Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
Oracle Solaris "is not dead", as a supported product, at least, Since it is officially supported up to year 2034. https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris11life/long-live-solaris-11-until-at-least-2034-to-be-exact http://www.oracle.com/us/support/library/lifetime-support-hardware-301321.pdf I think there is not many systems running on easy to find hardware, with such a long support cycles and providing binary compatibility for the software while upgrading. illumos is an Opensolaris continuation as Solaris 11 is. (and that is why it is still on-topic on Openindiana mailing list). And illumos distributions are active, definitely open, alive and the future is open source, long past 2034. :) https://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/Distributions So efforts are best used under illumos distributions seeing the future, which is not a surprising conclusion seeing how much more benefits open source and free software give to individuals and organizations. Interested parties looking to hire ex-Oracle Solaris related staff are welcome to do so and contribute to illumos distributions. illumos CDDL license that also permits creating file-based combined work, also suggest to using illumos in company products, is welcomed practice. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
My question was very simple and I got a simple answer. Now, Illumos is not Solaris. It is a Solaris clone. Personally, I prefer Illumos over Solaris but they are not the same thing. That Solaris is supported until 2034 does not mean that it will be able to runon hardware that will be available then. A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
On 09/ 4/17 08:18 PM, Apostolos Syropoulos wrote: My question was very simple and I got a simple answer. Now, Illumos is not Solaris. It is a Solaris clone. It is other way around if you ask me. Opensolaris gave birth to illumos, from the same exact source code as Solaris Express and then S11 did that exactly the same, adding more code to same starting point (Opensolaris snv_134 onward). So one is not the clone of another, but they are 'brothers by the mother line' if you want :P All this I write not only for you and me, but for a wider auditorium looking for the clues or searching the web, just for the record :) Personally, I prefer Illumos over Solaris but they are not the same thing. That Solaris is supported until 2034 does not mean that it will be able to run on hardware that will be available then. I would expect exactly that, to be able to run it on compatible but newer hardware, and at least on Oracle hardware, but yes, you are right - over time new hardware requires new support, drivers etc. There helps the thing, that same (even binary) drivers work for decades because Solaris driver model was established long time ago and doesn't need to change much. Even today most of drivers are shared between illumos and Oracle Solaris. One taking some SPARC machine (like T5220) from 2006/7 and trying to run latest proprietary Solaris 11 would find that it is still supported and works just fine. But yes, being 'supported' and 'working just fine' and 'working' are not same things. For example on illumos, my old Dell D620 C2Duo laptop (T5600) seems to have problems with processes being using too much cpu time, starting somewhere between January and end of March (still running OI December BE, that is the last 'working just fine'). And my wireless card is 'working' but I need to put "ath "03:08.0" ath "pci168c,2055" in /etc/driver_aliases to have ath driver pick it up. (AR5007G 802.11bg) ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
The real concern is...in the short or long period, how much support for Solaris kernels can we expect from third parties such VMware? They may completely remove the "Oracle Solaris 11 64bit" from the list of supported VMs. This may happen elsewhere, as happened recently at MongoDB. This may hurt the illumos ecosystem in the short/long term. What do you think? Sonicle S.r.l. : http://www.sonicle.com Music: http://www.gabrielebulfon.com Quantum Mechanics : http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/gabrielebulfon -- Da: Nikola M A: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Data: 4 settembre 2017 23.11.48 CEST Oggetto: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034? On 09/ 4/17 08:18 PM, Apostolos Syropoulos wrote: My question was very simple and I got a simple answer. Now, Illumos is not Solaris. It is a Solaris clone. It is other way around if you ask me. Opensolaris gave birth to illumos, from the same exact source code as Solaris Express and then S11 did that exactly the same, adding more code to same starting point (Opensolaris snv_134 onward). So one is not the clone of another, but they are 'brothers by the mother line' if you want :P All this I write not only for you and me, but for a wider auditorium looking for the clues or searching the web, just for the record :) Personally, I prefer Illumos over Solaris but they are not the same thing. That Solaris is supported until 2034 does not mean that it will be able to run on hardware that will be available then. I would expect exactly that, to be able to run it on compatible but newer hardware, and at least on Oracle hardware, but yes, you are right - over time new hardware requires new support, drivers etc. There helps the thing, that same (even binary) drivers work for decades because Solaris driver model was established long time ago and doesn't need to change much. Even today most of drivers are shared between illumos and Oracle Solaris. One taking some SPARC machine (like T5220) from 2006/7 and trying to run latest proprietary Solaris 11 would find that it is still supported and works just fine. But yes, being 'supported' and 'working just fine' and 'working' are not same things. For example on illumos, my old Dell D620 C2Duo laptop (T5600) seems to have problems with processes being using too much cpu time, starting somewhere between January and end of March (still running OI December BE, that is the last 'working just fine'). And my wireless card is 'working' but I need to put "ath "03:08.0" ath "pci168c,2055" in /etc/driver_aliases to have ath driver pick it up. (AR5007G 802.11bg) ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
