Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Thierry Carrez]

Tony Breeds wrote:
> I feel like there'is a tension here that we need to work through
> 
> is yaml2ical a library for others (outside OpenStack) to use?  If it is and
> *they* want monthly meetings then I really think we shoudl include them.  The
> conflict deection isn't *that* hard and the need for other recurrence types
> would tidy the code.  So form this POV I htink we shoudl certainly allow for
> this.

I think I heard of one other group using yaml2ical... But the request to
better support infrequent meetings is coming from within OpenStack at
this stage.

> Within OpenStack, we have several groups that want Monthly meetings so we
> shoudl work out a way to support that.
> 
> What we do right now is schedule a weekly meeting and then add a description 
> to
> say "we only hold this on thr nth $day" [1]
> 
> We could create a 4weekly which would reduce the wastage.

It might be our best bet.

> I'm also open to
> creating #openstack-meeting-monthly and just moving all the monthly meetings
> there.  I feel like we get asked for a solution to this often enough that we
> need to define an answer.

That could work too, but somehow would encourage teams to only meet
every month (since that is where it will be easier to schedule a
meeting) which is not necessarily a best practice in short development
cycles like in OpenStack.

My preference would be to create a "4weekly" recurrence. The only
drawback I see is that it's not trivial to determine when the next
meeting is.

Blair wrote:
> At least for the scientific-wg, what we're actually looking for is
> 4weekly rather than monthly. I'd be surprised if there's a big call
> for monthly given peoples calendars generally work on a weekly basis
> for other things...?

Maybe we should engage with other currently "monthly" meeting chairs and
ask them how happy they would be with a 4weekly ? Because if they don't
plan to switch to it, there is little point in pursuing that option ?

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)



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Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Blair Bethwaite]

At least for the scientific-wg, what we're actually looking for is
4weekly rather than monthly. I'd be surprised if there's a big call
for monthly given peoples calendars generally work on a weekly basis
for other things...?

Cheers,
Blair

On 16 November 2016 at 10:40, Tony Breeds  wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 03:10:04PM +0100, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>> Blair Bethwaite wrote:
>> > On 10 Nov 2016 8:56 PM, "Thierry Carrez" > > > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The issue with this solution is that any "monthly" slot ends up being
>> >> exactly the same as a "weekly" slot: you can't schedule any
>> >> weekly/biweekly meetings at the same time and location. Monthly meetings
>> >> are therefore paradoxically more wasteful than biweekly meetings, and
>> >> there is therefore little point in adding them to the software since you
>> >> can emulate them with "weekly" bookings and just skip most meetings.
>> >
>> > That seems to be based on the assumption that other groups wouldn't want
>> > monthly scheduling?
>> >
>> > Also, I'd suggest we avoid "monthly" altogether and instead use
>> > "4weekly", that would seem to allow biweekly meetings to use the same
>> > day on the alternate (odd/even) week.
>>
>> 4weekly sounds like a good idea! Less conflicts ftw.
>>
>> If we really really want monthly stuff, we could create a channel
>> dedicated to monthly meetings, to avoid creating conflicts on every
>> channels.
>
> I feel like there'is a tension here that we need to work through
>
> is yaml2ical a library for others (outside OpenStack) to use?  If it is and
> *they* want monthly meetings then I really think we shoudl include them.  The
> conflict deection isn't *that* hard and the need for other recurrence types
> would tidy the code.  So form this POV I htink we shoudl certainly allow for
> this.
>
> Within OpenStack, we have several groups that want Monthly meetings so we
> shoudl work out a way to support that.
>
> What we do right now is schedule a weekly meeting and then add a description 
> to
> say "we only hold this on thr nth $day" [1]
>
> We could create a 4weekly which would reduce the wastage.  I'm also open to
> creating #openstack-meeting-monthly and just moving all the monthly meetings
> there.  I feel like we get asked for a solution to this often enough that we
> need to define an answer.
>
> Yours Tony.
>
> [1] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Documentation_User_Guides_Team_Meeting



