Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Peter Tribble wrote: > For regular distros there are a couple of major resource constraints: > ZFS has a certain footprint. (Although it's somewhat overstated - I've > run zfs based systems that have 512M of memory quite happily. Not > as file servers, of course.) I think the footprint of ZFS is mostly a matter of what features you're using and how much you're scaling out. e.g., each additional filesystem requires some memory, dedup requires more memory, etc. I have in the past had problems with the ARC getting too large and causing allocation failures on a 4 GB system, but that was a fileserver with a few hundred filesystems and a heavy I/O load. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Well, you were right; however, after spending the day with the bsds, I have to conclude: They're nice; they're snappy, but they're no OpenSolaris / OI / Hipster in terms of overall usability, features and stability. We really do have an awesome thing going over here. Just need it to be smaller ;) On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 2:59 PM, David Brodbeck wrote: > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Jacob Ritorto > wrote: > > > Going to recompile the bins on bsd. > > Absolutely LOVING the keyboard. Gosh, I missed that thing. > > > > Otherwise, yeah, don't need a pc here. I admit that I'm a little nervy > > about the bsd learning curve, but, hey - it's a nice thing to pick up > along > > the way. > > > > I suspect you'll pick it up pretty easily if you have any past experience > with SunOS 4, which was based on 4.3 BSD. Non-SYSV init scripts may trip > you up a little, although FreeBSD has been moving to an "almost SYSV" sort > of setup with /etc/rc.d and /usr/local/etc/rc.d directories; dunno if > OpenBSD has followed suit. In general the *BSD distributions tend to be > very well documented, both online and inside the OS. > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Peter Tribble wrote: > If you want to get really minimalist then you could use ufs rather > than zfs. This also saves the space needed for the drivers and tools, > which isn't negligible. Tribblix again is one of the only distros to > support installation to a ufs file system, although it's been a while > since I tested it. > > I'd be interested in helping out with this, if you're motivated enough to include it on your distro. Let's talk off-list. > There's a slight difference in emphasis in the Solarish world. Because > we've been into containerization for so long, you have the model where > a larger instance runs many lightweight containers, rather than running > many standalone instances; in this world there isn't the same drive > to reduce the host footprint. So I guess it hasn't had a lot of attention. > Very true point. Maybe, in all honestly, I guess I just really miss having a good unix workstation as my daily driver. I got relocated from OI to Macintosh rather forcefully at last job and was just never terribly 'comfortable,' so to speak, since then. -j > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:49 PM, Jerry Kemp > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 02/ 1/15 01:50 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > > > > > >> Jerry Kemp wrote: > > >> > > >>> You have taken it a lot further than I would have. > > >>> > > >>> For an Ultra 5 or 10, I probably would not have gone past Solaris 10, > > >>> and due > > >>> to your ram being well under 4 Gb, I would stay on UFS vs ZFS. > > >>> > > >>> When you say "Solaris 11 install" in reference to this box, do you > mean > > >>> an > > >>> install of Sun OpenSolaris? > > >>> > > >> > > >> snv_65 is an early development build of Solaris 11 - actually more > like > > >> Solaris > > >> 10 than even the earliest Solaris 11 releases. > > >> > > >> > > > yep. Missed that part, and saw it less than 10 minutes after hitting > the > > > send button. Sun OpenSolaris Nevada build 65. > > > > > > But I still stick by my comments concerning the system RAM. If the OP > is > > > committed to this box, now is probably a great time to max out the > > memory. > > > Especially if he wants to move forward beyond OpenSolaris Nevada build > > 65. > > > > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > openindiana-discuss mailing list > > > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > > > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > > > > > ___ > > openindiana-discuss mailing list > > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > > > > > > -- > -Peter Tribble > http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
You're welcome. I got even more curious and am starting to play with FreeBSD too. Actually got the old jumpstart-style rarp/bootp/tftp/nfs install thing working since I ran out of CDs in the wee hours of the morning :\ It actually worked great. I've quite a few SPARC machines ranging from SPARC 2 to SPARC 10 to Ultra 1& 2& 5 to T1000&2000 around if I can help out with further Tribblix testing or maybe a little dev. --jake On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Peter Tribble wrote: > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Jacob Ritorto > wrote: > > > tribblix dies a few seconds after starting to boot with > > Loading: /platform/SUNW,Ultra-5_10/boot_archive > > Loading: /platform/sun4u/boot_archive > > > > Can't open boot_archive > > Fast Data Access MMU Miss > > > > Hey, thanks for testing (and the bug report...)! > > You did read the bit about "experimental", "works for me", and "only > tested on a T5140"? There's a reason those caveats apply, it hasn't > seen much testing outside my single lab box. It was only at the end of > last week that I burnt an actual iso and did a physical boot (as opposed > to running an LDOM off the iso image file). > > So this is both encouraging and discouraging. The ISO is valid (that's the > good bit) but doesn't have a boot archive it can find. OK, I can add a > symlink to get around that particular error in the build. > > You're still going to have the problem that the boot archive is too large. > I'm currently down to a 172M archive rather than 200M, but that's > really going to have to get down to ~100M before booting on a 256M > machine is viable. I can just about see how to get down to 120M, > but it's going to get more interesting beyond that. > > > > Bummer. > > > > Thanks very much, nonetheless, for keeping SPARC in mind, Peter! > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Jacob Ritorto > > wrote: > > > > > Hmm, yeah, Tribblix sounds like a great option for my purposes. Is > there > > > X support? That'd be nice so I can free up the other serial port. > > (Trying > > > to simultaneously run a serial console to the pdp11 as well as an > > emulated > > > tu58 drive via the other serial port.) I think I'll give it a whirl. > > > OpenBSD can boot from floppy and install via Internet, so that's great, > > but > > > I can't seem to find any floppies that'll still format. This is > heck-of > > > retro :) > > > > > > thx > > > jake > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Peter Tribble > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > Is it feasible to install Hipster or OI on such a meagerly > appointed > > >> > machine? I don't even have a dvd player; just cd. > > >> > > > >> > SunOS beep 5.11 snv_65 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 > > >> > Memory size: 256 Megabytes > > >> > > > >> > > >> That's a sparc box. You aren't going to be able to run OI > > >> (any version, including hipster) or most of the illumos distros. > > >> > > >> You've really got 2 options. OpenSXCE or Tribblix. > > >> > > >> http://www.opensxce.org/ > > >> http://www.tribblix.org/download.html > > >> > > >> Now, the Tribblix iso should fit on a CD. (Although to be > > >> honest that's largely accidental as I haven't built most > > >> of the packages for sparc yet.) As should the OpenSXCE > > >> text iso. > > >> > > >> The really hard part is going to be booting the CD in that > > >> small amount of memory. The root archive on the Tribblix > > >> iso is currently 200M, and that gets loaded into memory - > > >> you really don't have any space left to breathe. (I don't > > >> know offhand how big the OpenSXCE boot archive is, > > >> but it's likely to be pretty similar.) > > >> > > >> This isn't a truly fundamental problem - the root archive > > >> ends up being pretty large because it has support for > > >> everything in it by default, and it should be possible to > > >> produce a custom iso with a much smaller root archive. > > >> One of the things I'm interested in is minimal-footprint > > >> configurations, so doing that (and any other work to > > >> improve efficiency and reduce the footprint) is on my > > >> agenda, but it's going to take time. (And it's difficult > > >> for me to test, as I don't personally have any sparc > > >> hardware left that's that old or small. On x86 I think > > >> I managed to boot a custom iso in 400M and run in 256M, > > >> but there I can fiddle the settings in a VirtualBox VM.) > > >> > > >> Another way would be to use the existing OS to install > > >> a newer distro in an alternate boot environment. > > >> > > >> In any event, you're likely to be in for a modest amount > > >> of work and you're off into the weeds; the population of > > >> illumos users working on sparc is pretty small. > > >> > > >> -- > > >> -Peter Tribble > > >> http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ > > >> ___ > > >> openindiana-discuss mailing list > > >> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > > >> http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 12:58 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Wow. I just put OpenBSD on this thing and it runs like a pup. I'm really > impressed. Is anyone besides Peter working on