On 05/09/2017 12:45, Gabriele Bulfon wrote: The real concern is...in the short or long period, how much support for Solaris kernels can we expect from third parties such VMware? They may completely remove the "Oracle Solaris 11 64bit" from the list of supported VMs. This may happen elsewhere, as happened recently at MongoDB. This may hurt the illumos ecosystem in the short/long term. What do you think? Sonicle S.r.l. I think we will this see very quickly, all third-party vendors will cease Solaris SPARC and x86 support on short notice, especially NVIDIA, which will practically end the possibility to use any illumos derivative on the desktop on a midterm timescale. Since we as a research institute depend on third-party support this will more sooner than later force us to move to Linux, regardless if we want this or not. So reality will terminate OI, only specialized use in the storage domain may survive some time, but also there driver support will sooner or later completely evaporate. -- Dr.Udo Grabowski Inst.f.Meteorology & Climate Research IMK-ASF-SAT http://www.imk-asf.kit.edu/english/sat.php KIT - Karlsruhe Institute of Technology http://www.kit.edu Postfach 3640,76021 Karlsruhe,Germany T:(+49)721 608-26026 F:-926026 ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
...you picked up my concerns...and we're already thinking about possible new paths for our XStreamOS... Sonicle S.r.l. : http://www.sonicle.com Music: http://www.gabrielebulfon.com Quantum Mechanics : http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/gabrielebulfon -- Da: Udo Grabowski (IMK) A: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Data: 5 settembre 2017 13.37.41 CEST Oggetto: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034? On 05/09/2017 12:45, Gabriele Bulfon wrote: The real concern is...in the short or long period, how much support for Solaris kernels can we expect from third parties such VMware? They may completely remove the "Oracle Solaris 11 64bit" from the list of supported VMs. This may happen elsewhere, as happened recently at MongoDB. This may hurt the illumos ecosystem in the short/long term. What do you think? Sonicle S.r.l. I think we will this see very quickly, all third-party vendors will cease Solaris SPARC and x86 support on short notice, especially NVIDIA, which will practically end the possibility to use any illumos derivative on the desktop on a midterm timescale. Since we as a research institute depend on third-party support this will more sooner than later force us to move to Linux, regardless if we want this or not. So reality will terminate OI, only specialized use in the storage domain may survive some time, but also there driver support will sooner or later completely evaporate. -- Dr.Udo Grabowski Inst.f.Meteorology &Climate Research IMK-ASF-SAT http://www.imk-asf.kit.edu/english/sat.php KIT - Karlsruhe Institute of Technology http://www.kit.edu Postfach 3640,76021 Karlsruhe,Germany T:(+49)721 608-26026 F:-926026 ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
On September 5, 2017 6:14:30 PM GMT+02:00, Gabriele Bulfon wrote: >...you picked up my concerns...and we're already thinking about >possible new paths for our XStreamOS... >Sonicle S.r.l. >: >http://www.sonicle.com >Music: >http://www.gabrielebulfon.com >Quantum Mechanics : >http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/gabrielebulfon >-- >Da: Udo Grabowski (IMK) >A: Discussion list for OpenIndiana >Data: 5 settembre 2017 13.37.41 CEST >Oggetto: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported >till 2034? >On 05/09/2017 12:45, Gabriele Bulfon wrote: >The real concern is...in the short or long period, how much support for >Solaris kernels can we expect from third parties such VMware? >They may completely remove the "Oracle Solaris 11 64bit" from the list >of supported VMs. >This may happen elsewhere, as happened recently at MongoDB. >This may hurt the illumos ecosystem in the short/long term. >What do you think? >Sonicle S.r.l. >I think we will this see very quickly, all third-party vendors >will cease Solaris SPARC and x86 support on short notice, especially >NVIDIA, which will practically end the possibility to use any illumos >derivative on the desktop on a midterm timescale. Since we as a >research institute depend on third-party support this will more >sooner than later force us to move to Linux, regardless if we want >this or not. So reality will terminate OI, only specialized use in >the storage domain may survive some time, but also there driver >support will sooner or later completely evaporate. >-- >Dr.Udo Grabowski Inst.f.Meteorology &Climate Research IMK-ASF-SAT >http://www.imk-asf.kit.edu/english/sat.php >KIT - Karlsruhe Institute of Technology http://www.kit.edu >Postfach 3640,76021 Karlsruhe,Germany T:(+49)721 608-26026 F:-926026 >___ >openindiana-discuss mailing list >openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org >https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss >___ >openindiana-discuss mailing list >openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org >https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss So we need a klx (kernel-lx) project to run linux drivers? ;) Do vendors support BSDs well?... Jim -- Typos courtesy of K-9 Mail on my Android ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
