Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Jason]

My guess is that if announcement is going to be made, it'll be made at
their big conference that's happening soon (Oracleworld? something
like that)

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Ivan Wang  wrote:
>> 
>>
>> On 08/18/10 03:47 PM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
>> >  cite="mid:344232755.361282160879701.JavaMail.Twebapp@
>> f-app1"
>>  type="cite">
>> Let me guess what the Solaris 11
>>  Express will be:
>> The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
>> Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and
>> limited number of CPU cores.
>>
>> Hope that it will be free (at least for
>> non-commercial use) for unlimited period of time.
>> Hope it will be sufficient to power up a small
>> university server.
>>
>>   
>> blockquote>
>> 
>> I actually think it will be just like Opensolaris
>> Express (SXCE), but
>> with fewer updates with binaries, and Source at an
>> unspecific time,
>> meaning the leaked memo stated major milestones, I
>> hope it means after
>> every Express release.
>
> It is probably more like Solaris Express before SXCE, but the question still 
> remains, still no official announcement of "Express" program from Oracle, and 
> still open in the air whether so-called Express program is a continual 
> commitment, or a one-shot stop gap.
>
> will oracle make announcement after imminent OGB decommision?
>
> truly disturbing.
> Ivan.
>
>> 
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Ivan Wang]

> 
> 
> On 08/18/10 03:47 PM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
>   cite="mid:344232755.361282160879701.JavaMail.Twebapp@
> f-app1"
>  type="cite">
> Let me guess what the Solaris 11
>  Express will be:
> The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
> Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and
> limited number of CPU cores.
> 
> Hope that it will be free (at least for
> non-commercial use) for unlimited period of time.
> Hope it will be sufficient to power up a small
> university server.
> 
>   
> blockquote>
> 
> I actually think it will be just like Opensolaris
> Express (SXCE), but
> with fewer updates with binaries, and Source at an
> unspecific time,
> meaning the leaked memo stated major milestones, I
> hope it means after
> every Express release.

It is probably more like Solaris Express before SXCE, but the question still 
remains, still no official announcement of "Express" program from Oracle, and 
still open in the air whether so-called Express program is a continual 
commitment, or a one-shot stop gap. 

will oracle make announcement after imminent OGB decommision?

truly disturbing. 
Ivan.

> 
> Paul
> 
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[osol-discuss] Nexenta Core Platform 3.0 Released

[Anil Gulecha]

Hi All,

On behalf of the Nexenta project, I'd like to announce the
availability of the Nexenta Core Platform 3.0.

You can download the latest iso image from
http://www.nexenta.org/projects/site/wiki/DownloadStable

This is the same iso as the RC3 release.

---

The near future: NCP 3.9

The move to NCP 4.0 will be in 2 phases. The first immediate change
would be to move from OpenSolaris b134 to a recent Illumos build. With
this the Nexenta project will change it's base from OpenSolaris to
Illumos.

If you're unaware of Illumos, it is a branch of OpenSolaris ON gate,
with closed bits replaced with open code. More information at
http://www.illumos.org

---

The mid-term future: NCP 4.0

Once we've moved to Illumos as the base, the second phase is the move
from Ubuntu Hardy as our userland base to either newer Debian or
Ubuntu release. This is still being discussed, and we're currently
addressing some of the legal challenges with the effort. There will
shortly be some discussion on the NCP mailing lists about this, and we
welcome the community's participation.

---

Note, you can use the SUN_PERSONALITY variable to get the original
OpenSolaris userland rather than GNU, if you so prefer.

With that, enjoy the NCP3 release!

Regards
--
The Nexenta Team.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Paul Gress]

On 08/18/10 04:00 PM, Hernan Saltiel wrote:
I actually think it will be just like Opensolaris Express (SXCE), but 
with fewer updates with binaries, and Source at an unspecific time, 
meaning the leaked memo stated major milestones, I hope it means after 
every Express release.


This is not what I (and many of us) dreamed about an open source distro.


Well, what have you dreamed of for an open source distro?

Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The unclear future of OpenSolaris codebase

[Erik Trimble]

On Wed, 2010-08-18 at 13:57 -0700, Peter Jones wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Oracle decided not to support further development on Opensolaris as it
>  could not identify a clear opensource business model.Any replacement
>  or sister programme will have to be a business led proposition to be
>  successful.Clearly Oracle is of the view Technical projects per se
>  will not deliver a reliable enough future for tear one customers.Any
>  attempt at a continuation of opensolaris will be business led to
>  attract sponsors and developers longterm commitment. -- 

Don't put words in Oracle's mouth. Certainly don't try to guess what
Larry is thinking. You'll lose every time.

While the above is one *possible* explanation for Oracle's current move,
there are at least several other equally good ones. 

It's far from certain that corporate direction is needed for a
successful OS project. Sponsorship in the form of funding some
developers is really nice, but not necessary.  What *is* critical is
leadership with a clear vision and the consensus of the developer base.
That can come from a myriad of places. c.f. any of the *BSD distros.


-- 
Erik Trimble
Java System Support
Mailstop:  usca22-123
Phone:  x17195
Santa Clara, CA
Timezone: US/Pacific (GMT-0800)

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Ian Collins]

On 08/19/10 07:47 AM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:

Let me guess what the Solaris 11 Express will be:

The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and limited number of CPU 
cores.

   
Unlikely; too much effort would be required to maintain two streams and 
the feedback would be pretty useless.


Most companies use express or beta releases as free QA.  The benefits 
from customer testing outweigh any losses from license abuse.


--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Ian Collins]

On 08/18/10 11:51 PM, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:

* even BSD drivers are different from Solaris drivers, although probably
closer than anything else.  But Mac OS X, although borrowing a lot from
BSD, has a driver interface like nothing else: IOkit, an object oriented
device driver environment, allowing (with limitations) drivers to be
implemented in C++.  So, not only would all drivers have to be massively
rewritten, but each interface can probably do some things that the other
can't (without a lot of work).
   


With limitations, Solaris drivers can also be implemented in C++.  I 
know because I've done it!


--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] The unclear future of OpenSolaris codebase

[Peter Jones]

At the time when latest OpenSolaris source code is still available, a fork 
attempt is possible. We see (and put our hopes into) the Illumos project. There 
are Nexenta and others.

The question is: Which fork will receive the most stunning evolution? Solaris 
11? Illumos? Other? The answer is not obvious.

-citation from the leaked Oracle's memo-
We can’t do everything. The limiting factor
is our engineering bandwidth measured in people and time.
-end citation-

What if some project like Illumos would get more talented developers than 
Oracle has? Where would you go tomorrow?

Dmitry.

Oracle decided not to support further development on Opensolaris as it could 
not identify a clear opensource business model.Any replacement or sister 
programme will have to be a business led proposition to be successful.Clearly 
Oracle is of the view Technical projects per se will not deliver a reliable 
enough future for tear one customers.Any attempt at a continuation of 
opensolaris will be business led to attract sponsors and developers longterm 
commitment.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Hernan Saltiel]

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Paul Gress  wrote:

>  On 08/18/10 03:47 PM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
>
> Let me guess what the Solaris 11 Express will be:
>
> The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
> Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and limited number of CPU 
> cores.
>
> Hope that it will be free (at least for non-commercial use) for unlimited 
> period of time. Hope it will be sufficient to power up a small university 
> server.
>
>
>
>
> I actually think it will be just like Opensolaris Express (SXCE), but with
> fewer updates with binaries, and Source at an unspecific time, meaning the
> leaked memo stated major milestones, I hope it means after every Express
> release.
>

This is not what I (and many of us) dreamed about an open source distro.
Best regards,

HeCSa.


>
> Paul
>
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Paul Gress]

On 08/18/10 03:47 PM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:

Let me guess what the Solaris 11 Express will be:

The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and limited number of CPU 
cores.

Hope that it will be free (at least for non-commercial use) for unlimited 
period of time. Hope it will be sufficient to power up a small university 
server.

   


I actually think it will be just like Opensolaris Express (SXCE), but 
with fewer updates with binaries, and Source at an unspecific time, 
meaning the leaked memo stated major milestones, I hope it means after 
every Express release.


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The unclear future of OpenSolaris codebase

[Paul Gress]

On 08/18/10 03:39 PM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:

At the time when latest OpenSolaris source code is still available, a fork 
attempt is possible. We see (and put our hopes into) the Illumos project. There 
are Nexenta and others.

The question is: Which fork will receive the most stunning evolution? Solaris 
11? Illumos? Other? The answer is not obvious.

-citation from the leaked Oracle's memo-
We canâEUR^(TM)t do everything. The limiting factor
is our engineering bandwidth measured in people and time.
-end citation-

What if some project like Illumos would get more talented developers than 
Oracle has? Where would you go tomorrow?
   


What I hope is that Illumos will go where Oracle won't.  That to me 
would be a Desktop-Workstation-Laptop direction.  My belief is most 
people/companies who use servers or Oracle Databases will follow the 
path to Solaris 11.  Since Oracle has no interest otherwise, I see it as 
the opportunity.


Only time will tell, I'm going to be here, god willing.

Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Dmitry G. Kozhinov]

Let me guess what the Solaris 11 Express will be:

The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and limited number of CPU 
cores.

Hope that it will be free (at least for non-commercial use) for unlimited 
period of time. Hope it will be sufficient to power up a small university 
server.

Dmitry.
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[osol-discuss] The unclear future of OpenSolaris codebase

[Dmitry G. Kozhinov]

At the time when latest OpenSolaris source code is still available, a fork 
attempt is possible. We see (and put our hopes into) the Illumos project. There 
are Nexenta and others.

The question is: Which fork will receive the most stunning evolution? Solaris 
11? Illumos? Other? The answer is not obvious.

-citation from the leaked Oracle's memo-
We can’t do everything. The limiting factor
is our engineering bandwidth measured in people and time.
-end citation-

What if some project like Illumos would get more talented developers than 
Oracle has? Where would you go tomorrow?
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Re: [osol-discuss] honeypot

[Will Fiveash]

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 09:08:11PM +0200, Günther Schmidt wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'd like to see what kind of network connection attempts are being
> made to my box, what's the easiest way to do that?

I've cc'ed security-disc...@opensolaris.org as that's probably a better
list to discuss your issue.

-- 
Will Fiveash
Oracle
http://opensolaris.org/os/project/kerberos/
Sent using mutt, a sweet text based e-mail app: http://www.mutt.org/
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Re: [osol-discuss] honeypot

[Ignacio Marambio Catán]

http://blogs.sun.com/albertw/entry/ipfilter_logging

2010/8/18 Günther Schmidt :
> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to see what kind of network connection attempts are being made to
> my box, what's the easiest way to do that?
>
> Günther
>
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[osol-discuss] honeypot

[Günther Schmidt]

Hi all,

I'd like to see what kind of network connection attempts are being made 
to my box, what's the easiest way to do that?


Günther

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[David Brodbeck]

On Aug 18, 2010, at 3:43 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:

> Gabriele Bulfon  wrote:
> 
>> We should not forget that Larry & Steve are said to be old time friends.
>> Apple showed great interest on ZFS (as any other OS vendor, be it interest 
>> or envy). Who knows what caused the decision to drop it? Maybe Steve was 
>> aware of next Solaris happenings?
>> 
>> I see no other reason why any OS vendor would drop such an amazing 
>> technology.
> 
> I've talked to a person who was invited by Apple to the private ZFS 
> demonstration some time ago. At that time, Mac OS X would immediately panic 
> once ZFS was mounted R/W. It is not a simple task, to include filesystem code 
> that was designed for a single-context kernel into a multi-context kernel OS
> like Mac OS X.
> 
> The other problem was that Apple wantet ZFS for free plus a legal 
> indemnification on patent lawsuits.

I'm also not so sure ZFS made that much sense for Apple.  They sell some 
servers, but their target market is desktops and laptops.  ZFS is great on a 
server, where you have multiple disks for redundancy and lots of RAM to satisfy 
ZFS's vast hunger for memory.  On a single-disk laptop?  Not so much.  
Remember, Apple still sells base systems with 2 GB of RAM.  Even 4 GB is 
sometimes not sufficient to make ZFS happy, in my experience.  (On one of my 4 
GB fileservers ZFS would sometimes consume so much RAM that the ethernet driver 
couldn't allocate buffers.)  I don't think ZFS was going to be a good end user 
experience on a typical Apple machine.

-- 

David Brodbeck
System Administrator, Linguistics
University of Washington




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Re: [osol-discuss] Which is the best target build to choice hoping some good news?

[Thommy M . Malmström]

> Hi,
> I'm an OS's user, my laptop run snv_118.
> I'd like to mantain OS, waiting for some good news
> from the community, but in the meantime I'd like to
> upgrade to a newer version.
> I have just one question: which build is considered
> more stable than others (from 118 to 134)?
> I remember that snv_134 was afflicted by some
> critical issues.
> Is possible to upgrade to a specific build or, if the
> best/unique chose is to upgrade to build 134, is
> there a guide to "patch" that release?

I've been running b134 since it came out and have had no problems so far on 
laptop Acer Ferrari 4000 and home built server with AMD...
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Re: [osol-discuss] Oracle sues Google over Java!

[Brian Utterback]

On 08/17/10 18:55, Edward Martinez wrote:

this bit is what gave me that thought.

excerpt:
Oracle Corp. is not planning to cooperate with the Illumos project and 
OpenSolaris community, according to a leaked internal company memo.
Oracle's plans pose a threat to ZFS-based storage systems that use OpenSolaris code, 
although the CEO of Nexenta Systems Inc. said neither the vendor's ZFS storage 
system or Illumos will change as a result. "

http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid5_gci1518636,00.html


What leaked memo is that? The only leaked memo that I have seen 
(actually, I was on the cc: list for the original memo, so I didn't 
have to wait for the leak) didn't mention Illumos at all. My take is 
not that Oracle plans on not cooperating with Illumos, it is that 
Oracle is not planning on cooperating with Illumos. That is, Illumos 
is not on the roadmap, one way or another. I may be wrong, I am not 
privy to any inside info, and apparently even when I am, it is in the 
News the next day anyway.



--
blu

It's bad civic hygiene to build technologies that could someday be
used to facilitate a police state. - Bruce Schneier
---|
Brian Utterback - Solaris RPE, Oracle Corporation.
Ph:603-262-3916, Em:brian.utterb...@oracle.com
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Hugh McIntyre]

Gabriele Bulfon wrote:

Well, yes...I understand, but...
...what Apple did with OSX is something nobody ever did on any unix: bring an 
amazing and totally usable desktop to a unix system!
Also, switching from OS9 to OSX was a total change, both of the underlying system 
AND of the underlying hardware & processor. Still, bringing portability of 
older code with some kind of emulation.
No OS did this, AFAIK.

If they could do this, maybe they could even move to Solaris :) I believe it 
would be a far easier path than the one they did from OS9 to OSX.


As Richard pointed out, porting would be a ton of work with very little 
visible benefit for most MacOS desktop users, to say nothing of the ISVs 
who would need to port their apps.  Some of the ISVs would drop OS X.


There's also the question of iOS users (iPhone/iPad) which Apple needs 
to support and for whom the benefit is even less obvious.


And even if this was an easy change for Apple (it's not) it's unlikely 
Apple would want to do this because they would then not have control of 
the kernel in the OS they are using.  I.e. if Oracle makes changes that 
benefit large servers but hurt desktops, Apple does not want to be in 
the position of having to accept Oracle's changes even if they don't 
match Apple's roadmap.


For example, what if Apple wants some kernel changes for iOS 
(handhelds)?  Right now Apple controls this, but if they were using 
Solaris they would lose control.


Summary: you can be pretty sure this is not going to happen.

Hugh.
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[osol-discuss] Which is the best target build to choice hoping some good news?

[Massimiliano Pampana]

Hi,
I'm an OS's user, my laptop run snv_118.
I'd like to mantain OS, waiting for some good news from the community, but in 
the meantime I'd like to upgrade to a newer version.
I have just one question: which build is considered more stable than others 
(from 118 to 134)?
I remember that snv_134 was afflicted by some critical issues.
Is possible to upgrade to a specific build or, if the best/unique chose is to 
upgrade to build 134, is there a guide to "patch" that release?

Thanks in advance
Massimiliano
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Re: [osol-discuss] @Oracle employees: OpenSolaris updates up to Solaris 11

[ken mays]

Ref: http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/migration_program.jsp

1. Solaris 10 -> Solaris 11 (Express)
2. Migrating to Solaris 10/11 from other operating systems
3. OTN portal (when all else fails, seek out the Oracle Technology Network.

Migrating from Solaris 10 to Solaris 11 can be done in some very basic steps. 
This is only based on my migrations from Solaris Legacy OSes to 
OpenSolaris-based OS installs.

Protect and backup important data at all costs!

~ Ken Mays



--- On Wed, 8/18/10, Stephan Ferraro  wrote:

> From: Stephan Ferraro 
> Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] @Oracle employees: OpenSolaris updates up to 
> Solaris 11
> To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 10:59 AM
> I'm curious to know how the migration
> from OpenSolaris snv_134 to Solaris 11 Express will happen.
> The simplest solution would be to run simply "pkg
> image-update" on global and local zones.
> 
> I hope it would not be required to have two separate
> physical servers to do the migration (it would explode the
> costs at hosting services).
> 
> I hope too that the kernel will be still open source in
> Solaris 11.
> -- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] @Oracle employees: OpenSolaris updates up to Solaris 11

[Ignacio Marambio Catán]

Solaris 11 express is not even official. Oracle employees are very
likely not allowed to share details, sun's days where they could talk
about what was next are over

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Stephan Ferraro  wrote:
> I'm curious to know how the migration from OpenSolaris snv_134 to Solaris 11 
> Express will happen.
> The simplest solution would be to run simply "pkg image-update" on global and 
> local zones.
>
> I hope it would not be required to have two separate physical servers to do 
> the migration (it would explode the costs at hosting services).
>
> I hope too that the kernel will be still open source in Solaris 11.
> --
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Re: [osol-discuss] @Oracle employees: OpenSolaris updates up to Solaris 11

[Stephan Ferraro]

I'm curious to know how the migration from OpenSolaris snv_134 to Solaris 11 
Express will happen.
The simplest solution would be to run simply "pkg image-update" on global and 
local zones.

I hope it would not be required to have two separate physical servers to do the 
migration (it would explode the costs at hosting services).

I hope too that the kernel will be still open source in Solaris 11.
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Re: [osol-discuss] @Oracle employees: OpenSolaris updates up to Solaris 11

[Alan Coopersmith]

Ivan Wang wrote:
>> Stephan Ferraro wrote:
>>> could you please provide OpenSolaris updates up to
>> that Solaris 11 comes out?
>>> It makes no sense for everybody here to switch to
>> Solaris 10 which has less features than OpenSolaris.
>>
>> As John Fowler recently announced, preview releases
>> of Solaris 11 should
>> be out later this year - you should be able to use
>> those until Solaris 11
>> comes out instead of moving back to Solaris 10.
> 
> But what about after Solaris 11 reaches FCS? will Solaris Express become a 
> persisting program then?

I don't know what the plans are then.

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System

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Re: [osol-discuss] @Oracle employees: OpenSolaris updates up to Solaris 11

[Ivan Wang]

> Stephan Ferraro wrote:
> > could you please provide OpenSolaris updates up to
> that Solaris 11 comes out?
> > It makes no sense for everybody here to switch to
> Solaris 10 which has less features than OpenSolaris.
> 
> As John Fowler recently announced, preview releases
> of Solaris 11 should
> be out later this year - you should be able to use
> those until Solaris 11
> comes out instead of moving back to Solaris 10.

But what about after Solaris 11 reaches FCS? will Solaris Express become a 
persisting program then?

Thanks
Ivan

> 
> -- 
> -Alan Coopersmith-
> -alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
> Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window
> ow System
> 
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Re: [osol-discuss] @Oracle employees: OpenSolaris updates up to Solaris 11

[Alan Coopersmith]

Stephan Ferraro wrote:
> could you please provide OpenSolaris updates up to that Solaris 11 comes out?
> It makes no sense for everybody here to switch to Solaris 10 which has less 
> features than OpenSolaris.

As John Fowler recently announced, preview releases of Solaris 11 should
be out later this year - you should be able to use those until Solaris 11
comes out instead of moving back to Solaris 10.

-- 
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 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Gabriele Bulfon]

Well, yes...I understand, but...
...what Apple did with OSX is something nobody ever did on any unix: bring an 
amazing and totally usable desktop to a unix system!
Also, switching from OS9 to OSX was a total change, both of the underlying 
system AND of the underlying hardware & processor. Still, bringing portability 
of older code with some kind of emulation.
No OS did this, AFAIK.

If they could do this, maybe they could even move to Solaris :) I believe it 
would be a far easier path than the one they did from OS9 to OSX.

At lastthey may just pick up OpenSolaris and continue it as an OSX 
server.it's servers that we care of, when we talk about Solaris, afterall...
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Re: [osol-discuss] Oracle sues Google over Java!

[usafverteran]

"There may be an argument"

And you received you law schooling from Wikipedia and Google or perhaps Harvard 
or Pepperdine?

I find it amusing that people with no exerience in law are throwing around 
their knowledge of patent and contract law, and how Google and/or Oracle is 
wrong/right about this/that and if Google would have done that, they wouldn't 
have infringed on their use of Java.

Keep them coming!
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Frank Lahm]

2010/8/18 Richard L. Hamilton :
> Even for file service to Macs, I think I'd rather
> run recent netatalk on a zfs-based NAS (Nexenta or FreeBSD, maybe).
> (I'd like it even better if netatalk knew how to stick extra metadata
> and resource forks into named attributes (where available), rather than
> scattering ._* files around.)

Netatalk 2.1.x actually does support and use EAs:


Cheers, F.!
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Richard L. Hamilton]

> We should not forget that Larry & Steve are said to
> be old time friends.
> Apple showed great interest on ZFS (as any other OS
> vendor, be it interest or envy). Who knows what
> caused the decision to drop it? Maybe Steve was aware
> of next Solaris happenings?

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/zfs-discuss/2009-October/033125.html

So no, I don't think it was the good old boy network that killed ZFS
(at least for now) on Apple.

> I see no other reason why any OS vendor would drop
> such an amazing technology.
> 
> Darwin may even be solid, but moving OSX to an
> OpenSolaris base would let Apple enter a much more
> solid server market, and finally we would also have
> an amazing desktop for Solaris as a client.
> Just think about a bright future with companies
> running:
> - iDesktops with OSX on iSolaris (instead of
> Windows)
> - iDesktops running OpenOffice (iOffice?) on OSX
> (instead of M$Office)
> - iServers running iSolaris with all the server stuff
> you can run on (instead of Windows servers).
> - iStorage based on iSolaris+ZFS etc. etc. (in this
> case you may have many other compatible choices)
> 
> Would you still need to run Windows networks?
> 
> Let's make a petition to Mr. Jobs. ;)

I'd love it.  But there would be some stiff problems:
* OS X apps don't just use POSIX interfaces, they also use at least
some Mach interfaces.  Simulating those under (not so Open)Solaris
might be tough.
* even BSD drivers are different from Solaris drivers, although probably
closer than anything else.  But Mac OS X, although borrowing a lot from
BSD, has a driver interface like nothing else: IOkit, an object oriented
device driver environment, allowing (with limitations) drivers to be
implemented in C++.  So, not only would all drivers have to be massively
rewritten, but each interface can probably do some things that the other
can't (without a lot of work).
* different object file format (although actually, Solaris is pretty extensible
in that regard...would still take some work to be compatible, though)
* radically different approach to graphics and audio; I don't even begin
to know enough about the deep levels of how that works on a Mac, but
again, it would take a lot to adapt that to a Solaris kernel

Given the existing apps base for OS X, binary compatibility as well as
comparable graphics and audio performance, would be critical, IMO.
And those would be difficult indeed.

I certainly understand the temptation, though.  The Mac GUI apps and
userland frameworks are generally pretty impressive.  The XNU kernel
though, isn't (IMO) anywhere near as robust as Solaris, and OS X doesn't
have anything close to zfs (DTrace is also a bit lame there 'cause you
have to be root to use it, last I checked); I've crashed my Mac a good
deal more than I've crashed Solaris boxes (give or take messing around
with my own kernel code), although both are better than Windows.
And while the developer IDE is impressive, other tools to examine
processes aren't so good; nothing quite like pmap, for instance (although
I did stumble across something that gave some limited description
of process address spaces, but not to the point of spelling out what
was mapped where, stack, heap, etc); or like /proc (discounting
the MacFUSE /proc, which I've never gotten to continue working).
(On the plus side, OS X does actually include a supported port of
lsof.)  Another example: on Solaris, one can delete swap (assuming sufficient
RAM to page in whatever is out there); there's no obvious way to
do that on a Mac.  OS X is generally good enough for a desktop (and
the GUI goes a long way to making one want to forgive the weaknesses
of the kernel), but I don't think it's really up for being a robust general
purpose server...not beyond moderate loads of OS X specific services
provided to OS X clients.  Even for file service to Macs, I think I'd rather
run recent netatalk on a zfs-based NAS (Nexenta or FreeBSD, maybe).
(I'd like it even better if netatalk knew how to stick extra metadata
and resource forks into named attributes (where available), rather than
scattering ._* files around.)
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[usafverteran]

"Where is there anything more authoritative than just the rumors spread on
this mailing list?"

I would say that you need to give up your disbelief that OpenSolaris is no 
more, gone, caput, aidios, ciao, goodbye, bye bye, dead, and has been for some 
time.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[usafverteran]

That's classic!
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Orvar Korvar]

What is the difference between single-context kernel and multi-context?
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

[Joerg Schilling]

Gabriele Bulfon  wrote:

> We should not forget that Larry & Steve are said to be old time friends.
> Apple showed great interest on ZFS (as any other OS vendor, be it interest or 
> envy). Who knows what caused the decision to drop it? Maybe Steve was aware 
> of next Solaris happenings?
>
> I see no other reason why any OS vendor would drop such an amazing technology.

I've talked to a person who was invited by Apple to the private ZFS 
demonstration some time ago. At that time, Mac OS X would immediately panic 
once ZFS was mounted R/W. It is not a simple task, to include filesystem code 
that was designed for a single-context kernel into a multi-context kernel OS
like Mac OS X.

The other problem was that Apple wantet ZFS for free plus a legal 
indemnification on patent lawsuits.

Jörg

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Re: [osol-discuss] Oracle sues Google over Java!

[Joerg Schilling]

Edward Martinez  wrote:

> excerpt:
> Oracle Corp. is not planning to cooperate with the Illumos project and 
> OpenSolaris community, according to a leaked internal company memo. 

Given the way Oracle makes public statements, I am sure that we need to wait in 
order to know for sure whether or not Oracle like to cooperate with Illumos. 
Let us concentrate on coding and wait...

Jörg

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[osol-discuss] @Oracle employees: OpenSolaris updates up to Solaris 11

[Stephan Ferraro]

Dear Oracle employees,

could you please provide OpenSolaris updates up to that Solaris 11 comes out?
It makes no sense for everybody here to switch to Solaris 10 which has less 
features than OpenSolaris.

Specially updates of Sunstudio would be great.

Thanks to forward my message to your managers.
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