Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
Its an illusion OpenSim is cheaper if you look at total cost of ownership and include all time related to managing it. Seems this is the wrong mailing list for this. Please take it to the forums or your blog. M. -Original Message- From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Carlo Wood Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 12:53 PM To: malachi Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com; Anders Arnholm Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. This is not a bad idea at all, except that LL is here for the money so they will refuse it. But opensim might use the idea. You just have to adjust a bit ;). Instead of having people pay for a server 24/7, you could allow them to pay for a certain period of the day (many would find 2 hours per day enough). Then the same machine that would host their sim could be used for other sims during the other 22 hours. I'm sure that with that method it should be possible to cut the price of sims to 25%. But then again, Linden Lab is about to screw us all already in this regard by going to limit the resources of every (private) sim to the tiny share that one would have when the sim is fully loaded. So, that means that you can only use those resources that otherwise would have been available if the sim was loaded to the max 24/7 (which is clearly isn't the case on 99.9% of the sims). As a direct result the same hardware can be used for more sims at the same time while you still pay the same (using virtual hosting). The price SHOULD be cut to 10%, so in effect it's the same idea, but now with all financial benefit exclusively for LL. On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:28:06AM -0400, malachi wrote: > or we could do what that one episode of the outer limits called stasis > where they take and split the population of the world into 3 groups. > alphas betas and elites. then every 72 hours the alphas and betas switch > on a cryogenic freeze. half the population sleep while the other half run > about working and what not. and the elite stay away all the time. Lindens > are the elite i suppose. now if we can just get the system to let only > half of the people log in for 3 days. and the other half stay offline. and > alternate. we would experience much less lag i think lol -- Carlo Wood ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
This is not a bad idea at all, except that LL is here for the money so they will refuse it. But opensim might use the idea. You just have to adjust a bit ;). Instead of having people pay for a server 24/7, you could allow them to pay for a certain period of the day (many would find 2 hours per day enough). Then the same machine that would host their sim could be used for other sims during the other 22 hours. I'm sure that with that method it should be possible to cut the price of sims to 25%. But then again, Linden Lab is about to screw us all already in this regard by going to limit the resources of every (private) sim to the tiny share that one would have when the sim is fully loaded. So, that means that you can only use those resources that otherwise would have been available if the sim was loaded to the max 24/7 (which is clearly isn't the case on 99.9% of the sims). As a direct result the same hardware can be used for more sims at the same time while you still pay the same (using virtual hosting). The price SHOULD be cut to 10%, so in effect it's the same idea, but now with all financial benefit exclusively for LL. On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:28:06AM -0400, malachi wrote: > or we could do what that one episode of the outer limits called stasis > where they take and split the population of the world into 3 groups. > alphas betas and elites. then every 72 hours the alphas and betas switch > on a cryogenic freeze. half the population sleep while the other half run > about working and what not. and the elite stay away all the time. Lindens > are the elite i suppose. now if we can just get the system to let only > half of the people log in for 3 days. and the other half stay offline. and > alternate. we would experience much less lag i think lol -- Carlo Wood ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 06:30:56 -0400, Anders Arnholm wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 12:02:46AM +0200, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: >> imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted >> is safer, for both resident and developers > > It's also safer to put all humans in a straight jacket, that would also > probaly solve most current enviroment problems. The downside does > however still make most realise the down sides of this is way bigger > that the gains. or we could do what that one episode of the outer limits called stasis where they take and split the population of the world into 3 groups. alphas betas and elites. then every 72 hours the alphas and betas switch on a cryogenic freeze. half the population sleep while the other half run about working and what not. and the elite stay away all the time. Lindens are the elite i suppose. now if we can just get the system to let only half of the people log in for 3 days. and the other half stay offline. and alternate. we would experience much less lag i think lol > Most TPV's contains fixes that make them safer that the LL viewer, > Linden have so far had a to slow acceptance of user fixes.Or for some > reason not let them in. The new Snowstorm hopefulle helps this. > > There are still however much smell in the code, not more and in > someplaces less that most big projects. But it's there all projects get > them. > > And why the heck did i get my self involved again... I need my non > coding time... > > / Balp -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 12:02:46AM +0200, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted > is safer, for both resident and developers It's also safer to put all humans in a straight jacket, that would also probaly solve most current enviroment problems. The downside does however still make most realise the down sides of this is way bigger that the gains. Most TPV's contains fixes that make them safer that the LL viewer, Linden have so far had a to slow acceptance of user fixes.Or for some reason not let them in. The new Snowstorm hopefulle helps this. There are still however much smell in the code, not more and in someplaces less that most big projects. But it's there all projects get them. And why the heck did i get my self involved again... I need my non coding time... / Balp -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\and...@arnholm.se /|_, \\http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
"> The gist of this seeming to be that allowing a Third Party client the > ability to use LLKDU.dll means that client is no longer TPV compliant." Interestingly enough, the Emergence viewer (published just before Phoenix) offers to install LLKDU.dll (i think it does so by downloading the official viewer and extracting the dll file), yet, is also listed in the TPVD : "Emergence Viewer 7 Sep 2010" It did ask me while installing, the application directory indeed holds llkdu.dll, the release notes actually mention it: "Changes from version 1.5.0.0 to 1.5.0.1 Dictionaries now downloaded dynamicly again Fixed bug in login page and in clothing protection (showing as emergence instead of emerald) *llkdu added to installer and now working in viewer* User agent refined Installer made red :D and smaller" So, i'm at least confused about this EMKDU and LLKDU legal status, and even more why not only EMKDU as well as LLKDU was used as argument against Emerald, i.e. Emerald (before the blow up) was requested also not to use LLKDU. I quote Aradella Steadham: "Linden Lab has made demands of the team that are impossible to meet. Among the demands not listed publicly elsewhere was to publicly release an RC without any ability to load the emkdu or llkdu files. This was do-able. The final demand was to 'delete' 3 key members of our team. While making this demand, Linden Lab was quite aware that this was effectively the guillotine to the project." Last not least, i think LL has acted pretty reasonable, identified the 3 brats in the Emerald team succesfully, also was very rapid in accepting BOTH Phoenix and Emergence in the TPVD. So rumours about 'viewer 2 only' and 'linden banning emerald because it is too succesful' seem to be plain wrong in my view. regards, and sorry for bothering with offtopic issues, TT 2010/9/9 Harold Brown > In regards to Phoenix vs Emerald. The ONLY things Phoenix removed > from the client that made them TPV compliant was the EMKDU.dll file > (as well as removing the ability to use the LLKDU.dll) > > The gist of this seeming to be that allowing a Third Party client the > ability to use LLKDU.dll means that client is no longer TPV compliant. > > Interesting enough the only valid arguement for the removal is the > fact that KDU is a closed source binary and the client is GPL. That > arguement is, of course, only valid for viewer code earlier than > Snowstorm as the code license was changed to LGPL. > > Honestly with the impending removal of Snowglobe from the Linden Lab > version control repositories, this all reeks of ways to force people > to the new Viewer 2.x interface. One which I personally can not use > for any extended lengths of time as it just doesn't flow naturally to > me as a User Interface. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Marc Adored > wrote: > > I agree and Phoenix seems to be coming only very well to and all the > > negativity behind emerald seems to be gone in the atmosphere of > > phoenix. I am pretty excited to see where it heads! Maybe this thread > > can be saved and put back on topic :D > > > > Tom I know your upset about them banning Emerald but it was in their > > right to do so there is no arguing that. I suggest that if you like > > emerald you should try phoenix it is the cleaned up spawn of emerald > > and has all the non-controversial developers from emerald working on > > it even LGG :D I am sure you will notices differences in the viewer > > but it has all the same features plus some really neat new ones. > > > > On-topic part is phoenix is shaping up to be a pretty decently > > organized opensource viewer should we focus on that now? :D > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: > >> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 > >> Marc Adored wrote: > >> > >>> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at > >>> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of > >>> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a > >>> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make > >>> that point. > >> > >> Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step" > >> called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is > >> only a lil actors show... > >> ___ > >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > >> > > ___ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
The Emerald login screen is still under the control of the same people right now. These people are recently banned from SL and more than likely holding personal vendettas. Of course it needs to be blocked theres a genuine threat there. Maybe not in the main code of the viewer but definately on the login screen. If LL didn't act and something happened to people using Emerald the law suites would be heading the way of the real corporation with real money and a duty to protect it's customers. On , Harold Brown wrote: ANY Secondlife Viewer could be used for the exact same type of DDoS attack. Even more so the 2.0 viewers with Media on a Prim. The DDoS was from a webpage with hidden images being called from another site. Not from the clients being used as a Bot network. In this case it just happened to be the Viewer login screen. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Maya Remblai snowfox...@dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote: > Oh for crying out loud...Emerald DID cause a DDoS attack, which is a > CRIME. It also collected information about users that it shouldn't have. > Those are facts that LL is aware of. It's a dangerous piece of software > and has no right to connect to the grid now. I used to use Emerald, and > not many people advocated it more than me, but now I won't touch it > because I know it's dangerous. LL did the right thing, and I'm impressed > that they had the guts to do it at all. There was nothing personal or > political about it. I do hope that LL will learn from the drama though, > and get their act together with viewer work in general. > > End of story. Go find another TPV and get on when your life. Most TPVs > have the same feature set as Emerald now anyway, like temp uploads and > useful radar. > > Maya > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
ANY Secondlife Viewer could be used for the exact same type of DDoS attack. Even more so the 2.0 viewers with Media on a Prim. The DDoS was from a webpage with hidden images being called from another site. Not from the clients being used as a Bot network. In this case it just happened to be the Viewer login screen. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Maya Remblai wrote: > Oh for crying out loud...Emerald DID cause a DDoS attack, which is a > CRIME. It also collected information about users that it shouldn't have. > Those are facts that LL is aware of. It's a dangerous piece of software > and has no right to connect to the grid now. I used to use Emerald, and > not many people advocated it more than me, but now I won't touch it > because I know it's dangerous. LL did the right thing, and I'm impressed > that they had the guts to do it at all. There was nothing personal or > political about it. I do hope that LL will learn from the drama though, > and get their act together with viewer work in general. > > End of story. Go find another TPV and get on when your life. Most TPVs > have the same feature set as Emerald now anyway, like temp uploads and > useful radar. > > Maya > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
Oh for crying out loud...Emerald DID cause a DDoS attack, which is a CRIME. It also collected information about users that it shouldn't have. Those are facts that LL is aware of. It's a dangerous piece of software and has no right to connect to the grid now. I used to use Emerald, and not many people advocated it more than me, but now I won't touch it because I know it's dangerous. LL did the right thing, and I'm impressed that they had the guts to do it at all. There was nothing personal or political about it. I do hope that LL will learn from the drama though, and get their act together with viewer work in general. End of story. Go find another TPV and get on when your life. Most TPVs have the same feature set as Emerald now anyway, like temp uploads and useful radar. Maya ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
I am personnally VERY PROUD of what LL did with this issue, i would have expected a faster response but we can't blame them too much since it happened over a weekend. What the folks at Emerald did was plain wrong, they have no rights to use your computer to run their attacks. For all we know, they may have been doing that in the past at a smaller scale we'll never know. I strongly believe that LL should even review some part of the code in the viewers they propose as 3rd party viewer and they should have a team dedicated to monitor all of them in case this ever happen again. For my part, ill stay away from those viewer with the flavor of emerald, I cannot even trust the new people they got. There might be still people with bad intention behind it but that is my own opinion. I even believe that the people who were behind those attacks should be procecuted as it is prescribed by the law in the United States. Peoples should be making a class action against Modular systems, all user of Emerald could join it since they all were victims and they were forced to participate in a collective attack against one or many websites / service on the internet. -Message d'origine- From: AltairSythosMemo Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:38 PM To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100 Tom Grimshaw wrote: > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will > allow to connect to their SERVICE. are you joking? is THEIR service, on THEIR servers, done with THEIR software. > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with > the software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. not only with team, but with code of emerald viewer too, way to copybot others creations, private data "statistically collected" and some licenses violations... ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On 9/8/2010 16:39, Tom Grimshaw wrote: >Dear Linden Lab, > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > my PC. > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > ~T > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > ye gods, enough with the drama. We expect it on forums and blogs but on THIS list??? just grow a pair. Bottom line, Emerald devs screwed up and violated TPV, they are gone and so is their malware-infected viewer. LL did exactly what any responsible org would do and nixed 'em. Done. Over. END. Now either get over it and pick an alternative viewer or dont let the door hit your posterior on the way out, ok? ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100 Tom Grimshaw wrote: > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will > allow to connect to their SERVICE. are you joking? is THEIR service, on THEIR servers, done with THEIR software. > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with > the software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. not only with team, but with code of emerald viewer too, way to copybot others creations, private data "statistically collected" and some licenses violations... ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
so the software "Emerald" has no flaws that effect second life in any way you say? attempted DDoSing a website from the client exposing user data to the world(then hiding it in encryption that is sent only to the creators) those are goodies that everyone wants to be a part of i take it. i mean thats what you are saying. perhaps you need to go read the TOS mate. you know that thing that you clicked "I AGREE" to when you logged in. LINDEN LAB reserves the right to revoke your access to the second life servers at anytime for any reason (or for no reason at all) with or without notice. no one cares one way or another which clients you install. just like no one cares what other stuff you have on your computer(except the emerald devs) the only thing lindens care about is the fact that they asked the developers to remove the bull s#$T from the client that was in violation to their rules. the devs "REFUSED" < do you even understand that word? linden lab blocks the client that is in obvious violation of the TOS and state that they will BAN/terminate your access to second life if you bypass that block on the software. now lets have a peek at this lets say you get hash banned from second life. and you change your ip and mac address. and log into sl if they find out that it is you what happens? THEY BAN YOU AGAIN. are you saying they dont have the right to ban you? if so log out of sl and log into open sim. now. that being said i think that if they are going to block emerald and obviously ban key creators from second life they NEED TO.(AND WOULD A LINDEN PLEASE READ THIS MESSAGE) ban all accounts that those people have. instead of just allowing them to generate 1000 alts with the last name MODULARSYSTEMS(wait they already have) and logging in as much as they want. now. im going back to my snowstorm. could we please move the topic to something that has relevance to what this group is called? On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:21:26 -0400, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > On 08/09/2010 23:09, Mike Dickson wrote: >> Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again. You can run >> whatever you like on your PC. And Linden Lab has every right to >> determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. > > Okay, let's just outline this properly. > > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow > to connect to their SERVICE. The only thing they DO have a right to do > is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP > packets they want to accept. It's my right to use whichever software I > want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the > legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their > version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a > right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban. > > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the > software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. > > ~T > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
> Okay, let's just outline this properly. > > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow > to connect to their SERVICE. The only thing they DO have a right to do > is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP > packets they want to accept. And if they chose to determine what packets they wish to accept by the viewer you are using it is there right. Just like that could by al rights say only Windows users are allowed to use their service. It is THEIR right to chose and YOUR privilage to use their service. > It's my right to use whichever software I > want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the > legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their > version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a > right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban. > They actually do have EVERY right to threaten people with account bans if they do not follow the terms of service or try to bypass any quality control measures they take. > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the > software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. You may be right about its current state but a few times in the past it it has proven to be unsafe for secondlifes user base to use it and the dev team that was on it could not be trusted to not allow those things to happen again. But this is going into the REASON why the banned it which is irrelevant to the fact that they DID ban it. Like I said regardless of the "morals" behind it they have every right to ban whatever for whatever they want it is their service. Legally they have obligations to their user base. Normally this wouldn't apply to third party products but they did set a standard for third party products so they have to uphold that standard or they me be legally obligated for any damage a third party application they endorse may cause. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
In regards to Phoenix vs Emerald. The ONLY things Phoenix removed from the client that made them TPV compliant was the EMKDU.dll file (as well as removing the ability to use the LLKDU.dll) The gist of this seeming to be that allowing a Third Party client the ability to use LLKDU.dll means that client is no longer TPV compliant. Interesting enough the only valid arguement for the removal is the fact that KDU is a closed source binary and the client is GPL. That arguement is, of course, only valid for viewer code earlier than Snowstorm as the code license was changed to LGPL. Honestly with the impending removal of Snowglobe from the Linden Lab version control repositories, this all reeks of ways to force people to the new Viewer 2.x interface. One which I personally can not use for any extended lengths of time as it just doesn't flow naturally to me as a User Interface. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Marc Adored wrote: > I agree and Phoenix seems to be coming only very well to and all the > negativity behind emerald seems to be gone in the atmosphere of > phoenix. I am pretty excited to see where it heads! Maybe this thread > can be saved and put back on topic :D > > Tom I know your upset about them banning Emerald but it was in their > right to do so there is no arguing that. I suggest that if you like > emerald you should try phoenix it is the cleaned up spawn of emerald > and has all the non-controversial developers from emerald working on > it even LGG :D I am sure you will notices differences in the viewer > but it has all the same features plus some really neat new ones. > > On-topic part is phoenix is shaping up to be a pretty decently > organized opensource viewer should we focus on that now? :D > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: >> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 >> Marc Adored wrote: >> >>> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at >>> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of >>> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a >>> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make >>> that point. >> >> Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step" >> called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is >> only a lil actors show... >> ___ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On 08/09/2010 23:09, Mike Dickson wrote: > Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again. You can run > whatever you like on your PC. And Linden Lab has every right to > determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. Okay, let's just outline this properly. The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. The only thing they DO have a right to do is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP packets they want to accept. It's my right to use whichever software I want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban. Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger that might evolve. ~T ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
I agree and Phoenix seems to be coming only very well to and all the negativity behind emerald seems to be gone in the atmosphere of phoenix. I am pretty excited to see where it heads! Maybe this thread can be saved and put back on topic :D Tom I know your upset about them banning Emerald but it was in their right to do so there is no arguing that. I suggest that if you like emerald you should try phoenix it is the cleaned up spawn of emerald and has all the non-controversial developers from emerald working on it even LGG :D I am sure you will notices differences in the viewer but it has all the same features plus some really neat new ones. On-topic part is phoenix is shaping up to be a pretty decently organized opensource viewer should we focus on that now? :D On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: > On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 > Marc Adored wrote: > >> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at >> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of >> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a >> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make >> that point. > > Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step" > called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is > only a lil actors show... > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On 09/08/2010 05:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... > > I told you so > > When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me > that they want to control what viewer can connect and that > this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that > is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: >> Dear Linden Lab, >> >> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on >> my PC. Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again. You can run whatever you like on your PC. And Linden Lab has every right to determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. And there's no indication and never has been that LL will block anything that's not 2.0. Their are some text only clients on the TPV that connect legitimately now. The Emerald team brought this on themselves. This kind of stuff has no business on a development list. Please take it elsewhere. Mike ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:03:15 +0100 Tom Grimshaw wrote: > My issue is that none of these reasons involve the way the viewer > interacts with the LL Servers in any way. They made the decision > based on the conduct of a few idiots (and there are always idiots in > open source projects) - and not because of any real issue with the > viewer itself. > If the viewer was causing server issues or was enabling content > theft, I would agree with this decision. partially right... discovered the "no good" side a team can choose if fix it or not, if somebody believe to be a god why him viewer is the most used is HIM fault... not LL one job of LL is provide a grid and hold businness safe, if works from residents/creators can be stolen with few clicks is a viewer problem and i PRETEND Linden do something to safe my businness... (and LL did it) ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
Dear Tom Grimshaw, You're right, LL has no business telling you what software you can install and run on your own computer, they definitely shouldn't try to censor OSS, and they would look pretty despicable if they were trying to do that. Good thing they aren't doing that at all here isn't it? What they can do, is tell you what software they'll ALLOW to connect to THEIR service :) You are still perfectly free to choose what viewer to use and connect with Emerald to any other grid that still allows it. They aren't policing anything but their own service, which they are most certianly within their rights to do. You're welcome :) ~F On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > Dear Linden Lab, > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > my PC. > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > ~T > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 Marc Adored wrote: > Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at > linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of > Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a > flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make > that point. Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step" called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is only a lil actors show... ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On 08/09/2010 22:58, Celierra Darling wrote: > there's reasons why LL doesn't trust Emerald to connect to their servers. My issue is that none of these reasons involve the way the viewer interacts with the LL Servers in any way. They made the decision based on the conduct of a few idiots (and there are always idiots in open source projects) - and not because of any real issue with the viewer itself. If the viewer was causing server issues or was enabling content theft, I would agree with this decision. ~T ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 22:39:00 +0100 Tom Grimshaw wrote: > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run > on my PC. > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on > Linden Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your > servers, in fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by > the channel and version provided in login, and this has been proven > by the number of clones that have popped up with their channel > renamed (and the ID texture changed of course). You cannot censor > Open Source software, and the fact that you're trying to makes you a > despicable organisation. it isn't a censorship, is a protection for residents anyway there are a dozen of non-linden viewers > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted is safer, for both resident and developers ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
Sorry but it is their service and they do have that right. They can block you personally if they wanted to because they are providing you with a service and they don't have to. Most people forget that. They don't actually need any reason at all to stop providing you with service. If they chose to block certain viewers because they want to force people to use approved viewers then they have that right. I am not talking about what they should do I am talking about what they have the right to do. Honestly if they wanted to they could block any non-official viewer and require everyone use their viewer. its just like any service it is up to them on what they feel is beneficial to the service. As i said previously they are not preventing you from using that viewer they are just preventing you from using that viewer on THEIR service is all. There are tons of more open grids you can chose from to use your viewer if you chose too. I think most people are spoiled by the fact that they have been given a choice by linden labs. But thats how humanity works you give a little they want more because they always devalue what they have. Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make that point. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > On 08/09/2010 22:46, Marc Adored wrote: >> >> On another not they have every right to police who and what is >> connecting to their service > > No, given that the data that the viewer is sending is identical, they have > no right to do that whatsoever. The software I choose to use on my PC is > entirely my choice. > > I'll continue to use my own viewer that i've forked from Emerald a while > back - this change doesn't affect me - but it does reflect extremely poorly > on the lab and their ethics. > > ~T > > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
You can still use that software, but you'll just have to connect somewhere else for service if you do so. LL doesn't have to care only about direct effects on their own servers, and LL has the right to no longer trust viewers that identify themselves as "Emerald". Sure, you can get around it if you really want, but keep in mind that there's reasons why LL doesn't trust Emerald to connect to their servers. (Well, to be more precise, the original Emerald - there are Emerald forks on the TPV directory, which aren't affected AFAIK.) Celi On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > Dear Linden Lab, > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > my PC. > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > ~T > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
Just switch to Phoenix its the projects new structure and project name. On another not they have every right to police who and what is connecting to their service. They also have every right to ban you for whatever reason they want without giving any reason at all. They are not policing your computer you have the choice to use other grids with your banned viewer they are not blocking you from using the application all together just blocking you from connecting to their service with it. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... > > I told you so > > When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me > that they want to control what viewer can connect and that > this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that > is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: >> Dear Linden Lab, >> >> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on >> my PC. >> >> Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden >> Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in >> fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and >> version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of >> clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID >> texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and >> the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. >> >> Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. >> >> ~T >> ___ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
It is there grid that you are connecting too with the viewer of your choice, so yea it is there business. As much as we all want to think that sl is open source, there is only parts of it that are. Im sure no one is going to stop you from using and open grid with emerald. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... > > I told you so > > When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me > that they want to control what viewer can connect and that > this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that > is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > > Dear Linden Lab, > > > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > > my PC. > > > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > > > ~T > > ___ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers.
I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... I told you so When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me that they want to control what viewer can connect and that this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > Dear Linden Lab, > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > my PC. > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > ~T > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
