Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
I tried their vodka with 0% alcohol. (You can imagine the experience on your own, I cannot describe it with words). Actually know the guys, my favorite danes. Cheers On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz < jose.marcio...@gmail.com> wrote: > Christopher Chan wrote: > >> On Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:19 PM, Gabriel de la Cruz wrote: >> > > If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in >>> my terms certain form of honor. >>> >> >> Thanks, I know that one and I would heartily accept if you were here but >> with a glass of wine as I get beer rashes. (We are very different :p) >> > > Me too, I prefer wine, but What about FOSB (Free Open Source Beer) ? > > http://freebeer.org > http://www.superflex.net/projects/freebeer/ > > There isn't yet FOSW. 8-( > > OK, it's getting really OT. > > A+ > > > > > > ___ > OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list > OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
Christopher Chan wrote: On Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:19 PM, Gabriel de la Cruz wrote: If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in my terms certain form of honor. Thanks, I know that one and I would heartily accept if you were here but with a glass of wine as I get beer rashes. (We are very different :p) Me too, I prefer wine, but What about FOSB (Free Open Source Beer) ? http://freebeer.org http://www.superflex.net/projects/freebeer/ There isn't yet FOSW. 8-( OK, it's getting really OT. A+ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
On Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:19 PM, Gabriel de la Cruz wrote: Dear Mr Christopher Chan Different points of view, remarks, or complains of any short from person to person shouldn't be understood as serious faults to the honor of anyone, as long as we do not involve insults. In my opinion all wounds from the previous fire should be now cured, and I honestly don't think the current thread even points out to the past. I just lost context because I treated Gary's post here as a new thread. I did not realize Jose was ranting about Garrett's displeasure with the current state of affairs. Hence why I said "what seems to be a sarcastic" because it, by itself, is not sarcastic but if coupled with the rant, it could be but I was not sure. I am sure you would have noticed that I was just trying to feel Jose out. For whatever that might have cause disturbance for you, I should apologize. After analyzing the situation for some time I would like to highlight the possibility of cultural or interdisciplinary misunderstandings in the back-end of the current conflict. Probably we are misunderstanding certain responses as more insulting than what they really are for the one expressing them. It is obvious that we talk the same language, but probably we are missing the real meaning of things. In Europe the use of irony is very frequent, for example French are specially difficult in that sense, they could spend the whole day throwing subliminal irony over you and still be your best friends. And yes they complain, all the time, for everything. If a french guy mocks at you by twisting the nicest poetry, you are not supposed to get angry but probably you are expected to pay back, but always between the lines, not really fighting back. Another example all the way around could be expressions like; "chéng zhǎng", if translated as "grow up" could be pretty humiliating at some places in Europe, while is not as harsh if you read it in Chinese. Just for your information, I maybe ethnic Chinese physically but I sure am not Chinese. I understand quite clearly what 'Grow up!' implies and I have absolutely no idea what 'cheng zhang' means or rather I can only guess at what the equivalent of 'cheng' would be in Cantonese but I am completely lost about 'zhang'. You could say that I am more African than I am Chinese even though I have spent the last twenty or so years in Hong Kong. I meet daily with designers and we appreciate non sense commentaries as it is efficient while brainstorming, as well we like the conversations to be free from any form of censorship or even moderation as may things could otherwise just vanish. You may have noticed that I specifically said we cannot have Jose or anybody else keeping their mouths shut when they have something to say. The relationship with respect and figures of authority are not the same all around the world, I never had the pleasure to visit Hong Kong, but I can share some curiosities from the time I was living in Beijing; I remember I was hanging around Renmin University during a whole summer, I was meeting daily one of the persons who were coordinating the foreign students, as I was joining some interesting lectures and excursions just because of my own interest. That person asumed I was student because of the fact I was meeting regularly with the group of Finnish students, and kept all the way treating me with a very official attitude, he was sweating under the sun with me but kept all the time a perfectly correct manners, not even showing he needed water. But one of those extremely hot days, he realized I was a faculty member, not a student, so he suddenly relaxed completely down and was finally able to enjoy the time together. He didn't need to show his position anymore... We had quite much better time after this moment. This might seem very normal for a chinese, but to me it was all a discovery!. Probably I have been mistreating my Chinese student for years, treating him as if he was just my self.. I have no idea what 'mainland' Chinese thinking is like but I daresay that in some (most?) respects it would be way better than the narrow-mindedness of a good portion of the local Hong Kong population (local Chinese and Pakistani communities especially - strange that they also invariably make up the poorer sections of Hong Kong) except for maybe certain community etiquette like queuing up for a bus. What I came to say is, we are very different, I do not think there is bad intention anywhere in this list, people complains when they have to, but within some limits. Respect does not take the same form everywhere, we should just apply a *presumption of innocence* concept, no one is guilty unless we can prove something else. If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in my terms certain form of honor. Thanks, I know that one and I would heartily accept if you were here but with a glass of wine as I get beer rashes. (We are very
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
On Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:09 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: Christopher Chan wrote: On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: Christopher Chan wrote: On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote: In what way did I flame Gary? If expressing my opinion equates flaming then I feel very sorry for you. In fact, if you want an example of a flame, maybe what seems to be a sarcastic reply higher up seems to smack of a flame more than my reply since I did not imply anything about Gary. Errr... You didn't flame him. "I" was flamed as I posted a message at oi-dev list, which was considered out of topic. Oh, that was what you were referring to. Well, I better wave my hands as on of those fools who use Openindiana in production. Read the thread started by Garrett d'Amore in oi-dev archives. It's interesting. I agree with Garrett. I am subscribed. Subscribed after Garrett let off some steam on IRC and was told to post to oi-dev. Being supported by some commercial companies is surely better than having to work in a team with very constrained resources. And, IMHO, one surely shall agree that people working on openindiana/illumos shall get some benefit from their work. Ther's no free lunch... ;-) Oh of course. We can't have that. If everybody stays mum then how can we get a list of ideas for vetting? For now I think we should stop worrying about where innovation will come from and concentrate on keeping Openindiana relevant. Yesss... People should try to find the better roadmap to ensure illumos and openindiana will survive. But I arrived to an age (> 50) when I haven't any more time to discuss with kids wanting to flame me for netiquette issues. LOL. I'll get off your lawn now. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
On Monday, November 22, 2010 04:11 AM, Gary wrote: On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: There are two kind of innovations : some which is the rewrite of something which where already exists elsewhere (e.g. zfs under FreeBSD), and, I actually tried looking at that for a short time -- is it any good? How about the port to NetBSD? We're using NexentaStor licensed and community editions in production but I was merely trying to learn what features of ZFS they've implemented (not counting the newest ones found only in Solaris Express 11). It looks like the Wikipedia entry is fairly current as I haven't looked at it in a while. FreeBSD's performance is way under par according to testing by zfsbuilds. But the FreeBSD guys claim old distro because FreeNAS was based on an older FreeBSD release then current so ymmv. For the moment, Illumos has one one distrib : OpenIndiana. The main goal now shall be to survive. AFAIK, SchilliX is thus far the only distribution based on Illumos as work to build OI on Illumos is still in progress. But I hope OpenIndiana and Illumos will find the way to cooperate and create a very good OS. Hear, hear! +1 ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: > Errr... You didn't flame him. "I" was flamed as I posted a message at oi-dev > list, which was considered out of topic. Asbestos vests for everyone! > There are two kind of innovations : some which is the rewrite of something > which where already exists elsewhere (e.g. zfs under FreeBSD), and, I actually tried looking at that for a short time -- is it any good? How about the port to NetBSD? We're using NexentaStor licensed and community editions in production but I was merely trying to learn what features of ZFS they've implemented (not counting the newest ones found only in Solaris Express 11). It looks like the Wikipedia entry is fairly current as I haven't looked at it in a while. > The number of installations is just one factor to get support, not the whole > history. If you try to convince someone to invest, the number of > installations may be one, but not the only one, indicator of the potential > ROI. Sure, in many cases, it may not be the most important one. The best response I've had re OpenIndiana is from a private mailing list I'm on with a bunch of friends and former coworkers -- many of them former or current Solaris admins. He said, "You [the OI community] are doing God's work." > Other OSs arrive to survive with less massive support, e.g., FreeBSD. However, all the BSD derivatives are based on work that has a much longer history than Linux -- and in fact ties in directly with Sun since Bill Joy went on to co-found Sun Microsystems. > For the moment, Illumos has one one distrib : OpenIndiana. > The main goal now shall be to survive. AFAIK, SchilliX is thus far the only distribution based on Illumos as work to build OI on Illumos is still in progress. > But I hope OpenIndiana and Illumos will find the way to cooperate and create > a very good OS. Hear, hear! kind regards, Gary ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
