Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Harry Putnam]

David Johnson  writes:

> Does anyone have any editorial comments on how well ZFS is handled on
> Openindiana
> vs. Oracle Linux? It looks like these may be my only two choices if I
> want to
> have an OS that has native ZFS support, and allow me to get updated
> security patches.

Two points:

1) You might be hard pressed to find a busy open group like this to
   help you with oracle linux... but maybe I'm just thinking of Oracle   
   solaris.

2) You will find some of the best help possible on this group if you
   should chose openindiana.  There is a high number of experts here
   that do willingly share there expertise.

Speaking aa a semi no-nothing on the technical and even practicle
aspects of oi, I have been able to run oi for several years now
primarily due to the help I have received here.

Mind you that mine is strictly a homeboy usage nothing commercial or
even terribly important.  Just a home server to store certain of my
data on like 300 GB of images collected over a number of years of
amatuer photography.



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Hans J Albertsson]

FreeNAS and FreeBSD both seem to run zfs w/o any extra effort on the
installer's or user's part.
Is my very limited experience of one install of each, both fairly recent
versions.

Hans J. Albertsson
>From my Nexus 5

Den 21 apr. 2017 23:22 skrev "Andreas Wacknitz" :

>
>
> Am 21.04.17 um 23:16 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz:
>
>>
>>
>> Am 21.04.17 um 22:10 schrieb jason matthews:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/21/17 11:36 AM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:
>>>
 I can't tell. It's a specialized distribution and I am currently
 evaluating it because
 SmartOS does not work well on my HP ProLiant DL360 G7.
 But I am just recently started playing with it so I cannot say much
 about internal details yet.
 I would prefer to use SmartOS but I have been told on IRC that it is
 for data center and thus
 power consumption is irrelevant.

>>>
>>> You are using a computer that sounds like a jet engine and you are
>>> worried about power consumption? :)
>>>
>> Since Gen6 the HP ProLiant servers are quiet. I only hear a soft wisper
>> from it as long as there is no high load on it.
>> Even under high load it's far form sounding like a jet engine. Have a
>> look at https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/wiki/dbbtu
>> That gives some valuable information ;-)
>>
>>
>>> It is sort of a funny statement all around. Data centers spend lots of
>>> money on power and air conditioning where one begets the other. so I am not
>>> sure why one wouldnt care about power. I am curious, what power related
>>> thing is making your G7 "not work well"?
>>>
>> Running the machine (2*L5630, 32GB RAM, 1 300GB SAS drive) idles around
>> 100W under EXSi. Fans are at 23%.
>> Proxmox has a similar power consumption with fans at 20%.
>> SmartOS (as of end of March) idles at around 130W with fans at 34%. The
>> sound at this speed is still bearable but not whisper quiet like on Proxmox.
>>
> My OI build machine is a DL360G7 with one E5645, 3*8GB RAM, 2 SSD's and 2
> 600GB SAS drives. Under OI it idles around 80W and fans at 19%.
> I expected SmartOS having similar values.
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Andreas Wacknitz]

Am 21.04.17 um 23:16 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz:



Am 21.04.17 um 22:10 schrieb jason matthews:



On 4/21/17 11:36 AM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:
I can't tell. It's a specialized distribution and I am currently 
evaluating it because

SmartOS does not work well on my HP ProLiant DL360 G7.
But I am just recently started playing with it so I cannot say much 
about internal details yet.
I would prefer to use SmartOS but I have been told on IRC that it is 
for data center and thus

power consumption is irrelevant.


You are using a computer that sounds like a jet engine and you are 
worried about power consumption? :)
Since Gen6 the HP ProLiant servers are quiet. I only hear a soft 
wisper from it as long as there is no high load on it.
Even under high load it's far form sounding like a jet engine. Have a 
look at https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/wiki/dbbtu

That gives some valuable information ;-)



It is sort of a funny statement all around. Data centers spend lots 
of money on power and air conditioning where one begets the other. so 
I am not sure why one wouldnt care about power. I am curious, what 
power related thing is making your G7 "not work well"?
Running the machine (2*L5630, 32GB RAM, 1 300GB SAS drive) idles 
around 100W under EXSi. Fans are at 23%.

Proxmox has a similar power consumption with fans at 20%.
SmartOS (as of end of March) idles at around 130W with fans at 34%. 
The sound at this speed is still bearable but not whisper quiet like 
on Proxmox.
My OI build machine is a DL360G7 with one E5645, 3*8GB RAM, 2 SSD's and 
2 600GB SAS drives. Under OI it idles around 80W and fans at 19%.

I expected SmartOS having similar values.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Andreas Wacknitz]

Am 21.04.17 um 22:10 schrieb jason matthews:



On 4/21/17 11:36 AM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:
I can't tell. It's a specialized distribution and I am currently 
evaluating it because

SmartOS does not work well on my HP ProLiant DL360 G7.
But I am just recently started playing with it so I cannot say much 
about internal details yet.
I would prefer to use SmartOS but I have been told on IRC that it is 
for data center and thus

power consumption is irrelevant.


You are using a computer that sounds like a jet engine and you are 
worried about power consumption? :)
Since Gen6 the HP ProLiant servers are quiet. I only hear a soft wisper 
from it as long as there is no high load on it.
Even under high load it's far form sounding like a jet engine. Have a 
look at https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/wiki/dbbtu

That gives some valuable information ;-)



It is sort of a funny statement all around. Data centers spend lots of 
money on power and air conditioning where one begets the other. so I 
am not sure why one wouldnt care about power. I am curious, what power 
related thing is making your G7 "not work well"?
Running the machine (2*L5630, 32GB RAM, 1 300GB SAS drive) idles around 
100W under EXSi. Fans are at 23%.

Proxmox has a similar power consumption with fans at 20%.
SmartOS (as of end of March) idles at around 130W with fans at 34%. The 
sound at this speed is still bearable but not whisper quiet like on Proxmox.


Regards

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[jason matthews]

On 4/21/17 11:36 AM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:
I can't tell. It's a specialized distribution and I am currently 
evaluating it because

SmartOS does not work well on my HP ProLiant DL360 G7.
But I am just recently started playing with it so I cannot say much 
about internal details yet.
I would prefer to use SmartOS but I have been told on IRC that it is 
for data center and thus

power consumption is irrelevant.


You are using a computer that sounds like a jet engine and you are 
worried about power consumption? :)


It is sort of a funny statement all around. Data centers spend lots of 
money on power and air conditioning where one begets the other. so I am 
not sure why one wouldnt care about power. I am curious, what power 
related thing is making your G7 "not work well"?


.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[C. R. Oldham]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Doug Hughes  wrote:

> Not to Hijack, but:

No worries.  There is no substitute for the voice of experience.

> I struggled with KVM on XFS for months before giving up. XFS is somewhat
> fundamentally incompatible with qcow2.

In our case we are using raw (required for some OpenNebula features,
though I should check to see if we are actually using any of those
features anymore...).  On and off for the past few weeks I have been
exploring the potential of migrating off OpenNebula and onto Triton--I
suspect it would enable us to increase the utilization of our
(admittedly) small private cloud.

--cro

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Doug Hughes]

On 4/21/2017 2:06 PM, C. R. Oldham wrote:
> For Ubuntu, it is an effort to get ZFS on the root partition.  See
> these wiki entries:
>
> https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/wiki/Ubuntu
>
> I have several machines installed with these instructions on 16.04,
> 16.10, and 17.04.  They do work, but it's a pain to get it installed.
>
> Note that ZoL does have a couple of limitations that can make it
> challenging to use it as the backing store for KVM.  We have an
> OpenNebula private cloud and some of qemu's caching options will cause
> the VMs not to start, claiming the FS underneath doesn't expose the
> right primitives.  I left the OS on ZFS on those machines and
> converted the partitions where the VMs keep their disks to XFS.
Not to Hijack, but:

I struggled with KVM on XFS for months before giving up. XFS is somewhat
fundamentally incompatible with qcow2. If you are using raw, I'm sure
it's great. Sine we use snapshots for backups and replication, the qcow2
functionality is a must-have. Even on a 96GB machine on a large (~40TB)
qcow2 image, the fragmentation in XFS got to be enough that it was
struggling to get 4MB allocations for XFS, and XFS would just fill the
logs. Even echo 3> /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches and tuning linux to have at
least 8MB available and use hugetlb and tuning scanning were not enough.
XFS would get irrevlocably stuck and require a hard reset of the entire
machine to free.

You *can* tune xfs allocation sizes, but only on an empty file. You
can't do it after the fact, which makes discovering that very annoying.
You can also completely preallocate a qcow2, but I'm not sure it's
helpful in the long run.

Running KVM on ZoL on the other hand, has been wonderful so far with
qcow2. (CentOS7.2)

Anyway, just saying, XFS is great until it isn't, and it's failure cases
will bite you months down the road and you may not have options. I'm
looking forward, soon, to having another zfs machine to replicate too,
then I'll use KVM+QCOW2 to take the snapshot, use zfs to replicate, then
blockcommit and done. Right now it's rsync and it takes way too long.



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Andreas Wacknitz]

Am 21.04.17 um 20:25 schrieb C. R. Oldham:

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Andreas Wacknitz  wrote:

Am 21.04.17 um 20:06 schrieb C. R. Oldham:

Note that ZoL does have a couple of limitations that can make it
challenging to use it as the backing store for KVM.

That's interesting, Proxmox, a Debian based distribution, can use ZFS and
run KVM on it.

It might have been more accurate for me to say that it seems to be
challenging to use OpenNebula with ZFS then.

I haven't used Proxmox, maybe it is smart enough to restrict the
caching options to what works best with ZFS?
I can't tell. It's a specialized distribution and I am currently 
evaluating it because

SmartOS does not work well on my HP ProLiant DL360 G7.
But I am just recently started playing with it so I cannot say much 
about internal details yet.
I would prefer to use SmartOS but I have been told on IRC that it is for 
data center and thus

power consumption is irrelevant.

Regards,
Andreas


--cro

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, C. R. Oldham wrote:


I haven't used Proxmox, maybe it is smart enough to restrict the
caching options to what works best with ZFS?


ZFS itself is a cache.  It should not be necessary to add more caching 
on top of it as pertains to local storage.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[C. R. Oldham]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Andreas Wacknitz  wrote:
>
> Am 21.04.17 um 20:06 schrieb C. R. Oldham:
>> Note that ZoL does have a couple of limitations that can make it
>> challenging to use it as the backing store for KVM.

> That's interesting, Proxmox, a Debian based distribution, can use ZFS and
> run KVM on it.

It might have been more accurate for me to say that it seems to be
challenging to use OpenNebula with ZFS then.

I haven't used Proxmox, maybe it is smart enough to restrict the
caching options to what works best with ZFS?

--cro

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Andreas Wacknitz]

Am 21.04.17 um 20:06 schrieb C. R. Oldham:

For Ubuntu, it is an effort to get ZFS on the root partition.  See
these wiki entries:

https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/wiki/Ubuntu

I have several machines installed with these instructions on 16.04,
16.10, and 17.04.  They do work, but it's a pain to get it installed.

Note that ZoL does have a couple of limitations that can make it
challenging to use it as the backing store for KVM.  We have an
OpenNebula private cloud and some of qemu's caching options will cause
the VMs not to start, claiming the FS underneath doesn't expose the
right primitives.  I left the OS on ZFS on those machines and
converted the partitions where the VMs keep their disks to XFS.
That's interesting, Proxmox, a Debian based distribution, can use ZFS 
and run KVM on it.


Regards,
Andreas


--cro



On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Andrew Gabriel
 wrote:

That would be any Illumos-based distro, FreeBSD (and FreeNAS), Ubuntu, and
maybe Gentoo.

I looked on the Oracle Linux web pages and blog, and there's no mention of
ZFS anywhere.
The Oracle Linux folks were very anti ZFS because they developed BTRFS and
saw ZFS as a competitor, although I think the BTRFS development team is now
mainly at Facebook.

On 21/04/2017 19:12, David Johnson wrote:

I might be using the wrong terminology, but by "native" I meant without
doing any extra
work. Some of the operating systems in your link are rumored to not work
out
of the box. An Oracle tech support rep. is the one who told me about the
native support for ZFS in Oracle Linux.

On 04/21/17 11:01, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

On 21/04/2017 18:24, David Johnson wrote:

Does anyone have any editorial comments on how well ZFS is handled on
Openindiana
vs. Oracle Linux? It looks like these may be my only two choices if I
want to
have an OS that has native ZFS support, and allow me to get updated
security patches.


I'm not aware that Oracle Linux has native ZFS support at all.
However, there are more than you mentioned - see
http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Distributions



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[C. R. Oldham]

For Ubuntu, it is an effort to get ZFS on the root partition.  See
these wiki entries:

https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/wiki/Ubuntu

I have several machines installed with these instructions on 16.04,
16.10, and 17.04.  They do work, but it's a pain to get it installed.

Note that ZoL does have a couple of limitations that can make it
challenging to use it as the backing store for KVM.  We have an
OpenNebula private cloud and some of qemu's caching options will cause
the VMs not to start, claiming the FS underneath doesn't expose the
right primitives.  I left the OS on ZFS on those machines and
converted the partitions where the VMs keep their disks to XFS.