-- 
Cheers,
~Blairo

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Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Tony Breeds]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 03:10:04PM +0100, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Blair Bethwaite wrote:
> > On 10 Nov 2016 8:56 PM, "Thierry Carrez"  > > wrote:
> >>
> >> The issue with this solution is that any "monthly" slot ends up being
> >> exactly the same as a "weekly" slot: you can't schedule any
> >> weekly/biweekly meetings at the same time and location. Monthly meetings
> >> are therefore paradoxically more wasteful than biweekly meetings, and
> >> there is therefore little point in adding them to the software since you
> >> can emulate them with "weekly" bookings and just skip most meetings.
> > 
> > That seems to be based on the assumption that other groups wouldn't want
> > monthly scheduling?
> > 
> > Also, I'd suggest we avoid "monthly" altogether and instead use
> > "4weekly", that would seem to allow biweekly meetings to use the same
> > day on the alternate (odd/even) week.
> 
> 4weekly sounds like a good idea! Less conflicts ftw.
> 
> If we really really want monthly stuff, we could create a channel
> dedicated to monthly meetings, to avoid creating conflicts on every
> channels.

I feel like there'is a tension here that we need to work through

is yaml2ical a library for others (outside OpenStack) to use?  If it is and
*they* want monthly meetings then I really think we shoudl include them.  The
conflict deection isn't *that* hard and the need for other recurrence types
would tidy the code.  So form this POV I htink we shoudl certainly allow for
this.

Within OpenStack, we have several groups that want Monthly meetings so we
shoudl work out a way to support that.

What we do right now is schedule a weekly meeting and then add a description to
say "we only hold this on thr nth $day" [1]

We could create a 4weekly which would reduce the wastage.  I'm also open to
creating #openstack-meeting-monthly and just moving all the monthly meetings
there.  I feel like we get asked for a solution to this often enough that we
need to define an answer.

Yours Tony.

[1] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Documentation_User_Guides_Team_Meeting


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Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Thierry Carrez]

Blair Bethwaite wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2016 8:56 PM, "Thierry Carrez"  > wrote:
>>
>> The issue with this solution is that any "monthly" slot ends up being
>> exactly the same as a "weekly" slot: you can't schedule any
>> weekly/biweekly meetings at the same time and location. Monthly meetings
>> are therefore paradoxically more wasteful than biweekly meetings, and
>> there is therefore little point in adding them to the software since you
>> can emulate them with "weekly" bookings and just skip most meetings.
> 
> That seems to be based on the assumption that other groups wouldn't want
> monthly scheduling?
> 
> Also, I'd suggest we avoid "monthly" altogether and instead use
> "4weekly", that would seem to allow biweekly meetings to use the same
> day on the alternate (odd/even) week.

4weekly sounds like a good idea! Less conflicts ftw.

If we really really want monthly stuff, we could create a channel
dedicated to monthly meetings, to avoid creating conflicts on every
channels.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Blair Bethwaite]

On 10 Nov 2016 8:56 PM, "Thierry Carrez"  wrote:
>
> The issue with this solution is that any "monthly" slot ends up being
> exactly the same as a "weekly" slot: you can't schedule any
> weekly/biweekly meetings at the same time and location. Monthly meetings
> are therefore paradoxically more wasteful than biweekly meetings, and
> there is therefore little point in adding them to the software since you
> can emulate them with "weekly" bookings and just skip most meetings.

That seems to be based on the assumption that other groups wouldn't want
monthly scheduling?

Also, I'd suggest we avoid "monthly" altogether and instead use "4weekly",
that would seem to allow biweekly meetings to use the same day on the
alternate (odd/even) week.

Cheers,
Blair
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Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Ian Y. Choi]

Thierry Carrez wrote on 11/10/2016 6:52 PM:

Tony Breeds wrote:

On Wed, Nov 09, 2016 at 10:56:38AM +0100, Thierry Carrez wrote:


Our scheduling system currently only supports biweekly or weekly
meetings. We don't currently support monthly or triweekly meetings
(mostly to avoid having to detect complex conflicts with biweekly meetings).

I guess we could evolve openstack-infra/yaml2ical to detect more complex
conflicts. We'd gain in scheduling flexibility, but lose in our ability
to pack the schedule tightly and make it pretty difficult to find empty
slots manually.

Yeah I think we should add monthly (which would more-or-less cover triweekly)
In that you could have a monthly-1st, monthly-3rd and monthly-4th events.
---
   - time:   '1400'
 day:Monday
 irc:openstack-meeting
 frequency:  monthly-1st # 1400 on the 1st Monday of the month
   - time:   '2100'
 day:Thursday
 irc:openstack-meeting-alt
 frequency:  monthly-3rd # 2100 on the 3rd Thursday of the month
   - time:   '0930'
 day:Thursday
 irc:openstack-meeting-alt
 frequency:  monthly-4th # 0930 on the 4th Thursday of the month
---

It isn't quite a tri-weekly rotation but may be close enough.

The issue with this solution is that any "monthly" slot ends up being
exactly the same as a "weekly" slot: you can't schedule any
weekly/biweekly meetings at the same time and location. Monthly meetings
are therefore paradoxically more wasteful than biweekly meetings, and
there is therefore little point in adding them to the software since you
can emulate them with "weekly" bookings and just skip most meetings.

Instead of monthly-1st/2nd/3rd/4th we could have
monthly-1st-odd/1st-even/2nd-odd/2nd-even. That would make them slightly
less wasteful (monthly-*-odd things do not conflict with biweekly-even
things). But they would be pretty complex to interpret and then why not
just use biweekly-* things and skip one every two meetings ?


Of course adding this would mean adding tools to grok the data ad see if a
meeting slot is open

search-open --day Monday --time 1000 --freq weekly ?

Which could list the available irc channels or nothing.  Later it could be
extended to list "nearby options"

We'll probably have to add a meeting channel as well, since that will
create wasted slots (places where you can't put a weekly or biweekly
meeting).

+1 for adding a meeting channel :)

At first, I had similar idea with Tony: supporting 
monthly-1st/2nd/3rd/4th would be needed
in openstack-infra/yaml2cal, and I started to work for the support like 
https://review.openstack.org/#/c/395762/ .


But after reading ttx's comments, now I am more inclined to substitute 
with weekly or bi-weekly instead.


One of my small concern is that ICS file will also occupy all meeting 
time every week or bi-week.
To solve this concern and also to provide exact information, IMO 
documenting into description
for skipping meetings in some weeks might be needed like 
https://review.openstack.org/#/c/394719/ .



With many thanks,

/Ian




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Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Thierry Carrez]

Tony Breeds wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 09, 2016 at 10:56:38AM +0100, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> 
>> Our scheduling system currently only supports biweekly or weekly
>> meetings. We don't currently support monthly or triweekly meetings
>> (mostly to avoid having to detect complex conflicts with biweekly meetings).
>>
>> I guess we could evolve openstack-infra/yaml2ical to detect more complex
>> conflicts. We'd gain in scheduling flexibility, but lose in our ability
>> to pack the schedule tightly and make it pretty difficult to find empty
>> slots manually.
> 
> Yeah I think we should add monthly (which would more-or-less cover triweekly)
> In that you could have a monthly-1st, monthly-3rd and monthly-4th events.
> ---
>   - time:   '1400'
> day:Monday
> irc:openstack-meeting
> frequency:  monthly-1st # 1400 on the 1st Monday of the month
>   - time:   '2100'
> day:Thursday
> irc:openstack-meeting-alt
> frequency:  monthly-3rd # 2100 on the 3rd Thursday of the 
> month
>   - time:   '0930'
> day:Thursday
> irc:openstack-meeting-alt
> frequency:  monthly-4th # 0930 on the 4th Thursday of the 
> month
> ---
> 
> It isn't quite a tri-weekly rotation but may be close enough.

The issue with this solution is that any "monthly" slot ends up being
exactly the same as a "weekly" slot: you can't schedule any
weekly/biweekly meetings at the same time and location. Monthly meetings
are therefore paradoxically more wasteful than biweekly meetings, and
there is therefore little point in adding them to the software since you
can emulate them with "weekly" bookings and just skip most meetings.

Instead of monthly-1st/2nd/3rd/4th we could have
monthly-1st-odd/1st-even/2nd-odd/2nd-even. That would make them slightly
less wasteful (monthly-*-odd things do not conflict with biweekly-even
things). But they would be pretty complex to interpret and then why not
just use biweekly-* things and skip one every two meetings ?

> Of course adding this would mean adding tools to grok the data ad see if a
> meeting slot is open
> 
> search-open --day Monday --time 1000 --freq weekly ?
> 
> Which could list the available irc channels or nothing.  Later it could be
> extended to list "nearby options"

We'll probably have to add a meeting channel as well, since that will
create wasted slots (places where you can't put a weekly or biweekly
meeting).

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)



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Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Tony Breeds]

On Wed, Nov 09, 2016 at 10:56:38AM +0100, Thierry Carrez wrote:

> Our scheduling system currently only supports biweekly or weekly
> meetings. We don't currently support monthly or triweekly meetings
> (mostly to avoid having to detect complex conflicts with biweekly meetings).
> 
> I guess we could evolve openstack-infra/yaml2ical to detect more complex
> conflicts. We'd gain in scheduling flexibility, but lose in our ability
> to pack the schedule tightly and make it pretty difficult to find empty
> slots manually.

Yeah I think we should add monthly (which would more-or-less cover triweekly)
In that you could have a monthly-1st, monthly-3rd and monthly-4th events.
---
  - time:   '1400'
day:Monday
irc:openstack-meeting
frequency:  monthly-1st # 1400 on the 1st Monday of the month
  - time:   '2100'
day:Thursday
irc:openstack-meeting-alt
frequency:  monthly-3rd # 2100 on the 3rd Thursday of the month
  - time:   '0930'
day:Thursday
irc:openstack-meeting-alt
frequency:  monthly-4th # 0930 on the 4th Thursday of the month
---

It isn't quite a tri-weekly rotation but may be close enough.

Of course adding this would mean adding tools to grok the data ad see if a
meeting slot is open

search-open --day Monday --time 1000 --freq weekly ?

Which could list the available irc channels or nothing.  Later it could be
extended to list "nearby options"

Yours Tony.


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Re: [OpenStack-Infra] Tri-Weekly IRC meetings?

[Thierry Carrez]

Stig Telfer wrote:
> In the Scientific WG we now have 3 co-chairs - one in Australia, one in the 
> USA and one in the UK.  We are interested in arranging IRC meetings in 3 time 
> zones, ie tri-weekly time slots.  Is that achievable?
> 
> One potential issue I can see is that scheduling a tri-weekly slot would 
> conflict with other meetings on a bi-weekly spacing.
> 
> Any thoughts on doing this?  I assume it isn’t the first time this request 
> has come up.

Our scheduling system currently only supports biweekly or weekly
meetings. We don't currently support monthly or triweekly meetings
(mostly to avoid having to detect complex conflicts with biweekly meetings).

I guess we could evolve openstack-infra/yaml2ical to detect more complex
conflicts. We'd gain in scheduling flexibility, but lose in our ability
to pack the schedule tightly and make it pretty difficult to find empty
slots manually.

Any chance you could express what you are after using only biweekly
meetings ? Like schedule odd Mondays, odd Thursdays and even Tuesdays ?

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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