Re: [opensource-dev] client-side physics and general relativity

2010-04-15 Thread Tateru Nino
Hmm. However, with virtual objects the physical properties aren't fixed.
Unlike regular matter, the physical properties of an SL object can
change at any time. In fact - and I grant I only have anecdotal
information to support this - I think it is less likely for an object's
physical properties to remain constant than it is for them to change.

On 16/04/2010 2:57 PM, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
> I want to share a use-case/concept for physic simulation where the 
> client and sever wouldn't have to send object updates, or at least there 
> wouldn't be as many updates needed to send from the sim to the client.
>
> Given we can use general relativity more as a mutual agreement rather 
> than assume it is the only way reality changes; we could further expend 
> such mutual agreement between a server and client as they simulate 
> physics. Now don't expect FTL changes for this, yet we can use the same 
> analogy and define a limit. Let's use one that LL has already defined as 
> max velocity an object moves through a sim.
>
> Now, let's say we have two objects. Object (A) is within 10m to an 
> avatar. Another object (B) is 50m away for that avatar. Now, since 
> object (A) is within a distance an object can move within a second of 
> max velocity, the client can be given rights to simulate object (A), and 
> the simulator wouldn't send any updates to the client if the client does 
> such. Since object (B) is outside the distance of an object can move 
> within a second at max velocity, the simulator would continue to send 
> updates to the client about object (b) only if in view (as it does now).
>
> If object (A) and object (B) are static, as in they never move, then the 
> client would fully control its position within that relative second of 
> space and all physics. If the avatar bounces off the static object, the 
> client doesn't need to send updates to the sim unless the object needs 
> to know if it was touched.
>
> If the objects aren't static or if there are more avatars, then there 
> are several negotiation and scenarios that could happen, yet let's not 
> digress immediately away from the basic use-case/concept stated above.
>
> Bottomline, this should be negotiable. The sim may not allow it at all 
> if if the sim needs full physics control. The avatar may want to only be 
> in sims that don't take full control of physics. If the client simulates 
> some objects then the sim is expect to simulate the same objects. The 
> two simulations should be basically in sync, yet accuracy of being in 
> sync should be negotiable also.
>
> Relative second of space can be quickly calculated, for example, ( max 
> diameter of avatar + 1 second distance of max velocity ) * 3.333...  
> (basically like pi r squared)
>
> =)
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Anders Arnholm
Joel Foner wrote:
> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal 
> (os-dev posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's 
> say the last 30 days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual 
> os-dev discussion happened. Maybe I'm just missing it. 
The legal issues, what you are allowed to write is IMHO as impoartant as 
the how to write stuff. Escially if the you are allowed to write stuff 
is in question. The TPV police is imho defiltly signal on the deveopler 
list.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Anders Arnholm
VR Hacks wrote:
> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it would 
> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary distribution. 
>   
The EULA however in most of the world have no legal meaning, except it 
can give the user rights against the developer. For a license to be 
valid i have to be agreed by both parts before getting the product. 
Shrink wrap licenses and deals are frowed upon by most legal systems.

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[opensource-dev] client-side physics and general relativity

2010-04-15 Thread Dzonatas Sol
I want to share a use-case/concept for physic simulation where the 
client and sever wouldn't have to send object updates, or at least there 
wouldn't be as many updates needed to send from the sim to the client.

Given we can use general relativity more as a mutual agreement rather 
than assume it is the only way reality changes; we could further expend 
such mutual agreement between a server and client as they simulate 
physics. Now don't expect FTL changes for this, yet we can use the same 
analogy and define a limit. Let's use one that LL has already defined as 
max velocity an object moves through a sim.

Now, let's say we have two objects. Object (A) is within 10m to an 
avatar. Another object (B) is 50m away for that avatar. Now, since 
object (A) is within a distance an object can move within a second of 
max velocity, the client can be given rights to simulate object (A), and 
the simulator wouldn't send any updates to the client if the client does 
such. Since object (B) is outside the distance of an object can move 
within a second at max velocity, the simulator would continue to send 
updates to the client about object (b) only if in view (as it does now).

If object (A) and object (B) are static, as in they never move, then the 
client would fully control its position within that relative second of 
space and all physics. If the avatar bounces off the static object, the 
client doesn't need to send updates to the sim unless the object needs 
to know if it was touched.

If the objects aren't static or if there are more avatars, then there 
are several negotiation and scenarios that could happen, yet let's not 
digress immediately away from the basic use-case/concept stated above.

Bottomline, this should be negotiable. The sim may not allow it at all 
if if the sim needs full physics control. The avatar may want to only be 
in sims that don't take full control of physics. If the client simulates 
some objects then the sim is expect to simulate the same objects. The 
two simulations should be basically in sync, yet accuracy of being in 
sync should be negotiable also.

Relative second of space can be quickly calculated, for example, ( max 
diameter of avatar + 1 second distance of max velocity ) * 3.333...  
(basically like pi r squared)

=)


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Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

2010-04-15 Thread Boy Lane
Looking at this mailing list the meeting with Joe did not do anything but put 
new oil in the fire. People start the same interpretation of intentions all 
over again that were already discussed to death. Intentions were never 
questioned. I don't really know what the point is of going through all of this 
once again.

TPV very clearly and unambiguous states that I as a developer have to take any 
and all responsibility for everything, universal guilt for making a 3rd party 
viewer. And unless this is reworded there is no basis for any interpretation.

So this whole discussion and valid arguments will fade into noise, bubbles and 
blurry opinions mostly from people who do not even have a stake in it. Nothing 
will change, LL reconfirmed their intentions instead of putting them down on 
paper in a readable and understandable form. But that was said hundreds of 
time...

Anyway, not my problem anymore. They won and I leave.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Gareth Nelson
Don't go giving LL's lawyers ideas

Seriously, I would not be surprised to find the "IANALP" come out
next, complete with Joe talking about it inworld on voice only

"So, we're here to see how to move forward with people who want to
read any of our policies and dare interpret them - this should not be
allowed, so from now on only registered lawyers can have an SL
account"

No offence Joe - you're a cool guy doing a hard job :)

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Brent Tubbs  wrote:
> Good idea!  We could even have a directory of people qualified to talk about
> it who give their RL info so that people show up front which commenters are
> trustworthy.  Any votes for writing this up as the Commenting on the Third
> Party Viewer Policy Policy, or COTTPVPP?
> /snark :)
> Brent
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Dahlia Trimble 
> wrote:
>>
>> I also would be interested in seeing those freely offering their legal
>> advice on this list also describing their qualifications to do so and in
>> which jurisdictions they are licensed to practice law. If not, then please
>> add a "IANAL" or other suitable disclaimer, or mention to what level you
>> would be willing to be responsible for the misfortunes that may happen from
>> others who may take your advice.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Joel Foner  wrote:
>>>
>>> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
>>> posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
>>> days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
>>> happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.
>>> Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.
>>> Joel
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Brent Tubbs
Good idea!  We could even have a directory of people qualified to talk about
it who give their RL info so that people show up front which commenters are
trustworthy.  Any votes for writing this up as the Commenting on the Third
Party Viewer Policy Policy, or COTTPVPP?

/snark :)

Brent

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Dahlia Trimble wrote:

> I also would be interested in seeing those freely offering their legal
> advice on this list also describing their qualifications to do so and in
> which jurisdictions they are licensed to practice law. If not, then please
> add a "IANAL" or other suitable disclaimer, or mention to what level you
> would be willing to be responsible for the misfortunes that may happen from
> others who may take your advice.
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Joel Foner  wrote:
>
>> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
>> posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
>> days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
>> happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.
>>
>> Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.
>>
>> Joel
>>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Dahlia Trimble
I also would be interested in seeing those freely offering their legal
advice on this list also describing their qualifications to do so and in
which jurisdictions they are licensed to practice law. If not, then please
add a "IANAL" or other suitable disclaimer, or mention to what level you
would be willing to be responsible for the misfortunes that may happen from
others who may take your advice.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Joel Foner  wrote:

> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
> posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
> days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
> happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.
>
> Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.
>
> Joel
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Erik Anderson
Unless I'm mistaken this discussion has been going since almost this list's
entire lifetime...

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Joel Foner  wrote:

> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
> posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
> days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
> happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.
>
> Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.
>
> Joel
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Joel Foner
I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.

Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.

Joel
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tony Agudo
Fractured is correct regarding Onyx not breaking GPL. That's how LL was able
to legally keep Viewer 2 under wraps for so long.

On Apr 15, 2010 6:13 PM, "Michael Daniel"  wrote:

VR Hacks wrote:
>> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a
>> cont...
I stand corrected, then.  I wasn't really talking about malicious code,
though.  I was just talking about protection from the worst-case
scenario where a client has an unintended bug in it that causes rolling
restarts, then LL comes after the 3rd party dev for damages.  I meant to
talk about incompetent coders, not malicious coders (I know that none of
the coders on this mailing list fit either description, but it's still
something to think about).  Even LL sidesteps liability for damages done
by the official viewer, so why shouldn't 3rd party devs try to do the
same thing?

On a different subject:  Is Fractured Crystal correct in the following
video when he says that he is not breaking TOS with the Onyx viewer
because he only distributes the source code and not the binaries of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA&feature=player_embedded


Thanks,
~Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia


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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Rob Nelson
The TPV has no differentiation between source code and binary.  The GPL
requires sourcecode distribution anyway.  He's in the wrong and I
suspect he knows it.

Also, to be quite frank, contracts that are designed to be displayed
whenever the user logs into a service should be written so it is clear
to the *user* what their responsibilities and restrictions are.  If you
want to have a "legalese" version, it should be attached as a "more
detailed" link for the lawyers to look at.  No one is going to hire a
lawyer just to look at an e-document every damn time they sign into a
bloody game.  

Fred Rookstown

On Thu, 2010-04-15 at 18:12 -0400, Michael Daniel wrote:
> VR Hacks wrote:
> >> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
> >> contract they made with you, can you?
> >> 
> >
> > Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing 
> > it. 
> I stand corrected, then.  I wasn't really talking about malicious code, 
> though.  I was just talking about protection from the worst-case 
> scenario where a client has an unintended bug in it that causes rolling 
> restarts, then LL comes after the 3rd party dev for damages.  I meant to 
> talk about incompetent coders, not malicious coders (I know that none of 
> the coders on this mailing list fit either description, but it's still 
> something to think about).  Even LL sidesteps liability for damages done 
> by the official viewer, so why shouldn't 3rd party devs try to do the 
> same thing?
> 
> On a different subject:  Is Fractured Crystal correct in the following 
> video when he says that he is not breaking TOS with the Onyx viewer 
> because he only distributes the source code and not the binaries of it?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA&feature=player_embedded 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> ~Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Michael Daniel
VR Hacks wrote:
>> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
>> contract they made with you, can you?
>> 
>
> Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing 
> it. 
I stand corrected, then.  I wasn't really talking about malicious code, 
though.  I was just talking about protection from the worst-case 
scenario where a client has an unintended bug in it that causes rolling 
restarts, then LL comes after the 3rd party dev for damages.  I meant to 
talk about incompetent coders, not malicious coders (I know that none of 
the coders on this mailing list fit either description, but it's still 
something to think about).  Even LL sidesteps liability for damages done 
by the official viewer, so why shouldn't 3rd party devs try to do the 
same thing?

On a different subject:  Is Fractured Crystal correct in the following 
video when he says that he is not breaking TOS with the Onyx viewer 
because he only distributes the source code and not the binaries of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA&feature=player_embedded 


Thanks,
~Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Latif Khalifa
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:38 PM, VR Hacks  wrote:
[snip]
> B) Any developer who develops and/or distributes their viewer is
> "responsible" (please note the operative word, responsible) for whatever
> code they've implemented. In other words, it is up to them to a) debug their
> own code, b) write their own EULA, and c) define & implement a user support
> model. Should they choose to do none of the above, that is their choice, as
> well.
>
> Otherwise put, responsible and smart coders will *always* include a EULA
> with their binary distribution (regardless of whether or not it was designed
> to connect to the grid). Why? Because it sets end user expectation. It
> ensures you, as devs, will not end up in a infinite "support for free" loop,
> and importantly, it provides legal protection should your code have a bug
> that you did not catch.

A smart coder would read the policy himself/herself, and base their
decision based on their own understanding of it, not on an
interpretation of some random person on a mailing list who has no
stake in the matter whatsoever.

Latif
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Discrete Dreamscape
These comments are beginning to seem rather like pure speculation. If you're
concerned about your project or your liabilities, I recommend consulting
with someone from LL or with your lawyer.

Anyhow, the discussion at hand could use some more focus on what further
modifications would be appreciated in the TPVp pending further discussions
with Joe.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 5:24 PM, VR Hacks  wrote:

> Michael wrote in part (full off-list comment is included below sig):
>
> > That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if
> > you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught
> > doing it then you will loose your account.
>
> Yup, something to that effect.
>
> > I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a
> > contract they made with you, can you?
>
> Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing
> it. So, if you choose to distribute that code that allows connection to the
> grid, and even if you included a "connect to the grid at your own risk"
> clause in your EULA, it could easily be shown in a court of law that you
> were attempting to circumvent the lab's TPV policy. In fact, if anything,
> such a clause in the EULA would clearly indicate that you know you're
> distributing a non-compliant viewer for connecting to the SL grid. Again,
> this would only apply if you provided a means for your viewer to connect to
> the SL grid.
>
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
>
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
>
>
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
>
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Michael Daniel" 
> To: "VR Hacks" 
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move
> TPVPTopics to a different mailing list
>
>
> >I know many others have looked at this, but to me the important part of
> the
> >policy is this:
> >
> > "This Policy does not place any restriction on modification or use of our
> > viewer source code 
> > that we make available under the GPL
> > <
> http://secondlifegrid.net/technology-programs/license-virtual-world/viewerlicensing/gplv2
> >.
> > Rather, the Policy sets out requirements for connecting to our Second
> Life
> > service using a Third-Party Viewer, regardless of the viewer source code
> > used, and for participating in our Viewer Directory
> > ."
> >
> > That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if
> > you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught
> > doing it then you will loose your account.
> >
> > If you don't want the liability just toss something in the EULA for your
> > users that makes them agree to not use your TPV to connect to SL and
> > you're covered, I think.  I'm pretty sure that counts as due dilligance.
> > I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a
> > contract they made with you, can you?
> >
> > Again, I'm not a lawyer.
> >
> > ~Bubblesort
> >
> >
> > VR Hacks wrote:
> >> Tigro Spottystripes
> >>
> >>
> >>> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
> >>> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
> >>> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
> >>>
> >>
> >> For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the
> >> linden lab viewer code base to access, say, reaction grid. Let's also
> say
> >> that I do wish to agree to the TPV policy for my code. In other words,
> >> say, I want to include functionality that is allowable on that grid but
> >> not allowable on the SL grid. It is then my "responsibility" to create
> my
> >> viewer such that the option for connecting to the SL grid is not
> >> available without some sort of code change. At which point I can deploy
> >> my code.
> >>
> >> Of course, I still plan to access the second life grid. In order to do
> >> so, I cannot use my viewer. Rather, I must use a viewer that was
> >> developed by som

Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

What is considered malicious varies from grid to grid, someone could for
example setup a grid for the sole purpose of figuring out how strong you
can make a grid against attacks, and for the purpose of helping test it
and find new possibilities of attacks, they could release an example
client that has all sorts of means to attack other clients and even the
grid itself so people have a base to develop on and know how things work
currently etc. Or you could have a grid where the terms of service says
only GPL content can be uploaded to the grid, and have the grid and the
client enforce free copying and modifying (under the terms of GPL) of
all the content.

On 15/4/2010 18:24, VR Hacks wrote:
> Michael wrote in part (full off-list comment is included below sig):
> 
>> That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if 
>> you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught 
>> doing it then you will loose your account.
> 
> Yup, something to that effect.
> 
>> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
>> contract they made with you, can you?
> 
> Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing 
> it. So, if you choose to distribute that code that allows connection to the 
> grid, and even if you included a "connect to the grid at your own risk" 
> clause in your EULA, it could easily be shown in a court of law that you 
> were attempting to circumvent the lab's TPV policy. In fact, if anything, 
> such a clause in the EULA would clearly indicate that you know you're 
> distributing a non-compliant viewer for connecting to the SL grid. Again, 
> this would only apply if you provided a means for your viewer to connect to 
> the SL grid.
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Michael Daniel" 
> To: "VR Hacks" 
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move 
> TPVPTopics to a different mailing list
> 
> 
>> I know many others have looked at this, but to me the important part of the 
>> policy is this:
>>
>> "This Policy does not place any restriction on modification or use of our 
>> viewer source code  
>> that we make available under the GPL 
>> .
>>  
>> Rather, the Policy sets out requirements for connecting to our Second Life 
>> service using a Third-Party Viewer, regardless of the viewer source code 
>> used, and for participating in our Viewer Directory 
>> ."
>>
>> That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if 
>> you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught 
>> doing it then you will loose your account.
>>
>> If you don't want the liability just toss something in the EULA for your 
>> users that makes them agree to not use your TPV to connect to SL and 
>> you're covered, I think.  I'm pretty sure that counts as due dilligance. 
>> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
>> contract they made with you, can you?
>>
>> Again, I'm not a lawyer.
>>
>> ~Bubblesort
>>
>>
>> VR Hacks wrote:
>>> Tigro Spottystripes
>>>
>>>
 Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
 code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
 keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?

>>>
>>> For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the 
>>> linden lab viewer code base to access, say, reaction grid. Let's also say 
>>> that I do wish to agree to the TPV policy for my code. In other words, 
>>> say, I want to include functionality that is allowable on that grid but 
>>> not allowable on the SL grid. It is then my "responsibility" to create m

Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread VR Hacks
Michael wrote in part (full off-list comment is included below sig):

> That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if 
> you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught 
> doing it then you will loose your account.

Yup, something to that effect.

> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
> contract they made with you, can you?

Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing 
it. So, if you choose to distribute that code that allows connection to the 
grid, and even if you included a "connect to the grid at your own risk" 
clause in your EULA, it could easily be shown in a court of law that you 
were attempting to circumvent the lab's TPV policy. In fact, if anything, 
such a clause in the EULA would clearly indicate that you know you're 
distributing a non-compliant viewer for connecting to the SL grid. Again, 
this would only apply if you provided a means for your viewer to connect to 
the SL grid.

Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde


Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Daniel" 
To: "VR Hacks" 
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move 
TPVPTopics to a different mailing list


>I know many others have looked at this, but to me the important part of the 
>policy is this:
>
> "This Policy does not place any restriction on modification or use of our 
> viewer source code  
> that we make available under the GPL 
> .
>  
> Rather, the Policy sets out requirements for connecting to our Second Life 
> service using a Third-Party Viewer, regardless of the viewer source code 
> used, and for participating in our Viewer Directory 
> ."
>
> That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if 
> you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught 
> doing it then you will loose your account.
>
> If you don't want the liability just toss something in the EULA for your 
> users that makes them agree to not use your TPV to connect to SL and 
> you're covered, I think.  I'm pretty sure that counts as due dilligance. 
> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
> contract they made with you, can you?
>
> Again, I'm not a lawyer.
>
> ~Bubblesort
>
>
> VR Hacks wrote:
>> Tigro Spottystripes
>>
>>
>>> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
>>> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
>>> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
>>>
>>
>> For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the 
>> linden lab viewer code base to access, say, reaction grid. Let's also say 
>> that I do wish to agree to the TPV policy for my code. In other words, 
>> say, I want to include functionality that is allowable on that grid but 
>> not allowable on the SL grid. It is then my "responsibility" to create my 
>> viewer such that the option for connecting to the SL grid is not 
>> available without some sort of code change. At which point I can deploy 
>> my code.
>>
>> Of course, I still plan to access the second life grid. In order to do 
>> so, I cannot use my viewer. Rather, I must use a viewer that was 
>> developed by someone who agreed to the TPV policy (as put forth in the 
>> new ToS). In other words, as long as I am using a viewer that adheres to 
>> the TPV policy, all is well. And I can cavort in SL to my heart's 
>> content.
>>
>> This, of course, raises an interesting scenario. If I have coded a client 
>> that, say, ignores the lab's import/export requirements, and I have 
>> chosen to exclude SL grid access, yet, Joe Developer comes along and 
>> chooses to use my code base, and add in SL grid access, then the onus is 
>> upon Joe Developer to change the import/export feat

[opensource-dev] Fwd: Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

(just bouncing back to the list)

-  Original Message 
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move
TPVPTopics to a different mailing list
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:06:19 -0400
From: Michael Daniel 
To: Tigro Spottystripes 

IANAL, but that seems correct to me.  The TPV policy does not regulate
what people can and can not make on the internet.  It is not a gag order
preventing you from writing whatever code you like.  From what I can
tell, the policy just says that it is against TOS to run viewers that do
X Y and Z.  If you publish a viewer that is designed to connect to OS
and it just happens to also connect to SL, that is not your problem.
That is LL's problem.

~Bubblesort


Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
> viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
> 
> On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
>   
>> Tigro wrote:
> 
> 
>>> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
>>>   
>> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it would 
>> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary distribution. 
>> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must retain said 
>> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> 
>> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
>> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
>> 
>> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
>> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
>> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
>> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
>> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
>> --
>> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
>> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
>> ___
>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting 
>> privileges
> 
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

About that "interesting scenario", the TPVp doesn't seem to care about
how many steps and hands separate the original code you did and what was
used to generate the binary Joe Developer uses to log in SL.

On 15/4/2010 17:19, VR Hacks wrote:
> Tigro Spottystripes
> 
>> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
>> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
>> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
> 
> For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the linden 
> lab viewer code base to access, say, reaction grid. Let's also say that I do 
> wish to agree to the TPV policy for my code. In other words, say, I want to 
> include functionality that is allowable on that grid but not allowable on 
> the SL grid. It is then my "responsibility" to create my viewer such that 
> the option for connecting to the SL grid is not available without some sort 
> of code change. At which point I can deploy my code.
> 
> Of course, I still plan to access the second life grid. In order to do so, I 
> cannot use my viewer. Rather, I must use a viewer that was developed by 
> someone who agreed to the TPV policy (as put forth in the new ToS). In other 
> words, as long as I am using a viewer that adheres to the TPV policy, all is 
> well. And I can cavort in SL to my heart's content.
> 
> This, of course, raises an interesting scenario. If I have coded a client 
> that, say, ignores the lab's import/export requirements, and I have chosen 
> to exclude SL grid access, yet, Joe Developer comes along and chooses to use 
> my code base, and add in SL grid access, then the onus is upon Joe Developer 
> to change the import/export feature to meet the TPV policy guidelines if he 
> wants his viewer to connect to the grid. Or, he can take his chances. 
> Nonetheless, since Joe Developer is the one who changed the code to connect 
> to the grid, the policy applies to him., not to you. And therefore it is his 
> responsibility to ensure his code adheres to the TPV policy.
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I don't think developers are gonna be happy with LL threatening to kill
their accounts and bring them to court because of their non-SL related
activities.

IMO, LL should restrict their rules to only stuff done by connecting to
their machines; so only actual users would be affected, and only for
things users do while using LL's services. LL should not sue pencil
makers because someone was stabbed with a pencil in their office.


IMO the TPVp doesn't need to exist, and shouldn't. The TOS already had
all the rules regarding unauthorized copying, misuse of LL's services
etc, and in many cases, real world laws already existed to take care of
things, the TOS didn't even have to mention the unlawful activities.

For most things, LL should just have a friendly reminder for people to
not break the law, and of course, LL should cooperate with law
enforcement etc, and obey the laws themselves too of course.


I know SL isn't a site (contrary to what many bloggers and even
professional reporters seem to think), but i haven't heard of any site
that offers some service that has their terms of service restricting
which browsers users can use, much less try to blame browser makers for
actions done by users.


Summing up, forget thinking of things in terms of viewers, and forget
developers, deal with users and their actions, and with the law.

On 15/4/2010 17:09, Discrete Dreamscape wrote:
> Devs for other grids that don't need to agree to LL's policy probably
> wouldn't have anything to worry about at all, especially if they
> included EULAs with the right terms. As for residents, I wouldn't say
> their account becomes 'unsafe.' However, my (emphasis on my)
> interpretation of the policy is that you would be "responsible" (read:
> liable) to LL for the results of your code.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
> mailto:tigrospottystri...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
> 
> On 15/4/2010 17:00, Discrete Dreamscape wrote:
>> I would assume that, to be more detailed, your code would either not
>> allow connections to the LL grid, or you would have to decline the
>> updated ToS/TPVp, thus not agreeing to be bound to it but also
>> preventing you from using the LL grid yourself.
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
>>  
>  >> wrote:
> 
>> So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
>> viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
> 
>> On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
>>> Tigro wrote:
> 
 What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> 
>>> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and
>> imo, it would
>>> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary
>> distribution.
>>> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must
>> retain said
>>> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> 
>>> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
>>> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
>>> 
>>> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
>>> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
>>> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
>>> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
>>> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
>>> --
>>> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
>>> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar
>> Wilde
> 
>>> ___
>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated
>> posting privileges
> 
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread VR Hacks
Tigro Spottystripes

> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?

For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the linden 
lab viewer code base to access, say, reaction grid. Let's also say that I do 
wish to agree to the TPV policy for my code. In other words, say, I want to 
include functionality that is allowable on that grid but not allowable on 
the SL grid. It is then my "responsibility" to create my viewer such that 
the option for connecting to the SL grid is not available without some sort 
of code change. At which point I can deploy my code.

Of course, I still plan to access the second life grid. In order to do so, I 
cannot use my viewer. Rather, I must use a viewer that was developed by 
someone who agreed to the TPV policy (as put forth in the new ToS). In other 
words, as long as I am using a viewer that adheres to the TPV policy, all is 
well. And I can cavort in SL to my heart's content.

This, of course, raises an interesting scenario. If I have coded a client 
that, say, ignores the lab's import/export requirements, and I have chosen 
to exclude SL grid access, yet, Joe Developer comes along and chooses to use 
my code base, and add in SL grid access, then the onus is upon Joe Developer 
to change the import/export feature to meet the TPV policy guidelines if he 
wants his viewer to connect to the grid. Or, he can take his chances. 
Nonetheless, since Joe Developer is the one who changed the code to connect 
to the grid, the policy applies to him., not to you. And therefore it is his 
responsibility to ensure his code adheres to the TPV policy.

Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Discrete Dreamscape
Devs for other grids that don't need to agree to LL's policy probably
wouldn't have anything to worry about at all, especially if they included
EULAs with the right terms. As for residents, I wouldn't say their account
becomes 'unsafe.' However, my (emphasis on my) interpretation of the policy
is that you would be "responsible" (read: liable) to LL for the results of
your code.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
>
> On 15/4/2010 17:00, Discrete Dreamscape wrote:
> > I would assume that, to be more detailed, your code would either not
> > allow connections to the LL grid, or you would have to decline the
> > updated ToS/TPVp, thus not agreeing to be bound to it but also
> > preventing you from using the LL grid yourself.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
> > mailto:tigrospottystri...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
> > viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
> >
> > On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
> >> Tigro wrote:
> >
> >>> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> >
> >> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and
> > imo, it would
> >> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary
> > distribution.
> >> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must
> > retain said
> >> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> >
> >> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> >> MA Forensic Psychology
> >
> >> 
> >> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> >> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> >> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> >> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> >> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> >> --
> >> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> >> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar
> > Wilde
> >
> >> ___
> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated
> > posting privileges
> >
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?

On 15/4/2010 17:00, Discrete Dreamscape wrote:
> I would assume that, to be more detailed, your code would either not
> allow connections to the LL grid, or you would have to decline the
> updated ToS/TPVp, thus not agreeing to be bound to it but also
> preventing you from using the LL grid yourself.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
> mailto:tigrospottystri...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
> viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
> 
> On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
>> Tigro wrote:
> 
>>> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> 
>> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and
> imo, it would
>> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary
> distribution.
>> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must
> retain said
>> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> 
>> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
>> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
>> 
>> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
>> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
>> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
>> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
>> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
>> --
>> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
>> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar
> Wilde
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Discrete Dreamscape
I would assume that, to be more detailed, your code would either not allow
connections to the LL grid, or you would have to decline the updated
ToS/TPVp, thus not agreeing to be bound to it but also preventing you from
using the LL grid yourself.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
> viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
>
> On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
> > Tigro wrote:
> >
> >> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> >
> > Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it
> would
> > still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary
> distribution.
> > And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must retain
> said
> > GPL with the souce code distribution.
> >
> > Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> > MA Forensic Psychology
> >
> > 
> > VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> > VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> > VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> > Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> > Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> > --
> > "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> > infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> >
> > ___
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?

On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
> Tigro wrote:
> 
>> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> 
> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it would 
> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary distribution. 
> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must retain said 
> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread VR Hacks
Tigro wrote:

> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?

Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it would 
still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary distribution. 
And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must retain said 
GPL with the souce code distribution.

Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?

On 15/4/2010 16:38, VR Hacks wrote:
> Imo, some people fail to see the TPVp for what it is. To wit:
> 
> A) Any and all developers who develop a client for connecting to the second 
> life grid must adhere to a basic set of rules. To reiterate, the TPV policy 
> does not just apply to devs extending the lab's code base. To wit:
> 
> "This Policy governs access to Second Life and our technical platform that 
> supports Second Life by any Third-Party Viewer, by which we mean any 
> third-party software client, regardless of its source code, that logs into 
> our servers. This includes software for viewing Second Life, any chat 
> clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not 
> be listed in our Viewer Directory." (http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php 
> , paragraph two)
> 
> In other words, should I decide to write a "from scratch" viewer to access 
> the grid, then I must code my viewer such that it adheres to their TPV 
> policy.
> 
> B) Any developer who develops and/or distributes their viewer is 
> "responsible" (please note the operative word, responsible) for whatever 
> code they've implemented. In other words, it is up to them to a) debug their 
> own code, b) write their own EULA, and c) define & implement a user support 
> model. Should they choose to do none of the above, that is their choice, as 
> well.
> 
> Otherwise put, responsible and smart coders will *always* include a EULA 
> with their binary distribution (regardless of whether or not it was designed 
> to connect to the grid). Why? Because it sets end user expectation. It 
> ensures you, as devs, will not end up in a infinite "support for free" loop, 
> and importantly, it provides legal protection should your code have a bug 
> that you did not catch.
> 
> As for the GPL argument. That is moot. Or rather, as Joe so noted, "The TPV 
> is orthogonal to the GPL."
> 
> That being said and all things considered, imo, the lab has been quite 
> magnanimous when it comes to third party viewer devs. After all, they are 
> not required to provide "free advertising" via TPV directory that is 
> designed to set a bar for inclusion, which in turn reduces the chance that 
> the neils of this world will be able to include their viewer, while at the 
> same time, increases consumer confidence in the viewers listed in that 
> directory. Nor is the lab required to "pardon" people who had been 
> previously banned such that same said may participate in the viewer 
> directory program.
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> ___
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> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread VR Hacks
Imo, some people fail to see the TPVp for what it is. To wit:

A) Any and all developers who develop a client for connecting to the second 
life grid must adhere to a basic set of rules. To reiterate, the TPV policy 
does not just apply to devs extending the lab's code base. To wit:

"This Policy governs access to Second Life and our technical platform that 
supports Second Life by any Third-Party Viewer, by which we mean any 
third-party software client, regardless of its source code, that logs into 
our servers. This includes software for viewing Second Life, any chat 
clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not 
be listed in our Viewer Directory." (http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php 
, paragraph two)

In other words, should I decide to write a "from scratch" viewer to access 
the grid, then I must code my viewer such that it adheres to their TPV 
policy.

B) Any developer who develops and/or distributes their viewer is 
"responsible" (please note the operative word, responsible) for whatever 
code they've implemented. In other words, it is up to them to a) debug their 
own code, b) write their own EULA, and c) define & implement a user support 
model. Should they choose to do none of the above, that is their choice, as 
well.

Otherwise put, responsible and smart coders will *always* include a EULA 
with their binary distribution (regardless of whether or not it was designed 
to connect to the grid). Why? Because it sets end user expectation. It 
ensures you, as devs, will not end up in a infinite "support for free" loop, 
and importantly, it provides legal protection should your code have a bug 
that you did not catch.

As for the GPL argument. That is moot. Or rather, as Joe so noted, "The TPV 
is orthogonal to the GPL."

That being said and all things considered, imo, the lab has been quite 
magnanimous when it comes to third party viewer devs. After all, they are 
not required to provide "free advertising" via TPV directory that is 
designed to set a bar for inclusion, which in turn reduces the chance that 
the neils of this world will be able to include their viewer, while at the 
same time, increases consumer confidence in the viewers listed in that 
directory. Nor is the lab required to "pardon" people who had been 
previously banned such that same said may participate in the viewer 
directory program.

Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Discrete Dreamscape
"Many coders would likely accept liability when being paid well, or possibly
at all. But in the case of open source code created as a hobby, the GPL idea
of no warranty has so far been successful in the community because code can
be inspected by its users, and because the users can verify, alter, and fix
any problems in it on their own, so they shouldn't claim fault on the
developer when it was their own choice to use the code. However, in LL's
case, they don't even get to choose whether they use your code. Anyone can
basically force it upon their service to feel the effects of using arbitrary
viewer code. Thus, since there is no choice, ultimately some liability is
inherent."

Basically, consent does agree on both sides. LL is forced into the situation
by the nature of their service, and starting April 30th, developers consent
as well, if they wish to use the service.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote:

> The problem with that is a contract requires assent on both sides
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Discrete Dreamscape
>  wrote:
> > It's possible to willingly agree to liability and wave whatever
> protections
> > you wish that are normally under the GPL, which seems to be what the TPV
> > asks you to do. The issue most people seem to have is that it's not
> explicit
> > in this regard and it also doesn't make it clear that it is a contract
> > between you and LL.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Tigro Spottystripes
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> from what i understand, according to GPL, developers and distributers of
> >> GPL'd stuff are _*NOT*_ liable for any GPL code they create, modify or
> >> distribute
> >>
> >> On 15/4/2010 12:28, Robert Martin wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Gareth Nelson
> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> A quick note on that - this is not the whole meeting, some of the
> >> >> start was missing
> >> >>
> >> > suggestion for the next meeting MAKE IT TEXT CHAT ONLY.
> >> > how much of the meeting was lost to overhead related to voice links
> >> > getting garbled or relaying info being given in voice or a client
> >> > crashing or ...
> >> >
> >> > anyway i think that the core problem of the current TPVp is not
> >> > limiting the liability of a developer to 1 code he changed 2 fixing
> >> > bugs in said code so
> >> >
> >> > LL is only liable for Linden Core Code*
> >> > a TPV is only liable for code changed from LLC**
> >> > a user is liable for actions on the grid (and whatever changes done to
> >> > either LLC or TP code)
> >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> >> Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
> >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> >>
> >> iEYEARECAAYFAkvHM9UACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmUi3gCdF9rXeLoWwsxEF1bwaXjSeqmV
> >> jWsAn3i1Dpa0KjNrokHYukjq4YONoGcm
> >> =t1M5
> >> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >> ___
> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
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> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> >> privileges
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>
>
> --
> “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for
> everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” -
> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Gareth Nelson
The problem with that is a contract requires assent on both sides

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Discrete Dreamscape
 wrote:
> It's possible to willingly agree to liability and wave whatever protections
> you wish that are normally under the GPL, which seems to be what the TPV
> asks you to do. The issue most people seem to have is that it's not explicit
> in this regard and it also doesn't make it clear that it is a contract
> between you and LL.
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Tigro Spottystripes
>  wrote:
>>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> from what i understand, according to GPL, developers and distributers of
>> GPL'd stuff are _*NOT*_ liable for any GPL code they create, modify or
>> distribute
>>
>> On 15/4/2010 12:28, Robert Martin wrote:
>> > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Gareth Nelson
>> >  wrote:
>> >> A quick note on that - this is not the whole meeting, some of the
>> >> start was missing
>> >>
>> > suggestion for the next meeting MAKE IT TEXT CHAT ONLY.
>> > how much of the meeting was lost to overhead related to voice links
>> > getting garbled or relaying info being given in voice or a client
>> > crashing or ...
>> >
>> > anyway i think that the core problem of the current TPVp is not
>> > limiting the liability of a developer to 1 code he changed 2 fixing
>> > bugs in said code so
>> >
>> > LL is only liable for Linden Core Code*
>> > a TPV is only liable for code changed from LLC**
>> > a user is liable for actions on the grid (and whatever changes done to
>> > either LLC or TP code)
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAkvHM9UACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmUi3gCdF9rXeLoWwsxEF1bwaXjSeqmV
>> jWsAn3i1Dpa0KjNrokHYukjq4YONoGcm
>> =t1M5
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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“Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for
everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” -
Printcrime by Cory Doctrow

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Discrete Dreamscape
It's possible to willingly agree to liability and wave whatever protections
you wish that are normally under the GPL, which seems to be what the TPV
asks you to do. The issue most people seem to have is that it's not explicit
in this regard and it also doesn't make it clear that it is a contract
between you and LL.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Tigro Spottystripes <
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> from what i understand, according to GPL, developers and distributers of
> GPL'd stuff are _*NOT*_ liable for any GPL code they create, modify or
> distribute
>
> On 15/4/2010 12:28, Robert Martin wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Gareth Nelson 
> wrote:
> >> A quick note on that - this is not the whole meeting, some of the
> >> start was missing
> >>
> > suggestion for the next meeting MAKE IT TEXT CHAT ONLY.
> > how much of the meeting was lost to overhead related to voice links
> > getting garbled or relaying info being given in voice or a client
> > crashing or ...
> >
> > anyway i think that the core problem of the current TPVp is not
> > limiting the liability of a developer to 1 code he changed 2 fixing
> > bugs in said code so
> >
> > LL is only liable for Linden Core Code*
> > a TPV is only liable for code changed from LLC**
> > a user is liable for actions on the grid (and whatever changes done to
> > either LLC or TP code)
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkvHM9UACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmUi3gCdF9rXeLoWwsxEF1bwaXjSeqmV
> jWsAn3i1Dpa0KjNrokHYukjq4YONoGcm
> =t1M5
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

from what i understand, according to GPL, developers and distributers of
GPL'd stuff are _*NOT*_ liable for any GPL code they create, modify or
distribute

On 15/4/2010 12:28, Robert Martin wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Gareth Nelson  
> wrote:
>> A quick note on that - this is not the whole meeting, some of the
>> start was missing
>>
> suggestion for the next meeting MAKE IT TEXT CHAT ONLY.
> how much of the meeting was lost to overhead related to voice links
> getting garbled or relaying info being given in voice or a client
> crashing or ...
> 
> anyway i think that the core problem of the current TPVp is not
> limiting the liability of a developer to 1 code he changed 2 fixing
> bugs in said code so
> 
> LL is only liable for Linden Core Code*
> a TPV is only liable for code changed from LLC**
> a user is liable for actions on the grid (and whatever changes done to
> either LLC or TP code)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkvHM9UACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmUi3gCdF9rXeLoWwsxEF1bwaXjSeqmV
jWsAn3i1Dpa0KjNrokHYukjq4YONoGcm
=t1M5
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Robert Martin
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Gareth Nelson  wrote:
> A quick note on that - this is not the whole meeting, some of the
> start was missing
>
suggestion for the next meeting MAKE IT TEXT CHAT ONLY.
how much of the meeting was lost to overhead related to voice links
getting garbled or relaying info being given in voice or a client
crashing or ...

anyway i think that the core problem of the current TPVp is not
limiting the liability of a developer to 1 code he changed 2 fixing
bugs in said code so

LL is only liable for Linden Core Code*
a TPV is only liable for code changed from LLC**
a user is liable for actions on the grid (and whatever changes done to
either LLC or TP code)
-- 
Robert L Martin
* said liability is limited to fixing code and cost of replacement of
damaged "goods" in the case of inventory loss or damage to a region
** said liability is limited to fixing code unless the code can be
shown to be deliberately unfit for purpose or otherwise illegal
according to local state or federal law (local to include the LL TOS
as currently amended).
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Gareth Nelson
A quick note on that - this is not the whole meeting, some of the
start was missing

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:08 AM, VR Hacks  wrote:
> Michael wrote in part:
>
>> Is a transcript of this posted anywhere for those of us who could not
>> attend?
>
> I see someone has already posted a link to the full chat text transcript on
> the wiki.
>
> Gareth Nelson was kind enough to provide the voice recording of the meeting,
> which can be found here:
>
> http://bit.ly/TPVPbrownBag1
>
> You can also access it via our vrhacks channel on iTunes. Hth!
>
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
>
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Lance Corrimal
Am Mittwoch, 14. April 2010 20:49:59 schrieb Joe Linden:

> **we've had a lot of internal debate around cost/benefit of OS **... and
> we're fully committed to redoubling our commitment to make this a
> successful program*." 


then... how about... opensourcing the SERVER (like someone pretty high up 
suggested several years ago)?


and there's no reason to be afraid that giving away the other half of the 
software would cause you longtime harm anyways...

...after all, the grid is more than server & client. the grid also is all 
those boxes that it is running on... no way that a competitior could pull 
1 PCs out of a hat on short notice.

on the other hand, I would like to bet actual money on the following 
predictions:

- 48 hours after the server code is out in the open, the 25 groups limit has 
been lifted, AND the whole IM/group chat subsystem has been migrated to XMPP 
(including voice via XMPP); another day and there's the possibility to connect 
to jabber.sl.net with any xmpp client, AND talk to friends at any jabber 
service.

- 72 hours after the server code is out in the open, SVC-472 is fixed

- a few weeks later, all communications between client and server, and the 
various server subsystems, has been ported to tcp/ssl and is transaction safe.

imagine the possibilities.


bye,
LC
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Tigro Spottystripes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

some TPVs might be released under licenses that do assign
responsibilities, legal liabilities etc to developers and/or
distributers, the TPVP shouldn't attempt to override any license applied
to any TPV

On 15/4/2010 09:13, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
> I thought it would make more sense (I still have hope) to say this now,
> and not wait till 30 April.
> 
> Also I have decided that Linden Lab does not deserve the 40 hours
> per week that I spend volunteering on the snowglobe sources.
> Lately I have done less because my motivation was gone due to
> the policy, and there has been a long break because I suffer from
> something like carpel tunnel, but over all I DO spend that amount
> of time on a project that I am devoted to.
> 
> If the TPV policy is not going to address FULLY that any open source
> developers remain completely free of liability as stated in the GPL
> license
> 
> [to recap:
> 
> [...] THE ENTIRE RISK AS
> TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU [the user].
> SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL
> NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.
> 
> [...] IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW [...]
> WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR
> REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES,
> INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING
> OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
> TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
> YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER
> PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
> 
> ]
> 
> Because of the parts in the [...] it may or may not be POSSIBLE to make
> developers
> liable through the TPV policy, I don't care. I don't want to run the
> risk that the TPV
> makes me liable, so it should not contain any words that could be
> interpreted
> as such.
> 
> I am sorry to say that I doubt that this will come to a resolution,
> because Joe already
> has said that he can only take SMALL changes and is not looking for a
> rewrite. He also
> said that he can only take it to the lawyers, but he has no power to
> actually enforce
> anything, it is not up to him.
> 
> I will probably start maintaining another TPV specifically for some
> opengrid grid.
> 
> The REASON I wanted to work on Snowglobe is because I believe that all open
> source projects are equal. We are not competitors (some devs of certain
> TPV(s)
> might take that to heart). I wanted to work there where my bug fixes and
> improvements would benefit all. But exactly for that reason I cannot standby
> when other open source projects that derive from Snowglobe are bullied into
> termination of their project and/or are forced to give up the freedom to
> make
> their own decisions, the only benefit of being an OS dev.
> 
> Sad,
> Aleric Inglewood
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM, Joe Linden  > wrote:
> 
> For those watching without the benefit of a transcript or the actual
> words I said in the meeting yesterday, here was the rest of that
> quote:  "/ //we've had a lot of internal debate around cost/benefit
> of OS //... and we're fully committed to redoubling our commitment
> to make this a successful program/."  Was it infuriating that we
> have internal debates from time to time on how we staff our
> projects, or infuriating because we are redoubling our efforts in
> many ways to make this a more successful and meaningful project for
> the OS community than it has been in the past?  I was actually
> making a comment that we've not done this very well to date (in
> fact, we've sucked at it), and we're committed to many changes to
> improve the situation.
> 
> Either way, we're sorry to see you go.
> 
> -- joe
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Rob Nelson
> mailto:nexisentertainm...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> 
> And yet, it does restrict GPL distribution rights.  We've been
> over this
> already.  And I'd like to see where the FSF OKed it, the only
> thing I
> can turn up on Google is Richard Stallman not being too happy
> about it.
> 
> I already changed the viewer I used to be working on to Luna,
> but both
> the GPL incompatabilities and this rather infuriating "cost/benefit"
> comment by Joe have resulted in me deciding that LL does not
> deserve any
> further OSS development work from me.
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 14:11 -0400, Ron Festa wrote:
> > Honestly I tried looking through my inbox to find out what your
> > concerns were and why no one else addressed them so forgive me
> if I
> > couldn't find them. The only problems I saw you h

Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

2010-04-15 Thread Aleric Inglewood
I thought it would make more sense (I still have hope) to say this now,
and not wait till 30 April.

Also I have decided that Linden Lab does not deserve the 40 hours
per week that I spend volunteering on the snowglobe sources.
Lately I have done less because my motivation was gone due to
the policy, and there has been a long break because I suffer from
something like carpel tunnel, but over all I DO spend that amount
of time on a project that I am devoted to.

If the TPV policy is not going to address FULLY that any open source
developers remain completely free of liability as stated in the GPL
license

[to recap:

[...] THE ENTIRE RISK AS
TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU [the user].
SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL
NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

[...] IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW [...]
WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR
REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES,
INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING
OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER
PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

]

Because of the parts in the [...] it may or may not be POSSIBLE to make
developers
liable through the TPV policy, I don't care. I don't want to run the risk
that the TPV
makes me liable, so it should not contain any words that could be
interpreted
as such.

I am sorry to say that I doubt that this will come to a resolution, because
Joe already
has said that he can only take SMALL changes and is not looking for a
rewrite. He also
said that he can only take it to the lawyers, but he has no power to
actually enforce
anything, it is not up to him.

I will probably start maintaining another TPV specifically for some opengrid
grid.

The REASON I wanted to work on Snowglobe is because I believe that all open
source projects are equal. We are not competitors (some devs of certain
TPV(s)
might take that to heart). I wanted to work there where my bug fixes and
improvements would benefit all. But exactly for that reason I cannot standby
when other open source projects that derive from Snowglobe are bullied into
termination of their project and/or are forced to give up the freedom to
make
their own decisions, the only benefit of being an OS dev.

Sad,
Aleric Inglewood


On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM, Joe Linden  wrote:

> For those watching without the benefit of a transcript or the actual words
> I said in the meeting yesterday, here was the rest of that quote:  "* **we've
> had a lot of internal debate around cost/benefit of OS **... and we're
> fully committed to redoubling our commitment to make this a successful
> program*."  Was it infuriating that we have internal debates from time to
> time on how we staff our projects, or infuriating because we are redoubling
> our efforts in many ways to make this a more successful and meaningful
> project for the OS community than it has been in the past?  I was actually
> making a comment that we've not done this very well to date (in fact, we've
> sucked at it), and we're committed to many changes to improve the situation.
>
> Either way, we're sorry to see you go.
>
> -- joe
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Rob Nelson  > wrote:
>
>> And yet, it does restrict GPL distribution rights.  We've been over this
>> already.  And I'd like to see where the FSF OKed it, the only thing I
>> can turn up on Google is Richard Stallman not being too happy about it.
>>
>> I already changed the viewer I used to be working on to Luna, but both
>> the GPL incompatabilities and this rather infuriating "cost/benefit"
>> comment by Joe have resulted in me deciding that LL does not deserve any
>> further OSS development work from me.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 14:11 -0400, Ron Festa wrote:
>> > Honestly I tried looking through my inbox to find out what your
>> > concerns were and why no one else addressed them so forgive me if I
>> > couldn't find them. The only problems I saw you had was compatibility
>> > with the GPLv2 and the use of "Life" in your viewer name.
>> >
>> >
>> > The issues with Section 7 were in fact addressed and took up most of
>> > the meeting. Someone claimed they went as far as bringing the TPVP
>> > before the FSF to verify if its GPLv2 compliant and sadly according to
>> > them it is as its restricting a service not the code. Never the less
>> > concerns were brought up and productive changes were suggested.
>> >
>> >
>> > As for the branding this should be no argument. If in a court of law
>> > they can make Lindows change their name to Linspire because Microsoft
>> > owns *indows then LL can do the same with all the TPV's as stupid as
>> > that is.
>> >
>>