Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Richard L. Hamilton]

> On Dec 12, 2015, at 23:44, Alan Coopersmith  
> wrote:
> 
> On 12/12/15 07:03 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
>> Both of these appear to be due to incorrectly configured mail clients. The
>> second may be a matter of (bad!) taste.  The first, being uncommon, is more 
>> than
>> likely a problem with the client.
> 
> And as annoying as both may be, is it worse than making the list so hostile 
> that
> the very small community you have shrinks even further because no one wants to
> participate at the risk of being flamed for their mail client?  Surely there's
> more important things to spend time on than typing in all those replies.
> 
>   -alan-


Usenet etiquette to post in a way easiest for the reader (rather than for the 
poster) has long ago broken down most places.  The poor support in many clients 
for proper replies and for posting with edited quotes and inline/bottom 
responses simply reflects the laziness of the vast majority of posters (not 
necessarily here, but everywhere).

It is certainly helpful if those that can do it with available clients, do it 
right.  But there will be circumstances when the choice is using an unhelpful 
client and posting as may be, or forgetting a perhaps salient point and not 
posting at all (before e.g. getting home where a better client might be 
available).



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Jason Matthews]

> On Dec 12, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Alan Coopersmith  
> wrote:
> 
> And as annoying as both may be, is it worse than making the list so hostile 
> that
> the very small community you have shrinks even further because no one wants to
> participate at the risk of being flamed for their mail client?  Surely there's
> more important things to spend time on than typing in all those replies.

Crap. I don't know if I am doing this right, but I agree with Alan. 

My iPhone seems to want to top post. I am living in fear of being banned now. 
Awesome. 

Sent from my iPhone


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Jerry Kemp]

Hello Robert,

Interesting concern.

And I'm not voting against your issue, but I am wondering out loud how many 
blind & visually impaired OpenIndiana users we have here?


FWIW, its been some time, but I did provide support for several legally blind 
individuals in a past life at a $GOVT $WORK position.


Even from that experience, as long as things remain readable via ASCII text, I 
wouldn't think that accessibility would be an issue, unless you are aware of 
something that would now make it an issue.  Again, it has been several years for me.


Jerry


On 12/13/15 05:06 AM, Private openbabel wrote:

Dear All,

I am concerned that accessibility for the blind and visually impaired should be
maintained at all times.

Robert Jones




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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Alexander Pyhalov]

Nikola M писал 12.12.2015 23:45:

On 12/12/15 02:24 AM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:
My long standing rule is swap = 8 x core.  This is primarily to 
accommodate having a large number of PDFs and other processes open

Hello
A bit of a small warning to community members posting on OI mailing
lists. Please respond on mailing list using non-broken mail clients
and see if you can respond inside of the topic.
( instead one should be hitting Hitting _Reply_ in mail client, like
Thunderbird, if it is not on your toolbar, right-click->customize).



People, perhaps it's not the best place to discuss MUAs? You can do it 
privately if needed.

Please, let's stop this thread.
---
System Administrator of Southern Federal University Computer Center

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Private openbabel]

Dear All,

I am concerned that accessibility for the blind and visually impaired 
should be maintained at all times.


Robert Jones




On 13/12/2015 07:42, Nikola M wrote:

On 12/13/15 05:44 AM, Alan Coopersmith wrote:

On 12/12/15 07:03 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
Both of these appear to be due to incorrectly configured mail 
clients. The
second may be a matter of (bad!) taste.  The first, being uncommon, 
is more than

likely a problem with the client.


And as annoying as both may be, is it worse than making the list so 
hostile that
the very small community you have shrinks even further because no one 
wants to
participate at the risk of being flamed for their mail client? Surely 
there's

more important things to spend time on than typing in all those replies.


Sorry people need to learn to use their mail clients.
If community is to develop and grow in positive way and possibly have 
an web representation of mailing list in the future, individuals that 
are doig it wrong on the list and they are informed on it, should be 
informed to do it right so that everyone is happy and list is not 
trashed.


It absolutely has nothing to do with "hostility" , on the oposite, it 
is being friendly and positive and understanding recognizing the issue 
and help people not to repeat same mistakes.
If it would be hostile, people would be temporarely banned from 
posting after being informed to correct posting mistake and not doing 
something about it. If one recognize the problem and keeps doing th 
same thing, it is then aganst community goals of having civile 
environment and may and may not be intentional.


Also well-behaved and civile community is much more important then 
someone's personal opinion that laziness to fix it's own problem has 
anything to do with OI. Also it is of most importance to inform 
Newcomers that being polite and helpful is valued and ignoring 
technical problems (especially when it has nothing to do with OI 
mailinfg lists) is not.
So using one's own mail client is not connected with Openindiana 
whatsoever.



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Nikola M]

On 12/13/15 12:52 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote:

Hello Robert,

Interesting concern.

And I'm not voting against your issue, but I am wondering out loud how 
many blind & visually impaired OpenIndiana users we have here?


I don't think that nuber of such users is some important information,
they should be supported and contributions to OI should take into 
account their needs

if at least there are any of them around.

Even from that experience, as long as things remain readable via ASCII 
text, I wouldn't think that accessibility would be an issue, unless 
you are aware of something that would now make it an issue. 


I actually don't have an idea how things are going on for those user on 
OI, aether on CLI or GUI side.
Posting bugs and having blind/bad sigted people as testers and bug 
reporters could be valuable.