--cro



On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Andrew Gabriel
 wrote:
> That would be any Illumos-based distro, FreeBSD (and FreeNAS), Ubuntu, and
> maybe Gentoo.
>
> I looked on the Oracle Linux web pages and blog, and there's no mention of
> ZFS anywhere.
> The Oracle Linux folks were very anti ZFS because they developed BTRFS and
> saw ZFS as a competitor, although I think the BTRFS development team is now
> mainly at Facebook.
>
> On 21/04/2017 19:12, David Johnson wrote:
>>
>> I might be using the wrong terminology, but by "native" I meant without
>> doing any extra
>> work. Some of the operating systems in your link are rumored to not work
>> out
>> of the box. An Oracle tech support rep. is the one who told me about the
>> native support for ZFS in Oracle Linux.
>>
>> On 04/21/17 11:01, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/04/2017 18:24, David Johnson wrote:

 Does anyone have any editorial comments on how well ZFS is handled on
 Openindiana
 vs. Oracle Linux? It looks like these may be my only two choices if I
 want to
 have an OS that has native ZFS support, and allow me to get updated
 security patches.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not aware that Oracle Linux has native ZFS support at all.
>>> However, there are more than you mentioned - see
>>> http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Andrew Gabriel]

That would be any Illumos-based distro, FreeBSD (and FreeNAS), Ubuntu, 
and maybe Gentoo.


I looked on the Oracle Linux web pages and blog, and there's no mention 
of ZFS anywhere.
The Oracle Linux folks were very anti ZFS because they developed BTRFS 
and saw ZFS as a competitor, although I think the BTRFS development team 
is now mainly at Facebook.


On 21/04/2017 19:12, David Johnson wrote:
I might be using the wrong terminology, but by "native" I meant 
without doing any extra
work. Some of the operating systems in your link are rumored to not 
work out

of the box. An Oracle tech support rep. is the one who told me about the
native support for ZFS in Oracle Linux.

On 04/21/17 11:01, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

On 21/04/2017 18:24, David Johnson wrote:
Does anyone have any editorial comments on how well ZFS is handled 
on Openindiana
vs. Oracle Linux? It looks like these may be my only two choices if 
I want to
have an OS that has native ZFS support, and allow me to get updated 
security patches. 


I'm not aware that Oracle Linux has native ZFS support at all.
However, there are more than you mentioned - see 
http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Distributions





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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Michael Schuster wrote:


You can also have a look at FreeBSD


Yes, FreeBSD has had ZFS for a long time and they are good about
security updates.

OpenIndiana has had ZFS from the beginning and the ZFS was written for 
its (Solaris) code base rather than needing to be ported into it.  The 
native implementation gives it an advantage over any "port" (e.g. 
better memory use).


Bob
--
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bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[David Johnson]

I might be using the wrong terminology, but by "native" I meant without 
doing any extra

work. Some of the operating systems in your link are rumored to not work out
of the box. An Oracle tech support rep. is the one who told me about the
native support for ZFS in Oracle Linux.

On 04/21/17 11:01, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

On 21/04/2017 18:24, David Johnson wrote:
Does anyone have any editorial comments on how well ZFS is handled on 
Openindiana
vs. Oracle Linux? It looks like these may be my only two choices if I 
want to
have an OS that has native ZFS support, and allow me to get updated 
security patches. 


I'm not aware that Oracle Linux has native ZFS support at all.
However, there are more than you mentioned - see 
http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Distributions





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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Michael Schuster]

You can also have a look at FreeBSD

Cheers
Michael

On 21 Apr 2017 6:25 pm, "David Johnson"  wrote:

Does anyone have any editorial comments on how well ZFS is handled on
Openindiana
vs. Oracle Linux? It looks like these may be my only two choices if I want
to
have an OS that has native ZFS support, and allow me to get updated
security patches.

Dave

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] ZFS on Openindiana vs ZFS on oracle linux

[Andrew Gabriel]

On 21/04/2017 18:24, David Johnson wrote:
Does anyone have any editorial comments on how well ZFS is handled on 
Openindiana
vs. Oracle Linux? It looks like these may be my only two choices if I 
want to
have an OS that has native ZFS support, and allow me to get updated 
security patches. 


I'm not aware that Oracle Linux has native ZFS support at all.
However, there are more than you mentioned - see 
http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Distributions


--
Andrew Gabriel

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