On 09/ 4/17 02:11 PM, Nikola M wrote: On 09/ 4/17 08:18 PM, Apostolos Syropoulos wrote: I would expect exactly that, to be able to run it on compatible but newer hardware, and at least on Oracle hardware, but yes, you are right - over time new hardware requires new support, drivers etc. There helps the thing, that same (even binary) drivers work for decades because Solaris driver model was established long time ago and doesn't need to change much. Even today most of drivers are shared between illumos and Oracle Solaris. While the core Device Driver Interfaces (DDI) don't need to change much, many of the higher level frameworks, such as the storage & network interfaces, do as the hardware evolves - interfaces designed for spinning SCSI disks aren't quite the same as using gobs of NVRAM as storage. While I'm not surprised you can share drivers written for Solaris 11.0, I'd be more surprised if drivers written for the latest hardware & Solaris releases just work out of the box with no effort on OI/illumos forevermore. -alan- ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
>So we need a klx (kernel-lx) project to run linux drivers? ;) > >Do vendors support BSDs well?... This is a good remark. The problem is that we need people to contribute.For example, if you have students ask them to do things for the OS as partof some project. A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
On 5 September 2017 at 12:37, Udo Grabowski (IMK) wrote: > On 05/09/2017 12:45, Gabriele Bulfon wrote: > >> The real concern is...in the short or long period, how much support for >> Solaris kernels can we expect from third parties such VMware? >> They may completely remove the "Oracle Solaris 11 64bit" from the list of >> supported VMs. >> This may happen elsewhere, as happened recently at MongoDB. >> This may hurt the illumos ecosystem in the short/long term. >> What do you think? >> Sonicle S.r.l. >> >> > I think we will this see very quickly, all third-party vendors > will cease Solaris SPARC and x86 support on short notice, especially > NVIDIA, which will practically end the possibility to use any illumos > derivative on the desktop on a midterm timescale. Since we as a > research institute depend on third-party support this will more > sooner than later force us to move to Linux, regardless if we want > this or not. So reality will terminate OI, only specialized use in > the storage domain may survive some time, but also there driver > support will sooner or later completely evaporate. > -- > Dr.Udo Grabowski Inst.f.Meteorology & Climate Research IMK-ASF-SAT > http://www.imk-asf.kit.edu/english/sat.php > KIT - Karlsruhe Institute of Technology http://www.kit.edu > Postfach 3640,76021 Karlsruhe,Germany T:(+49)721 608-26026 F:-926026 > > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > Doesn't have to be Linux, you could go the BSD route. Personally, I'm hoping the BSD projects get some love from the Solaris engineers should this come to pass. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
On 09/ 5/17 01:37 PM, Udo Grabowski (IMK) wrote: On 05/09/2017 12:45, Gabriele Bulfon wrote: The real concern is...in the short or long period, how much support for Solaris kernels can we expect from third parties such VMware? They may completely remove the "Oracle Solaris 11 64bit" from the list of supported VMs. This may happen elsewhere, as happened recently at MongoDB. This may hurt the illumos ecosystem in the short/long term. What do you think? Sonicle S.r.l. I think we will this see very quickly, all third-party vendors will cease Solaris SPARC and x86 support on short notice, especially NVIDIA, which will practically end the possibility to use any illumos derivative on the desktop on a midterm timescale. It is always related how much effort and money one is pouring toward solutions he/she use. If only looking in customer/provider relationship, but without paying for the effort or doing the effort in the process , then yes. On the other hand, maintaining Solaris and illumos drivers require much less effort. Look how strong and long-term Nvidia driver support is, exactly because of stable environment, not needing to recompile your drivers to work all the time, but add new support on top of the old one. It is exactly long term stability with working environment with illumos and the ability to innovate in a compatible way, what is main platform benefit of illumos. How fast illumos innovates and how much driver support has advanced, depends at the most part on effort and money invested in people and companies doing it. On the track of investment, both effort and money needed to maintain and innovate are much lower with illumos , while still having solid production platform, then on Linux or any other platform. Everything depending on proprietary, closed, vendor-locked products or depending on the fact if vendors themselves are even still existing, will soon or later die (like the support for older versions of proprietary OSes dies over time). Only open, free software and publicly supported , developed and available products tend to exist, work and survive over a very long periods of time. After all, Sun was big, but Sun Open sourced Opensolaris. Sun is not there, but illumos is here. That said, if wanting to surely have GUI support for modern graphics hardware, without relying on anyone, effort could be put in also supporting modern AMD graphics with open source drivers, being relatively recently almost fully open sourced for other platforms. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
