Re: [openstack-dev] [neutron][QoS] service-plugin or not discussion
On 24/4/2015, at 19:42, Armando M. arma...@gmail.com wrote: On 24 April 2015 at 01:47, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo mangel...@redhat.com mailto:mangel...@redhat.com wrote: Hi Armando Salvatore, On 23/4/2015, at 9:30, Salvatore Orlando sorla...@nicira.com mailto:sorla...@nicira.com wrote: On 23 April 2015 at 01:30, Armando M. arma...@gmail.com mailto:arma...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 April 2015 at 06:02, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo mangel...@redhat.com mailto:mangel...@redhat.com wrote: Hi everybody, In the latest QoS meeting, one of the topics was a discussion about how to implement QoS [1] either as in core, or as a service plugin, in, or out-tree. It is really promising that after only two meetings the team is already split! I cannot wait for the API discussion to start ;) We seem to be relatively on the same page about how to model the API, but we need yet to loop in users/operators who have an interest in QoS to make sure they find it usable. [1] My apologies if I was unable to join, the meeting clashed with another one I was supposed to attend. My bad, sorry ;-/ It’s my feeling, and Mathieu’s that it looks more like a core feature, as we’re talking of port properties that we define at high level, and most plugins (QoS capable) may want to implement at dataplane/controlplane level, and also that it’s something requiring a good amount of review. Core is a term which is recently being abused in Neutron... However, I think you mean that it is a feature fairly entangled with the L2 mechanisms, Not only the L2 mechanisms, but the description of ports themselves, in the basic cases we’re just defining how “small” or “big” your port is. In the future we could be saying “UDP ports 5000-6000” have the highest priority on this port, or a minimum bandwidth of 50Mbps…, it’s marked with a IPv6 flow label for hi-prio… or whatever policy we support. that deserves being integrated in what is today the core plugin and in the OVS/LB agents. To this aim I think it's good to make a distinction between the management plane and the control plane implementation. At the management plane you have a few choices: - yet another mixin, so that any plugin can add it and quickly support the API extension at the mgmt layer. I believe we're fairly certain everybody understands mixins are not sustainable anymore and I'm hopeful you are not considering this route. Are you specifically referring to this on every plugin? class Ml2Plugin(db_base_plugin_v2.NeutronDbPluginV2, --- dvr_mac_db.DVRDbMixin, --- external_net_db.External_net_db_mixin, --- sg_db_rpc.SecurityGroupServerRpcMixin, --- agentschedulers_db.DhcpAgentSchedulerDbMixin, --- addr_pair_db.AllowedAddressPairsMixin, I’m quite allergic to mixings, I must admit, but, if it’s not the desired way, why don’t we refactor the way we compose plugins !? (yet more refactors probably would slow us down, …) but… I feel like we’re pushing to overcomplicate the design for a case which is similar to everything else we had before (security groups, port security, allowed address pairs). It feels wrong to have every similar feature done in a different way, even if the current way is not the best one I admit. This attitude led us to the pain we are in now, I think we can no longer afford to keep doing that. Bold goals require bold actions. If we don't step back and figure out a way to extend the existing components without hijacking the current codebase, it would be very difficult to give this effort the priority it deserves. I agree with you, please note my point of “let’s refactor it all into something better”, but refactoring the world and forgetting about new features is not sustainable, so, as you say we may start with new features as we explore better ways to do it. But I believe old extensions should also be equally addressed in the future. I also lack the perspective yet to propose better approaches, I hope I will be able to do it in the future when I explore those areas of neutron. Let’s focus in the API, and the lowest levels of what we’re going to do, and lets resolve everything else at a later time when that’s clear. I start to lean towards a service-plugin implementation as it’s going to be technically much more clean and decoupled. - a service plugin - as suggested by some proposers. The service plugin is fairly easy to implement, and now Armando has provided you with a mechanism to register for callbacks for events in other plugins. This should make the implementation fairly straightforward. This also enables other plugins to implement QoS support. - a ML2 mechanism driver + a ML2 extension driver. From an architectural perspective this would be the preferred solution for a ML2 implementation, but at the same time will
Re: [openstack-dev] [neutron][QoS] service-plugin or not discussion
Hi Armando Salvatore, On 23/4/2015, at 9:30, Salvatore Orlando sorla...@nicira.com wrote: On 23 April 2015 at 01:30, Armando M. arma...@gmail.com mailto:arma...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 April 2015 at 06:02, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo mangel...@redhat.com mailto:mangel...@redhat.com wrote: Hi everybody, In the latest QoS meeting, one of the topics was a discussion about how to implement QoS [1] either as in core, or as a service plugin, in, or out-tree. It is really promising that after only two meetings the team is already split! I cannot wait for the API discussion to start ;) We seem to be relatively on the same page about how to model the API, but we need yet to loop in users/operators who have an interest in QoS to make sure they find it usable. [1] My apologies if I was unable to join, the meeting clashed with another one I was supposed to attend. My bad, sorry ;-/ It’s my feeling, and Mathieu’s that it looks more like a core feature, as we’re talking of port properties that we define at high level, and most plugins (QoS capable) may want to implement at dataplane/controlplane level, and also that it’s something requiring a good amount of review. Core is a term which is recently being abused in Neutron... However, I think you mean that it is a feature fairly entangled with the L2 mechanisms, Not only the L2 mechanisms, but the description of ports themselves, in the basic cases we’re just defining how “small” or “big” your port is. In the future we could be saying “UDP ports 5000-6000” have the highest priority on this port, or a minimum bandwidth of 50Mbps…, it’s marked with a IPv6 flow label for hi-prio… or whatever policy we support. that deserves being integrated in what is today the core plugin and in the OVS/LB agents. To this aim I think it's good to make a distinction between the management plane and the control plane implementation. At the management plane you have a few choices: - yet another mixin, so that any plugin can add it and quickly support the API extension at the mgmt layer. I believe we're fairly certain everybody understands mixins are not sustainable anymore and I'm hopeful you are not considering this route. Are you specifically referring to this on every plugin? class Ml2Plugin(db_base_plugin_v2.NeutronDbPluginV2, --- dvr_mac_db.DVRDbMixin, --- external_net_db.External_net_db_mixin, --- sg_db_rpc.SecurityGroupServerRpcMixin, --- agentschedulers_db.DhcpAgentSchedulerDbMixin, --- addr_pair_db.AllowedAddressPairsMixin, I’m quite allergic to mixings, I must admit, but, if it’s not the desired way, why don’t we refactor the way we compose plugins !? (yet more refactors probably would slow us down, …) but… I feel like we’re pushing to overcomplicate the design for a case which is similar to everything else we had before (security groups, port security, allowed address pairs). It feels wrong to have every similar feature done in a different way, even if the current way is not the best one I admit. - a service plugin - as suggested by some proposers. The service plugin is fairly easy to implement, and now Armando has provided you with a mechanism to register for callbacks for events in other plugins. This should make the implementation fairly straightforward. This also enables other plugins to implement QoS support. - a ML2 mechanism driver + a ML2 extension driver. From an architectural perspective this would be the preferred solution for a ML2 implementation, but at the same time will not provide management level support for non-ML2 plugins. I’m a bit lost of why a a plugin (apart from ML2) could not just declare that it’s implementing the extension, or it’s just that the only way we have to do it right now it’s mixings? why would ML2 avoid it?. In the other hand Irena and Sean were more concerned about having a good separation of concerns (I agree actually with that part), and being able to do quicker iterations on a separate stackforge repo. Perhaps we're trying to address the issue at the wrong time. Once a reasonable agreement has been reached on the data model, and the API, whether we're going with a service plugin or core etc should be an implementation detail. I think the crux of the matter is the data plane integration. From a management and control standpoint it should be fairly trivial to expose/implement the API and business logic via a service plugin and, and some of you suggested, integrate with the core via callbacks. We have an update to the data model to be reviewed if you can have an eye on the last update [1], I’ll correct based on the last comments we received during this week. I’m going to share it broadly on the mail list + operator list, probably with a brief description of how the api / cmdline would look like so we
Re: [openstack-dev] [neutron][QoS] service-plugin or not discussion
On 24 April 2015 at 01:47, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo mangel...@redhat.com wrote: Hi Armando Salvatore, On 23/4/2015, at 9:30, Salvatore Orlando sorla...@nicira.com wrote: On 23 April 2015 at 01:30, Armando M. arma...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 April 2015 at 06:02, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo mangel...@redhat.com wrote: Hi everybody, In the latest QoS meeting, one of the topics was a discussion about how to implement QoS [1] either as in core, or as a service plugin, in, or out-tree. It is really promising that after only two meetings the team is already split! I cannot wait for the API discussion to start ;) We seem to be relatively on the same page about how to model the API, but we need yet to loop in users/operators who have an interest in QoS to make sure they find it usable. [1] My apologies if I was unable to join, the meeting clashed with another one I was supposed to attend. My bad, sorry ;-/ It’s my feeling, and Mathieu’s that it looks more like a core feature, as we’re talking of port properties that we define at high level, and most plugins (QoS capable) may want to implement at dataplane/controlplane level, and also that it’s something requiring a good amount of review. Core is a term which is recently being abused in Neutron... However, I think you mean that it is a feature fairly entangled with the L2 mechanisms, Not only the L2 mechanisms, but the description of ports themselves, in the basic cases we’re just defining how “small” or “big” your port is. In the future we could be saying “UDP ports 5000-6000” have the highest priority on this port, or a minimum bandwidth of 50Mbps…, it’s marked with a IPv6 flow label for hi-prio… or whatever policy we support. that deserves being integrated in what is today the core plugin and in the OVS/LB agents. To this aim I think it's good to make a distinction between the management plane and the control plane implementation. At the management plane you have a few choices: - yet another mixin, so that any plugin can add it and quickly support the API extension at the mgmt layer. I believe we're fairly certain everybody understands mixins are not sustainable anymore and I'm hopeful you are not considering this route. Are you specifically referring to this on every plugin? class Ml2Plugin(db_base_plugin_v2.NeutronDbPluginV2, --- dvr_mac_db.DVRDbMixin, --- external_net_db.External_net_db_mixin, --- sg_db_rpc.SecurityGroupServerRpcMixin, --- agentschedulers_db.DhcpAgentSchedulerDbMixin, --- addr_pair_db.AllowedAddressPairsMixin, I’m quite allergic to mixings, I must admit, but, if it’s not the desired way, why don’t we refactor the way we compose plugins !? (yet more refactors probably would slow us down, …) but… I feel like we’re pushing to overcomplicate the design for a case which is similar to everything else we had before (security groups, port security, allowed address pairs). It feels wrong to have every similar feature done in a different way, even if the current way is not the best one I admit. This attitude led us to the pain we are in now, I think we can no longer afford to keep doing that. Bold goals require bold actions. If we don't step back and figure out a way to extend the existing components without hijacking the current codebase, it would be very difficult to give this effort the priority it deserves. - a service plugin - as suggested by some proposers. The service plugin is fairly easy to implement, and now Armando has provided you with a mechanism to register for callbacks for events in other plugins. This should make the implementation fairly straightforward. This also enables other plugins to implement QoS support. - a ML2 mechanism driver + a ML2 extension driver. From an architectural perspective this would be the preferred solution for a ML2 implementation, but at the same time will not provide management level support for non-ML2 plugins. I’m a bit lost of why a a plugin (apart from ML2) could not just declare that it’s implementing the extension, or it’s just that the only way we have to do it right now it’s mixings? why would ML2 avoid it?. In the other hand Irena and Sean were more concerned about having a good separation of concerns (I agree actually with that part), and being able to do quicker iterations on a separate stackforge repo. Perhaps we're trying to address the issue at the wrong time. Once a reasonable agreement has been reached on the data model, and the API, whether we're going with a service plugin or core etc should be an implementation detail. I think the crux of the matter is the data plane integration. From a management and control standpoint it should be fairly trivial to expose/implement the API and business logic via a service plugin and, and some of you suggested, integrate with the core
Re: [openstack-dev] [neutron][QoS] service-plugin or not discussion
On 23 April 2015 at 01:30, Armando M. arma...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 April 2015 at 06:02, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo mangel...@redhat.com wrote: Hi everybody, In the latest QoS meeting, one of the topics was a discussion about how to implement QoS [1] either as in core, or as a service plugin, in, or out-tree. It is really promising that after only two meetings the team is already split! I cannot wait for the API discussion to start ;) My apologies if I was unable to join, the meeting clashed with another one I was supposed to attend. It’s my feeling, and Mathieu’s that it looks more like a core feature, as we’re talking of port properties that we define at high level, and most plugins (QoS capable) may want to implement at dataplane/controlplane level, and also that it’s something requiring a good amount of review. Core is a term which is recently being abused in Neutron... However, I think you mean that it is a feature fairly entangled with the L2 mechanisms that deserves being integrated in what is today the core plugin and in the OVS/LB agents. To this aim I think it's good to make a distinction between the management plane and the control plane implementation. At the management plane you have a few choices: - yet another mixin, so that any plugin can add it and quickly support the API extension at the mgmt layer. I believe we're fairly certain everybody understands mixins are not sustainable anymore and I'm hopeful you are not considering this route. - a service plugin - as suggested by some proposers. The service plugin is fairly easy to implement, and now Armando has provided you with a mechanism to register for callbacks for events in other plugins. This should make the implementation fairly straightforward. This also enables other plugins to implement QoS support. - a ML2 mechanism driver + a ML2 extension driver. From an architectural perspective this would be the preferred solution for a ML2 implementation, but at the same time will not provide management level support for non-ML2 plugins. In the other hand Irena and Sean were more concerned about having a good separation of concerns (I agree actually with that part), and being able to do quicker iterations on a separate stackforge repo. Perhaps we're trying to address the issue at the wrong time. Once a reasonable agreement has been reached on the data model, and the API, whether we're going with a service plugin or core etc should be an implementation detail. I think the crux of the matter is the data plane integration. From a management and control standpoint it should be fairly trivial to expose/implement the API and business logic via a service plugin and, and some of you suggested, integrate with the core via callbacks. However, I am pretty sure there will be preliminary work necessary to integrate the server with the agent fabric (when there is one) so that is no longer a pain. Extending what the agent can do the way we did so far (e.g. by adding extra payloads/messages, mixin etc) is not sustainable, and incredibly brittle. In my opinion the interesting part for an architectural decision here is the control plane support for the reference implementation. Adding more stuff to the OVS/LB agents might lead to an increase in technical debt. On the other hand, adding a new QoS agent might lead to further complexity - another loose bit to keep in sync with the rest, and operators usually are not happy about having to manage the lifecycle of another independent component. And as Armando say, you also need to consider what changes you need to the RPC interface. Without that information it is hard to make a call, and therefore I agree with Armando that there are not yet enough elements to make a decision - let's wait at least for a high level view of system architecture. Since we didn’t seem to find an agreement, and I’m probably missing some details, I’d like to loop in our core developers and PTL to provide an opinion on this. Core developers and the PTL do not necessarily have a better opinion... instead in many cases they have a worse one! By the way, if you go the stackforge route, then you can apply for becoming an openstack project and one of you can become PTL! Isn't that wonderful? Who doesn't want to be PTL these days? [1] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_qos/2015/neutron_qos.2015-04-21-14.03.log.html#l-192 Thanks for your patience, Miguel Angel Ajo __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe:
[openstack-dev] [neutron][QoS] service-plugin or not discussion
Hi everybody, In the latest QoS meeting, one of the topics was a discussion about how to implement QoS [1] either as in core, or as a service plugin, in, or out-tree. It’s my feeling, and Mathieu’s that it looks more like a core feature, as we’re talking of port properties that we define at high level, and most plugins (QoS capable) may want to implement at dataplane/controlplane level, and also that it’s something requiring a good amount of review. In the other hand Irena and Sean were more concerned about having a good separation of concerns (I agree actually with that part), and being able to do quicker iterations on a separate stackforge repo. Since we didn’t seem to find an agreement, and I’m probably missing some details, I’d like to loop in our core developers and PTL to provide an opinion on this. [1] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_qos/2015/neutron_qos.2015-04-21-14.03.log.html#l-192 Thanks for your patience, Miguel Angel Ajo __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [neutron][QoS] service-plugin or not discussion
On 22 April 2015 at 06:02, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo mangel...@redhat.com wrote: Hi everybody, In the latest QoS meeting, one of the topics was a discussion about how to implement QoS [1] either as in core, or as a service plugin, in, or out-tree. My apologies if I was unable to join, the meeting clashed with another one I was supposed to attend. It’s my feeling, and Mathieu’s that it looks more like a core feature, as we’re talking of port properties that we define at high level, and most plugins (QoS capable) may want to implement at dataplane/controlplane level, and also that it’s something requiring a good amount of review. In the other hand Irena and Sean were more concerned about having a good separation of concerns (I agree actually with that part), and being able to do quicker iterations on a separate stackforge repo. Perhaps we're trying to address the issue at the wrong time. Once a reasonable agreement has been reached on the data model, and the API, whether we're going with a service plugin or core etc should be an implementation detail. I think the crux of the matter is the data plane integration. From a management and control standpoint it should be fairly trivial to expose/implement the API and business logic via a service plugin and, and some of you suggested, integrate with the core via callbacks. However, I am pretty sure there will be preliminary work necessary to integrate the server with the agent fabric (when there is one) so that is no longer a pain. Extending what the agent can do the way we did so far (e.g. by adding extra payloads/messages, mixin etc) is not sustainable, and incredibly brittle. Since we didn’t seem to find an agreement, and I’m probably missing some details, I’d like to loop in our core developers and PTL to provide an opinion on this. [1] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_qos/2015/neutron_qos.2015-04-21-14.03.log.html#l-192 Thanks for your patience, Miguel Angel Ajo __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
