Re: [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 2018-08-31 14:02:23 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: [...] > I'm coming from the time when OpenStack had a list on launchpad > where everything was mixed. We did the split because it was really > annoying to have everything mixed. [...] These days (just running stats for this calendar year) we've been averaging 4 messages a day on the general openstack@lists.o.o ML, so if it's volume you're worried about most of it would be the current -operators and -dev ML discussions anyway (many of which are general questions from users already, because as you also pointed out we don't usually tell them to take their questions elsewhere any more). -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: PGP signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
Jeremy Stanley wrote: [...] The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other four. [...] Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;) As someone who just had to process a dozen of ML moderation requests about non-member posting to lists due to replies to a cross-posted topic, I wholeheartedly support the list merging :) -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 2018-08-30 12:57:31 -0600 (-0600), Chris Friesen wrote: [...] > Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list? That > could be a busy list for someone who's just asking a simple usage > question. A counterargument though... projecting the number of unique posts to all four lists combined for this year (both based on trending for the past several years and also simply scaling the count of messages this year so far based on how many days are left) comes out roughly equal to the number of posts which were made to the general openstack mailing list in 2012. > Alternately, if we are going to merge everything then why not just > use the "openstack" mailing list since it already exists and there > are references to it on the web. This was an option we discussed in the "One Community" forum session as well. There seemed to be a slight preference for making a new -disscuss list and retiring the old general one. I see either as an potential solution here. > (Or do you want to force people to move to something new to make them > recognize that something has changed?) That was one of the arguments made. Also I believe we have a *lot* of "black hole" subscribers who aren't actually following that list but whose addresses aren't bouncing new posts we send them for any of a number of possible reasons. -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: PGP signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 08/30/2018 08:57 PM, Chris Friesen wrote: > On 08/30/2018 11:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > >> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list >> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other >> four. > > Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list? I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. Thomas __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
I’m strongly in support of merging the lists. > On Aug 30, 2018, at 2:57 PM, Chris Friesen > wrote: > > On 08/30/2018 11:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > >> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list >> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other >> four. > > Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list? That could be a > busy list for someone who's just asking a simple usage question. True, but it would bring more visibility to the developers about troubles that users are having. > > Alternately, if we are going to merge everything then why not just use the > "openstack" mailing list since it already exists and there are references to > it on the web. > > (Or do you want to force people to move to something new to make them > recognize that something has changed?) > > Chris > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 08/30/2018 11:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other four. Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list? That could be a busy list for someone who's just asking a simple usage question. Alternately, if we are going to merge everything then why not just use the "openstack" mailing list since it already exists and there are references to it on the web. (Or do you want to force people to move to something new to make them recognize that something has changed?) Chris __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
I fully support merging the lists proposed, as well as the interop-wg list that Chris Hodge proposed. I look forward to the day when cross posting is no longer a necessary evil. -Julia On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 10:04 AM Jeremy Stanley wrote: > > The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators > mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of > cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to > reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to > one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of > subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to > bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together > into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps > coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing > lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver > at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides: > > 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different > place than many of the people who have the answers to those > questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML > title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users > deeper). > > 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order > of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other > three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap > between them; combining those lists would have been a better > solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be. > > 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is > cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics > that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which > one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the > fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from > participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which > they're subscribed, > > 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of > the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if > not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of > the various cross-posts if these lists were combined. > > The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list > to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other > four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its > software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is > changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates, > distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking > much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet > (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average, > after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to > tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other > participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and > so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the > combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]). > None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of > continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try > to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your > questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera. > > As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about > experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new > features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this > easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in > light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above > hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version > we're currently using. > > Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this > message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;) > > [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community > [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics > -- > Jeremy Stanley > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
Absolutely support merging. Jeremy Stanley wrote: The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides: 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different place than many of the people who have the answers to those questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users deeper). 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap between them; combining those lists would have been a better solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be. 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which they're subscribed, 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of the various cross-posts if these lists were combined. The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates, distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average, after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]). None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera. As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version we're currently using. Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;) [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
[openstack-dev] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides: 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different place than many of the people who have the answers to those questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users deeper). 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap between them; combining those lists would have been a better solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be. 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which they're subscribed, 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of the various cross-posts if these lists were combined. The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates, distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average, after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]). None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera. As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version we're currently using. Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;) [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: PGP signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev