extremely straightforward manner - payment, not donation. > This makes it no harder to get a tax break on the moneys so offered, as > "professional services" is still a deductible expense, just as "donations" > are (in some cases). > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > > > I don't have any specific comment on this; you might talk to fundraising@. > > > > Ian Lynch wrote on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 09:52:40 +0100: > > > On 15 August 2011 02:20, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > > > > > > > Raphael Bircher wrote on Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 08:01:45 +0200: > > > > > > > > > I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. > > > > > Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why > > > > > Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF > > > > > will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. > > > > > > > > I'm aware of one case of an entity incorporated in Europe having wanted > > > > to donate to the ASF but faced tax issues in the process. They ended > > up > > > > supporting the project in other ways. > > > > > > > > BTW: I don't see ASF having NGO's in each country. Having one NGO is > > > > enough overhead... > > > > > > > > > > In the UK you have to be a registered Charity with a board of trustees to > > > get tax relief on donations. Setting up a charity is much more involved > > than > > > setting up a company. Many non-profit companies are either CICs or > > companies > > > limited by guarantee rather than limited companies with shareholders. One > > > reason why we are a straight limited company is that unless we were a > > > charity there really isn't much advantage. > > > > > > One other method of getting resource into the projects is through EU > > grants. > > > Over the last 2 years I have written 3 successful applications with a > > grant > > > value of about 800,000 Euros. Unfortunately, the recent OpenOffice.org > > > application failed, but that was on a legal technicality because the > > > submitting organisation in Germany was not the right type of legal entity > > > :-( The application was deemed to be good enough. So I propose that we > > put > > > in at least 2 versions of this through 2 different teams to different > > > National Agencies. One for Apache OOo and one for LibO. Since the > > > application is based on certification of end users we could "clone" this > > > application further eg to other Apache projects that could benefit from > > > skills certification or more generally other FOSS projects such as > > Inkscape, > > > GIMP, Audacity etc. If anyone has any suggestions for Apache projects > > that > > > could be candidates, or better still interest in running such a project > > > please speak up. You need to be able to apply through a legal company or > > > public sector body in an EU country. We can get grant funding to meet and > > > plan and I will provide whatever support is necessary. I can find > > partners > > > in a range of EU countries. > > > > > > We can apply for these grants each year (unless the EU changes the > > system). > > > If we can use these to get viable certification programmes for FOSS > > going, > > > that can then generate further income in perpetuity. It's low risk > > because > > > the grants are not money that has to be repaid but it is in our (FOSS) > > > interest to set up a sustainable business so that we are not dependent on > > > them in the future. > > > > > > -- > > > Ian > > > > > > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) > > > > > > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 > > > > > > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, > > > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and > > > Wales. > > > > > > -- > This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
Re: Fundraising
One way th handle the issue is to have both a non-profit and a for-profit arm to an organization. The NGO foundation side handling education and development issues and the for-profit side handling everything else. Plainly, this might not be a viable option to us for half a dozen reasons; from a perceived dilution of the "brand," to alienating developers. It would work in a sense just like any other for-profit company offering support for an NGO, but would have the added benefit of making it easier for other companies to help, as they could hand money over to the for-profit Apache Inc in an extremely straightforward manner - payment, not donation. This makes it no harder to get a tax break on the moneys so offered, as "professional services" is still a deductible expense, just as "donations" are (in some cases). On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > I don't have any specific comment on this; you might talk to fundraising@. > > Ian Lynch wrote on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 09:52:40 +0100: > > On 15 August 2011 02:20, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > > > > > Raphael Bircher wrote on Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 08:01:45 +0200: > > > > > > > I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. > > > > Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why > > > > Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF > > > > will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. > > > > > > I'm aware of one case of an entity incorporated in Europe having wanted > > > to donate to the ASF but faced tax issues in the process. They ended > up > > > supporting the project in other ways. > > > > > > BTW: I don't see ASF having NGO's in each country. Having one NGO is > > > enough overhead... > > > > > > > In the UK you have to be a registered Charity with a board of trustees to > > get tax relief on donations. Setting up a charity is much more involved > than > > setting up a company. Many non-profit companies are either CICs or > companies > > limited by guarantee rather than limited companies with shareholders. One > > reason why we are a straight limited company is that unless we were a > > charity there really isn't much advantage. > > > > One other method of getting resource into the projects is through EU > grants. > > Over the last 2 years I have written 3 successful applications with a > grant > > value of about 800,000 Euros. Unfortunately, the recent OpenOffice.org > > application failed, but that was on a legal technicality because the > > submitting organisation in Germany was not the right type of legal entity > > :-( The application was deemed to be good enough. So I propose that we > put > > in at least 2 versions of this through 2 different teams to different > > National Agencies. One for Apache OOo and one for LibO. Since the > > application is based on certification of end users we could "clone" this > > application further eg to other Apache projects that could benefit from > > skills certification or more generally other FOSS projects such as > Inkscape, > > GIMP, Audacity etc. If anyone has any suggestions for Apache projects > that > > could be candidates, or better still interest in running such a project > > please speak up. You need to be able to apply through a legal company or > > public sector body in an EU country. We can get grant funding to meet and > > plan and I will provide whatever support is necessary. I can find > partners > > in a range of EU countries. > > > > We can apply for these grants each year (unless the EU changes the > system). > > If we can use these to get viable certification programmes for FOSS > going, > > that can then generate further income in perpetuity. It's low risk > because > > the grants are not money that has to be repaid but it is in our (FOSS) > > interest to set up a sustainable business so that we are not dependent on > > them in the future. > > > > -- > > Ian > > > > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) > > > > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 > > > > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, > > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and > > Wales. > -- This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
Re: Fundraising
I don't have any specific comment on this; you might talk to fundraising@. Ian Lynch wrote on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 09:52:40 +0100: > On 15 August 2011 02:20, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > > > Raphael Bircher wrote on Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 08:01:45 +0200: > > > > > I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. > > > Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why > > > Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF > > > will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. > > > > I'm aware of one case of an entity incorporated in Europe having wanted > > to donate to the ASF but faced tax issues in the process. They ended up > > supporting the project in other ways. > > > > BTW: I don't see ASF having NGO's in each country. Having one NGO is > > enough overhead... > > > > In the UK you have to be a registered Charity with a board of trustees to > get tax relief on donations. Setting up a charity is much more involved than > setting up a company. Many non-profit companies are either CICs or companies > limited by guarantee rather than limited companies with shareholders. One > reason why we are a straight limited company is that unless we were a > charity there really isn't much advantage. > > One other method of getting resource into the projects is through EU grants. > Over the last 2 years I have written 3 successful applications with a grant > value of about 800,000 Euros. Unfortunately, the recent OpenOffice.org > application failed, but that was on a legal technicality because the > submitting organisation in Germany was not the right type of legal entity > :-( The application was deemed to be good enough. So I propose that we put > in at least 2 versions of this through 2 different teams to different > National Agencies. One for Apache OOo and one for LibO. Since the > application is based on certification of end users we could "clone" this > application further eg to other Apache projects that could benefit from > skills certification or more generally other FOSS projects such as Inkscape, > GIMP, Audacity etc. If anyone has any suggestions for Apache projects that > could be candidates, or better still interest in running such a project > please speak up. You need to be able to apply through a legal company or > public sector body in an EU country. We can get grant funding to meet and > plan and I will provide whatever support is necessary. I can find partners > in a range of EU countries. > > We can apply for these grants each year (unless the EU changes the system). > If we can use these to get viable certification programmes for FOSS going, > that can then generate further income in perpetuity. It's low risk because > the grants are not money that has to be repaid but it is in our (FOSS) > interest to set up a sustainable business so that we are not dependent on > them in the future. > > -- > Ian > > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) > > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 > > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and > Wales.
Re: Fundraising
On 15 August 2011 02:20, Daniel Shahaf wrote: > Raphael Bircher wrote on Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 08:01:45 +0200: > > > I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. > > Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why > > Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF > > will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. > > I'm aware of one case of an entity incorporated in Europe having wanted > to donate to the ASF but faced tax issues in the process. They ended up > supporting the project in other ways. > > BTW: I don't see ASF having NGO's in each country. Having one NGO is > enough overhead... > In the UK you have to be a registered Charity with a board of trustees to get tax relief on donations. Setting up a charity is much more involved than setting up a company. Many non-profit companies are either CICs or companies limited by guarantee rather than limited companies with shareholders. One reason why we are a straight limited company is that unless we were a charity there really isn't much advantage. One other method of getting resource into the projects is through EU grants. Over the last 2 years I have written 3 successful applications with a grant value of about 800,000 Euros. Unfortunately, the recent OpenOffice.org application failed, but that was on a legal technicality because the submitting organisation in Germany was not the right type of legal entity :-( The application was deemed to be good enough. So I propose that we put in at least 2 versions of this through 2 different teams to different National Agencies. One for Apache OOo and one for LibO. Since the application is based on certification of end users we could "clone" this application further eg to other Apache projects that could benefit from skills certification or more generally other FOSS projects such as Inkscape, GIMP, Audacity etc. If anyone has any suggestions for Apache projects that could be candidates, or better still interest in running such a project please speak up. You need to be able to apply through a legal company or public sector body in an EU country. We can get grant funding to meet and plan and I will provide whatever support is necessary. I can find partners in a range of EU countries. We can apply for these grants each year (unless the EU changes the system). If we can use these to get viable certification programmes for FOSS going, that can then generate further income in perpetuity. It's low risk because the grants are not money that has to be repaid but it is in our (FOSS) interest to set up a sustainable business so that we are not dependent on them in the future. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: Fundraising
Raphael Bircher wrote on Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 08:01:45 +0200: > Am 14.08.11 03:58, schrieb Rob Weir: > >On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: > >>Hi Rob, > >> > >>On Saturday, 2011-08-13 10:51:57 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: > >> > >>>Donations went to Team OpenOffice.org, e.V, or to SPI (for US > >>>donations). I'm assuming that Oracle does not control either of these > >>>accounts. I'm assuming as well that Apache and the PPMC has no > >>>control over these accounts. > >>For Team OOo that's correct. For SPI that's presumably correct as well. > >> > >>>Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache > >>>project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party > >>>one. > >>Why not? > >> > >I've formed a US-based non-profit corporation before, so I know some > >of the concerns. To preserve tax-exempt status, as well as to comply > >with fund raising regulations, you need to be very careful how > >donations are solicited and how they are spent. There is a lot of > >paperwork and a lot of details. I have no experience with doing this > >internationally, but that certainly increases the complexity.It is > >very reasonable for Apache not to assume the risks to their non-profit > >status that would come if they allowed every poding or even project to > >do its own fund raising. > I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. > Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why > Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF > will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. I'm aware of one case of an entity incorporated in Europe having wanted to donate to the ASF but faced tax issues in the process. They ended up supporting the project in other ways. BTW: I don't see ASF having NGO's in each country. Having one NGO is enough overhead...
Re: Fundraising
On 14 August 2011 02:58, Rob Weir wrote: > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: ... >>> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache >>> project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party >>> one. >> >> Why not? >> > > I've formed a US-based non-profit corporation before, so I know some > of the concerns. To preserve tax-exempt status, as well as to comply > with fund raising regulations, you need to be very careful how > donations are solicited and how they are spent. There is a lot of > paperwork and a lot of details. I have no experience with doing this > internationally, but that certainly increases the complexity. It is > very reasonable for Apache not to assume the risks to their non-profit > status that would come if they allowed every poding or even project to > do its own fund raising. I'm based in the UK. I'm frequently frustrated by the refusal of the ASF to spend some of its funds on things that I, with my UK non-profit experience, believe is legitimate. The justification given is nearly always as above. It seems to me that the US regulations are much more restrictive to those in the UK and of other EU countries. For this reason it can sometimes be difficult for us Europeans to understand the issue. However, it's not just that the laws seem to be more restrictive but also that it is hard for an organisation like the ASF to scale per project or per individual support. Allowing a single case means we need to consider every case, which then brings us into the complexities of the legal requirements of our 501c(30 status. ... >> Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and >> Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students >> for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those >> expenses? >> > > Apache provides the hardware. They also have travel assistance for > ApacheCon. It is probably premature to talk about the next OOoCon. > I'm not aware of any internship sponsorship, but Apache does > participate in GSoC: > > http://community.apache.org/gsoc.html We do participate in GSoC and we look forward to AOO.o participating next year. We would also like to extend the GSoC type mentoring activities beyond GSoC, however we do not pay for development. Our objective would be to provide some independent validation of the participants achievements, funding for such internships would still be funded externally. However, we've not really succeeded in making this happen. Ross
Re: Fundraising
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: > > On 14 Aug 2011, at 16:23, Rob Weir wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: >>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Rob Weir wrote: >>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: > > On 14 Aug 2011, at 14:24, Rob Weir wrote: > >> We have a trademark policy that states what uses are permitted without >> additional permission, and which uses may be allowed with specific >> permission from Apache. The policy does not differ based the >> incorporation status of the requestor. However, the application of >> the policy, on a case by cases basis, will obviously take into account >> the specific circumstances of the request. > > All true with regard to the use of trademarks, but mostly orthogonal to the question of the AOOo project's attitude towards third-party fundraisers. AOOo is in a unique position compared with all prior Apache projects of which I am aware and the various comments on this thread indicate we need to give thoughtful and clear guidance. > Agreed. But this guidance comes in response to thoughtful and clear proposal from an organization that wishes to use the trademark. >>> >>> Assuming you mean TeamOOo, does that mean you believe their name is a >>> trademark infringement? >>> >> >> You are making a false assumption. We don't have a proposal from TeamOOo. > > Which non-profit fundraiser (the subject of the conversation at this stage) > were you referring to then? > I wrote, "However, the application of the policy, on a case by cases basis, will obviously take into account the specific circumstances of the request." That is obviously speaking generically, since we do not presently have any request before us. -Rob > S. > >
Re: Fundraising
On 14 Aug 2011, at 16:23, Rob Weir wrote: > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Rob Weir wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: On 14 Aug 2011, at 14:24, Rob Weir wrote: > We have a trademark policy that states what uses are permitted without > additional permission, and which uses may be allowed with specific > permission from Apache. The policy does not differ based the > incorporation status of the requestor. However, the application of > the policy, on a case by cases basis, will obviously take into account > the specific circumstances of the request. All true with regard to the use of trademarks, but mostly orthogonal to >>> the question of the AOOo project's attitude towards third-party fundraisers. >>> AOOo is in a unique position compared with all prior Apache projects of >>> which I am aware and the various comments on this thread indicate we need to >>> give thoughtful and clear guidance. >>> >>> Agreed. But this guidance comes in response to thoughtful and clear >>> proposal from an organization that wishes to use the trademark. >>> >> >> Assuming you mean TeamOOo, does that mean you believe their name is a >> trademark infringement? >> > > You are making a false assumption. We don't have a proposal from TeamOOo. Which non-profit fundraiser (the subject of the conversation at this stage) were you referring to then? S.
Re: Fundraising
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Rob Weir wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: >> > >> > On 14 Aug 2011, at 14:24, Rob Weir wrote: >> > >> >> We have a trademark policy that states what uses are permitted without >> >> additional permission, and which uses may be allowed with specific >> >> permission from Apache. The policy does not differ based the >> >> incorporation status of the requestor. However, the application of >> >> the policy, on a case by cases basis, will obviously take into account >> >> the specific circumstances of the request. >> > >> > All true with regard to the use of trademarks, but mostly orthogonal to >> the question of the AOOo project's attitude towards third-party fundraisers. >> AOOo is in a unique position compared with all prior Apache projects of >> which I am aware and the various comments on this thread indicate we need to >> give thoughtful and clear guidance. >> > >> >> Agreed. But this guidance comes in response to thoughtful and clear >> proposal from an organization that wishes to use the trademark. >> > > Assuming you mean TeamOOo, does that mean you believe their name is a > trademark infringement? > You are making a false assumption. We don't have a proposal from TeamOOo. t think there is much we can say in general other than "Specific proposals are welcome". But given a specific proposal, one of the first things I'd look at is whether the trademark was used in a way that implied endorsement by Apache, or whether it was merely the minimum necessary to express the charitable purpose of the organization. > S. >
Re: Fundraising
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Rob Weir wrote: > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: > > > > On 14 Aug 2011, at 14:24, Rob Weir wrote: > > > >> We have a trademark policy that states what uses are permitted without > >> additional permission, and which uses may be allowed with specific > >> permission from Apache. The policy does not differ based the > >> incorporation status of the requestor. However, the application of > >> the policy, on a case by cases basis, will obviously take into account > >> the specific circumstances of the request. > > > > All true with regard to the use of trademarks, but mostly orthogonal to > the question of the AOOo project's attitude towards third-party fundraisers. > AOOo is in a unique position compared with all prior Apache projects of > which I am aware and the various comments on this thread indicate we need to > give thoughtful and clear guidance. > > > > Agreed. But this guidance comes in response to thoughtful and clear > proposal from an organization that wishes to use the trademark. > Assuming you mean TeamOOo, does that mean you believe their name is a trademark infringement? S.
Re: Fundraising
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Simon Phipps wrote: > > On 14 Aug 2011, at 14:24, Rob Weir wrote: > >> We have a trademark policy that states what uses are permitted without >> additional permission, and which uses may be allowed with specific >> permission from Apache. The policy does not differ based the >> incorporation status of the requestor. However, the application of >> the policy, on a case by cases basis, will obviously take into account >> the specific circumstances of the request. > > All true with regard to the use of trademarks, but mostly orthogonal to the > question of the AOOo project's attitude towards third-party fundraisers. AOOo > is in a unique position compared with all prior Apache projects of which I am > aware and the various comments on this thread indicate we need to give > thoughtful and clear guidance. > Agreed. But this guidance comes in response to thoughtful and clear proposal from an organization that wishes to use the trademark. >> So I think it would be unwise of us to give any >> blanket approval for trademark permissions to non-profits in general. >> We should take each case on its own merits. > > Noted and agreed, although I've not seen anyone propose otherwise. > > S. > >
Re: Fundraising
On 14 Aug 2011, at 14:24, Rob Weir wrote: > We have a trademark policy that states what uses are permitted without > additional permission, and which uses may be allowed with specific > permission from Apache. The policy does not differ based the > incorporation status of the requestor. However, the application of > the policy, on a case by cases basis, will obviously take into account > the specific circumstances of the request. All true with regard to the use of trademarks, but mostly orthogonal to the question of the AOOo project's attitude towards third-party fundraisers. AOOo is in a unique position compared with all prior Apache projects of which I am aware and the various comments on this thread indicate we need to give thoughtful and clear guidance. > So I think it would be unwise of us to give any > blanket approval for trademark permissions to non-profits in general. > We should take each case on its own merits. Noted and agreed, although I've not seen anyone propose otherwise. S.
Re: Fundraising
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Simon Phipps wrote: > On Aug 14, 2011 3:33 AM, "Andy Brown" wrote: >> >> Simon Phipps wrote: >> >>> >>> I don't follow that reasoning. If (hypothetically) I want to pay for you > to >>> go to Bermuda for a vacation, it's between you and me and no business of > the >>> Bermuda Tourist Commission. So while I can see the hardware donations > will >>> have to end, why is it anything to do with this project if (also >>> hypothetically) Team OOo wants to pay for you to go to ApacheCon in >>> Vancouver where you've got a paper on AOOo accepted, or wants to pay a >>> student to work on AOOo code for the summer? >>> >>> S. >>> >> >> Well, it not the first time, but it seems I have misread/misunderstood > what was being discussed. It would seem as long as funds are not sent > through ASF and does not use 'trademarked' items they can do as they wish. >> >> Apologizes to all for confusing the matter. > > No worries; I think you expressed an outlook others held too. It helps > refine what the actual issue at hand may be. > > I think that issue is: do we want third-party groups to be free to raise > funds on the grounds they will use them in relation to AOOo and if so what > guidelines do we need? (This would be my preferred option) > > Alternatively, do we wish to devise a trademark-related policy that would > prevent and/or discourage them from doing so? (I currently view this > negatively) > We have a trademark policy that states what uses are permitted without additional permission, and which uses may be allowed with specific permission from Apache. The policy does not differ based the incorporation status of the requestor. However, the application of the policy, on a case by cases basis, will obviously take into account the specific circumstances of the request. Remember, a non-profit organization is no guarantee of virtue. There are many organizations out there (speaking generally, not specifically about any organizations named on this list) that spend 80% of their raised funds on staff salaries, staff travel and general overhead, with very little going through to the underlying charitable mission of the organization. So I think it would be unwise of us to give any blanket approval for trademark permissions to non-profits in general. We should take each case on its own merits. > S. >
Re: Fundraising
On 14/08/2011 eric b wrote: Le 13 août 11 à 17:44, Andrea Pescetti a écrit : PLIO, the association corresponding to the Italian Native-Lang Project, has been a registered charity in Italy since 2005 and receives contributions from Italian taxpayers, that we invest back in OpenOffice.org-related activities. Is it still the case ? Was an action for OpenOffice.org made since last year (e.g.) ? We localized and released OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 in Italian, we kept the Italian Dictionary extension up-to-date with regular releases, we made some QA on OpenOffice.org 3.4 beta, we held our regular annual assembly at the end of April 2011 and we approved projects that are still inherently fuzzy due the obviously unstable situation that has persisted from April until now. (But, especially as we are on this mailing list, I have to state that, while I am a Board Member of PLIO, I cannot speak on behalf of PLIO; head to http://www.plio.it/ if you want to officially contact PLIO). However, on our OpenOffice.org pages http://it.openoffice.org/ we don't mention this: we only use http://www.plio.it/ for advertising and fundraising. So we are not affected by the OpenOffice.org fundraising policy. I read the content of the site you mentionned aboce, and it looks abandoned : the last articles are not recent IMHO. Both sites have been in minimal maintenance for years, but not abandoned at all. On http://it.openoffice.org/ we had to wait years for the infrastructure migration to Kenai, that came in February 2011 when the future of OpenOffice.org and of that infrastructure became less and less certain (and I'm now glad that we didn't waste time on updating a web infrastructure that is not going to last). On http://www.plio.it/ we publish 4-5 articles per year, mostly coincident with OpenOffice.org releases and conference. So I'd say it's normal that the latest article is about OOo 3.3.0: we would have more recent articles, had there been new releases or a conference. More recently, PLIO members posted that : http://punto-informatico.it/3018399/PI/Lettere/lettere-openoffice-libreoffice-plio.aspx (I found other PR about PLIO) I don't understand this. Anyway, the facts stated there are correct (basically, PLIO goes on in spite of whatever arguments corporations or groups have, and we give community support to everyone). If you find this relevant, Italo Vignoli is no longer President of PLIO. Can you please explain us more what is the current PLIO goal ? Our statute is online at http://www.plio.it/ and it dates back to 2005; especially on this mailing list, it suffices to say that PLIO is a charity that, through (unpaid) volunteer activity by its members, aims at improving and promoting OpenOffice.org, related software, auxiliary tools, open formats and free software in general. (Again, if someone missed it: I'm not entitled to speak officially on behalf of PLIO, but as long as it may be relevant to this mailing list I'll provide information about how it works). Regards, Andrea.
Re: Fundraising
Am 08/14/2011 08:01 AM, schrieb Raphael Bircher: Am 14.08.11 03:58, schrieb Rob Weir: On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: Hi Rob, On Saturday, 2011-08-13 10:51:57 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: Donations went to Team OpenOffice.org, e.V, or to SPI (for US donations). I'm assuming that Oracle does not control either of these accounts. I'm assuming as well that Apache and the PPMC has no control over these accounts. For Team OOo that's correct. For SPI that's presumably correct as well. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party one. Why not? I've formed a US-based non-profit corporation before, so I know some of the concerns. To preserve tax-exempt status, as well as to comply with fund raising regulations, you need to be very careful how donations are solicited and how they are spent. There is a lot of paperwork and a lot of details. I have no experience with doing this internationally, but that certainly increases the complexity. It is very reasonable for Apache not to assume the risks to their non-profit status that would come if they allowed every poding or even project to do its own fund raising. I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. Maybe have it point to here instead: http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html#Paypal I think a donation to Apache in general is different from a donation specifically to the AOOo project. I didn't see a "designated use" field in the PayPal form. Correct. Projects are not independent legal entities. The legal entity is the Apache Software Foundation. But the website does say, "If you have a specific target or project that you wish to directly support, please contact us and we will do our best to satisfy your wishes". But that is different than saying that a project has a fund under their control. Yes, and that's exactly the problem why no one is willing to give money. Peopel like to know where where there money go, I doubt that. When it's clear that the money cannot go directly to the AOO project, then it's for the entire ASF *including* AOO. The problem of giving money (from the average human) is the fact that you have a) less in your wallet, b) you don't see or get a short-term effect; like a bugfix or a new release with your preferred language. else they can affort a Lisence of MS Office. This is not true and pure rant. Marcus Higher level question is this: is there any particular reason that we think AOOo has fundraising needs that are not covered by Apache's fundraising? Apache provides the servers, the domain registrations, they have conferences which we are welcome to attend, they have a press office, etc. Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those expenses? Apache provides the hardware. They also have travel assistance for ApacheCon. It is probably premature to talk about the next OOoCon. I'm not aware of any internship sponsorship, but Apache does participate in GSoC: http://community.apache.org/gsoc.html Eike
Re: Fundraising
Hi, Le 13 août 11 à 17:44, Andrea Pescetti a écrit : Jürgen Schmidt wrote: The Spanish project collects also money on their own Maybe other language projects collect also money, i don't know PLIO, the association corresponding to the Italian Native-Lang Project, has been a registered charity in Italy since 2005 and receives contributions from Italian taxpayers, that we invest back in OpenOffice.org-related activities. Is it still the case ? Was an action for OpenOffice.org made since last year (e.g.) ? However, on our OpenOffice.org pages http://it.openoffice.org/ we don't mention this: we only use http://www.plio.it/ for advertising and fundraising. So we are not affected by the OpenOffice.org fundraising policy. I read the content of the site you mentionned aboce, and it looks abandoned : the last articles are not recent IMHO. More recently, PLIO members posted that : http://punto-informatico.it/ 3018399/PI/Lettere/lettere-openoffice-libreoffice-plio.aspx (I found other PR about PLIO) Can you please explain us more what is the current PLIO goal ? Thanks, Eric Bachard -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Fundraising
Am 14.08.11 03:58, schrieb Rob Weir: On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: Hi Rob, On Saturday, 2011-08-13 10:51:57 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: Donations went to Team OpenOffice.org, e.V, or to SPI (for US donations). I'm assuming that Oracle does not control either of these accounts. I'm assuming as well that Apache and the PPMC has no control over these accounts. For Team OOo that's correct. For SPI that's presumably correct as well. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party one. Why not? I've formed a US-based non-profit corporation before, so I know some of the concerns. To preserve tax-exempt status, as well as to comply with fund raising regulations, you need to be very careful how donations are solicited and how they are spent. There is a lot of paperwork and a lot of details. I have no experience with doing this internationally, but that certainly increases the complexity.It is very reasonable for Apache not to assume the risks to their non-profit status that would come if they allowed every poding or even project to do its own fund raising. I assume that a donnation to the ASF is only tax-free in the US. Every Country has here there oven criteria. That's the reason why Wikipedia has NGO's in each Country. It means, donnation to the ASF will not be Tax-Free in Switzerland. Maybe have it point to here instead: http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html#Paypal I think a donation to Apache in general is different from a donation specifically to the AOOo project. I didn't see a "designated use" field in the PayPal form. Correct. Projects are not independent legal entities. The legal entity is the Apache Software Foundation. But the website does say, "If you have a specific target or project that you wish to directly support, please contact us and we will do our best to satisfy your wishes". But that is different than saying that a project has a fund under their control. Yes, and that's exactly the problem why no one is willing to give money. Peopel like to know where where there money go, else they can affort a Lisence of MS Office. Higher level question is this: is there any particular reason that we think AOOo has fundraising needs that are not covered by Apache's fundraising? Apache provides the servers, the domain registrations, they have conferences which we are welcome to attend, they have a press office, etc. Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those expenses? Apache provides the hardware. They also have travel assistance for ApacheCon. It is probably premature to talk about the next OOoCon. I'm not aware of any internship sponsorship, but Apache does participate in GSoC: http://community.apache.org/gsoc.html Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD -- My private Homepage: http://www.raphaelbircher.ch/
Re: Fundraising
On Aug 14, 2011 3:33 AM, "Andy Brown" wrote: > > Simon Phipps wrote: > >> >> I don't follow that reasoning. If (hypothetically) I want to pay for you to >> go to Bermuda for a vacation, it's between you and me and no business of the >> Bermuda Tourist Commission. So while I can see the hardware donations will >> have to end, why is it anything to do with this project if (also >> hypothetically) Team OOo wants to pay for you to go to ApacheCon in >> Vancouver where you've got a paper on AOOo accepted, or wants to pay a >> student to work on AOOo code for the summer? >> >> S. >> > > Well, it not the first time, but it seems I have misread/misunderstood what was being discussed. It would seem as long as funds are not sent through ASF and does not use 'trademarked' items they can do as they wish. > > Apologizes to all for confusing the matter. No worries; I think you expressed an outlook others held too. It helps refine what the actual issue at hand may be. I think that issue is: do we want third-party groups to be free to raise funds on the grounds they will use them in relation to AOOo and if so what guidelines do we need? (This would be my preferred option) Alternatively, do we wish to devise a trademark-related policy that would prevent and/or discourage them from doing so? (I currently view this negatively) S.
Re: Fundraising
Simon Phipps wrote: I don't follow that reasoning. If (hypothetically) I want to pay for you to go to Bermuda for a vacation, it's between you and me and no business of the Bermuda Tourist Commission. So while I can see the hardware donations will have to end, why is it anything to do with this project if (also hypothetically) Team OOo wants to pay for you to go to ApacheCon in Vancouver where you've got a paper on AOOo accepted, or wants to pay a student to work on AOOo code for the summer? S. Well, it not the first time, but it seems I have misread/misunderstood what was being discussed. It would seem as long as funds are not sent through ASF and does not use 'trademarked' items they can do as they wish. Apologizes to all for confusing the matter. Andy
Re: Fundraising
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Andy Brown wrote: > Simon Phipps wrote: >> >> On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: >> >>> >>> Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and >>> Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students >>> for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those >>> expenses? >>> >> >> It's worth noting that these grants were always made by Team OOo (and >> indeed >> by FrODev) at their sole discretion and without any ability to officially >> direct them from the OOo project itself. I find it hard to see how Apache >> would be able to unilaterally shut down an independent, complementary >> activity like this. >> >> As to Shane's point about referring to some other list; presumably, as in >> other instances of this, we'd need to have a proposal formulated before >> doing that, and hence the topic is still appropriate here. >> >> S. >> > > Seems to me there are two options open. > > 1) The grants are made to Apache with no strings attached. > > 2) The businesses stop receiving donations for OpenOffice.org. > Think of it this way. IBM pays me to work on the project and pays for my travel to project-related events. If that is legal, then it is also legal for a non-profit organization to raise money to enable someone else to do these same activities. But you need to think of that organization as external, not part of Apache, not part of this project. Apache projects consist of individuals, not for-profit corporations, not non-profit corporations. However, to the extent they use trademarks owned by Apache, like "OpenOffice.org" in their name or in their fundraising materials, then this may be a concern for us as the trademark owners. And depending on how the funds are used, this may be a concern for regulators. For example, if I created a non-profit called "Friends of the Red Cross" and was not affiliated with the Red Cross, but used their logo in my fundraising materials, you can imagine that I would quickly receive a letter from the Red Cross lawyers. I'd probably also get a letter (or visit) from the Secretary of State in Massachusetts, asking to see my books and investigating whether I was making fraudulent use of that logo. > For either someone that has worked with the organizations that is a member > here needs to contact them and see what they can/ are willing to do. > > Andy >
RE: Fundraising
On Aug 14, 2011 2:54 AM, "Gavin McDonald" wrote: > I am constantly hearing an us vs them attitude, old vs new, our funds not > your funds and I got fed up with up, sorry you got the brunt. Truth is the > ASF gets money donated for all projects to benefit including OOo. Hmm, I'm certainly not implying an us-vs-them attitude, I'm sorry if I've written in a way that's led you to jump to that conclusion. I do sense that some eyes read my contributions assuming they embody hidden criticism; I wish that would stop. I do think however that we're still fact-finding here and we need to avoid both the assumption the whole OpenOffice eco-system is going to be collapsed into Apache as well as the assumption that whatever exists now is inviolable. The size and nature of that ecosystem means it's highly likely that independent non-profits will continue to exist, and as we devise a policy we need to work out how to peacefully co-exist. One useful clarification from Shane was that Apache's fundraising policies are only intended to apply to donations routed through Apache. It's eminently reasonable that those should not be earmarked and we'll need to make that clear to the various supporting funds. We may all the same still wish to be able to give advice about how we'd like them to support whom. > You made no reference to ApacheCon no, but Simon did, then I read your mail > right after and assumed you meant the same, sorry. The above sounds great. My apologies for using ApacheCon as an example. Had I realised there were special conditions applying to some participants and that knowledge of those would obscure my point to those ware of them, I would have used a different example (FOSDEM maybe). The general case - that independent sources of support remain free to do as they wish - remains. S.
Re: Fundraising
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: > Hi Rob, > > On Saturday, 2011-08-13 10:51:57 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: > >> Donations went to Team OpenOffice.org, e.V, or to SPI (for US >> donations). I'm assuming that Oracle does not control either of these >> accounts. I'm assuming as well that Apache and the PPMC has no >> control over these accounts. > > For Team OOo that's correct. For SPI that's presumably correct as well. > >> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache >> project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party >> one. > > Why not? > I've formed a US-based non-profit corporation before, so I know some of the concerns. To preserve tax-exempt status, as well as to comply with fund raising regulations, you need to be very careful how donations are solicited and how they are spent. There is a lot of paperwork and a lot of details. I have no experience with doing this internationally, but that certainly increases the complexity.It is very reasonable for Apache not to assume the risks to their non-profit status that would come if they allowed every poding or even project to do its own fund raising. >> Maybe have it point to here instead: >> >> http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html#Paypal > > I think a donation to Apache in general is different from a donation > specifically to the AOOo project. I didn't see a "designated use" field > in the PayPal form. > Correct. Projects are not independent legal entities. The legal entity is the Apache Software Foundation. But the website does say, "If you have a specific target or project that you wish to directly support, please contact us and we will do our best to satisfy your wishes". But that is different than saying that a project has a fund under their control. >> Higher level question is this: is there any particular reason that we >> think AOOo has fundraising needs that are not covered by Apache's >> fundraising? Apache provides the servers, the domain registrations, >> they have conferences which we are welcome to attend, they have a >> press office, etc. > > Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and > Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students > for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those > expenses? > Apache provides the hardware. They also have travel assistance for ApacheCon. It is probably premature to talk about the next OOoCon. I'm not aware of any internship sponsorship, but Apache does participate in GSoC: http://community.apache.org/gsoc.html > Eike > > -- > PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. > Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD >
RE: Fundraising
> -Original Message- > From: Jean Hollis Weber [mailto:jeanwe...@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, 14 August 2011 11:46 AM > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: RE: Fundraising > > On Sun, 2011-08-14 at 11:17 +1000, Gavin McDonald wrote: > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Jean Hollis Weber [mailto:jeanwe...@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Sunday, 14 August 2011 10:44 AM > > > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > > > Subject: Re: Fundraising > > > > > > > > > > > Profits from sales of printed copies of ODFAuthors (formerly > > > OOoAuthors) books are held by the not-for-profit organisation[1] > > > that publishes those books. The money from OpenOffice.org user guide > > > sales is designated to "be used to benefit the community". This > > > could include things like costs of conference attendance, > > > > Did you have any community members apply to go this year's ApacheCon; > > and were they accepted? > > > > If any AOOo community folks applied for Apache Travel Assistance funds > > to go to ApacheCon this year, should we have refused and sent them to > > you instead and should we continue this segregation in the future? > > Shall all the committers and community members all able to apply to > > the ASF for Apache Travel Assistance with the sole exception of the > > AOOo community and committers, because the funds will be covered as > > you mentioned by the friendsofopendocument.org ? > > That is not what I said, suggested, or implied. You are either misreading or > being deliberately provocative; from your tone, I suspect the latter. Why? I am constantly hearing an us vs them attitude, old vs new, our funds not your funds and I got fed up with up, sorry you got the brunt. Truth is the ASF gets money donated for all projects to benefit including OOo. > > I said funds *could be* used for purposes like those examples I gave. I made > no suggestion that these funds *should be* used in place of any money > available from Apache or elsewhere, and certainly not that they *would be* > so used... just that they existed and *could be* used in ways that benefit the > community. > > Also, I made no reference to ApacheCon nor mentioned any specific > conference. I was thinking, in fact, of people who attend conferences for > librarians or technical writers or educators (as examples) to promote > (Apache) OpenOffice.org -- more of a marketing function. You made no reference to ApacheCon no, but Simon did, then I read your mail right after and assumed you meant the same, sorry. The above sounds great. Gav... > > --Jean > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Gav... > > > > > > > copies of books for display at conferences, copies of books > > > (including translations) for distribution where cost is an issue for > > > the recipient, possibly payment to writers of docs on specific > > > topics... and other things I haven't thought of while writing this note. > > > > > > As Simon suggests, any such disbursement of funds is between us and > > > the recipient, as the money does not go to or through any > > > OpenOffice.org account, assuming such a thing exists. > > > > > > [1] Friends of OpenDocument, Inc., http://friendsofopendocument.org/ > > > > > > --Jean > > > > > >
RE: Fundraising
On Sun, 2011-08-14 at 11:17 +1000, Gavin McDonald wrote: > > > -Original Message- > > From: Jean Hollis Weber [mailto:jeanwe...@gmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, 14 August 2011 10:44 AM > > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > > Subject: Re: Fundraising > > > > > > > Profits from sales of printed copies of ODFAuthors (formerly OOoAuthors) > > books are held by the not-for-profit organisation[1] that publishes those > > books. The money from OpenOffice.org user guide sales is designated to "be > > used to benefit the community". This could include things like costs of > > conference attendance, > > Did you have any community members apply to go this year's ApacheCon; > and were they accepted? > > If any AOOo community folks applied for Apache Travel Assistance funds to > go to ApacheCon this year, should we have refused and sent them to you > instead and should we continue this segregation in the future? Shall all the > committers and community members all able to apply to the ASF for > Apache Travel Assistance with the sole exception of the AOOo community > and committers, because the funds will be covered as you mentioned by > the friendsofopendocument.org ? That is not what I said, suggested, or implied. You are either misreading or being deliberately provocative; from your tone, I suspect the latter. Why? I said funds *could be* used for purposes like those examples I gave. I made no suggestion that these funds *should be* used in place of any money available from Apache or elsewhere, and certainly not that they *would be* so used... just that they existed and *could be* used in ways that benefit the community. Also, I made no reference to ApacheCon nor mentioned any specific conference. I was thinking, in fact, of people who attend conferences for librarians or technical writers or educators (as examples) to promote (Apache) OpenOffice.org -- more of a marketing function. --Jean > > > Thanks > > Gav... > > > > copies of books for display at conferences, copies of > > books (including translations) for distribution where cost is an issue for > > the > > recipient, possibly payment to writers of docs on specific topics... and > > other > > things I haven't thought of while writing this note. > > > > As Simon suggests, any such disbursement of funds is between us and the > > recipient, as the money does not go to or through any OpenOffice.org > > account, assuming such a thing exists. > > > > [1] Friends of OpenDocument, Inc., http://friendsofopendocument.org/ > > > > --Jean > >
RE: Fundraising
> -Original Message- > From: Jean Hollis Weber [mailto:jeanwe...@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, 14 August 2011 10:44 AM > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: Fundraising > > > Profits from sales of printed copies of ODFAuthors (formerly OOoAuthors) > books are held by the not-for-profit organisation[1] that publishes those > books. The money from OpenOffice.org user guide sales is designated to "be > used to benefit the community". This could include things like costs of > conference attendance, Did you have any community members apply to go this year's ApacheCon; and were they accepted? If any AOOo community folks applied for Apache Travel Assistance funds to go to ApacheCon this year, should we have refused and sent them to you instead and should we continue this segregation in the future? Shall all the committers and community members all able to apply to the ASF for Apache Travel Assistance with the sole exception of the AOOo community and committers, because the funds will be covered as you mentioned by the friendsofopendocument.org ? Thanks Gav... > copies of books for display at conferences, copies of > books (including translations) for distribution where cost is an issue for the > recipient, possibly payment to writers of docs on specific topics... and other > things I haven't thought of while writing this note. > > As Simon suggests, any such disbursement of funds is between us and the > recipient, as the money does not go to or through any OpenOffice.org > account, assuming such a thing exists. > > [1] Friends of OpenDocument, Inc., http://friendsofopendocument.org/ > > --Jean
Re: Fundraising
On 8/13/2011 8:44 PM, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: On Sun, 2011-08-14 at 01:28 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Andy Brownwrote: Simon Phipps wrote: On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those expenses? It's worth noting that these grants were always made by Team OOo (and indeed by FrODev) at their sole discretion and without any ability to officially direct them from the OOo project itself. I find it hard to see how Apache would be able to unilaterally shut down an independent, complementary activity like this. As to Shane's point about referring to some other list; presumably, as in other instances of this, we'd need to have a proposal formulated before doing that, and hence the topic is still appropriate here. S. Seems to me there are two options open. 1) The grants are made to Apache with no strings attached. 2) The businesses stop receiving donations for OpenOffice.org. For either someone that has worked with the organizations that is a member here needs to contact them and see what they can/ are willing to do. I don't follow that reasoning. If (hypothetically) I want to pay for you to go to Bermuda for a vacation, it's between you and me and no business of the Bermuda Tourist Commission. So while I can see the hardware donations will have to end, why is it anything to do with this project if (also hypothetically) Team OOo wants to pay for you to go to ApacheCon in Vancouver where you've got a paper on AOOo accepted, or wants to pay a student to work on AOOo code for the summer? S. Profits from sales of printed copies of ODFAuthors (formerly OOoAuthors) books are held by the not-for-profit organisation[1] that publishes those books. The money from OpenOffice.org user guide sales is designated to "be used to benefit the community". This could include things like costs of conference attendance, copies of books for display at conferences, copies of books (including translations) for distribution where cost is an issue for the recipient, possibly payment to writers of docs on specific topics... and other things I haven't thought of while writing this note. Indeed, this case sounds like a great thing that you're doing - and is also something that neither I (as VP, Brand Management) nor the PPMC would even have any standing to ask you to change things. Note that we always love it when book authors choose to donate part of their royalties to related projects, but we don't ask for that. https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#booktitle Apache policies only apply to Apache projects and marks. So any fundraising done outside isn't an issue, and any fundraising that's not directly using Apache marks is not an issue for Apache. It's only fundraising branded for "OpenOffice.org" that we will need to deal with. Personally, I don't see any reason that we (i.e. the ASF) have anything to say about any past funds raised for "OpenOffice.org"; whoever organized those donations should continue to manage them by whatever criteria they started with. But we do need to work on a plan to ensure that Apache policies are respected for both this podling and for our marks going forward. Thus, a basic description of who and what is doing how much fundraising, and in particular, specific links to their pages are needed, so we can see what areas we might need to request changes in. - Shane As Simon suggests, any such disbursement of funds is between us and the recipient, as the money does not go to or through any OpenOffice.org account, assuming such a thing exists. [1] Friends of OpenDocument, Inc., http://friendsofopendocument.org/ --Jean
RE: Fundraising
> -Original Message- > From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com] > Sent: Sunday, 14 August 2011 10:28 AM > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: Fundraising > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Andy Brown byrd.net>wrote: > > > Simon Phipps wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and > >>> Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid > >>> students for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover > >>> those expenses? > >>> > >>> > >> It's worth noting that these grants were always made by Team OOo (and > >> indeed by FrODev) at their sole discretion and without any ability to > >> officially direct them from the OOo project itself. I find it hard to > >> see how Apache would be able to unilaterally shut down an > >> independent, complementary activity like this. > >> > >> As to Shane's point about referring to some other list; presumably, > >> as in other instances of this, we'd need to have a proposal > >> formulated before doing that, and hence the topic is still appropriate > here. > >> > >> S. > >> > >> > > Seems to me there are two options open. > > > > 1) The grants are made to Apache with no strings attached. > > > > 2) The businesses stop receiving donations for OpenOffice.org. > > > > For either someone that has worked with the organizations that is a > > member here needs to contact them and see what they can/ are willing to > do. > > > I don't follow that reasoning. If (hypothetically) I want to pay for you to go to > Bermuda for a vacation, it's between you and me and no business of the > Bermuda Tourist Commission. I haven't been to Bermuda, would 2 weeks be ok? > So while I can see the hardware donations will > have to end, Not really, you just can't say 'heres a server for AOOo' , You can say heres a server for the ASF, I'm sure the AOOo project will benefit if the ASF have another Buildbot or Jenkins server. Talking of which: 1. Where are those donated Buildbot servers that have been talked about, and the donated Pootle server, were they found? 2. Did you know the ASF have some build servers, including Buildbot, Jenkins, Continuum and others that the AOOo project can make user of.? (See ci.apache.org/waterfall, builds.apache.org, vmbuild.apache.org) > why is it anything to do with this project if (also > hypothetically) Team OOo wants to pay for you to go to ApacheCon in > Vancouver where you've got a paper on AOOo accepted, If an ASF Committer has a paper accepted for Vancouver then they are a speaker and in all likelihood will be paid for to go under the speakers agreement. If any ASF committer wants to go to an ASF ApacheCon or other ASF event and can not afford it then they can apply for Travel Assistance to see about getting travel, lodging and entrance paid for. (See www.apache.org/travel for more.) > or wants to pay a > student to work on AOOo code for the summer? Have the AOOo project apply as part of GSoC and have google pay them for their work for the summer. But you are right of course, Companies do pay people to work on ASF projects, or donate employee time, or funds to the ASF in general. I hope you can see, all donations to the ASF are here to help everyone, if we had 30 companies or 20 charities or 1000 individuals saying 'heres some money, or here is a server, I only want the Subversion project to benefit, I only want Apache Forrest to make use of this shiny new server, etc.." we would be in chaos. It is just not manageable for 100+ projects. We are centralised for a reason. Makes infrastructure simpler, and the organising of volunteers and staff to look after that infrastructure is easier too. (Not easy, just easier.) In the long run, donating centrally is easier and will benefit the AOOo project in more ways than you know. Having use of the servers paid for by donations of others, as well as other infrastructure benefits you, benefits the project. Like it or not, you and the AOOo project are already using hardware and time donated by other Sponsors and donators, why not reciprocate that by having the same happen for the current donations to OpenOffice.org.? Remember everything you say the money is for, is already covered in some shape or form by the ASF. True, we cannot send you to Bermuda just because you ask, but we can send you to ApacheCon if you cannot truly afford to go on your own dime. This is not a unique situation, other projects that joined also had previously had directed donations in a fund or whatever, in some cases they converted over to ASF Sponsorship program so they could continue to help in general. HTH Gav...
Re: Fundraising
On Sun, 2011-08-14 at 01:28 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote: > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Andy Brown wrote: > > > Simon Phipps wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and > >>> Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students > >>> for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those > >>> expenses? > >>> > >>> > >> It's worth noting that these grants were always made by Team OOo (and > >> indeed > >> by FrODev) at their sole discretion and without any ability to officially > >> direct them from the OOo project itself. I find it hard to see how Apache > >> would be able to unilaterally shut down an independent, complementary > >> activity like this. > >> > >> As to Shane's point about referring to some other list; presumably, as in > >> other instances of this, we'd need to have a proposal formulated before > >> doing that, and hence the topic is still appropriate here. > >> > >> S. > >> > >> > > Seems to me there are two options open. > > > > 1) The grants are made to Apache with no strings attached. > > > > 2) The businesses stop receiving donations for OpenOffice.org. > > > > For either someone that has worked with the organizations that is a member > > here needs to contact them and see what they can/ are willing to do. > > > I don't follow that reasoning. If (hypothetically) I want to pay for you to > go to Bermuda for a vacation, it's between you and me and no business of the > Bermuda Tourist Commission. So while I can see the hardware donations will > have to end, why is it anything to do with this project if (also > hypothetically) Team OOo wants to pay for you to go to ApacheCon in > Vancouver where you've got a paper on AOOo accepted, or wants to pay a > student to work on AOOo code for the summer? > > S. Profits from sales of printed copies of ODFAuthors (formerly OOoAuthors) books are held by the not-for-profit organisation[1] that publishes those books. The money from OpenOffice.org user guide sales is designated to "be used to benefit the community". This could include things like costs of conference attendance, copies of books for display at conferences, copies of books (including translations) for distribution where cost is an issue for the recipient, possibly payment to writers of docs on specific topics... and other things I haven't thought of while writing this note. As Simon suggests, any such disbursement of funds is between us and the recipient, as the money does not go to or through any OpenOffice.org account, assuming such a thing exists. [1] Friends of OpenDocument, Inc., http://friendsofopendocument.org/ --Jean
Re: Fundraising
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Andy Brown wrote: > Simon Phipps wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: >> >> >>> Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and >>> Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students >>> for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those >>> expenses? >>> >>> >> It's worth noting that these grants were always made by Team OOo (and >> indeed >> by FrODev) at their sole discretion and without any ability to officially >> direct them from the OOo project itself. I find it hard to see how Apache >> would be able to unilaterally shut down an independent, complementary >> activity like this. >> >> As to Shane's point about referring to some other list; presumably, as in >> other instances of this, we'd need to have a proposal formulated before >> doing that, and hence the topic is still appropriate here. >> >> S. >> >> > Seems to me there are two options open. > > 1) The grants are made to Apache with no strings attached. > > 2) The businesses stop receiving donations for OpenOffice.org. > > For either someone that has worked with the organizations that is a member > here needs to contact them and see what they can/ are willing to do. I don't follow that reasoning. If (hypothetically) I want to pay for you to go to Bermuda for a vacation, it's between you and me and no business of the Bermuda Tourist Commission. So while I can see the hardware donations will have to end, why is it anything to do with this project if (also hypothetically) Team OOo wants to pay for you to go to ApacheCon in Vancouver where you've got a paper on AOOo accepted, or wants to pay a student to work on AOOo code for the summer? S.
Re: Fundraising
Simon Phipps wrote: On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those expenses? It's worth noting that these grants were always made by Team OOo (and indeed by FrODev) at their sole discretion and without any ability to officially direct them from the OOo project itself. I find it hard to see how Apache would be able to unilaterally shut down an independent, complementary activity like this. As to Shane's point about referring to some other list; presumably, as in other instances of this, we'd need to have a proposal formulated before doing that, and hence the topic is still appropriate here. S. Seems to me there are two options open. 1) The grants are made to Apache with no strings attached. 2) The businesses stop receiving donations for OpenOffice.org. For either someone that has worked with the organizations that is a member here needs to contact them and see what they can/ are willing to do. Andy
Re: Fundraising
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: > > Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and > Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students > for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those > expenses? > It's worth noting that these grants were always made by Team OOo (and indeed by FrODev) at their sole discretion and without any ability to officially direct them from the OOo project itself. I find it hard to see how Apache would be able to unilaterally shut down an independent, complementary activity like this. As to Shane's point about referring to some other list; presumably, as in other instances of this, we'd need to have a proposal formulated before doing that, and hence the topic is still appropriate here. S.
Re: Fundraising
On 8/13/2011 6:18 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote: Am 13.08.11 23:32, schrieb Shane Curcuru: ...snip... ASF fundraising policy prohibits directed donations. Donations of cash or hardware or significant services may only be made to the ASF as a whole, and not to individual projects. You have reasons why you do it like that? ...snip... Specific questions about details of fundraising policy should be addressed to the privately archived fundraising@ list. Note that the incubation of the Apache OOo podling is unlikely to change ASF fundraising policies. Hence, my belief a transition plan is needed. - Shane
Re: Fundraising
Am 13.08.11 23:32, schrieb Shane Curcuru: On 8/13/2011 2:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: Hi Rob, On Saturday, 2011-08-13 10:51:57 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: Donations went to Team OpenOffice.org, e.V, or to SPI (for US donations). I'm assuming that Oracle does not control either of these accounts. I'm assuming as well that Apache and the PPMC has no control over these accounts. For Team OOo that's correct. For SPI that's presumably correct as well. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party one. Why not? ASF fundraising policy prohibits directed donations. Donations of cash or hardware or significant services may only be made to the ASF as a whole, and not to individual projects. You have reasons why you do it like that? Some projects work with specific vendors to secure donated software licenses (for example, debuggers, code or log analyzers, etc.) for the purpose of developing their project's software. But this certainly does not extend to per-project fundraisers or bank accounts. Note that this is why I raised the issue: we need a plan to understand how we're going to transition from any existing fundraising efforts that use the OpenOffice.org name, to the Apache model of non-directed donations to the ASF as a whole. This also leads to the larger question (I suggest another thread) of how the ASF as a whole and the AOOo project in specific plan to use the OpenOffice.org domain name and trademark in the future. I like Roy's general idea of using it as a generic overview to the project and a set of links to OOo related resources. However that will require some detailed planning, to balance keeping it as useful as possible while being careful to only directly distribute appropriately licensed content. Specific questions about details of fundraising policy should be addressed to the privately archived fundraising@ list. - Shane Maybe have it point to here instead: http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html#Paypal I think a donation to Apache in general is different from a donation specifically to the AOOo project. I didn't see a "designated use" field in the PayPal form. Higher level question is this: is there any particular reason that we think AOOo has fundraising needs that are not covered by Apache's fundraising? Apache provides the servers, the domain registrations, they have conferences which we are welcome to attend, they have a press office, etc. Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those expenses? Eike -- My private Homepage: http://www.raphaelbircher.ch/
Re: Fundraising
On 8/13/2011 2:45 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: Hi Rob, On Saturday, 2011-08-13 10:51:57 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: Donations went to Team OpenOffice.org, e.V, or to SPI (for US donations). I'm assuming that Oracle does not control either of these accounts. I'm assuming as well that Apache and the PPMC has no control over these accounts. For Team OOo that's correct. For SPI that's presumably correct as well. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party one. Why not? ASF fundraising policy prohibits directed donations. Donations of cash or hardware or significant services may only be made to the ASF as a whole, and not to individual projects. Some projects work with specific vendors to secure donated software licenses (for example, debuggers, code or log analyzers, etc.) for the purpose of developing their project's software. But this certainly does not extend to per-project fundraisers or bank accounts. Note that this is why I raised the issue: we need a plan to understand how we're going to transition from any existing fundraising efforts that use the OpenOffice.org name, to the Apache model of non-directed donations to the ASF as a whole. This also leads to the larger question (I suggest another thread) of how the ASF as a whole and the AOOo project in specific plan to use the OpenOffice.org domain name and trademark in the future. I like Roy's general idea of using it as a generic overview to the project and a set of links to OOo related resources. However that will require some detailed planning, to balance keeping it as useful as possible while being careful to only directly distribute appropriately licensed content. Specific questions about details of fundraising policy should be addressed to the privately archived fundraising@ list. - Shane Maybe have it point to here instead: http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html#Paypal I think a donation to Apache in general is different from a donation specifically to the AOOo project. I didn't see a "designated use" field in the PayPal form. Higher level question is this: is there any particular reason that we think AOOo has fundraising needs that are not covered by Apache's fundraising? Apache provides the servers, the domain registrations, they have conferences which we are welcome to attend, they have a press office, etc. Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those expenses? Eike
Re: Fundraising
Hi Rob, On Saturday, 2011-08-13 10:51:57 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: > Donations went to Team OpenOffice.org, e.V, or to SPI (for US > donations). I'm assuming that Oracle does not control either of these > accounts. I'm assuming as well that Apache and the PPMC has no > control over these accounts. For Team OOo that's correct. For SPI that's presumably correct as well. > Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache > project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party > one. Why not? > Maybe have it point to here instead: > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html#Paypal I think a donation to Apache in general is different from a donation specifically to the AOOo project. I didn't see a "designated use" field in the PayPal form. > Higher level question is this: is there any particular reason that we > think AOOo has fundraising needs that are not covered by Apache's > fundraising? Apache provides the servers, the domain registrations, > they have conferences which we are welcome to attend, they have a > press office, etc. Team OOo paid bursaries for individuals that went to OOoCons and Hackfest, paid hardware for buildbots and pootle servers, paid students for the OOo internship. Do you think that Apache will cover those expenses? Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD pgpqw2CH98V9V.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Fundraising
Jürgen Schmidt wrote: The Spanish project collects also money on their own Maybe other language projects collect also money, i don't know PLIO, the association corresponding to the Italian Native-Lang Project, has been a registered charity in Italy since 2005 and receives contributions from Italian taxpayers, that we invest back in OpenOffice.org-related activities. However, on our OpenOffice.org pages http://it.openoffice.org/ we don't mention this: we only use http://www.plio.it/ for advertising and fundraising. So we are not affected by the OpenOffice.org fundraising policy. Regards, Andrea.
Re: Fundraising
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 8:42 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: > Shane wrote: > > "Note that the issue of monetary contributions and/or donations is a major > one, especially since there are real policy differences between how > OpenOffice.org used to work under Sun/Oracle and how the ASF does it's > fundraising. In particular, the ASF has a fundrais...@apache.org team and > VP who work on fundraising for all projects; individual projects do not > specifically solicit for funds (other than to link to the ASF Sponsorship > page, etc.)." > > "I would urge the PPMC to start a separate thread dealing with the > contributing.oo.o page, the relationship with SPI, and any other fundraising > matters." > > "Get a description of any pre-existing ways that funds might have come into > the project in the recent past, figure out a proposed plan for what the PPMC > would like to do in the future, and then work with fundraising@ (a privately > archived list) to move forward." > > As suggested I'm starting a new thread. As a start can anyone post here any > ways that they know OOo generated funds and if possible the main contact > details of those leading that project. > > Team OOo is the one I think most people are familiar with but what about any > others? > Donations went to Team OpenOffice.org, e.V, or to SPI (for US donations). I'm assuming that Oracle does not control either of these accounts. I'm assuming as well that Apache and the PPMC has no control over these accounts. So first thing we should do, one we control the wiki, is change this page: http://contributing.openoffice.org/donate.html Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an Apache project can have a private fund, or solicit donations for a 3rd party one. Maybe have it point to here instead: http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html#Paypal Higher level question is this: is there any particular reason that we think AOOo has fundraising needs that are not covered by Apache's fundraising? Apache provides the servers, the domain registrations, they have conferences which we are welcome to attend, they have a press office, etc. > -- > Ian > > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) > > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 > > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and > Wales. >
Re: Fundraising
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: > Shane wrote: > > "Note that the issue of monetary contributions and/or donations is a major > one, especially since there are real policy differences between how > OpenOffice.org used to work under Sun/Oracle and how the ASF does it's > fundraising. In particular, the ASF has a fundrais...@apache.org team and > VP who work on fundraising for all projects; individual projects do not > specifically solicit for funds (other than to link to the ASF Sponsorship > page, etc.)." > > "I would urge the PPMC to start a separate thread dealing with the > contributing.oo.o page, the relationship with SPI, and any other > fundraising > matters." > > "Get a description of any pre-existing ways that funds might have come into > the project in the recent past, figure out a proposed plan for what the > PPMC > would like to do in the future, and then work with fundraising@ (a > privately > archived list) to move forward." > > As suggested I'm starting a new thread. As a start can anyone post here any > ways that they know OOo generated funds and if possible the main contact > details of those leading that project. > > Team OOo is the one I think most people are familiar with but what about > any > others? > Freies Office Deutschland e.V. http://www.frodev.org/spenden it's the former OpenOffice e.V. that collect money for LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org. Donations have to be marked for LibreOffice or OpenOfffice, if not the donation can be used for both as far as i know. http://es.openoffice.org/ The Spanish project collects also money on their own Maybe other language projects collect also money, i don't know and can't read the sides Juergen > -- > Ian > > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) > > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 > > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and > Wales. >