cruft-cutting and minimal > system distribution of Illumos? If things can be this awesome on 1998 > hardware, we really should aspire to this level of KISS, tidiness and > performance in Illumos. Garrett's cutting away in illumos-core, but the snag there is that you run across the problem I mentioned in a recent talk - one person's trash is another one's treasure. So I'm not sure hacking bits out of illumos is necessarily the way; certainly in Tribblix I just use packaging to selectively ship certain components and ignore others. For regular distros there are a couple of major resource constraints: ZFS has a certain footprint. (Although it's somewhat overstated - I've run zfs based systems that have 512M of memory quite happily. Not as file servers, of course.) If you have IPS for packaging then your minimum memory requirement is going to be much higher. If you want to get really minimalist then you could use ufs rather than zfs. This also saves the space needed for the drivers and tools, which isn't negligible. Tribblix again is one of the only distros to support installation to a ufs file system, although it's been a while since I tested it. There's a slight difference in emphasis in the Solarish world. Because we've been into containerization for so long, you have the model where a larger instance runs many lightweight containers, rather than running many standalone instances; in this world there isn't the same drive to reduce the host footprint. So I guess it hasn't had a lot of attention. > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:49 PM, Jerry Kemp > wrote: > > > > > > > On 02/ 1/15 01:50 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > > > >> Jerry Kemp wrote: > >> > >>> You have taken it a lot further than I would have. > >>> > >>> For an Ultra 5 or 10, I probably would not have gone past Solaris 10, > >>> and due > >>> to your ram being well under 4 Gb, I would stay on UFS vs ZFS. > >>> > >>> When you say "Solaris 11 install" in reference to this box, do you mean > >>> an > >>> install of Sun OpenSolaris? > >>> > >> > >> snv_65 is an early development build of Solaris 11 - actually more like > >> Solaris > >> 10 than even the earliest Solaris 11 releases. > >> > >> > > yep. Missed that part, and saw it less than 10 minutes after hitting the > > send button. Sun OpenSolaris Nevada build 65. > > > > But I still stick by my comments concerning the system RAM. If the OP is > > committed to this box, now is probably a great time to max out the > memory. > > Especially if he wants to move forward beyond OpenSolaris Nevada build > 65. > > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > ___ > > openindiana-discuss mailing list > > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > tribblix dies a few seconds after starting to boot with > Loading: /platform/SUNW,Ultra-5_10/boot_archive > Loading: /platform/sun4u/boot_archive > > Can't open boot_archive > Fast Data Access MMU Miss > Hey, thanks for testing (and the bug report...)! You did read the bit about "experimental", "works for me", and "only tested on a T5140"? There's a reason those caveats apply, it hasn't seen much testing outside my single lab box. It was only at the end of last week that I burnt an actual iso and did a physical boot (as opposed to running an LDOM off the iso image file). So this is both encouraging and discouraging. The ISO is valid (that's the good bit) but doesn't have a boot archive it can find. OK, I can add a symlink to get around that particular error in the build. You're still going to have the problem that the boot archive is too large. I'm currently down to a 172M archive rather than 200M, but that's really going to have to get down to ~100M before booting on a 256M machine is viable. I can just about see how to get down to 120M, but it's going to get more interesting beyond that. > Bummer. > > Thanks very much, nonetheless, for keeping SPARC in mind, Peter! > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Jacob Ritorto > wrote: > > > Hmm, yeah, Tribblix sounds like a great option for my purposes. Is there > > X support? That'd be nice so I can free up the other serial port. > (Trying > > to simultaneously run a serial console to the pdp11 as well as an > emulated > > tu58 drive via the other serial port.) I think I'll give it a whirl. > > OpenBSD can boot from floppy and install via Internet, so that's great, > but > > I can't seem to find any floppies that'll still format. This is heck-of > > retro :) > > > > thx > > jake > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Peter Tribble > > wrote: > > > >> > Is it feasible to install Hipster or OI on such a meagerly appointed > >> > machine? I don't even have a dvd player; just cd. > >> > > >> > SunOS beep 5.11 snv_65 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 > >> > Memory size: 256 Megabytes > >> > > >> > >> That's a sparc box. You aren't going to be able to run OI > >> (any version, including hipster) or most of the illumos distros. > >> > >> You've really got 2 options. OpenSXCE or Tribblix. > >> > >> http://www.opensxce.org/ > >> http://www.tribblix.org/download.html > >> > >> Now, the Tribblix iso should fit on a CD. (Although to be > >> honest that's largely accidental as I haven't built most > >> of the packages for sparc yet.) As should the OpenSXCE > >> text iso. > >> > >> The really hard part is going to be booting the CD in that > >> small amount of memory. The root archive on the Tribblix > >> iso is currently 200M, and that gets loaded into memory - > >> you really don't have any space left to breathe. (I don't > >> know offhand how big the OpenSXCE boot archive is, > >> but it's likely to be pretty similar.) > >> > >> This isn't a truly fundamental problem - the root archive > >> ends up being pretty large because it has support for > >> everything in it by default, and it should be possible to > >> produce a custom iso with a much smaller root archive. > >> One of the things I'm interested in is minimal-footprint > >> configurations, so doing that (and any other work to > >> improve efficiency and reduce the footprint) is on my > >> agenda, but it's going to take time. (And it's difficult > >> for me to test, as I don't personally have any sparc > >> hardware left that's that old or small. On x86 I think > >> I managed to boot a custom iso in 400M and run in 256M, > >> but there I can fiddle the settings in a VirtualBox VM.) > >> > >> Another way would be to use the existing OS to install > >> a newer distro in an alternate boot environment. > >> > >> In any event, you're likely to be in for a modest amount > >> of work and you're off into the weeds; the population of > >> illumos users working on sparc is pretty small. > >> > >> -- > >> -Peter Tribble > >> http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ > >> ___ > >> openindiana-discuss mailing list > >> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > >> http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > >> > > > > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Going to recompile the bins on bsd. > Absolutely LOVING the keyboard. Gosh, I missed that thing. > > Otherwise, yeah, don't need a pc here. I admit that I'm a little nervy > about the bsd learning curve, but, hey - it's a nice thing to pick up along > the way. > I suspect you'll pick it up pretty easily if you have any past experience with SunOS 4, which was based on 4.3 BSD. Non-SYSV init scripts may trip you up a little, although FreeBSD has been moving to an "almost SYSV" sort of setup with /etc/rc.d and /usr/local/etc/rc.d directories; dunno if OpenBSD has followed suit. In general the *BSD distributions tend to be very well documented, both online and inside the OS. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Going to recompile the bins on bsd. Absolutely LOVING the keyboard. Gosh, I missed that thing. Otherwise, yeah, don't need a pc here. I admit that I'm a little nervy about the bsd learning curve, but, hey - it's a nice thing to pick up along the way. On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > > On 02/ 1/15 03:12 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > > Sure, but before spending much time on them, do bare in mind they are >> about same >> performance as a 15-20 year old Pentium II system. >> >> You could probably move all their workloads to a single current x86 >> system, and >> have loads of CPU capacity left over, and consume less power than a >> single Ultra 5. >> >> >> > How would the OP be able to use his RISC binaries? Or utilize his Sun > Type 4 keyboard? > > It seems like a move to x86 might introduce more problems than it would > solve. > > Jerry > > > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Wow. I just put OpenBSD on this thing and it runs like a pup. I'm really impressed. Is anyone besides Peter working on cruft-cutting and minimal system distribution of Illumos? If things can be this awesome on 1998 hardware, we really should aspire to this level of KISS, tidiness and performance in Illumos. On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:49 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > > On 02/ 1/15 01:50 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > >> Jerry Kemp wrote: >> >>> You have taken it a lot further than I would have. >>> >>> For an Ultra 5 or 10, I probably would not have gone past Solaris 10, >>> and due >>> to your ram being well under 4 Gb, I would stay on UFS vs ZFS. >>> >>> When you say "Solaris 11 install" in reference to this box, do you mean >>> an >>> install of Sun OpenSolaris? >>> >> >> snv_65 is an early development build of Solaris 11 - actually more like >> Solaris >> 10 than even the earliest Solaris 11 releases. >> >> > yep. Missed that part, and saw it less than 10 minutes after hitting the > send button. Sun OpenSolaris Nevada build 65. > > But I still stick by my comments concerning the system RAM. If the OP is > committed to this box, now is probably a great time to max out the memory. > Especially if he wants to move forward beyond OpenSolaris Nevada build 65. > > Jerry > > > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On 02/ 1/15 03:12 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: Sure, but before spending much time on them, do bare in mind they are about same performance as a 15-20 year old Pentium II system. You could probably move all their workloads to a single current x86 system, and have loads of CPU capacity left over, and consume less power than a single Ultra 5. How would the OP be able to use his RISC binaries? Or utilize his Sun Type 4 keyboard? It seems like a move to x86 might introduce more problems than it would solve. Jerry ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On 02/ 1/15 01:50 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: Jerry Kemp wrote: You have taken it a lot further than I would have. For an Ultra 5 or 10, I probably would not have gone past Solaris 10, and due to your ram being well under 4 Gb, I would stay on UFS vs ZFS. When you say "Solaris 11 install" in reference to this box, do you mean an install of Sun OpenSolaris? snv_65 is an early development build of Solaris 11 - actually more like Solaris 10 than even the earliest Solaris 11 releases. yep. Missed that part, and saw it less than 10 minutes after hitting the send button. Sun OpenSolaris Nevada build 65. But I still stick by my comments concerning the system RAM. If the OP is committed to this box, now is probably a great time to max out the memory. Especially if he wants to move forward beyond OpenSolaris Nevada build 65. Jerry ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
tribblix dies a few seconds after starting to boot with Loading: /platform/SUNW,Ultra-5_10/boot_archive Loading: /platform/sun4u/boot_archive Can't open boot_archive Fast Data Access MMU Miss Bummer. Thanks very much, nonetheless, for keeping SPARC in mind, Peter! On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Hmm, yeah, Tribblix sounds like a great option for my purposes. Is there > X support? That'd be nice so I can free up the other serial port. (Trying > to simultaneously run a serial console to the pdp11 as well as an emulated > tu58 drive via the other serial port.) I think I'll give it a whirl. > OpenBSD can boot from floppy and install via Internet, so that's great, but > I can't seem to find any floppies that'll still format. This is heck-of > retro :) > > thx > jake > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Peter Tribble > wrote: > >> > Is it feasible to install Hipster or OI on such a meagerly appointed >> > machine? I don't even have a dvd player; just cd. >> > >> > SunOS beep 5.11 snv_65 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 >> > Memory size: 256 Megabytes >> > >> >> That's a sparc box. You aren't going to be able to run OI >> (any version, including hipster) or most of the illumos distros. >> >> You've really got 2 options. OpenSXCE or Tribblix. >> >> http://www.opensxce.org/ >> http://www.tribblix.org/download.html >> >> Now, the Tribblix iso should fit on a CD. (Although to be >> honest that's largely accidental as I haven't built most >> of the packages for sparc yet.) As should the OpenSXCE >> text iso. >> >> The really hard part is going to be booting the CD in that >> small amount of memory. The root archive on the Tribblix >> iso is currently 200M, and that gets loaded into memory - >> you really don't have any space left to breathe. (I don't >> know offhand how big the OpenSXCE boot archive is, >> but it's likely to be pretty similar.) >> >> This isn't a truly fundamental problem - the root archive >> ends up being pretty large because it has support for >> everything in it by default, and it should be possible to >> produce a custom iso with a much smaller root archive. >> One of the things I'm interested in is minimal-footprint >> configurations, so doing that (and any other work to >> improve efficiency and reduce the footprint) is on my >> agenda, but it's going to take time. (And it's difficult >> for me to test, as I don't personally have any sparc >> hardware left that's that old or small. On x86 I think >> I managed to boot a custom iso in 400M and run in 256M, >> but there I can fiddle the settings in a VirtualBox VM.) >> >> Another way would be to use the existing OS to install >> a newer distro in an alternate boot environment. >> >> In any event, you're likely to be in for a modest amount >> of work and you're off into the weeds; the population of >> illumos users working on sparc is pretty small. >> >> -- >> -Peter Tribble >> http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ >> ___ >> openindiana-discuss mailing list >> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org >> http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss >> > > ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Well, true, but while I'm pretty pleased with and interested in helping with Illumos et al, I'm just not that interested in owning a pc. I have quite a number of SPARC machines and I'm fine with the performance of the thing - this isn't a processor-intensive load, as you might imagine. On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > Jacob Ritorto wrote: > >> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Andrew Gabriel < >> illu...