(and yes, IRC chatting on #openindiana on Freenode or elsewhere is fun)

Personally, i was always imagining that being UNIX admin from CLI is 
nice job position for a blind, correct me if I am wroung. (was even 
thinking of going to some clubs for local blind people, advocating such 
job repositioning)


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Alan Coopersmith]

On 12/12/15 07:03 PM, Ian Collins wrote:

Both of these appear to be due to incorrectly configured mail clients. The
second may be a matter of (bad!) taste.  The first, being uncommon, is more than
likely a problem with the client.


And as annoying as both may be, is it worse than making the list so hostile that
the very small community you have shrinks even further because no one wants to
participate at the risk of being flamed for their mail client?  Surely there's
more important things to spend time on than typing in all those replies.

-alan-

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss]

Nikola,

First of all, I do not understand what you are trying to say.I suggest that 
taking more care in your expression would help.  None of the other respondents 
seem to have agreed on your intended meaning, so I don't think I'm alone.

I started the SSD swap  thread using "compose".  In all subsequent instances I 
used "reply" in the yahoo web interface.  Since you quoted my text I assume you 
meant that I had failed to use "reply".  That is definitely NOT the case. It 
also seems quite improbable to me that anyone responded to the thread by any 
means other than "reply" in whatever mail system they are using.

I would like to suggest that there just might be a bug in the archive software 
if  posts did not show up properly in the thread hierarchy.  It might also be 
some pathology among MTAs which is confusing the archive software.

Every mail system seems to be handling line wraps  and quoting differently. 
Yahoo is maddeningly flaky.  But I found gmail to be even more annoying.  I 
dislike "top posting" but I'm not willing to reformat every email to which I 
respond.  If you have the authority and wish to ban me, please feel free to 
post an announcement that I am banned and why.

In any event, I am baffled why you find any of this "obstruction".

Reg


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Ian Collins]

Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:

Nikola,

>
> First of all, I do not understand what you are trying to say. I
> suggest that taking more care in your expression would help. None of
> the other respondents seem to have agreed on your intended meaning,
> so I don't think I'm alone.

His gripe is twofold:

1) Some poster's messages (including yours) appear as replies to the 
original post in a thread, not to the actual message being replied to.  
This completely disrupts the flow of a thread.


2) A general dislike of top-posting, which, to a lesser extent, also 
disrupts the flow of a thread.


Both of these appear to be due to incorrectly configured mail clients.  
The second may be a matter of (bad!) taste.  The first, being uncommon, 
is more than likely a problem with the client.  As the oft quotes Usenet 
adage says:


A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What's the most annoying thing on Usenet and in email?


--
Ian.


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Aurélien Larcher]

That said, to stop the distraction, I will now filter all messages
containing "top posting" to find their new home in "Trash" :P

Though... getting rid of these might truncate the [OpenIndiana-discuss] SSD
as a dedicated swap device

thread ;)

Héhé ^_^

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 1:06 AM, Nikola M  wrote:

> On 12/13/15 01:00 AM, Stefan Müller-Wilken wrote:
>
>> Nicola,
>>
>> Don't you think it might sound a little arrogant to speak out warnings to
>> others on the list just for not being able to inline
>>
> No it is not. It is arrogant to ignore polite warnings.
> That is technical problem with your client and if continued I will ask
> that all trashing mailing list be stopped from trashing it from
> maintainter, including filtering if not following simple rules and avoiding
> misuse, if you don't understand that using broken client is trashing user
> experience on this list.
>
> Top posting and not responding inside message thread is a form of trolling
> this list.
> Take a 5 minutes to register an proper mail account for free anywhere on
> internet or use proper mail client like Thunderbird. And we don't need
> unproductive discussion. It is your technical issue with your client and
> address, fix it please.
>
>
>
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-- 
---
Praise the Caffeine embeddings
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Nikola M]

On 12/13/15 01:24 AM, Aurélien Larcher wrote:

That said, to stop the distraction, I will now filter all messages
containing "top posting" to find their new home in "Trash" :P


Not to confuse people, it's everyone's mail client thing, not the list 
issue at all.
I issued explanation so that people understand that is the problem and 
to try posting inline, by htitting reply to the list.


As well as responding _under_ the quotes.
(Hehe2) ;)


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Stefan Müller-Wilken]

Nicola,

Don't you think it might sound a little arrogant to speak out warnings to 
others on the list just for not being able to inline correctly? I can't 
remember having been destructive, irrelevant or rude. As I already said, I 
simply do not have a choice to switch to a different editor as the only access 
to the net using this mail address is via OWA. I would happily use Alpine if I 
could - but I just can't. And if that was reason enough to ban I'd find that 
sad.

Cheers
 Stefan


-
Acando GmbH, Millerntorplatz 1, 20359 Hamburg, Germany | Geschäftsführer: Guido 
Ahle | Amtsgericht Hamburg, HRB 76048 | USt-IdNr.: DE208833022
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Posting inline

[Nikola M]

On 12/13/15 01:00 AM, Stefan Müller-Wilken wrote:

Nicola,

Don't you think it might sound a little arrogant to speak out warnings to 
others on the list just for not being able to inline

No it is not. It is arrogant to ignore polite warnings.
That is technical problem with your client and if continued I will ask 
that all trashing mailing list be stopped from trashing it from 
maintainter, including filtering if not following simple rules and 
avoiding misuse, if you don't understand that using broken client is 
trashing user experience on this list.


Top posting and not responding inside message thread is a form of 
trolling this list.
Take a 5 minutes to register an proper mail account for free anywhere on 
internet or use proper mail client like Thunderbird. And we don't need 
unproductive discussion. It is your technical issue with your client and 
address, fix it please.



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