Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
tl; dr. Adam From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Mark Malewski Sent: Wednesday, 30 September 2009 3:45 PM To: d...@metaverseink.com; opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules Diva, It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or as OpenSim modules). This would be terrible. Diva, please explain WHY would having a working OpenSim distro be terrible? Having something that actually works is terrible? In my opinion, just the opposite is true. You can spend your whole life developing things (that no one actually uses, and that don't actually work or do much of anything, and that no one will ever use) or you can make a WORKING product that is usable, and that is EASY to use, and that people will use. You seem to prefer the latter. I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an application, it's a platform with which to build applications. I think you need to sit down and understand the concept of working product. You also need to stop confusing extensible system with not working product. PHP, and Apache are what I would consider extensible systems. PHP is easily downloaded, and it works (out of the box). Yet it comes with many different modules (as part of the default distro) and those modules have all been thoroughly tested, and can easily be enabled by simply uncommenting out the module name in the default.ini file. From an engineering standpoint, extensibility means the system is designed to include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/enhancing the system with new capabilities WITHOUT having to make major changes to the system infrastructure. OpenSim doesn't seem to be extensible. OpenSim seems to be broken. There is a big difference. Maybe your definition of extensible means that it requires a rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile (or even work), and takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get a module to even work. That isn't my idea of extensible. I understand over the past few months, the server infrastructure (and architecture) has been changing quite a bit. It's hard to even tell if ModRex (or any other modules) even work with the current OpenSim trunk (or latest build) at this point. The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to compile from source, or debugging code, or searching for plugins/modules that may (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them may not be updated, or may not even work with the current OpenSim as core evolves. Often times many of these modules are not updated, and most have no clue how to even build from source, and for this reason it might be good to just have VERY simple turn-key distributions available for download. (Stable releases) Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past. I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creating a fully configured VMWare image of OpenSim with various modules installed and configured, that people could easily download, and be up and running in a few minutes (without having to hunt for various modules, or applications), or sifting through outdated wiki pages trying to figure out how to even get started or even get up and running, but to be honest most people just want something VERY easy to use, VERY easy to setup, and would love a nice GUI interface (like WixTD, etc.) that they can use to administer the server, add users, etc. Most laypeople don't want to hire a software engineer, or a programmer, just to get OpenSim to compile, or even get a module working, or just to get OpenSim running on a machine. If I want to use a plugin with Firefox, I've NEVER had to compile or debug code. If I want to enable a PHP module, I've NEVER had to debug any code. Most modules are included in the default distro, and modules can easily be turned on and off, by simply enabling them in the default ini (configuration) file. In my opinion, you may be confusing extensible system as an excuse as to why nothing should work properly. In my opinion, EVERY single working module that exists for OpenSim should be included in the default distro (in the modules directory), and these modules should ALL be disabled by default, but can be easily enabled by simply uncommenting out ONE single line in the default.ini configuration file. Include EVERY single working module with the default OpenSim distro, so users have a list of default working modules that are regularly updated so that they actually work (and are not broken), so that when a stable release comes out, a user can just enable or disable whatever modules they wish to use (by uncommenting out a line or two in the default .ini configuration file) and
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
Holdit! OpenSim is NOT A PRODUCT. OpenSim is a BASE other people can make a product out of. So, OpenSim aims to include as little as possible, distros are the ones who will put it together and relicense it as they see fit. OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest. We don't _want_ to make a product, because we can't support a product. We make bits and pieces and let those with support staff handle productizing it. Melanie Mark Malewski wrote: Diva, * It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or as OpenSim modules). * *This would be terrible. * Diva, please explain WHY would having a working OpenSim distro be terrible? Having something that actually works is terrible? In my opinion, just the opposite is true. You can spend your whole life developing things (that no one actually uses, and that don't actually work or do much of anything, and that no one will ever use) or you can make a WORKING product that is usable, and that is EASY to use, and that people will use. You seem to prefer the latter. * I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an application, it's a platform with which to build applications. * I think you need to sit down and understand the concept of working product. You also need to stop confusing extensible system with not working product. PHP, and Apache are what I would consider extensible systems. PHP is easily downloaded, and it works (out of the box). Yet it comes with many different