Modeling reference ranges
Hi Sam, Ian, Thanks for your tips, I think we are far away from defining guidelines soon, but I think I can extend my templates to define this conditions/triggers there while we don't have a formal guideline to do so. The objective of this project (it's my degree thesis) is: to build the first OpenEHR 100% medical record implementation in my country Uruguay, so if this is successful we can spread the word about OpenEHR works and how other can adopt it to build EHR systems. Now there are many initiatives to build EHRs but not much experience in how to do it, IMHO OpenEHR is the answer we are looking for, but I need something working to show it to the others :D Cheers, Pablo Pazos Gutierrez http://pablo.swp.googlepages.com/ From: sam.he...@oceaninformatics.com To: openehr-clinical at openehr.org Subject: RE: Modeling reference ranges Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:09:16 +0930 I agree Ian ? though they are always triggers in reality. Australia made more progress on Lipids when it changed labs from reporting actual norms to target norms. Suddenly everyone had high cholesterols and down they have come! Cheers, Sam From: openehr-clinical-boun...@openehr.org [mailto:openehr-clinical-bounces at openehr.org] On Behalf Of Ian McNicoll Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2009 9:42 AM To: For openEHR technical discussions Cc: openehr-clinical at openehr.org Subject: Re: Modeling reference ranges Thanks Sam, That was helpful but would you agree that is does not make much sense to use a reference range for blood pressure in the same manner as you would for a lab test. I have suggested that if Pablo is trying to set trigger conditions e;g a series of BPs over a particular level, then this properly belongs in the guideline/pathway space, rather than as ref ranges? Ian Dr Ian McNicoll office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657 mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 skype ianmcnicoll ian at mcmi.co.uk Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com BCS Primary Health Care Specialist Group www.phcsg.org 2009/10/13 Sam Heard Hi Pablo The issue is that you do not see the reference model attributes in the archetype editor. A Quantity data type has a normal range and other reference ranges built in. We do not set the reference ranges in archetypes as these vary and archetypes are the absolute statement about things (what could possibly be true ever, anywhere). So it is in the form or data that you will get access to the reference range. You could set it in a template (not possible in our tools as yet). Generally the reference ranges come with the results from the lab or a dynamic depending on gender, age etc. I hope this is helpful ? have a look at the data type specs for clarification. The UML is at: http://www.openehr.org/uml/release-1.0.1/Browsable/_9_0_76d0249_1109599337877_94556_1510Report.html You will see an optional normal_range and 0..* other reference ranges as part of a root abstract class DV_ORDERED Cheers, Sam From: openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org [mailto:openehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org] On Behalf Of pablo pazos Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2009 8:02 AM To: openehr-clinical at openehr.org; openehr-technical at openehr.org Subject: Modeling reference ranges Hi, I'm playing around with archetypes trying to model an observation and its reference ranges, I mean something like "blood pressure" and some range to define what is "hypertension", but I can't found an archetype that defines a reference range for an observation. Any one has experience in modeling something like this? An archetype is the correct place to define a reference range for an observation value? Any ideas? Thak you! Cheers, Pablo Pazos Gutierrez Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at openehr.org http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you?re up to on Facebook. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_2:092009 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/private/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20091014/c29ee8c7/attachment.html>
License and copyright of archetypes
Hi Erik, On the licensing front, I was taken by some of the issues that Richard raised and the concern I was expressing was the possibility of people claiming that a particular template was their design - a group of archetypes and then creating a form based on that. This looked particularly problematic for clinical users from my perspective. SA seems to offer some protection for that scenario. I think you are focussing of the users in the traditional software sense (a very important group if you want uptake) and not the clinicians and other expert users who create the archetypes and who I want to be the leaders in both creation and use. Your arguments for not using SA are well put. I do not want to force people to use openEHR Foundation archetypes - we all want the best ones to be out there in use. If, as you say, a commercial effort created the best set and everyone started using it, then that will be the interoperability space. At the moment archetypes are freely available. The idea here is to get the best possible license to help the develop the sort of community activity that is what we want to see. BY alone is clearly a choice, SA adds a major condition that we need to consider carefully. Thanks for your challenging response. Regarding CKM. I sense that you would prefer it was open source and that is where I started as well. Ocean worked on that basis with Central Queensland University for 3 years and had an academic team using the usual stack (mySQL, Apache etc) and just couldn't get there. We chose to use a closed source asset management engine from a small company in Australia to get something working and I believe our team, led by Sebastian, Heather and Ian, have created something wonderful. It might be that there will be open source tools that do this job in the future but I suspect these will flourish in the commercial sector for the time being (Arcitecta's clients are largely research institutes and universities!). It would be good to have a list of interfaces for CKM people would like from this service. You can look in the Archetype Editor for some specs immediately as this pulls web-based files from CKM. I will ask Sebastian to put the interfaces on the openEHR wiki. The things you can do already: 1. Pull down all the archetypes in a zip file. 2. Get a list of archetypes as a web service and download any you want. Any refinements of the interface people would like to have, put it on the list or send it to Sebastian. The platform CKM is running on is Linux and Java (Could be Windows Server) with this component in the middle. We should have a plug-in framework going shortly as this is basically how the underlying engine operates anyway. Cheers, Sam > -Original Message- > From: openehr-clinical-bounces at openehr.org [mailto:openehr-clinical- > bounces at openehr.org] On Behalf Of Erik Sundvall > Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2009 8:43 PM > To: For openEHR clinical discussions > Cc: For openEHR technical discussions > Subject: Re: License and copyright of archetypes > > Hi Sam! > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 01:04, Sam Heard > wrote: > > Richard has raised the issue of people copyrighting forms and other > derived > > works based on archetypes and perhaps claiming these cannot be > copied. This > > seems to be an argument in favour of SA... > > I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. > > 1. It seems to me that previously when you argued for Share Alike (SA) > you said that derivative works (like GUIs) that were not archetypes > should not be seen by the foundation as derivative works covered by > the SA-requirement. (It still remains to be detailed if/how such a > position by the foundation should be formalised.) > > 2. Now it sounds like you say that forms based on archetypes really > should be considered derivative works and thus need to be released > under SA too. Somehow you seem confident that this would solve more > potential copyright issues than it would create. > > Don't you find the views 1 & 2 conflicting? Could you also detail how > SA (in 2 above) would stop copy-fights in this setting, is it by > disallowing all archetype based systems that are not published under > a SA-license, leaving only open source solutions as permitted to use > openEHR-hosted archetypes? (Since I like to use and create open source > I would find this interesting, but I doubt it would be realistic in > today's health care setting :-)) > > > > If you select CC-BY you can still require that any specialised or > > > adapted archetypes _hosted_ by openEHR should be free under CC-BY. > > > Well, what if the specialised archetype is hosted in Brazil for > instance. > > What if you receive data from there? > > I assume you don't have a certain issue with projects based in Brazil > (or do you?) and that you instead mean something like: > > "What if you receive data from a stupid organisation that wants to > share data with you and does not understand that they need to release > the relat
License and copyright of archetypes
Sam Heard wrote: > Regarding CKM. I sense that you would prefer it was open source and that is > where I started as well. Ocean worked on that basis with Central Queensland > University for 3 years and had an academic team using the usual stack > (mySQL, Apache etc) and just couldn't get there. We chose to use a closed > source asset management engine from a small company in Australia to get > something working and I believe our team, led by Sebastian, Heather and Ian, > have created something wonderful. It might be that there will be open source > tools that do this job in the future but I suspect these will flourish in > the commercial sector for the time being (Arcitecta's clients are largely > research institutes and universities!). > > It would be good to have a list of interfaces for CKM people would like from > this service. You can look in the Archetype Editor for some specs > immediately as this pulls web-based files from CKM. I will ask Sebastian to > put the interfaces on the openEHR wiki. The things you can do already: > 1. Pull down all the archetypes in a zip file. > 2. Get a list of archetypes as a web service and download any you want. > > Any refinements of the interface people would like to have, put it on the > list or send it to Sebastian Hi Eric and all, The web service interface of CKM is described here: http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/healthmod/CKM+Webservices If you are missing something let me know or raise a Jira issue in CKM: About/Suggest new feature (when logged in). In addition to what Sam has mentioned, from the CKM GUI you can also get selected classes of archetypes, archetypes that have been created or modified after a certain date, etc. You can also get an OWL ontology of all archetypes and their classifications (e.g. Health Domain = Adolescent Health, Profession = Nurse, ...). Cheers Sebastian
wiki organisation
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CKM update
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