Your last argument could be only refuted by Monty Python, when Brian states: "We are all different"... everybody agrees but a guy from the back rises the hand and answers "not me". Everyone else is special but that guy. Cheers On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Michael Stapleton < michael.staple...@techsologic.com> wrote: > Very nice Gabriel. > > I for one would be happy to share a beer with you or anyone else who is > on this list for that matter. I think it's safe to say that anyone one > who is on this list is a little special. I think it's also safe to say > that we all share a common desire to see this great OS continue to be > so. Considering what has happed to OpenSolaris and SUN, It's > understandable and forgivable for one to become frustrated and > defensive. I certainly feel that way at times. > > > > Mike > > P.S. > > Yes, the word "special" can be interpreted in many ways, and they > probably all somewhat apply. ;-) > > > > > > On Sun, 2010-11-21 at 16:19 +0200, Gabriel de la Cruz wrote: > > > Dear Mr Christopher Chan > > > > Different points of view, remarks, or complains of any short from person > to > > person shouldn't be understood as serious faults to the honor of anyone, > as > > long as we do not involve insults. In my opinion all wounds from the > > previous fire should be now cured, and I honestly don't think the current > > thread even points out to the past. > > For whatever that might have cause disturbance for you, I should > apologize. > > After analyzing the situation for some time I would like to highlight the > > possibility of cultural or interdisciplinary misunderstandings in the > > back-end of the current conflict. Probably we are misunderstanding > certain > > responses as more insulting than what they really are for the one > expressing > > them. It is obvious that we talk the same language, but probably we are > > missing the real meaning of things. In Europe the use of irony is very > > frequent, for example French are specially difficult in that sense, they > > could spend the whole day throwing subliminal irony over you and still be > > your best friends. And yes they complain, all the time, for everything. > If a > > french guy mocks at you by twisting the nicest poetry, you are not > supposed > > to get angry but probably you are expected to pay back, but always > between > > the lines, not really fighting back. Another example all the way around > > could be expressions like; "chéng zhǎng", if translated as "grow up" > could > > be pretty humiliating at some places in Europe, while is not as harsh if > you > > read it in Chinese. > > I meet daily with designers and we appreciate non sense commentaries as > it > > is efficient while brainstorming, as well we like the conversations to be > > free from any form of censorship or even moderation as may things could > > otherwise just vanish. > > The relationship with respect and figures of authority are not the same > all > > around the world, I never had the pleasure to visit Hong Kong, but I can > > share some curiosities from the time I was living in Beijing; I remember > I > > was hanging around Renmin University during a whole summer, I was meeting > > daily one of the persons who were coordinating the foreign students, as I > > was joining some interesting lectures and excursions just because of my > own > > interest. That person asumed I was student because of the fact I was > meeting > > regularly with the group of Finnish students, and kept all the way > treating > > me with a very official attitude, he was sweating under the sun with me > but > > kept all the time a perfectly correct manners, not even showing he needed > > water. But one of those extremely hot days, he realized I was a faculty > > member, not a student, so he suddenly relaxed completely down and was > > finally able to enjoy the time together. He didn't need to show his > position > > anymore... We had quite much better time after this moment. This might > seem > > very normal for a chinese, but to me it was all a discovery!. Probably I > > have been mistreating my Chinese student for years, treating him as if he > > was just my self.. > > What I came to say is, we are very different, I do not think there is bad > > intention anywhere in this list, people complains when they have to, but > > within some limits. Respect does not take the same form everywhere, we > > should just apply a *presumption of innocence* concept, no one is guilty > > unless we can prove something else. > > > > If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in > my > > terms certain form of honor. > > > > All the best > > Gabriel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Christopher Chan < > > christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote: > > > > > On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz > wrote: > > > > > >> Christopher Chan wrote: > > >> > > >>> On Saturday, November 20, 2010
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
Very nice Gabriel. I for one would be happy to share a beer with you or anyone else who is on this list for that matter. I think it's safe to say that anyone one who is on this list is a little special. I think it's also safe to say that we all share a common desire to see this great OS continue to be so. Considering what has happed to OpenSolaris and SUN, It's understandable and forgivable for one to become frustrated and defensive. I certainly feel that way at times. Mike P.S. Yes, the word "special" can be interpreted in many ways, and they probably all somewhat apply. ;-) On Sun, 2010-11-21 at 16:19 +0200, Gabriel de la Cruz wrote: > Dear Mr Christopher Chan > > Different points of view, remarks, or complains of any short from person to > person shouldn't be understood as serious faults to the honor of anyone, as > long as we do not involve insults. In my opinion all wounds from the > previous fire should be now cured, and I honestly don't think the current > thread even points out to the past. > For whatever that might have cause disturbance for you, I should apologize. > After analyzing the situation for some time I would like to highlight the > possibility of cultural or interdisciplinary misunderstandings in the > back-end of the current conflict. Probably we are misunderstanding certain > responses as more insulting than what they really are for the one expressing > them. It is obvious that we talk the same language, but probably we are > missing the real meaning of things. In Europe the use of irony is very > frequent, for example French are specially difficult in that sense, they > could spend the whole day throwing subliminal irony over you and still be > your best friends. And yes they complain, all the time, for everything. If a > french guy mocks at you by twisting the nicest poetry, you are not supposed > to get angry but probably you are expected to pay back, but always between > the lines, not really fighting back. Another example all the way around > could be expressions like; "chéng zhǎng", if translated as "grow up" could > be pretty humiliating at some places in Europe, while is not as harsh if you > read it in Chinese. > I meet daily with designers and we appreciate non sense commentaries as it > is efficient while brainstorming, as well we like the conversations to be > free from any form of censorship or even moderation as may things could > otherwise just vanish. > The relationship with respect and figures of authority are not the same all > around the world, I never had the pleasure to visit Hong Kong, but I can > share some curiosities from the time I was living in Beijing; I remember I > was hanging around Renmin University during a whole summer, I was meeting > daily one of the persons who were coordinating the foreign students, as I > was joining some interesting lectures and excursions just because of my own > interest. That person asumed I was student because of the fact I was meeting > regularly with the group of Finnish students, and kept all the way treating > me with a very official attitude, he was sweating under the sun with me but > kept all the time a perfectly correct manners, not even showing he needed > water. But one of those extremely hot days, he realized I was a faculty > member, not a student, so he suddenly relaxed completely down and was > finally able to enjoy the time together. He didn't need to show his position > anymore... We had quite much better time after this moment. This might seem > very normal for a chinese, but to me it was all a discovery!. Probably I > have been mistreating my Chinese student for years, treating him as if he > was just my self.. > What I came to say is, we are very different, I do not think there is bad > intention anywhere in this list, people complains when they have to, but > within some limits. Respect does not take the same form everywhere, we > should just apply a *presumption of innocence* concept, no one is guilty > unless we can prove something else. > > If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in my > terms certain form of honor. > > All the best > Gabriel > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Christopher Chan < > christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote: > > > On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: > > > >> Christopher Chan wrote: > >> > >>> On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote: > >>> > >> > >> > I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest > someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do you > quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry confirmed > sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook > sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has > regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half > dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
Dear Mr Christopher Chan Different points of view, remarks, or complains of any short from person to person shouldn't be understood as serious faults to the honor of anyone, as long as we do not involve insults. In my opinion all wounds from the previous fire should be now cured, and I honestly don't think the current thread even points out to the past. For whatever that might have cause disturbance for you, I should apologize. After analyzing the situation for some time I would like to highlight the possibility of cultural or interdisciplinary misunderstandings in the back-end of the current conflict. Probably we are misunderstanding certain responses as more insulting than what they really are for the one expressing them. It is obvious that we talk the same language, but probably we are missing the real meaning of things. In Europe the use of irony is very frequent, for example French are specially difficult in that