Empty string for DV_TEXT
Hi Leo, An important principle under-pinning openEHR is that 'empty' data is not normally recorded, which is consistent with general clinical practice information recording. On this basis, I am not sure I can see the use case for recording i.e. Empty text. If a text data entry field is left blank, this would simply not be recorded in openEHR data. If the field is mandatory, either the user is forced to make some sort of entry or perhaps is allowed to select one of the null values as you suggest. Regards, Ian Dr Ian McNicoll office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657 mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 skype ianmcnicoll ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com ian at mcmi.co.uk Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype Editorial Group Member BCS Primary Health Care SG Group www.phcsg.org / BCS Health Scotland On 25 June 2010 16:07, Moretti Leonardo lmoretti at noemalife.com wrote: In http://www.openehr.org/releases/1.0.2/architecture/rm/data_types_im.pdf, DV_TEXT is defined as a text item. Among Invariants (page 29), I found that this data type is valid if it is not empty (Value_valid: value /= void and then not value.is_empty and then not(value.has(CR) or value.has(LF))). Does this mean empty string is not a valid value for DV_TEXT? If so, why empty string cannot be a valid value? An empty string could be meaningful, with a different semantic than null value! Many textual information could be an empty string (comments, descritpions..). An empty string means that the value is exactly a void string, a null value means that the information is unknown, not taken, not asked! Regards leo ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at openehr.org http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/private/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20100626/b2b981b8/attachment.html
Decision Support Providers
There is 'Virtual EMR' project going on in HL7 do to exactly this sort of work i.e a relatively simple interface/ service against which decision support cab operate consistently - http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=Virtual_Medical_Record_(vMR) The big problem they will face, as ever, is defining the detailed clinical content in a manageable and scalable fashion. I think the openEHR approach to content definition has definite advantages. Ian Dr Ian McNicoll office / fax +44(0)141 560 4657 mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 skype ianmcnicoll ian.mcnicoll at oceaninformatics.com ian at mcmi.co.uk Clinical Analyst Ocean Informatics openEHR Archetype Editorial Group Member BCS Primary Health Care SG Group www.phcsg.org / BCS Health Scotland On 25 June 2010 16:24, Shannon Tony (Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust) tony.shannon at nhs.net wrote: FYI.. A thought provoking post from John Halamka on decision support providers as service. http://geekdoctor.blogspot.com/2010/06/decision-support-service-providers.html Some of you might have complementary/alternative views as to how this might work within an openEHR enabled landscape... Rong Would you like to comment? Your recent work covered some of this key territory.. Regards, Tony This message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the sender that you have received the message in error before deleting it. Please do not disclose, copy or distribute information in this e-mail or take any action in reliance on its contents: to do so is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Thank you for your co-operation. NHSmail is the secure email and directory service available for all NHS staff in England and Scotland NHSmail is approved for exchanging patient data and other sensitive information with NHSmail and GSI recipients NHSmail provides an email address for your career in the NHS and can be accessed anywhere For more information and to find out how you can switch, visit www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/nhsmail ___ openEHR-clinical mailing list openEHR-clinical at openehr.org http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/private/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20100626/3675df9b/attachment.html
Medinfo 2010 openEHR workshop
service available for all NHS staff in England and Scotland NHSmail is approved for exchanging patient data and other sensitive information with NHSmail and GSI recipients NHSmail provides an email address for your career in the NHS and can be accessed anywhere For more information and to find out how you can switch, visit www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/nhsmail -- Dr Heather Leslie MBBS FRACGP FACHI Director of Clinical Modelling Ocean Informatics Phone (Aust) +61 (0)418 966 670 Skype - heatherleslie Twitter - @omowizard ___ openEHR-clinical mailing list openEHR-clinical at openehr.org http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical This message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the sender that you have received the message in error before deleting it. Please do not disclose, copy or distribute information in this e-mail or take any action in reliance on its contents: to do so is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Thank you for your co-operation. NHSmail is the secure email and directory service available for all NHS staff in England and Scotland NHSmail is approved for exchanging patient data and other sensitive information with NHSmail and GSI recipients NHSmail provides an email address for your career in the NHS and can be accessed anywhere For more information and to find out how you can switch, visit www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/nhsmail ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at openehr.org http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/private/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20100626/04153249/attachment.html
Decision Support Providers
On 26/06/2010 13:57, Ian McNicoll wrote: There is 'Virtual EMR' project going on in HL7 do to exactly this sort of work i.e a relatively simple interface/ service against which decision support cab operate consistently - http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=Virtual_Medical_Record_(vMR) http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=Virtual_Medical_Record_%28vMR%29 The big problem they will face, as ever, is defining the detailed clinical content in a manageable and scalable fashion. I think the openEHR approach to content definition has definite advantages. * * If you look at the domain model on which the vMR is designed (http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=Image:HL7vMR_vMR_Domain_Analysis_Model_v2010-03-22.zip) you will see that it is a very fixed model of clinical concepts. I am not sure how they expect that queries for changed versions of these concepts or different concepts be done. The vMR job is actually the kind of thing openEHR is really designed to do well, with the following elements: * standard reference model * standard way of representing any clinical or other domain concept - archetypes templates * standard way of querying the data - AQL, a-path or other archetype-based approaches * service interface for making fine-grained changes to data (some specification proposals at http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/spec/vEHR+Service+Specification) GELLO or something similar then has a place 'above the line' for representing guidelines that need to be executed against the EHR. - thomas beale -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/private/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20100626/4f09daca/attachment.html
Decision Support Providers