In message <59070299.2462359.1504549115...@mail.yahoo.com>, Apostolos Syropoulo s via openindiana-discuss writes: >My question was very simple and I got a simple answer. Now, Illumos is not Sol You asked an off-topic question about the fate of low-volume, high-margin Oracle Solaris. Other subscribers replied with on-topic questions and comments about how the fate of a close UNIX cousin impacts OI. Its been illuminating. Would someone with Wiki access please update Tasks with the RFI/RFEs generated from this thread? * Volunteer is needed to reach out to nVidia marketing and determine what nVidia requires in installed volume to provide closed-source driver support for OI on par with high-volume, low-margin FreeBSD? https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics> * Volunteer is needed to port and package VirtualBox to OI. John groenv...@acm.org ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Gabriele Bulfon wrote: > The real concern is...in the short or long period, how much support for > Solaris kernels can we expect from third parties such VMware? > They may completely remove the "Oracle Solaris 11 64bit" from the list of > supported VMs. > This may happen elsewhere, as happened recently at MongoDB. > This may hurt the illumos ecosystem in the short/long term. > The solution here is quite simple. Make sure that the suppliers of software that you need are aware that there is demand from Solaris/illumos users. For commercial products, this involves using the product and paying for it. You can't expect vendors to spend hard cash supporting a platform that doesn't generate revenue. For open source projects, get involved. Engage with the project, submit bug reports, feedback, fixes, and generally be visible. Generally, many projects want to be as widely adopted as possible, and welcome engagement from as wide a user base as possible. For most projects out there, any offer of help will be welcomed with open arms. If we all just picked one or two of our favourite projects and dived in, that would help greatly. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
BTW all recent Solaris issues. Will try to share some of my observations. Biggest problem of the Solaris under Oracle control is on area which one one spotted up to now. Current way of providing Solaris a a product completely cuts off any education effort to learn anything about Solaris. This not started when Oracle took control of the Solaris but waaay earlier when Sun decided completely retreat from edu customers and they stopped offering even 90% (or sometimes more) discounts for software. In last 10 years this problem grew even more as there is no almost any young admins knowing anything about Solaris. Students simple cannot afford buy personal Solaris license on non-Oracle HW!!! I'm using Solaris more than decade and I remember when Oracle made decision about stop sponsoring monthly London Solaris SIG meetings asking to pay more than thousands pound a year for membership. Last year I've changed my job and now I'm spending less and less time with fully updated Solaris. There is no any Oracle offer for professionals like me which are able to use Solaris on own hardware but as they are not have constant income out of provide services on top of the Solaris to pay full licence. This is second huge class of cuts which is causing that companies are less likely able to agree on use Solaris. Even if Solaris technologically is really superior on some areas compare to Linux from point of view of companies investing money in support ii is more and more risky into Solaris engenders. *All because Oracle is slaughtering this community* or is treating them as fits wheel in the car or unwanted dogs!!! Only this completely undercuts slowly as biology is knocking out slowly but staidly) from this planet some well skilled Solaris admins. Only hope is that Solaris in form of OpenSolaris derivatives will survive and will grew its admins base to some enough critical mass. First some people must start writing more drivers for new/coming to the market hardware. Probably next step which can give new hope will be porting Solaris to AARH64 as more and more such hardware now is able to control 16GB or more RAM. IMO Oracle can spend only a little money to make OpenSolaris stronger as *edu platform* which make Oracle Solaris future more solid. On this are even Sun was crappy and Oracle sucks even more now :( In return they can and should give back some parts of the they work on some new parts to keep distance between Oracle Solaris and OpenSolaris as short as it is only possible. It should be as well kind of agreement between OpenSolaris and Oracle about incorporating some parts of the OpenSolaris development into Solaris. In other words transmissions of some goods/resources or written code should be in both directions. IMO offering to Oracle lx containers and sign of good will to incorporate into Oracle Solaris could help Oracle as they could be able make they customers be more happy about use Solaris and Linux together. Some people at least should start consider such possibility .. even if only Oracle will make possible to install OpenSolaris lx support on top of regular Oracle Solaris as non supported feature. Without such cooperation IMO Oracle Solaris will be dead way ahead already "guaranteed" 2034. kloczek -- Tomasz Kłoczko | LinkedIn: http://lnkd.in/FXPWxH ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] So is Solaris officially supported till 2034?
http://www.zdnet.com/article/sun-set-oracle-closes-down-last-sun-product-lines/ or Why Oracle has ruined everything even Iron Man! A.S. --Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