modules (as part of the default distro) and those modules have all been thoroughly tested, and can easily be enabled by simply uncommenting out the module name in the default.ini file. to include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/enhancing the system with new capabilities WITHOUT having to make major changes to the system infrastructure. OpenSim doesn't seem to be extensible. OpenSim seems to be broken. There is a big difference. Maybe your definition of extensible means that it requires a rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile (or even work), and takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get a module to even work. That isn't my idea of extensible. I understand over the past few months, the server infrastructure (and architecture) has been changing quite a bit. It's hard to even tell if ModRex (or any other modules) even work with the current OpenSim trunk (or latest build) at this point. The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to compile from source, or debugging code, or searching for plugins/modules that may (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them may not be updated, or may not even work with the current OpenSim as core evolves. Often times many of these modules are not updated, and most have no clue how to even build from source, and for this reason it might be good to just have VERY simple turn-key distributions available for download. (Stable releases) Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past. I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creating a fully configured VMWare image of OpenSim with various modules installed and configured, that people could easily download, and be up and running in a few minutes (without having to hunt for various modules, or applications), or sifting through outdated wiki pages trying to figure out how to even get started or even get up and running, but to be honest most people just want something VERY easy to use, VERY easy to setup, and would love a nice GUI interface (like WixTD, etc.) that they can use to administer the server, add users, etc. Most laypeople don't want to hire a software engineer, or a programmer, just to get OpenSim to compile, or even get a module working, or just to get OpenSim running on a machine. If I want to use a plugin with Firefox, I've NEVER had to compile or debug code. If I want to enable a PHP module, I've NEVER had to debug any code. Most modules are included in the default distro, and modules can easily be turned on and off, by simply enabling them in the default ini (configuration) file. In my opinion, you may be confusing extensible system as an excuse as to why nothing should work properly. In my opinion, EVERY single working module that exists for OpenSim should be included in the default distro (in the modules directory), and these modules should ALL be disabled by default, but can be easily enabled by simply uncommenting out ONE single line in the default.ini configuration file. Include EVERY single working module with the default OpenSim distro, so users have a list of default working modules that are regularly updated so that they actually work (and are not
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:51:49AM +0200, Melanie wrote: OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest. We don't _want_ to make a product, because we can't support a product. We make bits and pieces and let those with support staff handle productizing it. It would be *great*, though, if the front page of opensimulator.org pointed folks to places where they could download and get a product. People come there looking to experiment with running opensimulator. If the page can point them to an easy as possible place to get and install a distribution, that'd be a benefit for all. -- --Rob Knop E-mail:rk...@pobox.com Home Page: http://www.pobox.com/~rknop/ Blog: http://www.sonic.net/~rknop/blog/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
There's only a handful of those at best (diva, osgrid, new world grid, realXtend,...). But it's probably really not a bad idea. I think what Diva is doing (the 'Diva Distribution') is exactly where things should be heading. Adam -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev- boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Robert A. Knop Jr. Sent: Wednesday, 30 September 2009 4:12 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:51:49AM +0200, Melanie wrote: OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest. We don't _want_ to make a product, because we can't support a product. We make bits and pieces and let those with support staff handle productizing it. It would be *great*, though, if the front page of opensimulator.org pointed folks to places where they could download and get a product. People come there looking to experiment with running opensimulator. If the page can point them to an easy as possible place to get and install a distribution, that'd be a benefit for all. -- --Rob Knop E-mail:rk...@pobox.com Home Page: http://www.pobox.com/~rknop/ Blog: http://www.sonic.net/~rknop/blog/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
There aren't really any products based on opensim yet. Not even RealXtend, which (my apologies to the RealXtend folks) was never all THAT popular to begin with. Let me state this once and perfectly clearly for the laymen and Phd.s alike: OpenSim is Alpha software. That software is a platform. It is nothing more, nothing less. If you think a distribution needs to be made, leave off authoring rants at our devs and go make it. Wiki's are made to be edited, so go edit. Rambling diatribes against profoundly productive developers are pointless and embarrassing. And FWIW modrex works quite well with recent revisions of opensim. Had you put as much effort into testing and evaluation of these things as you did in that rant, Mr. Malewski, you might be aware of this. James Stallings Aka Hiro Protagonist On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Robert A. Knop Jr. rk...@pobox.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:51:49AM +0200, Melanie wrote: OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest. We don't _want_ to make a product, because we can't support a product. We make bits and pieces and let those with support staff handle productizing it. It would be *great*, though, if the front page of opensimulator.org pointed folks to places where they could download and get a product. People come there looking to experiment with running opensimulator. If the page can point them to an easy as possible place to get and install a distribution, that'd be a benefit for all. -- --Rob Knop E-mail:rk...@pobox.com Home Page: http://www.pobox.com/~rknop/ Blog: http://www.sonic.net/~rknop/blog/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://osgrid.org http://del.icio.us/SPQR http://twitter.com/jstallings2 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