Hi Thomas, I am now back at Duke in a full time capacity. The work within HL7 is being lead by Ken Kawamoto from Duke, a colleague of mine. Duke has one fo the best clinical research enterprises in the world - the Duke Clinical Research Institute and the new Duke Translational Medical Institute, where the Duke Center for Health Informatics is based. We have asignificant weffort committed to defining detailed clinical content. I'd say let's postpone the decision (as ever) for a couple of years and see if we are as bad as you think. Actullay, we have an effort similar to Evelyn's and look forward to working with her. W. Ed Hammond, Ph.D. Director, Duke Center for Health Informatics Thomas Beale thomas.beale at oce aninformatics.com To openehr-technical at openehr.org Sent by: cc openehr-technical -bounces at openehr. Subject org Re: Decision Support Providers 06/26/2010 11:57 AM Please respond to For openEHR technical discussions openehr-technica l at openehr.org On 26/06/2010 13:57, Ian McNicoll wrote: There is 'Virtual EMR' project going on in HL7 do to exactly this sort of work i.e a relatively simple interface/ service against which decision support cab operate consistently - http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=Virtual_Medical_Record_(vMR) The big problem they will face, as ever, is defining the detailed clinical content in a manageable and scalable fashion. I think the openEHR approach to content definition has definite advantages. If you look at the domain model on which the vMR is designed ( http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=Image:HL7vMR_vMR_Domain_Analysis_Model_v2010-03-22.zip ) you will see that it is a very fixed model of clinical concepts. I am not sure how they expect that queries for changed versions of these concepts or different concepts be done. The vMR job is actually the kind of thing openEHR is really designed to do well, with the following elements: standard reference model standard way of representing any clinical or other domain concept - archetypes templates standard way of querying the data - AQL, a-path or other archetype-based approaches service interface for making fine-grained changes to data (some specification proposals at http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/spec/vEHR+Service+Specification) GELLO or something similar then has a place 'above the line' for representing guidelines that need to be executed against the EHR. - thomas beale ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at openehr.org http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical
Decision Support Providers
Hi Ed, I didn't say it was bad (it is probably very good) - I said it was 'fixed'. Like CCR - which as far as I understand is very good domain modelling - but also pretty fixed. The debate here is about 'how' not 'what'. If I was working on the vMR in HL7 right now, the first thing I would do would be to copy exactly the content you have modelled in the diagram I referred to - in to archetypes and templates. Then I would get for free: * the ability to change it with no changes to any reference model (information remains valid) * the ability to add completely new things, also without requiring any changes in the underlying information model * the ability to query everything in a generic fashion using queries based directly on the domain models This argument is the same as with all the *MIMs in HL7 - as a technology I don't think they work, but I don't question their content (in most cases I am not competent to do that). I would really love the opportunity to show you how nice this model could be if modelled in archetypes in an openEHR system. You would get just what you want with much greater flexibility. Please don't think I would seriously question Duke's clinical work. I just think you are working with the wrong IT;-) regards - thomas On 26/06/2010 19:28, William E Hammond wrote: Hi Thomas, I am now back at Duke in a full time capacity. The work within HL7 is being lead by Ken Kawamoto from Duke, a colleague of mine. Duke has one fo the best clinical research enterprises in the world - the Duke Clinical Research Institute and the new Duke Translational Medical Institute, where the Duke Center for Health Informatics is based. We have asignificant weffort committed to defining detailed clinical content. I'd say let's postpone the decision (as ever) for a couple of years and see if we are as bad as you think. Actullay, we have an effort similar to Evelyn's and look forward to working with her. * * -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/private/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20100626/2a8929f5/attachment.html
Decision Support Providers
Actually, my e-mail was more of a hello. I didn't think you were giving Duke a hard time. Our approach is similiar to what you are doing, however, we are focusing at the atomic level. Building from that is simply a construct. It will be i nteresting to find out what stays packaged and what breaks out. My approach is to make the data independent of the construction. If the data element is never dealth with without thw full structure we will keep it packaged; else not. I think we let our experiences influence how we move forward. But as you know, I try to pay attention to what everyone is doin g so I can use the best approaches. W. Ed Hammond, Ph.D. Director, Duke Center for Health Informatics Thomas Beale thomas.beale at oce aninformatics.com To openehr-technical at openehr.org Sent by: cc openehr-technical -bounces at openehr. Subject org Re: Decision Support Providers 06/26/2010 04:16 PM Please respond to For openEHR technical discussions openehr-technica l at openehr.org Hi Ed, I didn't say it was bad (it is probably very good) - I said it was 'fixed'. Like CCR - which as far as I understand is very good domain modelling - but also pretty fixed. The debate here is about 'how' not 'what'. If I was working on the vMR in HL7 right now, the first thing I would do would be to copy exactly the content you have modelled in the diagram I referred to - in to archetypes and templates. Then I would get for free: the ability to change it with no changes to any reference model (information remains valid) the ability to add completely new things, also without requiring any changes in the underlying information model the ability to query everything in a generic fashion using queries based directly on the domain models This argument is the same as with all the *MIMs in HL7 - as a technology I don't think they work, but I don't question their content (in most cases I am not competent to do that). I would really love the opportunity to show you how nice this model could be if modelled in archetypes in an openEHR system. You would get just what you want with much greater flexibility. Please don't think I would seriously question Duke's clinical work. I just think you are working with the wrong IT;-) regards - thomas On 26/06/2010 19:28, William E Hammond wrote: Hi Thomas, I am now back at Duke in a full time capacity. The work within HL7 is being lead by Ken Kawamoto from Duke, a colleague of mine. Duke has one fo the best clinical research enterprises in the world - the Duke Clinical Research Institute and the new Duke Translational Medical Institute, where the Duke Center for Health Informatics is based. We have asignificant weffort committed to defining detailed clinical content. I'd say let's postpone the decision (as ever) for a couple of years and see if we are as bad as you think. Actullay, we have an effort similar to Evelyn's and look forward to working with her. ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at openehr.org http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical
