Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Mark T. Voelker]

> It was my understanding that messages that don't include a proper
> topic end up being sent to everyone. So you can use topics to

That depends on what the user sets under "Do you want to receive
messages that do not match any topic filter?"

At Your Service,

Mark T. Voelker
Systems Development Unit
+1 919 392-4326
mvoel...@cisco.com

On 10/30/2012 04:29 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Mark T. Voelker wrote:
>> Thus, I'd have missed those messages if I were only subscribed to
>> the Quantum topic.
> 
> It was my understanding that messages that don't include a proper
> topic end up being sent to everyone. So you can use topics to
> "actively ignore stuff that has been marked [Nova]", rather than "only
> receive [baremetal] stuff".
> 
>> Personally I like to see everything so it doesn't much matter to
>> me other than in how I set up my email filters, but I think perhaps
>> this is one reason why we've had the discussion about more vs fewer
>> mailing lists more than once.
> 
> I personally prefer to receive everything and do filtering client-side
> too. Topics are just an additional option, I guess.
> 



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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Thierry Carrez]

Mark T. Voelker wrote:
> Thus, I'd have missed those messages if I were only subscribed to
> the Quantum topic.

It was my understanding that messages that don't include a proper
topic end up being sent to everyone. So you can use topics to
"actively ignore stuff that has been marked [Nova]", rather than "only
receive [baremetal] stuff".

> Personally I like to see everything so it doesn't much matter to
> me other than in how I set up my email filters, but I think perhaps
> this is one reason why we've had the discussion about more vs fewer
> mailing lists more than once.

I personally prefer to receive everything and do filtering client-side
too. Topics are just an additional option, I guess.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Mark T. Voelker]

> subscribe to the Nova topic at the link above. When I write a message
> about nova I have to add '[Nova]' (or 'Nova') anywhere in the subject

(Sidenote: does 'Nova' actually work?  Looks to me like the regex in
mailman requires the square braces...)

Personally I'm fine with either model, but just to call out the common
complaint I hear about topics: I think a lot of folks feel that what you
just pointed out is actually a major weakness.  The topic functionality
requires that *each individual sender* be aware of that functionality
and format his subject lines accordingly.  That often doesn't happen
even with folks who've been active in the community for some time, let
alone folks who are new.  When someone doesn't format his subject
properly, it either causes clutter when email sorting filters break or
causes folks to miss messages about things they care about if they've
subscribed only to particular topics.  I know there have been at least a
couple of threads about Quantum in the past couple of weeks (one
pertaining to Ceilometer integration, one pertaining to the Folsom
stable branch come to mind) that didn't have [Quantum] (or [Ceilometer]
for that matter) in the subject line.  Thus, I'd have missed those
messages if I were only subscribed to the Quantum topic.

Personally I like to see everything so it doesn't much matter to me
other than in how I set up my email filters, but I think perhaps this is
one reason why we've had the discussion about more vs fewer mailing
lists more than once.

At Your Service,

Mark T. Voelker

On 10/29/2012 09:01 AM, Stefano Maffulli wrote:
> On 10/29/2012 12:32 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>> We really shouldn't go in that direction: the openstack-dev list is
>> already an aggregator of topics, since we use "mailman topics" on it.
> 
> Indeed, mailman topics are very powerful. The current topics for
> openstack-dev are listed on each subscriber's personal page:
> 
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/openstack-dev
> 
> As a subscriber of openstack-dev I can decide to receive only messages
> tagged for a topic by selecting the ones I'm interested in. As a writer
> of a message I can tag it by adding the topic to the subject line of the
> message.
> 
> For example, if I want to receive only messages for Nova, I can
> subscribe to the Nova topic at the link above. When I write a message
> about nova I have to add '[Nova]' (or 'Nova') anywhere in the subject.
> 
> Creating a topic of bare-metal is easy, using topics is a matter of
> habit. I believe that we should not create more lists unless strictly
> necessary. I also understood from David that the baremetal group felt
> very strongly against using any of the existing list, even when I
> suggested to use topics. I'm glad we're having this conversation now and
> I'm open to any outcome.
> 
> /stef
> 
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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Sean Dague]

On 10/28/2012 08:19 PM, David Kang wrote:


  I agree that subject prefix is a way.
There are pros and cons of either approach.
However, when I asked a few of the people who showed interest in bare-metal 
discussion,
a new mailing list was preferred by them.
And we thought a separate mailing list makes people easier to participate and 
to manage the discussion.

  We can discuss this issue again among the people who signed up the new 
mailing list.


I think the more general concern is that part of the challenges of 
getting the current bare-metal approach in has been that it's largely 
been developed on the side. I think the path for successful evolution of 
bare-metal in nova is to stop thinking about it as a side effort, and 
more a part of normal nova development, as other changes in nova will 
have implications for bare-metal for sure.


So driving the discussion back onto the main list would be really 
beneficial.


-Sean

--
Sean Dague
IBM Linux Technology Center
email: sda...@linux.vnet.ibm.com
alt-email: slda...@us.ibm.com


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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Stefano Maffulli]

On 10/29/2012 12:32 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote:

We really shouldn't go in that direction: the openstack-dev list is
already an aggregator of topics, since we use "mailman topics" on it.


Indeed, mailman topics are very powerful. The current topics for 
openstack-dev are listed on each subscriber's personal page:


http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/openstack-dev

As a subscriber of openstack-dev I can decide to receive only messages 
tagged for a topic by selecting the ones I'm interested in. As a writer 
of a message I can tag it by adding the topic to the subject line of the 
message.


For example, if I want to receive only messages for Nova, I can 
subscribe to the Nova topic at the link above. When I write a message 
about nova I have to add '[Nova]' (or 'Nova') anywhere in the subject.


Creating a topic of bare-metal is easy, using topics is a matter of 
habit. I believe that we should not create more lists unless strictly 
necessary. I also understood from David that the baremetal group felt 
very strongly against using any of the existing list, even when I 
suggested to use topics. I'm glad we're having this conversation now and 
I'm open to any outcome.


/stef

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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Thierry Carrez]

Sam Stoelinga wrote:
> If mailing list gets separated, it would be good to have an aggregate
> mailing list we can subscribe to which has all nova related mailing lists.

We really shouldn't go in that direction: the openstack-dev list is
already an aggregator of topics, since we use "mailman topics" on it.

I see a lot of drawbacks in having the ML separate. The only drawback I
can think of in having the baremetal discussions on the main
openstack-dev list is that some people might only want to receive
baremetal stuff. Those (hopefully rare) people can use client-side
filtering on the subject... or we also can setup a "baremetal" mailman
topic so that you can directly filter using your ML preferences.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Sam Stoelinga]

If mailing list gets separated, it would be good to have an aggregate
mailing list we can subscribe to which has all nova related mailing lists.

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 3:53 PM, Gary Kotton  wrote:

>  On 10/29/2012 02:59 AM, Asher Newcomer wrote:
>
> +1
>
> On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Russell Bryant wrote:
>
>> On 10/28/2012 08:19 PM, David Kang wrote:
>> >
>> >  I agree that subject prefix is a way.
>> > There are pros and cons of either approach.
>> > However, when I asked a few of the people who showed interest in
>> bare-metal discussion,
>> > a new mailing list was preferred by them.
>> > And we thought a separate mailing list makes people easier to
>> participate and to manage the discussion.
>> >
>> >  We can discuss this issue again among the people who signed up the new
>> mailing list.
>>
>>  There are quite a few people, like myself, who are interested in *all*
>> nova development.  Signing up for a new mailing list for every new
>> development effort would be a nightmare to keep up with.  I *really,
>> really* think the list should be dropped and all discussions should be
>> on openstack-dev.
>>
>
> I agree.
>
>
>> --
>> Russell Bryant
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Gary Kotton]

On 10/29/2012 02:59 AM, Asher Newcomer wrote:

+1

On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Russell Bryant > wrote:


On 10/28/2012 08:19 PM, David Kang wrote:
>
>  I agree that subject prefix is a way.
> There are pros and cons of either approach.
> However, when I asked a few of the people who showed interest in
bare-metal discussion,
> a new mailing list was preferred by them.
> And we thought a separate mailing list makes people easier to
participate and to manage the discussion.
>
>  We can discuss this issue again among the people who signed up
the new mailing list.

There are quite a few people, like myself, who are interested in *all*
nova development.  Signing up for a new mailing list for every new
development effort would be a nightmare to keep up with.  I *really,
really* think the list should be dropped and all discussions should be
on openstack-dev.



I agree.



--
Russell Bryant

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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Atul Jha]

+1

From: openstack-bounces+atul.jha=csscorp@lists.launchpad.net 
[openstack-bounces+atul.jha=csscorp@lists.launchpad.net] on behalf of Asher 
Newcomer [asher...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 6:29 AM
To: Russell Bryant
Cc: Thierry Carrez; openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

+1

On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Russell Bryant 
mailto:rbry...@redhat.com>> wrote:
On 10/28/2012 08:19 PM, David Kang wrote:
>
>  I agree that subject prefix is a way.
> There are pros and cons of either approach.
> However, when I asked a few of the people who showed interest in bare-metal 
> discussion,
> a new mailing list was preferred by them.
> And we thought a separate mailing list makes people easier to participate and 
> to manage the discussion.
>
>  We can discuss this issue again among the people who signed up the new 
> mailing list.

There are quite a few people, like myself, who are interested in *all*
nova development.  Signing up for a new mailing list for every new
development effort would be a nightmare to keep up with.  I *really,
really* think the list should be dropped and all discussions should be
on openstack-dev.

--
Russell Bryant

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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Asher Newcomer]

+1

On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Russell Bryant  wrote:

> On 10/28/2012 08:19 PM, David Kang wrote:
> >
> >  I agree that subject prefix is a way.
> > There are pros and cons of either approach.
> > However, when I asked a few of the people who showed interest in
> bare-metal discussion,
> > a new mailing list was preferred by them.
> > And we thought a separate mailing list makes people easier to
> participate and to manage the discussion.
> >
> >  We can discuss this issue again among the people who signed up the new
> mailing list.
>
> There are quite a few people, like myself, who are interested in *all*
> nova development.  Signing up for a new mailing list for every new
> development effort would be a nightmare to keep up with.  I *really,
> really* think the list should be dropped and all discussions should be
> on openstack-dev.
>
> --
> Russell Bryant
>
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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Russell Bryant]

On 10/28/2012 08:19 PM, David Kang wrote:
> 
>  I agree that subject prefix is a way.
> There are pros and cons of either approach.
> However, when I asked a few of the people who showed interest in bare-metal 
> discussion,
> a new mailing list was preferred by them.
> And we thought a separate mailing list makes people easier to participate and 
> to manage the discussion.
> 
>  We can discuss this issue again among the people who signed up the new 
> mailing list.

There are quite a few people, like myself, who are interested in *all*
nova development.  Signing up for a new mailing list for every new
development effort would be a nightmare to keep up with.  I *really,
really* think the list should be dropped and all discussions should be
on openstack-dev.

-- 
Russell Bryant

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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[David Kang]

 I agree that subject prefix is a way.
There are pros and cons of either approach.
However, when I asked a few of the people who showed interest in bare-metal 
discussion,
a new mailing list was preferred by them.
And we thought a separate mailing list makes people easier to participate and 
to manage the discussion.

 We can discuss this issue again among the people who signed up the new mailing 
list.

 Thanks,
 David
--
Dr. Dong-In "David" Kang
Computer Scientist
USC/ISI

- Original Message -
> David Kang wrote:
> >
> >  Hello all,
> >
> >  An openstack mailing list is created for the discussion of
> >  bare-metal provisioning.
> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-baremetal
> >
> >  Please join it if you are interested in participating the
> >  dicussion/collaboration
> > of bare-metal provisioning.
> 
> Hmm, any particular reason why you're not having those discussions on
> the development mailing-list instead ? That sounds a totally
> appropriate
> topic for that list... and the overlap between the two groups sounds
> pretty complete (B totally included in A).
> 
> I would prefer if we didn't multiply the sublists for development
> subtopics and if we didn't force developers to subscribe to multiple
> lists just to keep informed on design discussions. That will avoid the
> subgroup coming up with a design that will be rejected by the larger
> group once it is submitted there.
> 
> Why not use a subject prefix instead ? Like [baremetal] ?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack
> 
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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Russell Bryant]

On 10/28/2012 07:01 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> David Kang wrote:
>>
>>  Hello all,
>>
>>  An openstack mailing list is created for the discussion of bare-metal 
>> provisioning.
>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-baremetal
>>
>>  Please join it if you are interested in participating the 
>> dicussion/collaboration
>> of bare-metal provisioning.
> 
> Hmm, any particular reason why you're not having those discussions on
> the development mailing-list instead ? That sounds a totally appropriate
> topic for that list... and the overlap between the two groups sounds
> pretty complete (B totally included in A).
> 
> I would prefer if we didn't multiply the sublists for development
> subtopics and if we didn't force developers to subscribe to multiple
> lists just to keep informed on design discussions. That will avoid the
> subgroup coming up with a design that will be rejected by the larger
> group once it is submitted there.
> 
> Why not use a subject prefix instead ? Like [baremetal] ?

A huge +1.

-- 
Russell Bryant

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Re: [Openstack] new mailing list for bare-metal provisioning

[Thierry Carrez]

David Kang wrote:
> 
>  Hello all,
> 
>  An openstack mailing list is created for the discussion of bare-metal 
> provisioning.
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-baremetal
> 
>  Please join it if you are interested in participating the 
> dicussion/collaboration
> of bare-metal provisioning.

Hmm, any particular reason why you're not having those discussions on
the development mailing-list instead ? That sounds a totally appropriate
topic for that list... and the overlap between the two groups sounds
pretty complete (B totally included in A).

I would prefer if we didn't multiply the sublists for development
subtopics and if we didn't force developers to subscribe to multiple
lists just to keep informed on design discussions. That will avoid the
subgroup coming up with a design that will be rejected by the larger
group once it is submitted there.

Why not use a subject prefix instead ? Like [baremetal] ?

Regards,

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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