Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request
On 2010-10-02, at 20:47, Kelly Linden wrote: On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Argent Stonecutter secret.arg...@gmail.com wrote: Could this be applied to LSL scripts as well, since they could be made potentially MUCH smaller? A kilobyte might be enough for a poseball, for example, and even less for a titler or particle script. Unfortunately no. LSL scripts take up 16k of memory no matter how much they actually use. I know they do. That's why I was asking if that could be changed. Have a script size box in the script editor, when you compile you can select 1k, 2k, 4k... up to 16k. That could potentially save a lot of memory... megabytes for locations with lots of scripted furniture. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] CAN WE PLEASE STOP VIEWER DEVELOPMENT FOR 5 MINUTES
Welcome to open source viewer, closed source server. On Sun, Oct 03, 2010 at 10:27:52AM -0400, malachi wrote: could we please take 5 minutes away from the client that we all obviously have our second thoughts about to begin with. and focus on grid infrastructure. i honestly dont care if i am forced to use the dreaded 2.x client. if the grid actually responded to something you did. things like just loading my clothing. or if i save a script it should still exist after i close the edit box. but the fact that any script added to a prim inworld gets eaten and destroyed server side is a huge issue. could LL drop the client work for 5 minutes and see what is going on on the server? or is that too much to ask? because as it seems over the last few weeks its been new client code new client code new client code while the server just gradually falls off a cliff. what good is a client that runs like fiber when the server it connects to only speaks in dialup? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Carlo Wood ca...@alinoe.com ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] CAN WE PLEASE STOP VIEWER DEVELOPMENT FOR 5 MINUTES
On 2010-10-03 10:27, malachi wrote: could we please take 5 minutes away from the client that we all obviously have our second thoughts about to begin with. and focus on grid infrastructure. i honestly dont care if i am forced to use the dreaded 2.x client. if the grid actually responded to something you did. things like just loading my clothing. or if i save a script it should still exist after i close the edit box. but the fact that any script added to a prim inworld gets eaten and destroyed server side is a huge issue. could LL drop the client work for 5 minutes and see what is going on on the server? or is that too much to ask? because as it seems over the last few weeks its been new client code new client code new client code while the server just gradually falls off a cliff. what good is a client that runs like fiber when the server it connects to only speaks in dialup? The subject of this list is the open source, which does not include the server side. Discussions of interactions with the server are of course in scope. There is little conflict in the people involved with server side and viewer side development, so stopping viewer development would do little to change server problem resolution even if that is where the problem is. It sounds as though you are experiencing some serious problems, but the descriptions above are not nearly complete enough for anyone to determine what the real problems are, much less determine who could best solve them. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] CAN WE PLEASE STOP VIEWER DEVELOPMENT FOR 5 MINUTES
On 10/3/2010 8:38 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: On 2010-10-03 10:27, malachi wrote: could we please take 5 minutes away from the client that we all obviously have our second thoughts about to begin with. and focus on grid infrastructure. i honestly dont care if i am forced to use the dreaded 2.x client. if the grid actually responded to something you did. things like just loading my clothing. or if i save a script it should still exist after i close the edit box. but the fact that any script added to a prim inworld gets eaten and destroyed server side is a huge issue. could LL drop the client work for 5 minutes and see what is going on on the server? or is that too much to ask? because as it seems over the last few weeks its been new client code new client code new client code while the server just gradually falls off a cliff. what good is a client that runs like fiber when the server it connects to only speaks in dialup? The subject of this list is the open source, which does not include the server side. Discussions of interactions with the server are of course in scope. There is little conflict in the people involved with server side and viewer side development, so stopping viewer development would do little to change server problem resolution even if that is where the problem is. It sounds as though you are experiencing some serious problems, but the descriptions above are not nearly complete enough for anyone to determine what the real problems are, much less determine who could best solve them. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges I agree with OZ here. The issue could be client side or server side, but as Oz stated we don't have enough information. I think Malachi needs to describe the steps he's using to reproduce the issue (even if it's not consistently occurring) for each of the problems he's seeing so people can reproduce and add it to an existing JIRA or open a new one if one doesn't already exist for the specific problem. - Obsidian Stormwind ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Question about LOD debug setting
I picked up a notecard that says to increase RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4. Is this reasonable, do you think? And if so, why not increase the default a bit (currently seems to be 1.125 lee ==notecard says=== well, its until they fix this lod problem, its just a workaround. Debugging your LOD settings is something that can and will make all your sculpts hold the intended detail better. Follow these easy steps: 1. Show the Advanced menu with Ctrl-Alt-D, or Opt-Ctrl-D on a Mac. 2. Select debug settings near the bottom. 3. In the blank space, copy and paste the word: RenderVolumeLODFactor 4. In the box below, set the number. The recommended setting is as high as 4 to have all your sculpts looking as the creator intended. Unlike increasing your draw distance, this will NOT create lag for yourself or those around you! And it will improve the look of all sculpts. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Question about LOD debug setting
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Ponzu lee.po...@gmail.com wrote: I picked up a notecard that says to increase RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4. Is this reasonable, do you think? And if so, why not increase the default a bit (currently seems to be 1.125 It is reasonable, the default setting is a bit low. It varies with your graphics settings tho, 0 for low, 1.125 for mid high, and 2 for ultra IIRC. I find 3 a good compromise between quality and performance. Unlike increasing your draw distance, this will NOT create lag for yourself This however, is blatantly false. If rendering everything at full detail all the time didn't cause a drop in frame rate than why would we even bother with LOD? ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Question about LOD debug setting
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 2:54 PM, leliel leliel.mir...@gmail.com wrote: Unlike increasing your draw distance, this will NOT create lag for yourself This however, is blatantly false. If rendering everything at full detail all the time didn't cause a drop in frame rate than why would we even bother with LOD? Understood. She was only talking about sculpties, however. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] CAN WE PLEASE STOP VIEWER DEVELOPMENT FOR 5 MINUTES
I agree with Oz on this as well. There are different folks working on the client and server sides. Throwing the client folks over to fix server side problems runs the risk of actually slowing things down. The huge, looming issue on the client side is simply this: evolution. Where could the 2.x viewer be, 2 years from now? Where could a 3.x viewer, with a plugin architecture, be in 2 years? Where could a Unity-based viewer be in 2 years? Without a good plugin architecture, this viewer is going to keep growing. It will become even more of a monolithic piece of code that wont run well on lower end machines. With a good plugin architecture, there is the opportunity for a solid core + customization. Chrome and Firefox come to mind as examples on the web side. Having said all that though, think about this: It is a Sunday. Go look at what Unity 3.x (you can download it for free) is capable of. Can any 2.x codebase get to that level of quality in the next 2 years? I dont think so. Consider what it would take to have a Unity foundation, layered with the SL-specific experience on top. Then think about it the other way (trying to get the existing standard of 2.x to that level of quality, and on all of those platforms). My thought would be: get mesh out there on 2.x viewer, and then put on the brakes and consider direction. Daniel - daniel.org/blog ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request
Am Samstag 02 Oktober 2010 16:49:48 schrieb Lance Corrimal: phoenix already does that, in its radar you can define a warning that tells you when the script count in the sim changes by more than a threshold that you define... so there already _is_ a way to count all scripts in a sim. Counting scripts on the sim is part of the sim stats (ctrl shift 1), we're talking about per object or per avatar. Zi ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request
Am Sonntag 03 Oktober 2010 schrieb Zi Ree: Am Samstag 02 Oktober 2010 16:49:48 schrieb Lance Corrimal: phoenix already does that, in its radar you can define a warning that tells you when the script count in the sim changes by more than a threshold that you define... so there already _is_ a way to count all scripts in a sim. Counting scripts on the sim is part of the sim stats (ctrl shift 1), we're talking about per object or per avatar. Ah... didn't see that part. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] another script fighting question
No one in concierge seems to know this, so I thought I would ask the viewer specialists here. When you first call for top scripts in region tools what is the order it is returning initially. I know it's not random because some avatars come up in the same spots everytime. I know its not time, because some avies and objects are higher than others. Could it possibly be calls on the server?? or is it something as simple as UUID order. I NEED A CLASS 7! Combating the lag every hour on the hour. TY Miss ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request !!!!!!!
This is why we need it [12:52] Counted scripts from 19 attachments on Sxt Cxxx: 1102 ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers (was: CAN WE PLEASE STOP VIEWER DEVELOPMENT FOR 5 MINUTES)
On 10/03/2010 08:57 PM, Daniel Smith wrote: Consider what it would take to have a Unity foundation, layered with the SL-specific experience on top. What it would take? At least Linux support for Unity. While the percentage of Linux users among SL users might still be small enough to be regarded negligible by some people, the percentage of Linux users amongst the open source developer community around Linden Lab's current official viewer is certainly significant. Of course, one might assume a Unity based Viewer project would attract enough new developers that one wouldn't have to rely on as many from the current developer community as possible, but somehow I don't think that'd be the case. Then, I'd image Linden Lab would probably want to use Unity Pro for development while most community developers would stick to the free (as in beer) Unity license. Can developers with the free license even collaborate in projects otherwise developed with the Pro one? Or would this turn this new viewer into a pure in-house project, even if the new viewer was open source, too? (Well, as open source as it can be with the engine being proprietary.) Boroondas ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers (was: CAN WE PLEASE STOP VIEWER DEVELOPMENT FOR 5 MINUTES)
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Boroondas Gupte slli...@boroon.dasgupta.chwrote: On 10/03/2010 08:57 PM, Daniel Smith wrote: Consider what it would take to have a Unity foundation, layered with the SL-specific experience on top. What it would take? At least Linux support for Unity. Yep, that came up as a point on my blog, and I answered: Now, let’s look at the deployment platforms in Unity 3.0http://unity3d.com/unity/publishing/, which just came out on Monday — all of these will be available soon: Mac, Windows, Web, iPhone, Android, Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 I think that’s amazing. Don’t you? Yes, it sucks a little that Linux isn’t in there. … But… if there is that potential to get a better experience for 95% of the current users, and to open up a bunch of new platforms to them and new users, then my gut says that is the right way to go. Also.. I would think that the current Linux viewer could maintain compatibility. -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request !!!!!!!
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:59 PM, miss c miss_c...@yahoo.com wrote: This is why we need it [12:52] Counted scripts from 19 attachments on Sxt Cxxx: 1102 I suggest a different approach. Enable health/damage in your sim, and then *kill* them. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers (was: CAN WE PLEASE STOP VIEWER DEVELOPMENT FOR 5 MINUTES)
More than whether 2.x can technically get Unity features in two years, a question would be how to teach or incentivize creators to use those features without creating a laggy Tragedy of the Commons situation on the machines the viewers are running on. If you consider how much work and discussion is needed to develop metrics and limits (for example, in that script metrics thread), two years (or more!) might be taken up in just planning and testing those rules. The social considerations need to be thought about just as carefully as (if not more than) technical ones. (Also, adding additional platforms won't be free either - they each need extra work for their different quirks, user interfaces, and strengths and weaknesses. Trying to use a Windows PC viewer on the Wii or Android would be a train wreck. It's not like C# scripting was suddenly free after getting mono.) Celi On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Daniel Smith javajo...@gmail.com wrote: Where could a Unity-based viewer be in 2 years? ... Consider what it would take to have a Unity foundation, layered with the SL-specific experience on top. Then think about it the other way (trying to get the existing standard of 2.x to that level of quality, and on all of those platforms). ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
No Linux support is a total deal-breaker for me. I really don't care how many platforms are supported, and that includes gaming consoles, if mine isn't. Gaming consoles are irrelevant, as SL is not a game and would not sell at Best Buy even if it were, making that support a completely moot point. I don't pay for the privilege of using an operating system on my hardware. Just because someone else does does not mean I (and the rest of the Linux users in SL, including a pretty good percentage of Lindens) should be shut out. If a commercial piece of software does not support the entire user base and is not GPL or LGPL, then it should be off the table completely. If you really want to do something like this, look to Ogre instead. --GC On Sun, 2010-10-03 at 13:44 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Boroondas Gupte slli...@boroon.dasgupta.ch wrote: On 10/03/2010 08:57 PM, Daniel Smith wrote: Consider what it would take to have a Unity foundation, layered with the SL-specific experience on top. What it would take? At least Linux support for Unity. Yep, that came up as a point on my blog, and I answered: Now, let’s look at the deployment platforms in Unity 3.0, which just came out on Monday — all of these will be available soon: Mac, Windows, Web, iPhone, Android, Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 I think that’s amazing. Don’t you? Yes, it sucks a little that Linux isn’t in there. … But… if there is that potential to get a better experience for 95% of the current users, and to open up a bunch of new platforms to them and new users, then my gut says that is the right way to go. Also.. I would think that the current Linux viewer could maintain compatibility. -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Glen Canaday gcana...@gmail.com wrote: No Linux support is a total deal-breaker for me. I never said anything about the Linux viewer going away. I note that we have Pocket Metaverse now, and have had AjaxLife in the past. If it helps at all, I started with BSD Unix in 1981, Linux in 1994 ;) As is the case with web browsers, a VR client to the same server could take many forms. Ultimately, it's about what the community wants, and if a critical mass of developers decides to give them that. It doesn't have to be an official Linden effort at all. All I am saying is, in 2 years time, I cant see the current codebases even getting to the point where Unity 3.0 is today, in terms of graphics, physics, animation, terrain, and sound. But, I could see a pretty decent SL app done in Unity within that amount of time. And, of course, I am just an interested observer. I dont speak for LL, Vivaty, AOL, Autodesk, or anywhere else I have worked :) Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
On Sun, 2010-10-03 at 15:09 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Glen Canaday gcana...@gmail.com wrote: No Linux support is a total deal-breaker for me. I never said anything about the Linux viewer going away. I note that we have Pocket Metaverse now, and have had AjaxLife in the past. If it helps at all, I started with BSD Unix in 1981, Linux in 1994 ;) As is the case with web browsers, a VR client to the same server could take many forms. Ultimately, it's about what the community wants, and if a critical mass of developers decides to give them that. It doesn't have to be an official Linden effort at all. All I am saying is, in 2 years time, I cant see the current codebases even getting to the point where Unity 3.0 is today, in terms of graphics, physics, animation, terrain, and sound. But, I could see a pretty decent SL app done in Unity within that amount of time. And, of course, I am just an interested observer. I dont speak for LL, Vivaty, AOL, Autodesk, or anywhere else I have worked :) Daniel It's hard to see exactly where the rendering engine will go, really, in 2 years. For a plugin-based client, as some (including myself) are rather nudging towards, the renderer is just a part of the whole and could in theory be hot-swapped if desired to A/B different engines. Even if those renderers swapped between opengl and directx, it could still fly. But to suggest that the main client perhaps go to something that does not work across the board doesn't really include the whole of the population - something which LL would be keen to retain. That's why I suggested Ogre instead. I personally think it would be a better fit and more productive to look at. Others may have different opinions. --GC -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
Run Unity in a VM. Works for me. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Glen Canaday gcana...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 2010-10-03 at 15:09 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Glen Canaday gcana...@gmail.com wrote: No Linux support is a total deal-breaker for me. I never said anything about the Linux viewer going away. I note that we have Pocket Metaverse now, and have had AjaxLife in the past. If it helps at all, I started with BSD Unix in 1981, Linux in 1994 ;) As is the case with web browsers, a VR client to the same server could take many forms. Ultimately, it's about what the community wants, and if a critical mass of developers decides to give them that. It doesn't have to be an official Linden effort at all. All I am saying is, in 2 years time, I cant see the current codebases even getting to the point where Unity 3.0 is today, in terms of graphics, physics, animation, terrain, and sound. But, I could see a pretty decent SL app done in Unity within that amount of time. And, of course, I am just an interested observer. I dont speak for LL, Vivaty, AOL, Autodesk, or anywhere else I have worked :) Daniel It's hard to see exactly where the rendering engine will go, really, in 2 years. For a plugin-based client, as some (including myself) are rather nudging towards, the renderer is just a part of the whole and could in theory be hot-swapped if desired to A/B different engines. Even if those renderers swapped between opengl and directx, it could still fly. But to suggest that the main client perhaps go to something that does not work across the board doesn't really include the whole of the population - something which LL would be keen to retain. That's why I suggested Ogre instead. I personally think it would be a better fit and more productive to look at. Others may have different opinions. --GC -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- William Reed Seal Foss (Reed Steamroller) Chief Creative Officer Sand Castle Studios LLC | Second Life http://www.ChangingWorldsBuildingDreams.com r...@changingworldsbuildingdreams.com http://www.Twitter.com/ReedSteamroller ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
On 2010-10-03, at 17:39, Reed Steamroller wrote: Run Unity in a VM. Works for me. Run a 3d graphical application in a VM? [insert picture of the Biting Pear of Salamanca here] ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:03:40 -0500 Argent Stonecutter secret.arg...@gmail.com wrote: On 2010-10-03, at 17:39, Reed Steamroller wrote: Run Unity in a VM. Works for me. Run a 3d graphical application in a VM? Xen have a nice and working abstraction layer (tryed on nvidia) and allow guest OS to use full 3D hardware from guest to host this don't mean performance are like use from native os... ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Question about LOD debug setting
On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:37:49 -0400, Ponzu wrote: I picked up a notecard that says to increase RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4. Is this reasonable, do you think? And if so, why not increase the default a bit (currently seems to be 1.125 4 is OK for viewer v1.23.5. For Snowglobe (v1 and v2) and viewer 2, you should not use more than 3, because when using larger values, you will get graphic glitches with very small prims, especially with attachments: zooming out, they will vanish (as expected), but zooming back in, they will stay hidden 4 times out of 5 (zooming fast out and back in may get the small primes to appear again)... Henri. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
On Sun, 2010-10-03 at 18:15 -0400, Glen Canaday wrote: That's why I suggested Ogre instead. I personally think it would be a better fit and more productive to look at. Others may have different opinions. Well, I run Linux and agree that being shut out after years of being supported would be suboptimal for me. Running in a VM is an exercise that only a masochist can love compared to an application natively supported. Plus, a VM position forces people to purchase additional OSes just to support one (or a handful) of apps, which add massive overheard in additional administration. At-home-VM is a temporary workaround, not a platform strategy. Remember - SL is supposed to be Fast, Easy, Fun... not an enterprise-level support nightmare just to boot and run in the first place. Unity3D seems like a lot of lose to me: for the same amount of effort to switch to that, re-base on something else that keeps the same supported set of platforms or extends it without dropping already supported platforms. OGRE may be a great suggestion, especially in light of the RealXtend folks having already broken a LOT of the ground of an SL client that uses OGRE rendering. Why re-reinvent their wheel? Maybe talk to them about Naali and see what goes from there? -- Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey Promise her anything, but give her Exxon unleaded. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
Unity is the biggest POS i have ever used Not well designed. IMHO. Its like trying to do SL in javascript. Not literally but you know what i mean. It was never designed for a heavy network transport now multi player / mmo style. A FPS maybe but nothing on a grand scale. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey ex...@weylan-yutani.com wrote: On Sun, 2010-10-03 at 18:15 -0400, Glen Canaday wrote: That's why I suggested Ogre instead. I personally think it would be a better fit and more productive to look at. Others may have different opinions. Well, I run Linux and agree that being shut out after years of being supported would be suboptimal for me. Running in a VM is an exercise that only a masochist can love compared to an application natively supported. Plus, a VM position forces people to purchase additional OSes just to support one (or a handful) of apps, which add massive overheard in additional administration. At-home-VM is a temporary workaround, not a platform strategy. Remember - SL is supposed to be Fast, Easy, Fun... not an enterprise-level support nightmare just to boot and run in the first place. Unity3D seems like a lot of lose to me: for the same amount of effort to switch to that, re-base on something else that keeps the same supported set of platforms or extends it without dropping already supported platforms. OGRE may be a great suggestion, especially in light of the RealXtend folks having already broken a LOT of the ground of an SL client that uses OGRE rendering. Why re-reinvent their wheel? Maybe talk to them about Naali and see what goes from there? -- Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey Promise her anything, but give her Exxon unleaded. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- --- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. --- --- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
Alright, this is the most incorrect post I have ever seen so I would guess you have used Unity for maybe a total of an one hour. First of all you can use any network technology you like. It does come with a very basic P2P network, but you can use many game server that you like included some that support fail over and fault tolerance configurations. In fact there are those using SL's server and rendering prims and sculpties in Unity. The scripting language can also use C# and supports a way more complete set of functions then is available in SL. This list is so long I don't know where to start on functionality it supports that LSL doesn't support. Not sure your point about FPS, it has Ambers Occlusion culling, beast lighting and deferred lighting which lets it create FPS you can't do in SL for the same amount of content. So if you are going to comment on Unity please do your homework and don't mislead people. M. _ From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Husbands Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 8:20 PM To: Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers Unity is the biggest POS i have ever used Not well designed. IMHO. Its like trying to do SL in javascript. Not literally but you know what i mean. It was never designed for a heavy network transport now multi player / mmo style. A FPS maybe but nothing on a grand scale. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey ex...@weylan-yutani.com wrote: On Sun, 2010-10-03 at 18:15 -0400, Glen Canaday wrote: That's why I suggested Ogre instead. I personally think it would be a better fit and more productive to look at. Others may have different opinions. Well, I run Linux and agree that being shut out after years of being supported would be suboptimal for me. Running in a VM is an exercise that only a masochist can love compared to an application natively supported. Plus, a VM position forces people to purchase additional OSes just to support one (or a handful) of apps, which add massive overheard in additional administration. At-home-VM is a temporary workaround, not a platform strategy. Remember - SL is supposed to be Fast, Easy, Fun... not an enterprise-level support nightmare just to boot and run in the first place. Unity3D seems like a lot of lose to me: for the same amount of effort to switch to that, re-base on something else that keeps the same supported set of platforms or extends it without dropping already supported platforms. OGRE may be a great suggestion, especially in light of the RealXtend folks having already broken a LOT of the ground of an SL client that uses OGRE rendering. Why re-reinvent their wheel? Maybe talk to them about Naali and see what goes from there? -- Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey Promise her anything, but give her Exxon unleaded. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- --- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. --- --- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Uses of the Lookat target Crosshairs
Folks, Apologies if this is NOT the place to post this...but I really don't know who else to ask. Yesterday I encountered an avatar who exhibited a very strange behavior. Whenever someone in the club spoke in local chat, a Look At target would attach to them. I understand there is a toggle to have your look at swap to the the most recent to chat, but this look at target was white... which is not a standard cross hair color. The other incredibly odd thing was that the look at target stayed locked once there.. Because I was using the phoenix browser, which puts names on the targets, I could see that there were as many as 30 of these targets active at once. Does anyone know of a way to determine what the white target denotes, how it gets attached to multiple targets at once? When i asked the avatar I got a very rude response... When I carried my concern to the club owner, I got more rudeness and denials.. but it seemed clear that there was some intent behind the crosshairs, as they were removed shortly after I expressed my concerns. D ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Uses of the Lookat target Crosshairs
You are reading too much into these targets. Those are just viewer effects that help your viewer position head and the direction of eyes of the avatar to the desired location. They have no other use. Latif On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 3:37 AM, dz d...@bitzend.net wrote: Folks, Apologies if this is NOT the place to post this...but I really don't know who else to ask. Yesterday I encountered an avatar who exhibited a very strange behavior. Whenever someone in the club spoke in local chat, a Look At target would attach to them. I understand there is a toggle to have your look at swap to the the most recent to chat, but this look at target was white... which is not a standard cross hair color. The other incredibly odd thing was that the look at target stayed locked once there.. Because I was using the phoenix browser, which puts names on the targets, I could see that there were as many as 30 of these targets active at once. Does anyone know of a way to determine what the white target denotes, how it gets attached to multiple targets at once? When i asked the avatar I got a very rude response... When I carried my concern to the club owner, I got more rudeness and denials.. but it seemed clear that there was some intent behind the crosshairs, as they were removed shortly after I expressed my concerns. D ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
Actually its not inaccurate. The tools themselves are clunky.. And i am not taking this as a lsl vs their language. I am talking about the engine itself. From a lower level perspective. Unity is really more of a middleware when it comes to graphics engines. sure you can use any network you want but in a whole as what it offers as a base is not what would be able to be used for something on the scale of sl. Also as a user you would not have those midddle ware tools that you see unless you want the whole thing to be clunky. Its rigging and control system is designed for rapid prototyping and higher level designig. I would put unity as an equivilant to making a mod for a fps with good tools unlike most mod systems. But as a complete engine from a graphics and other standpoints The hero engine blows that away. Actually there are quite a few game engines that surpass unity. And if we take thoes its like compairing writing with QT vs flash. (not quick time... but QT). Flash is great as a packaged thing but its limited. Now unity can me modified and such to some extent but no where whats needed for a SL type of thing. And for the record I am not a fan boi of any engine or system. But i have developed a mmo from the ground up in 2001 to playable alpha 2 on the cusp of beta before the project was shelved due to funding. Having written a majority of the Engine and most of the server code. I would thing these are subjects i am quite capable of assessing. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 7:41 PM, mysticaldem...@xrgrid.com wrote: Alright, this is the most incorrect post I have ever seen so I would guess you have used Unity for maybe a total of an one hour. First of all you can use any network technology you like. It does come with a very basic P2P network, but you can use many game server that you like included some that support fail over and fault tolerance configurations. In fact there are those using SL’s server and rendering prims and sculpties in Unity. The scripting language can also use C# and supports a way more complete set of functions then is available in SL. This list is so long I don’t know where to start on functionality it supports that LSL doesn’t support. Not sure your point about FPS, it has Ambers Occlusion culling, beast lighting and deferred lighting which lets it create FPS you can’t do in SL for the same amount of content. So if you are going to comment on Unity please do your homework and don’t mislead people. M. -- *From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com [mailto: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Brandon Husbands *Sent:* Sunday, October 03, 2010 8:20 PM *To:* Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey *Cc:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers Unity is the biggest POS i have ever used Not well designed. IMHO. Its like trying to do SL in javascript. Not literally but you know what i mean. It was never designed for a heavy network transport now multi player / mmo style. A FPS maybe but nothing on a grand scale. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey ex...@weylan-yutani.com wrote: On Sun, 2010-10-03 at 18:15 -0400, Glen Canaday wrote: That's why I suggested Ogre instead. I personally think it would be a better fit and more productive to look at. Others may have different opinions. Well, I run Linux and agree that being shut out after years of being supported would be suboptimal for me. Running in a VM is an exercise that only a masochist can love compared to an application natively supported. Plus, a VM position forces people to purchase additional OSes just to support one (or a handful) of apps, which add massive overheard in additional administration. At-home-VM is a temporary workaround, not a platform strategy. Remember - SL is supposed to be Fast, Easy, Fun... not an enterprise-level support nightmare just to boot and run in the first place. Unity3D seems like a lot of lose to me: for the same amount of effort to switch to that, re-base on something else that keeps the same supported set of platforms or extends it without dropping already supported platforms. OGRE may be a great suggestion, especially in light of the RealXtend folks having already broken a LOT of the ground of an SL client that uses OGRE rendering. Why re-reinvent their wheel? Maybe talk to them about Naali and see what goes from there? -- Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey Promise her anything, but give her Exxon unleaded. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges --
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
Obviously these are subjective statements but I think your statements are based on an incomplete understanding of the tool and probably limited experience using it. Not sure how you can say it is clunky. I have a scene hierarchy where I can list and see every object in my seen. It's like seeing every prim in my region. I can select any object and view it in the inspector. Scripts are assigned to objects and not copied and duplicated into each prim. I can edit a script once and every object that uses it gets that update. In the inspector I can see every public value of the script and change its value without having to actually edit the script. I can use assets directly from my disk without having to upload them when creating. That is much faster than waiting for SL to do things. Scripts can access to every bone in the skeleton system and I can override animations to adjust the bones to a given scene's needs, for instance if two avatars are a different height and I can adjust the bones to make their hands connect so they can really walk hand in hand. I can create keyed animations in Unity or use animations from other programs. Animates can throw events which can trigger code to do things. From scripts you can create and edit the animations and their key data. You can layer animations, set their weights. You can sync the length of layers. Cross fade animations. You have materials like you do in Maya. I can create custom shaders. You can have spot lights, point lights and directional lights. You can create your own skyboxes. You can use water any where, not limited to just one plane with the water shader. I can use meshes. Any object in the scene can have a skeleton. I can edit meshes and vertices in real-time allowing me to create parameterized content in real-time. I can load assets from a URL or through websockets. I can load textures from a URL or through websockets. There is a profiler that lets me see in great detail what the engine is doing. I can use Visual Studio to develop my scripts with all the features of Visual Studio. I can run a debugger and debug the scripts and libraries I am using in the scene. I can do baked lighting including ambient occlusion inside the tool I can do occlusion culling so I can have very large scenes. I can control what assets are loading and stream the rest in the background. I can use libraries of code. From one code base I can be published to many platforms including web and mobile phone. Linux is the big one they are missing a native support for. Should I go on? This is a group that is focused on Second Life client so not trying to convince anyone to switch. But I do think it is fair that people give accurate information based on real experience and not guessing. I think if you understood the tool more you will see your statements are based on inaccurate understanding of the tool. I personally do believe that the game development platforms will outpace anyone doing proprietary client development and as such the days are quickly approaching where you won't be able to justify the cost of developing your own client rendering engines when you can get the features off the shelf for $1200 that would cost you way more to do yourself. I also believe you won't stay up and will find yourself quickly falling behind. M. _ From: Brandon Husbands [mailto:xot...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:57 PM To: mysticaldem...@xrgrid.com Cc: Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers Actually its not inaccurate. The tools themselves are clunky.. And i am not taking this as a lsl vs their language. I am talking about the engine itself. From a lower level perspective. Unity is really more of a middleware when it comes to graphics engines. sure you can use any network you want but in a whole as what it offers as a base is not what would be able to be used for something on the scale of sl. Also as a user you would not have those midddle ware tools that you see unless you want the whole thing to be clunky. Its rigging and control system is designed for rapid prototyping and higher level designig. I would put unity as an equivilant to making a mod for a fps with good tools unlike most mod systems. But as a complete engine from a graphics and other standpoints The hero engine blows that away. Actually there are quite a few game engines that surpass unity. And if we take thoes its like compairing writing with QT vs flash. (not quick time... but QT). Flash is great as a packaged thing but its limited. Now unity can me modified and such to some extent but no where whats needed for a SL type of thing. And for the record I am not a fan boi of any engine or system. But i have developed a mmo from the ground
Re: [opensource-dev] Question about LOD debug setting
Whats the jira for this defect you say exists that I have never once observed despite always using a setting of 4? There is a different debug setting calledRenderMaxNodeSize that produces the behavior you noted btw. It's default is 8192. Go lower and what you describe happens. From: Henri Beauchamp sl...@free.fr To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 7:46:24 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Question about LOD debug setting On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:37:49 -0400, Ponzu wrote: I picked up a notecard that says to increase RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4. Is this reasonable, do you think? And if so, why not increase the default a bit (currently seems to be 1.125 4 is OK for viewer v1.23.5. For Snowglobe (v1 and v2) and viewer 2, you should not use more than 3, because when using larger values, you will get graphic glitches with very small prims, especially with attachments: zooming out, they will vanish (as expected), but zooming back in, they will stay hidden 4 times out of 5 (zooming fast out and back in may get the small primes to appear again)... Henri. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers
Ive used it, and fount it blehh. I think we are failing to communicate about our conception of what is possible and what is used. Are you saying that the normal user would have full access to what you use to develop the client? As its a middle ware really i fail to see how your going to implement that. I could be wrong. There are so many propitiatory things that you'd have to code in and handle rendering for with sl. Also remember you can not change the server backend. I just do not see it possible or powerful enough to handle what sl uses and does. I guess its the same concept between higher level langs and lower level ones. I could be wrong about this and just be old school in my thoughts. If your so sure that it can do what needs to be done why have you not already done a prototype. From what your saying should be easy to get connected and render the scene. I would love to be wrong in that regard but then again i just don't see how your going to handle such things in a closed source engine. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 9:36 PM, mysticaldem...@xrgrid.com wrote: Obviously these are subjective statements but I think your statements are based on an incomplete understanding of the tool and probably limited experience using it. Not sure how you can say it is clunky. I have a scene hierarchy where I can list and see every object in my seen. It’s like seeing every prim in my region. I can select any object and view it in the inspector. Scripts are assigned to objects and not copied and duplicated into each prim. I can edit a script once and every object that uses it gets that update. In the inspector I can see every public value of the script and change its value without having to actually edit the script. I can use assets directly from my disk without having to upload them when creating. That is much faster than waiting for SL to do things. Scripts can access to every bone in the skeleton system and I can override animations to adjust the bones to a given scene’s needs, for instance if two avatars are a different height and I can adjust the bones to make their hands connect so they can really walk hand in hand. I can create keyed animations in Unity or use animations from other programs. Animates can throw events which can trigger code to do things. From scripts you can create and edit the animations and their key data. You can layer animations, set their weights. You can sync the length of layers. Cross fade animations. You have materials like you do in Maya. I can create custom shaders. You can have spot lights, point lights and directional lights. You can create your own skyboxes. You can use water any where, not limited to just one plane with the water shader. I can use meshes. Any object in the scene can have a skeleton. I can edit meshes and vertices in real-time allowing me to create parameterized content in real-time. I can load assets from a URL or through websockets. I can load textures from a URL or through websockets. There is a profiler that lets me see in great detail what the engine is doing. I can use Visual Studio to develop my scripts with all the features of Visual Studio. I can run a debugger and debug the scripts and libraries I am using in the scene. I can do baked lighting including ambient occlusion inside the tool I can do occlusion culling so I can have very large scenes. I can control what assets are loading and stream the rest in the background. I can use libraries of code. From one code base I can be published to many platforms including web and mobile phone. Linux is the big one they are missing a native support for. Should I go on? This is a group that is focused on Second Life client so not trying to convince anyone to switch. But I do think it is fair that people give accurate information based on real experience and not guessing. I think if you understood the tool more you will see your statements are based on inaccurate understanding of the tool. I personally do believe that the game development platforms will outpace anyone doing proprietary client development and as such the days are quickly approaching where you won’t be able to justify the cost of developing your own client rendering engines when you can get the features off the shelf for $1200 that would cost you way more to do yourself. I also believe you won’t stay up and will find yourself quickly falling behind. M. -- *From:* Brandon Husbands [mailto:xot...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:57 PM *To:* mysticaldem...@xrgrid.com *Cc:* Robert Exile In Paradise Murphey; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Unity 3D as possible base for future (maybe even official) SL Viewers Actually its not inaccurate. The tools themselves are clunky.. And i am not taking this as a lsl