@cucumber.demon.co.uk >> >> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >> >> >> >>> Do you have to stick with SPARC? Your Ultra 5 is going to be way slower >>> than any current (and many old) x86 systems, which are supported by all >>> the >>> Illumos distributions. >>> >>> >>> >> >> I don't have to; it's just that I have a number of these good old machines >> around and they're quite adequate for what I'm working on. OpenBSD seems >> to still support them, so maybe I'll give that a go. >> > > Sure, but before spending much time on them, do bare in mind they are > about same performance as a 15-20 year old Pentium II system. > > You could probably move all their workloads to a single current x86 > system, and have loads of CPU capacity left over, and consume less power > than a single Ultra 5. > > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Jacob Ritorto wrote: On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: Do you have to stick with SPARC? Your Ultra 5 is going to be way slower than any current (and many old) x86 systems, which are supported by all the Illumos distributions. I don't have to; it's just that I have a number of these good old machines around and they're quite adequate for what I'm working on. OpenBSD seems to still support them, so maybe I'll give that a go. Sure, but before spending much time on them, do bare in mind they are about same performance as a 15-20 year old Pentium II system. You could probably move all their workloads to a single current x86 system, and have loads of CPU capacity left over, and consume less power than a single Ultra 5. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Hmm, yeah, Tribblix sounds like a great option for my purposes. Is there X support? That'd be nice so I can free up the other serial port. (Trying to simultaneously run a serial console to the pdp11 as well as an emulated tu58 drive via the other serial port.) I think I'll give it a whirl. OpenBSD can boot from floppy and install via Internet, so that's great, but I can't seem to find any floppies that'll still format. This is heck-of retro :) thx jake On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Peter Tribble wrote: > > Is it feasible to install Hipster or OI on such a meagerly appointed > > machine? I don't even have a dvd player; just cd. > > > > SunOS beep 5.11 snv_65 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 > > Memory size: 256 Megabytes > > > > That's a sparc box. You aren't going to be able to run OI > (any version, including hipster) or most of the illumos distros. > > You've really got 2 options. OpenSXCE or Tribblix. > > http://www.opensxce.org/ > http://www.tribblix.org/download.html > > Now, the Tribblix iso should fit on a CD. (Although to be > honest that's largely accidental as I haven't built most > of the packages for sparc yet.) As should the OpenSXCE > text iso. > > The really hard part is going to be booting the CD in that > small amount of memory. The root archive on the Tribblix > iso is currently 200M, and that gets loaded into memory - > you really don't have any space left to breathe. (I don't > know offhand how big the OpenSXCE boot archive is, > but it's likely to be pretty similar.) > > This isn't a truly fundamental problem - the root archive > ends up being pretty large because it has support for > everything in it by default, and it should be possible to > produce a custom iso with a much smaller root archive. > One of the things I'm interested in is minimal-footprint > configurations, so doing that (and any other work to > improve efficiency and reduce the footprint) is on my > agenda, but it's going to take time. (And it's difficult > for me to test, as I don't personally have any sparc > hardware left that's that old or small. On x86 I think > I managed to boot a custom iso in 400M and run in 256M, > but there I can fiddle the settings in a VirtualBox VM.) > > Another way would be to use the existing OS to install > a newer distro in an alternate boot environment. > > In any event, you're likely to be in for a modest amount > of work and you're off into the weeds; the population of > illumos users working on sparc is pretty small. > > -- > -Peter Tribble > http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > Do you have to stick with SPARC? Your Ultra 5 is going to be way slower > than any current (and many old) x86 systems, which are supported by all the > Illumos distributions. > I don't have to; it's just that I have a number of these good old machines around and they're quite adequate for what I'm working on. OpenBSD seems to still support them, so maybe I'll give that a go. thanks jake ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
I have a blade 1000 with 2x1.2ghz ultrasparc iv+ or something like that and 8 gbs of ram with the top of the line video card. It still suffers under openscxe or whatever that is called. Definitely usable but not if there are any other options. If anyone is in upstate ny and you would like to adopt that old monster just let me know, you will have to pick it up though... -Original Message- From: Alan Coopersmith [mailto:alan.coopersm...@oracle.com] Sent: Sunday, February 1, 2015 2:58 PM To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5? On 02/ 1/15 11:19 AM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > Another option would be to use Solaris 11 Express if it still exists > anywhere - it's old, but not as old as snv_65. I think it still had > sun4u support, but I could be mistaken. I don't think it's still available, but yes, Solaris 11 Express 2010.11 (aka snv_151, a build 3.5 years newer that snv_65 from May 2007) did have sun4u support still. They didn't stop booting until snv_163, which only went to customers in the private beta, not a public release. -alan- ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
On 02/ 1/15 11:19 AM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: Another option would be to use Solaris 11 Express if it still exists anywhere - it's old, but not as old as snv_65. I think it still had sun4u support, but I could be mistaken. I don't think it's still available, but yes, Solaris 11 Express 2010.11 (aka snv_151, a build 3.5 years newer that snv_65 from May 2007) did have sun4u support still. They didn't stop booting until snv_163, which only went to customers in the private beta, not a public release. -alan- ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Jerry Kemp wrote: You have taken it a lot further than I would have. For an Ultra 5 or 10, I probably would not have gone past Solaris 10, and due to your ram being well under 4 Gb, I would stay on UFS vs ZFS. When you say "Solaris 11 install" in reference to this box, do you mean an install of Sun OpenSolaris? snv_65 is an early development build of Solaris 11 - actually more like Solaris 10 than even the earliest Solaris 11 releases. Or Oracle Solaris 11 Express? By default, and beginning with Solaris 11 proper, Oracle Solaris 11 will not install on a Sparc system unless it is a T series or M series at the low end. I understand you stating it is a good box, I have an Ultra 10 myself that is still chugging along, either way, I would take this time to max out the ram on your system. I believe that the Ultra 5/10 system board will hold 1 Gb of RAM. It seem that you have quite a few more years planned into your Ultra 5, and it is available new for reasonable prices, or there are a number of old hardware support list where I suspect that you could acquire more RAM for the cost of shipping. Max for Ultra 5 was actually 512Mb. The motherboard will take 1Gb and people have done it, but in theory it exceeds max power draw on one of the rails and some DIMMs are too tall without taking something out of the case (floppy disk drive, and/or the never used smart card reader housing, IIRC). Also note that the boot code in the Ultra 5/10 is exceedingly slow reading in the boot archive - it wasn't originally designed for reading in files of anything like that size, and is very non-optimal when doing so (takes many minutes). -- Andrew Gabriel ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
You have taken it a lot further than I would have. For an Ultra 5 or 10, I probably would not have gone past Solaris 10, and due to your ram being well under 4 Gb, I would stay on UFS vs ZFS. When you say "Solaris 11 install" in reference to this box, do you mean an install of Sun OpenSolaris? Or Oracle Solaris 11 Express? By default, and beginning with Solaris 11 proper, Oracle Solaris 11 will not install on a Sparc system unless it is a T series or M series at the low end. I understand you stating it is a good box, I have an Ultra 10 myself that is still chugging along, either way, I would take this time to max out the ram on your system. I believe that the Ultra 5/10 system board will hold 1 Gb of RAM. It seem that you have quite a few more years planned into your Ultra 5, and it is available new for reasonable prices, or there are a number of old hardware support list where I suspect that you could acquire more RAM for the cost of shipping. Jerry On 02/ 1/15 12:09 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: Hi, My Solaris 11 install is getting a little long in the tooth and I still use this poor old machine kind of a lot for small development, pdp11 emulation and its real serial ports, etc. I would like to keep it because it's pretty low power, reliable as dirt, and still supports the very comfortable Sun type 4 unix keyboard, which I still feel a little paralyzed trying to do without. I'm running into problems with new software (CSW, in particular) wanting more recent libs than the OS has. So I guess (*sigh*) it's time to update the OS bits. Is it feasible to install Hipster or OI on such a meagerly appointed machine? I don't even have a dvd player; just cd. SunOS beep 5.11 snv_65 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 Memory size: 256 Megabytes thx jake ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