Mark's comment wasn't very well organized or thought out. It was basically just an explosion of his frustration with OpenSim. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't have a few good points hidden in there. I believe that looking at most other software projects in the world, you would find that core or base products did not come into existence in a vacuum. They were developed with a specific end product in mind that solved an immediate need and/or desire. The developers of the end product most likely worked heavily on the core products. The effect of that end product was the world getting to see how great the technology is. Once people see the possibilities your core provides, they will build other great products from it. I don't intend to say that the first end product has to share a repository with the core code. Just that there needs to be an end product being work on by core developers. Do you need to include _every_ module in your releases? No. But you have to do whatever it takes to make using the most common modules as easy as possible. If half or even a 5th of your potential users want module X, then it's fairly important that it's easy to install without knowing c#. You can do all of this the other way around -- but you're only hurting your own popularity. Be excellent to each other and party on dudes! - Joshua ___ Joshua Garvin On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Melanie mela...@t-data.com wrote: Holdit! OpenSim is NOT A PRODUCT. OpenSim is a BASE other people can make a product out of. So, OpenSim aims to include as little as possible, distros are the ones who will put it together and relicense it as they see fit. OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest. We don't _want_ to make a product, because we can't support a product. We make bits and pieces and let those with support staff handle productizing it. Melanie Mark Malewski wrote: Diva, * It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or as OpenSim modules). * *This would be terrible. * Diva, please explain WHY would having a working OpenSim distro be terrible? Having something that actually works is terrible? In my opinion, just the opposite is true. You can spend your whole life developing things (that no one actually uses, and that don't actually work or do much of anything, and that no one will ever use) or you can make a WORKING product that is usable, and that is EASY to use, and that people will use. You seem to prefer the latter. * I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an application, it's a platform with which to build applications. * I think you need to sit down and understand the concept of working product. You also need to stop confusing extensible system with not working product. PHP, and Apache are what I would consider extensible systems. PHP is easily downloaded, and it works (out of the box). Yet it comes with many different modules (as part of the default distro) and those modules have all been thoroughly tested, and can easily be enabled by simply uncommenting out the module name in the default.ini file. to include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/enhancing the system with new capabilities WITHOUT having to make major changes to the system infrastructure. OpenSim doesn't seem to be extensible. OpenSim seems to be broken. There is a big difference. Maybe your definition of extensible means that it requires a rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile (or even work), and takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get a module to even work. That isn't my idea of extensible. I understand over the past few months, the server infrastructure (and architecture) has been changing quite a bit. It's hard to even tell if ModRex (or any other modules) even work with the current OpenSim trunk (or latest build) at this point. The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to compile from source, or debugging code, or searching for plugins/modules that may (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them may not be updated, or may not even work with the current OpenSim as core evolves. Often times many of these modules are not updated, and most have no clue how to even build from source, and for this reason it might be good to just have VERY simple turn-key distributions available for download. (Stable releases) Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past. I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creating a fully configured VMWare image of OpenSim with various modules installed and configured, that
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
Actually, that is the plan - for 1.0b. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Mark Malewski mark.malew...@gmail.comwrote: * My thoughts are simple every 4-6 months lockdown all of the refactoring and recoding stuff get things stable and then do a formal** release get something that works out and then go back to playing* * with the code * See this is exactly what I was thinking. We are constantly evolving so quickly that nothing really works, and OpenSim just stays broken and there is no such thing as a formal release. I understand OpenSim is still Alpha, but could we at least try to put out ONE single release (a 0.7 release) that is usable, and then go back to developing and then we'll wait till a 1.0 release comes out. But at least we'll have something stable, where all the modules work, and we have something stable for the non-dev's to use? * As far as the we don't do distros thing is YES YOU SHOULD its called the Reference Server Platform* I do agree that we should at least put out a stable distro every 4-6 months. A 0.7 Release would really be a good time to put out a distro. Could we at least try to get everything working, and create ONE single stable release? I certainly don't mind helping with putting out a 0.7 distro, and working on updating documentation for it, and even testing it (and submitting bug reports) but can we just stop and focus for a bit and work on bug fixes, and just releasing a SINGLE STABLE release? I'd even be willing to be a P.O.C. for module testing, and even test/verify modules, so that they could even be bundled/included in a working release. So at least we have a nice STABLE release that people can use? Mark On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Robert Martin robertl...@gmail.comwrote: My thoughts are simple every 4-6 months lockdown all of the refactoring and recoding stuff get things stable and then do a formal release get something that works out and then go back to playing with the code heck it seem like every 2 weeks or so LL does a formal release/ server update. As far as the we don't do distros thing is YES YOU SHOULD its called the Reference Server Platform if you run into say a Diva copy then you should be able to go back to the matching OpenSim Server to see if its something that Diva did or if its a bug in the codebase. -- Robert L Martin ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://osgrid.org http://del.icio.us/SPQR http://twitter.com/jstallings2 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
Right, but any decent framework/platform that has any expectation of being used designs in the open and publishes a roadmap for the changes planned so that people that do wish to productize around it can plan and do so without huge hassles. They don't just throw shit up on a wall and see what sticks nor do they hack away on the head of the development tree without a pre-existing design and/or documentation, destabilizing what's there for everyone else. The user community for OpenSim has been pretty patient and having a dedicated community of grid operators (all of whom are consuming the platform in the form of a product albeit rough around the edges). I heard Mike making an appeal for effort around capturing the innovation that's done around the edges of the framework. IMO that's in part hoping that OpenSim will grow up and cease being mostly a hackers playground but rather really become the platform you say it is. But to do so IMO requires a tad more rigor than shown in the project to date. Mike -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:52 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules Holdit! OpenSim is NOT A PRODUCT. OpenSim is a BASE other people can make a product out of. So, OpenSim aims to include as little as possible, distros are the ones who will put it together and relicense it as they see fit. OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest. We don't _want_ to make a product, because we can't support a product. We make bits and pieces and let those with support staff handle productizing it. Melanie ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules
There actually is a design and roadmap. I know, I've seen it. Again, this is an alpha project - so the design and roadmap morphs, disappears, gets rewritten, and is sometimes even hidden. While I have no particular desire to discourage anyone for using opensim, I dont recall any of us ever saying 'come on, build your products around this alpha platform'. Nor do I recall any of us representing opensim as anything ready for adoption, adaptation, integration, or production use of any sort. On the contrary, in an effort to properly manage expectations, we have, almost as a unit, adopted a mantra of 'this is not ready for primetime use'. Any other representations are driven strictly by user perception. It remains, for better or worse, a 'use at your own risk' platform, whatever 'use' might be contrived to mean, at least until such time as we proclaim otherwise. Bottom line is, until we -do- make a release and stamp it '1.0', if ya can't stands the heat, gets yourself out of the kitchen. And if you -can- stand the heat, get in there and chop up the mirapois with the rest of us. Cheers On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Dickson, Mike (ISS Software) mike.dick...@hp.com wrote: Right, but any decent framework/platform that has any expectation of being used designs in the open and publishes a roadmap for the changes planned so that people that do wish to productize around it can plan and do so without huge hassles. They don't just throw shit up on a wall and see what sticks nor do they hack away on the head of the development tree without a pre-existing design and/or documentation, destabilizing what's there for everyone else. The user community for OpenSim has been pretty patient and having a dedicated community of grid operators (all of whom are consuming the platform in the form of a product albeit rough around the edges). I heard Mike making an appeal for effort around capturing the innovation that's done around the edges of the framework. IMO that's in part hoping that OpenSim will grow up and cease being mostly a hackers playground but rather really become the platform you say it is. But to do so IMO requires a tad more rigor than shown in the project to date. Mike -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:52 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules Holdit! OpenSim is NOT A PRODUCT. OpenSim is a BASE other people can make a product out of. So, OpenSim aims to include as little as possible, distros are the ones who will put it together and relicense it as they see fit. OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest. We don't _want_ to make a product, because we can't support a product. We make bits and pieces and let those with support staff handle productizing it. Melanie ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://osgrid.org http://del.icio.us/SPQR http://twitter.com/jstallings2 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