sense, they could spend the whole day throwing subliminal irony over you and still be your best friends. And yes they complain, all the time, for everything. If a french guy mocks at you by twisting the nicest poetry, you are not supposed to get angry but probably you are expected to pay back, but always between the lines, not really fighting back. Another example all the way around could be expressions like; "chéng zhǎng", if translated as "grow up" could be pretty humiliating at some places in Europe, while is not as harsh if you read it in Chinese. I meet daily with designers and we appreciate non sense commentaries as it is efficient while brainstorming, as well we like the conversations to be free from any form of censorship or even moderation as may things could otherwise just vanish. The relationship with respect and figures of authority are not the same all around the world, I never had the pleasure to visit Hong Kong, but I can share some curiosities from the time I was living in Beijing; I remember I was hanging around Renmin University during a whole summer, I was meeting daily one of the persons who were coordinating the foreign students, as I was joining some interesting lectures and excursions just because of my own interest. That person asumed I was student because of the fact I was meeting regularly with the group of Finnish students, and kept all the way treating me with a very official attitude, he was sweating under the sun with me but kept all the time a perfectly correct manners, not even showing he needed water. But one of those extremely hot days, he realized I was a faculty member, not a student, so he suddenly relaxed completely down and was finally able to enjoy the time together. He didn't need to show his position anymore... We had quite much better time after this moment. This might seem very normal for a chinese, but to me it was all a discovery!. Probably I have been mistreating my Chinese student for years, treating him as if he was just my self.. What I came to say is, we are very different, I do not think there is bad intention anywhere in this list, people complains when they have to, but within some limits. Respect does not take the same form everywhere, we should just apply a *presumption of innocence* concept, no one is guilty unless we can prove something else. If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in my terms certain form of honor. All the best Gabriel On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Christopher Chan < christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote: > On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: > >> Christopher Chan wrote: >> >>> On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote: >>> >> >> I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do you quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry confirmed sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two content providers, and two developers? Or does it have 10 million unique visitors every day and therefore have ten million and six users? Whenever I see this comment it boggles my mind -- especially when in the context of Unix systems regardless of flavor. For example, the commercial OSes that have sold licenses based on 10 users or unlimited users. Ten users of what? Shell accounts? Ten entries in the password file? What does that mean and how can you claim that one OS has more "users" than any another? >>> I think we can safely assume this to mean installations. Number of >>> people that actually use the installation would seriously inflate the >>> numbers. If we go by the latter, you have more than 750 users of >>> OpenIndiana already from just my installations al
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
Christopher Chan wrote: On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: Christopher Chan wrote: On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote: In what way did I flame Gary? If expressing my opinion equates flaming then I feel very sorry for you. In fact, if you want an example of a flame, maybe what seems to be a sarcastic reply higher up seems to smack of a flame more than my reply since I did not imply anything about Gary. Errr... You didn't flame him. "I" was flamed as I posted a message at oi-dev list, which was considered out of topic. Read the thread started by Garrett d'Amore in oi-dev archives. It's interesting. I agree with Garrett. http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2010-November/ So they are not innovations that sprung out of nothing but when doing something new by integrating existing technology to bring about a more comprehensive experience sure counts in my book. There are two kind of innovations : some which is the rewrite of something which where already exists elsewhere (e.g. zfs under FreeBSD), and, something which doesn't exists nowhere (e.g. dtrace when it was created at Sun), or something which needs some research work to validate (e.g., a new thread scheduling model for the kernel). Adding KDE to OI is integration (or some similar word), not innovation. Integration may still be a hard work and it's something which may be absolutely necessary too. postfix was written from scratch without any existing user base by Wietse for IBM. Upstart in Ubuntu likewise for Canonical. So too reiserfs for an example of something in a kernel for DARPA. Linux itself had zero commercial support in the beginning. The number of installations or the number of users does not necessarily have any contributing factor to whether some 'big company' will support the research and development of something. The Linux kernel was offered an enhancement feature by a single person who was not a C programmer by trade. I am not saying that this is the way to go but that we should not preclude innovation (features from scratch as written in your book) coming from seemingly impossibly resource constrained sources. Wietse was hired by IBM after he wrote vmail, which eventually become postfix, - am I wrong ? Maybe my memory is confused, but both Wietse and Linus begun alone their creation, without any support other than desire to do something new. The number of installations is just one factor to get support, not the whole history. If you try to convince someone to invest, the number of installations may be one, but not the only one, indicator of the potential ROI. Sure, in many cases, it may not be the most important one. Being supported by some commercial companies is surely better than having to work in a team with very constrained resources. And, IMHO, one surely shall agree that people working on openindiana/illumos shall get some benefit from their work. Ther's no free lunch... ;-) Linux is a good example. It seems to me that Linux developpement is supported by many companies, both kernel (look at contribs to kernel) and distributions (the best example is Fedora). Other OSs arrive to survive with less massive support, e.g., FreeBSD. If you compare OI/Illumos with Linux, there is a big difference. Linux is already well established with several teams working on the kernel and distributions. For the moment, Illumos has one one distrib : OpenIndiana. The main goal now shall be to survive. Well, I'll close my mouth, from now... We can't have that. If everybody stays mum then how can we get a list of ideas for vetting? For now I think we should stop worrying about where innovation will come from and concentrate on keeping Openindiana relevant. Yesss... People should try to find the better roadmap to ensure illumos and openindiana will survive. But I arrived to an age (> 50) when I haven't any more time to discuss with kids wanting to flame me for netiquette issues. But I hope OpenIndiana and Illumos will find the way to cooperate and create a very good OS. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: Christopher Chan wrote: On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote: I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do you quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry confirmed sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two content providers, and two developers? Or does it have 10 million unique visitors every day and therefore have ten million and six users? Whenever I see this comment it boggles my mind -- especially when in the context of Unix systems regardless of flavor. For example, the commercial OSes that have sold licenses based on 10 users or unlimited users. Ten users of what? Shell accounts? Ten entries in the password file? What does that mean and how can you claim that one OS has more "users" than any another? I think we can safely assume this to mean installations. Number of people that actually use the installation would seriously inflate the numbers. If we go by the latter, you have more than 750 users of OpenIndiana already from just my installations alone. Thanks Chris, you've perfectly understook this even without knowing the context I said it. In some communities it's becoming really hard to open your mouth without risking to be flamed... In what way did I flame Gary? If expressing my opinion equates flaming then I feel very sorry for you. In fact, if you want an example of a flame, maybe what seems to be a sarcastic reply higher up seems to smack of a flame more than my reply since I did not imply anything about Gary. But in the context, I told that if OI wants to innovate, a support from some big companies is a requirement. And to explain what innovate means, in my mind, I'm thinking about things like improving the kernel threads model, or creating new features, *from scratch* as did Sun, features like ZFS, DTrace, zones and so... Examples of inovation mentionned at oi-dev list are adding KDE, or removing the question "are you in a sub net" when using "zlogin -C" for the first time. In my mind, these are just examples of integration solutions, hacks, or similar things, not innovations... So they are not innovations that sprung out of nothing but when doing something new by integrating existing technology to bring about a more comprehensive experience sure counts in my book. So, to really innovate, at research level, you shall be funded and supported by someone, with a team big enough and with required skills... Not just a small hand of integrators, as it seems we have here. Examples of FOSS supported by big companies are are Fedora, postfix, sendmail (for some time) ... And, as I said, if the number of, say, installations, is very low, it's harder to get some support from big companies... postfix was written from scratch without any existing user base by Wietse for IBM. Upstart in Ubuntu likewise for Canonical. So too reiserfs for an example of something in a kernel for DARPA. Linux itself had zero commercial support in the beginning. The number of installations or the number of users does not necessarily have any contributing factor to whether some 'big company' will support the research and development of something. The Linux kernel was offered an enhancement feature by a single person who was not a C programmer by trade. I am not saying that this is the way to go but that we should not preclude innovation (features from scratch as written in your book) coming from seemingly impossibly resource constrained sources. Just a complement, I'm not expecting OI to remain, in the future, fully compatible with Solaris, as I think it will undoubtely diverge. I expect OI to be just an alternative to Oracle Solaris. In the same way that creating a new OS 100 % compatible with Microsoft Windows is something nobody is looking for. Well, I'll close my mouth, from now... We can't have that. If everybody stays mum then how can we get a list of ideas for vetting? For now I think we should stop worrying about where innovation will come from and concentrate on keeping Openindiana relevant. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
Christopher Chan wrote: On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote: I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do you quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry confirmed sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two content providers, and two developers? Or does it have 10 million unique visitors every day and therefore have ten million and six users? Whenever I see this comment it boggles my mind -- especially when in the context of Unix systems regardless of flavor. For example, the commercial OSes that have sold licenses based on 10 users or unlimited users. Ten users of what? Shell accounts? Ten entries in the password file? What does that mean and how can you claim that one OS has more "users" than any another? I think we can safely assume this to mean installations. Number of people that actually use the installation would seriously inflate the numbers. If we go by the latter, you have more than 750 users of OpenIndiana already from just my installations alone. Thanks Chris, you've perfectly understook this even without knowing the context I said it. In some communities it's becoming really hard to open your mouth without risking to be flamed... But in the context, I told that if OI wants to innovate, a support from some big companies is a requirement. And to explain what innovate means, in my mind, I'm thinking about things like improving the kernel threads model, or creating new features, *from scratch* as did Sun, features like ZFS, DTrace, zones and so... Examples of inovation mentionned at oi-dev list are adding KDE, or removing the question "are you in a sub net" when using "zlogin -C" for the first time. In my mind, these are just examples of integration solutions, hacks, or similar things, not innovations... So, to really innovate, at research level, you shall be funded and supported by someone, with a team big enough and with required skills... Not just a small hand of integrators, as it seems we have here. Examples of FOSS supported by big companies are are Fedora, postfix, sendmail (for some time) ... And, as I said, if the number of, say, installations, is very low, it's harder to get some support from big companies... Just a complement, I'm not expecting OI to remain, in the future, fully compatible with Solaris, as I think it will undoubtely diverge. I expect OI to be just an alternative to Oracle Solaris. In the same way that creating a new OS 100 % compatible with Microsoft Windows is something nobody is looking for. Well, I'll close my mouth, from now... Regards, José-Marcio ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote: On Fri, Nov 19, 2010, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz on the OI dev list wrote: The hard point is that the number of current solaris users is far below the number of linux users. I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do you quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry confirmed sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two content providers, and two developers? Or does it have 10 million unique visitors every day and therefore have ten million and six users? Whenever I see this comment it boggles my mind -- especially when in the context of Unix systems regardless of flavor. For example, the commercial OSes that have sold licenses based on 10 users or unlimited users. Ten users of what? Shell accounts? Ten entries in the password file? What does that mean and how can you claim that one OS has more "users" than any another? I think we can safely assume this to mean installations. Number of people that actually use the installation would seriously inflate the numbers. If we go by the latter, you have more than 750 users of OpenIndiana already from just my installations alone. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] [oi-dev] [illumos-Developer] OpenIndiana and illumos, part 2
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz on the OI dev list wrote: > The hard point is that the number of current solaris users is far below the > number of linux users. I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do you quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry confirmed sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two content providers, and two developers? Or does it have 10 million unique visitors every day and therefore have ten million and six users? Whenever I see this comment it boggles my mind -- especially when in the context of Unix systems regardless of flavor. For example, the commercial OSes that have sold licenses based on 10 users or unlimited users. Ten users of what? Shell accounts? Ten entries in the password file? What does that mean and how can you claim that one OS has more "users" than any another? -Gary ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