> Is it feasible to install Hipster or OI on such a meagerly appointed > machine? I don't even have a dvd player; just cd. > > SunOS beep 5.11 snv_65 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 > Memory size: 256 Megabytes > That's a sparc box. You aren't going to be able to run OI (any version, including hipster) or most of the illumos distros. You've really got 2 options. OpenSXCE or Tribblix. http://www.opensxce.org/ http://www.tribblix.org/download.html Now, the Tribblix iso should fit on a CD. (Although to be honest that's largely accidental as I haven't built most of the packages for sparc yet.) As should the OpenSXCE text iso. The really hard part is going to be booting the CD in that small amount of memory. The root archive on the Tribblix iso is currently 200M, and that gets loaded into memory - you really don't have any space left to breathe. (I don't know offhand how big the OpenSXCE boot archive is, but it's likely to be pretty similar.) This isn't a truly fundamental problem - the root archive ends up being pretty large because it has support for everything in it by default, and it should be possible to produce a custom iso with a much smaller root archive. One of the things I'm interested in is minimal-footprint configurations, so doing that (and any other work to improve efficiency and reduce the footprint) is on my agenda, but it's going to take time. (And it's difficult for me to test, as I don't personally have any sparc hardware left that's that old or small. On x86 I think I managed to boot a custom iso in 400M and run in 256M, but there I can fiddle the settings in a VirtualBox VM.) Another way would be to use the existing OS to install a newer distro in an alternate boot environment. In any event, you're likely to be in for a modest amount of work and you're off into the weeds; the population of illumos users working on sparc is pretty small. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Jacob Ritorto wrote: Hi, My Solaris 11 install is getting a little long in the tooth and I still use this poor old machine kind of a lot for small development, pdp11 emulation and its real serial ports, etc. I would like to keep it because it's pretty low power, reliable as dirt, and still supports the very comfortable Sun type 4 unix keyboard, which I still feel a little paralyzed trying to do without. I'm running into problems with new software (CSW, in particular) wanting more recent libs than the OS has. So I guess (*sigh*) it's time to update the OS bits. Is it feasible to install Hipster or OI on such a meagerly appointed machine? I don't even have a dvd player; just cd. SunOS beep 5.11 snv_65 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 Memory size: 256 Megabytes An Ultra 5 is a SPARC system. No one builds OpenIndiana for SPARC. The two Illumos distributions for SPARC that I know of are OpenSXCE and Tribblix. Another option would be to use Solaris 11 Express if it still exists anywhere - it's old, but not as old as snv_65. I think it still had sun4u support, but I could be mistaken. Solaris 11 itself no longer supports sun4u systems except the Sun/Fujitsu M-series (M3000/4000/5000/8000/9000). Do you have to stick with SPARC? Your Ultra 5 is going to be way slower than any current (and many old) x86 systems, which are supported by all the Illumos distributions. -- Andrew ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
[OpenIndiana-discuss] oi or hipster for ultra5?
Hi, My Solaris 11 install is getting a little long in the tooth and I still use this poor old machine kind of a lot for small development, pdp11 emulation and its real serial ports, etc. I would like to keep it because it's pretty low power, reliable as dirt, and still supports the very comfortable Sun type 4 unix keyboard, which I still feel a little paralyzed trying to do without. I'm running into problems with new software (CSW, in particular) wanting more recent libs than the OS has. So I guess (*sigh*) it's time to update the OS bits. Is it feasible to install Hipster or OI on such a meagerly appointed machine? I don't even have a dvd player; just cd. SunOS beep 5.11 snv_65 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 Memory size: 256 Megabytes thx jake ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
