Re: Significance of UID, template_id & concept in templates

[Ian McNicoll]

It certainly expects UID to be unique - so be careful if cloning a template
that the uid is updated.

Ian
Dr Ian McNicoll
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
office +44 (0)1536 414994
skype: ianmcnicoll
email: i...@freshehr.com
twitter: @ianmcnicoll



Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd.
CCIO inidus Ltd. i...@inidus.com
Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org
Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL


On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 06:20, Dileep V S  wrote:

> Thanks Thomas/Ian,
>
> I will review the documents that Thomas has mentioned and comeback if
> there are any other questions.
>
> Meanwhile, from the template indexing errors that I got from Ethercis, I
> feel that Ethercis uses concept in some internal constructs. It seems to
> expect UID & concept to be unique.
>
> regards
> Dileep V S
> *Founder*
> HealtheLife Ventures LLP
> m: +91 9632888113
> a: 106, Innovation Centre, IIIT, Electronics City, Bangalore 560100
> w: ehr.network, ayushehr.com
>  e: dil...@healthelife.in
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 7:46 PM Ian McNicoll  wrote:
>
>> Thomas is correct.
>>
>> Right now the template ID is generally the source of truth from a
>> technical pov but some systems also expect and use the uid. I don't think
>> 'concept' is actually used practically speaking.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> Dr Ian McNicoll
>> mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
>> office +44 (0)1536 414994
>> skype: ianmcnicoll
>> email: i...@freshehr.com
>> twitter: @ianmcnicoll
>>
>>
>>
>> Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd.
>> CCIO inidus Ltd. i...@inidus.com
>> Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org
>> Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 at 14:31, Thomas Beale 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dileep,
>>>
>>> the identification section of the AOM2 spec
>>> 
>>> gives a reasonable explanation. In ADL2/AOM2, a template is just an
>>> archetype, not something different, so all the archetype rules apply. More
>>> on ADL2 templates here
>>> .
>>> ALl of the rules for ADL2/AOM2 should be the same for .oet / ADL 1.4 based
>>> templates (e.g. when is a new UID required etc).
>>>
>>> hope this helps.
>>> - thomas
>>> On 18/06/2019 21:05, Dileep V S wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Please see a snippet from an OPT that we have. I see that there are 3
>>> different pieces of identification - UID, template_id & concept.
>>> Template_id seems to have been picked up automatically from the template
>>> file name and UID automatically generated by the template designer.
>>>
>>> The concept is something that the person creating the template can
>>> optionally give and can be different from the template_id.
>>>
>>> 
>>> 0c8e4361-ed54-4555-b2d9-9680c1f2bb46
>>>   
>>>   
>>> EHRN Medication summary.v0
>>>   
>>>   EHRN Medication summary.v0
>>>
>>> What are the intended purpose of each of these? Can we have two
>>> templates with different sets of these data without creating a conflict?
>>> For example can I have two versions of the same template with different
>>> UIDs and template_id, but same concept? How about two with different UIDs
>>> and same template_id or two with same UID and different template_ids.
>>>
>>> What situations can cause a conflict on the server?
>>>
>>> regards
>>> Dileep V S
>>> *Founder*
>>> HealtheLife Ventures LLP
>>> m: +91 9632888113
>>> a: 106, Innovation Centre, IIIT, Electronics City, Bangalore 560100
>>> w: ehr.network, ayushehr.com
>>>  e: dil...@healthelife.in
>>>
>>> ___
>>> openEHR-clinical mailing 
>>> listopenEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.orghttp://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thomas Beale
>>> Principal, Ars Semantica 
>>> Consultant, ABD Project, Intermountain Healthcare
>>> 
>>> Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation
>>> 
>>> Health IT blog  | Culture blog
>>>  | The Objective Stance
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> openEHR-clinical mailing list
>>> openEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.org
>>>
>>> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org
>>>
>> ___
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>>
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>>
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>
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>
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Re: Significance of UID, template_id & concept in templates

[Dileep V S]

Thanks Thomas/Ian,

I will review the documents that Thomas has mentioned and comeback if there
are any other questions.

Meanwhile, from the template indexing errors that I got from Ethercis, I
feel that Ethercis uses concept in some internal constructs. It seems to
expect UID & concept to be unique.

regards
Dileep V S
*Founder*
HealtheLife Ventures LLP
m: +91 9632888113
a: 106, Innovation Centre, IIIT, Electronics City, Bangalore 560100
w: ehr.network, ayushehr.com
 e: dil...@healthelife.in


On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 7:46 PM Ian McNicoll  wrote:

> Thomas is correct.
>
> Right now the template ID is generally the source of truth from a
> technical pov but some systems also expect and use the uid. I don't think
> 'concept' is actually used practically speaking.
>
> Ian
>
> Dr Ian McNicoll
> mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
> office +44 (0)1536 414994
> skype: ianmcnicoll
> email: i...@freshehr.com
> twitter: @ianmcnicoll
>
>
>
> Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd.
> CCIO inidus Ltd. i...@inidus.com
> Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org
> Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL
>
>
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 at 14:31, Thomas Beale 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dileep,
>>
>> the identification section of the AOM2 spec
>> 
>> gives a reasonable explanation. In ADL2/AOM2, a template is just an
>> archetype, not something different, so all the archetype rules apply. More
>> on ADL2 templates here
>> .
>> ALl of the rules for ADL2/AOM2 should be the same for .oet / ADL 1.4 based
>> templates (e.g. when is a new UID required etc).
>>
>> hope this helps.
>> - thomas
>> On 18/06/2019 21:05, Dileep V S wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Please see a snippet from an OPT that we have. I see that there are 3
>> different pieces of identification - UID, template_id & concept.
>> Template_id seems to have been picked up automatically from the template
>> file name and UID automatically generated by the template designer.
>>
>> The concept is something that the person creating the template can
>> optionally give and can be different from the template_id.
>>
>> 
>> 0c8e4361-ed54-4555-b2d9-9680c1f2bb46
>>   
>>   
>> EHRN Medication summary.v0
>>   
>>   EHRN Medication summary.v0
>>
>> What are the intended purpose of each of these? Can we have two templates
>> with different sets of these data without creating a conflict? For example
>> can I have two versions of the same template with different UIDs and
>> template_id, but same concept? How about two with different UIDs and same
>> template_id or two with same UID and different template_ids.
>>
>> What situations can cause a conflict on the server?
>>
>> regards
>> Dileep V S
>> *Founder*
>> HealtheLife Ventures LLP
>> m: +91 9632888113
>> a: 106, Innovation Centre, IIIT, Electronics City, Bangalore 560100
>> w: ehr.network, ayushehr.com
>>  e: dil...@healthelife.in
>>
>> ___
>> openEHR-clinical mailing 
>> listopenEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.orghttp://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org
>>
>> --
>> Thomas Beale
>> Principal, Ars Semantica 
>> Consultant, ABD Project, Intermountain Healthcare
>> 
>> Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation
>> 
>> Health IT blog  | Culture blog
>>  | The Objective Stance
>> 
>> ___
>> openEHR-clinical mailing list
>> openEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.org
>>
>> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org
>>
> ___
> openEHR-clinical mailing list
> openEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.org
>
> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org
>
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Re: Choosing appropriate composition archetypes for recording smoking and drinking summary

[Ian McNicoll]

Ultimately this is going to be about the context if use, and what you are
trying to do. Smoking history will be asked in many different places and in
many potentially different applications.

If you are working with a single app, then the lifestyle_factors
composition is probably the sensible place as a default but in a multi-app
platform environment, you may want people to be able to ask about smoking
status in the context of a condition or disease pathway composition.
Ultimately it is really about your wish/ability to maintain a single source
of truth about smoking status

Here is an approach we took for a coProduced Patient Health Record

https://ckm.apperta.org/ckm/templates/1051.57.165/orgchart

all of the templates are here

https://ckm.apperta.org/ckm/#showProject=1051.61.34

and the underlying document is at https://apperta.org/coPHR/

but we took a different approach for a condition focussed pathway document
on Acute coronary syndrome - the key thing is that the archetype is
identical in both cases.

Knitt


  Dr Ian McNicoll
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
office +44 (0)1536 414994
skype: ianmcnicoll
email: i...@freshehr.com
twitter: @ianmcnicoll



Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd.
CCIO inidus Ltd. i...@inidus.com
Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org
Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL


On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 at 14:32, Thomas Beale  wrote:

>
> Hi Dileep,
>
> it would be interesting if you could publish anything about your virtual
> folder design, because more is being added to the RM to standardise how
> FOLDERs are used to represent episodes, mainly based on how DIPS (Norway)
> and Code24 (NL) do it. See SPECRM-55 and SPECRM-56
> .
> THis is certainly not complete, and indeed we have not yet published a
> guide for how to use Folders to do this (there probably is not yet full
> agreement anyway). Nevertheless, both these vendors have sophisticated
> approaches to using FOLDERs for episodes, and it would be good to have any
> other ideas to add to the mix so that we could either standardise a single
> approach, or else describe a small number of extant approaches such that
> client software can figure out what kind of episode representation it is
> dealing with.
>
> ANother thing, just for reference: from a formal point of view, what gets
> committed due to an encounter is always be a Contribution, i.e. an openEHR
> change set (thinking in DVCS, e.g. Git terms). A Contribution can contain
> any / all of:
>
>- completely new TLO(s)
>- new version(s) of any existing TLO(s)
>- change(s) to any existing TLO(s)
>- logical deletion(s) of any TLO(s)
>- changes to path structure of any TLO with such a structure (=
>directory)
>
> Here, TLO = 'top-level object', which can be the following from the EHR
> model
> 
> :
>
>- COMPOSITION
>- directory, consisting of FOLDERs
>- EHR_STATUS
>- EHR_ACCESS
>
> And from the Demographic model
> :
>
>- PARTY
>- PARTY_RELATIONSHIP
>
> ANd from the Task Planning model
> 
> :
>
>- COMPOSITION containing WORK_PLAN or TASK_PLAN
>
> It is of course very common that the result of an encounter is just one
> new COMPOSITION, or one new version of one existing COMPOSITION - but just
> as with Git or any other versioning system, this requires a Contribution
> since it is still a change set.
>
> Full versioning semantics here
> ,
> for reference.
>
> - thomas
>
>
> On 05/06/2019 12:15, Dileep V S wrote:
>
> Dear Gerard,
>
> Thanks for your response. Your point of a composition being designed to
> record a complete encounter is worth another discussion.
>
> I personally feel that it is one way of implementing your CDR, but there
> could be other equally effective approaches that work better in other
> situations. For example in the CDR service component of our platform
> (EHR.Network), we have gone with generic reusable templates such as
> complaints, diagnosis, medication summary, medication order etc. The
> application can compose the complete schema for different encounter/event
> use cases using a combination of these generic templates. The data gathered
> in any event is grouped together under episodes and events using the
> virtual folder service.
>
> This approach ensures the generic nature of the platform, while
> maintaining it's extensibility over time. It also helps us contain the
> proliferation of templates and keeps our library of commonly used stored
> queries to a manageable level.
>
> May be there are other better approaches than either of these that are
> already being 

Re: Significance of UID, template_id & concept in templates

[Ian McNicoll]

Thomas is correct.

Right now the template ID is generally the source of truth from a technical
pov but some systems also expect and use the uid. I don't think 'concept'
is actually used practically speaking.

Ian

Dr Ian McNicoll
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
office +44 (0)1536 414994
skype: ianmcnicoll
email: i...@freshehr.com
twitter: @ianmcnicoll



Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd.
CCIO inidus Ltd. i...@inidus.com
Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org
Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL


On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 at 14:31, Thomas Beale  wrote:

> Hi Dileep,
>
> the identification section of the AOM2 spec
> 
> gives a reasonable explanation. In ADL2/AOM2, a template is just an
> archetype, not something different, so all the archetype rules apply. More
> on ADL2 templates here
> .
> ALl of the rules for ADL2/AOM2 should be the same for .oet / ADL 1.4 based
> templates (e.g. when is a new UID required etc).
>
> hope this helps.
> - thomas
> On 18/06/2019 21:05, Dileep V S wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Please see a snippet from an OPT that we have. I see that there are 3
> different pieces of identification - UID, template_id & concept.
> Template_id seems to have been picked up automatically from the template
> file name and UID automatically generated by the template designer.
>
> The concept is something that the person creating the template can
> optionally give and can be different from the template_id.
>
> 
> 0c8e4361-ed54-4555-b2d9-9680c1f2bb46
>   
>   
> EHRN Medication summary.v0
>   
>   EHRN Medication summary.v0
>
> What are the intended purpose of each of these? Can we have two templates
> with different sets of these data without creating a conflict? For example
> can I have two versions of the same template with different UIDs and
> template_id, but same concept? How about two with different UIDs and same
> template_id or two with same UID and different template_ids.
>
> What situations can cause a conflict on the server?
>
> regards
> Dileep V S
> *Founder*
> HealtheLife Ventures LLP
> m: +91 9632888113
> a: 106, Innovation Centre, IIIT, Electronics City, Bangalore 560100
> w: ehr.network, ayushehr.com
>  e: dil...@healthelife.in
>
> ___
> openEHR-clinical mailing 
> listopenEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.orghttp://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org
>
> --
> Thomas Beale
> Principal, Ars Semantica 
> Consultant, ABD Project, Intermountain Healthcare
> 
> Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation
> 
> Health IT blog  | Culture blog
>  | The Objective Stance
> 
> ___
> openEHR-clinical mailing list
> openEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.org
>
> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org
>
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Re: Choosing appropriate composition archetypes for recording smoking and drinking summary

[Thomas Beale]

Hi Dileep,

it would be interesting if you could publish anything about your virtual 
folder design, because more is being added to the RM to standardise how 
FOLDERs are used to represent episodes, mainly based on how DIPS 
(Norway) and Code24 (NL) do it. See SPECRM-55 and SPECRM-56 
. 
THis is certainly not complete, and indeed we have not yet published a 
guide for how to use Folders to do this (there probably is not yet full 
agreement anyway). Nevertheless, both these vendors have sophisticated 
approaches to using FOLDERs for episodes, and it would be good to have 
any other ideas to add to the mix so that we could either standardise a 
single approach, or else describe a small number of extant approaches 
such that client software can figure out what kind of episode 
representation it is dealing with.


ANother thing, just for reference: from a formal point of view, what 
gets committed due to an encounter is always be a Contribution, i.e. an 
openEHR change set (thinking in DVCS, e.g. Git terms). A Contribution 
can contain any / all of:


 * completely new TLO(s)
 * new version(s) of any existing TLO(s)
 * change(s) to any existing TLO(s)
 * logical deletion(s) of any TLO(s)
 * changes to path structure of any TLO with such a structure (= directory)

Here, TLO = 'top-level object', which can be the following from the EHR 
model 
:


 * COMPOSITION
 * directory, consisting of FOLDERs
 * EHR_STATUS
 * EHR_ACCESS

And from the Demographic model 
:


 * PARTY
 * PARTY_RELATIONSHIP

ANd from the Task Planning model 
:


 * COMPOSITION containing WORK_PLAN or TASK_PLAN

It is of course very common that the result of an encounter is just one 
new COMPOSITION, or one new version of one existing COMPOSITION - but 
just as with Git or any other versioning system, this requires a 
Contribution since it is still a change set.


Full versioning semantics here 
, 
for reference.


- thomas


On 05/06/2019 12:15, Dileep V S wrote:

Dear Gerard,

Thanks for your response. Your point of a composition being designed 
to record a complete encounter is worth another discussion.


I personally feel that it is one way of implementing your CDR, but 
there could be other equally effective approaches that work better in 
other situations. For example in the CDR service component of our 
platform (EHR.Network), we have gone with generic reusable templates 
such as complaints, diagnosis, medication summary, medication order 
etc. The application can compose the complete schema for different 
encounter/event use cases using a combination of these generic 
templates. The data gathered in any event is grouped together under 
episodes and events using the virtual folder service.


This approach ensures the generic nature of the platform, while 
maintaining it's extensibility over time. It also helps us contain the 
proliferation of templates and keeps our library of commonly used 
stored queries to a manageable level.


May be there are other better approaches than either of these that are 
already being used by others. I feel the approach to choose will 
depend upon the requirements and so maintaining flexibility for the 
implementer will be crucial.




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Re: Significance of UID, template_id & concept in templates

[Thomas Beale]

Hi Dileep,

the identification section of the AOM2 spec 
 
gives a reasonable explanation. In ADL2/AOM2, a template is just an 
archetype, not something different, so all the archetype rules apply. 
More on ADL2 templates here 
. 
ALl of the rules for ADL2/AOM2 should be the same for .oet / ADL 1.4 
based templates (e.g. when is a new UID required etc).


hope this helps.

- thomas
On 18/06/2019 21:05, Dileep V S wrote:

Hi,

Please see a snippet from an OPT that we have. I see that there are 3 
different pieces of identification - UID, template_id & concept. 
Template_id seems to have been picked up automatically from the 
template file name and UID automatically generated by the template 
designer.


The concept is something that the person creating the template can 
optionally give and can be different from the template_id.



0c8e4361-ed54-4555-b2d9-9680c1f2bb46
  
  
    EHRN Medication summary.v0
  
  EHRN Medication summary.v0

What are the intended purpose of each of these? Can we have two 
templates with different sets of these data without creating a 
conflict? For example can I have two versions of the same template 
with different UIDs and template_id, but same concept? How about two 
with different UIDs and same template_id or two with same UID and 
different template_ids.


What situations can cause a conflict on the server?

regards
Dileep V S
/Founder/
HealtheLife Ventures LLP
m:  +91 9632888113
a:  106, Innovation Centre, IIIT, Electronics City, Bangalore 560100
w: 	ehr.network, ayushehr.com 
  e: dil...@healthelife.in 




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--
Thomas Beale
Principal, Ars Semantica 
Consultant, ABD Project, Intermountain Healthcare 

Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation 

Health IT blog  | Culture blog 
 | The Objective Stance 

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