Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [openstack-dev] [goals][tc][ptl][uc] starting goal selection for T series

[Mathieu Gagné]

+1 Yes please!

--
Mathieu

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 2:56 PM Tim Bell  wrote:
>
>
> Doug,
>
> Thanks for raising this. I'd like to highlight the goal "Finish moving legacy 
> python-*client CLIs to python-openstackclient" from the etherpad and propose 
> this for a T/U series goal.
>
> To give it some context and the motivation:
>
> At CERN, we have more than 3000 users of the OpenStack cloud. We write an 
> extensive end user facing documentation which explains how to use the 
> OpenStack along with CERN specific features (such as workflows for requesting 
> projects/quotas/etc.).
>
> One regular problem we come across is that the end user experience is 
> inconsistent. In some cases, we find projects which are not covered by the 
> unified OpenStack client (e.g. Manila). In other cases, there are subsets of 
> the function which require the native project client.
>
> I would strongly support a goal which targets
>
> - All new projects should have the end user facing functionality fully 
> exposed via the unified client
> - Existing projects should aim to close the gap within 'N' cycles (N to be 
> defined)
> - Many administrator actions would also benefit from integration (reader 
> roles are end users too so list and show need to be covered too)
> - Users should be able to use a single openrc for all interactions with the 
> cloud (e.g. not switch between password for some CLIs and Kerberos for OSC)
>
> The end user perception of a solution will be greatly enhanced by a single 
> command line tool with consistent syntax and authentication framework.
>
> It may be a multi-release goal but it would really benefit the cloud 
> consumers and I feel that goals should include this audience also.
>
> Tim
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Hellmann 
> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" 
> 
> Date: Wednesday, 26 September 2018 at 18:00
> To: openstack-dev , openstack-operators 
> , openstack-sigs 
> 
> Subject: [openstack-dev] [goals][tc][ptl][uc] starting goal selection for T   
>   series
>
> It's time to start thinking about community-wide goals for the T series.
>
> We use community-wide goals to achieve visible common changes, push for
> basic levels of consistency and user experience, and efficiently improve
> certain areas where technical debt payments have become too high -
> across all OpenStack projects. Community input is important to ensure
> that the TC makes good decisions about the goals. We need to consider
> the timing, cycle length, priority, and feasibility of the suggested
> goals.
>
> If you are interested in proposing a goal, please make sure that before
> the summit it is described in the tracking etherpad [1] and that you
> have started a mailing list thread on the openstack-dev list about the
> proposal so that everyone in the forum session [2] has an opportunity to
> consider the details.  The forum session is only one step in the
> selection process. See [3] for more details.
>
> Doug
>
> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/community-goals
> [2] https://www.openstack.org/summit/berlin-2018/vote-for-speakers#/22814
> [3] https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/index.html
>
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Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [openstack-dev] [goals][tc][ptl][uc] starting goal selection for T series

[Tom Barron]

On 26/09/18 18:55 +, Tim Bell wrote:


Doug,

Thanks for raising this. I'd like to highlight the goal "Finish moving legacy 
python-*client CLIs to python-openstackclient" from the etherpad and propose this 
for a T/U series goal.

To give it some context and the motivation:

At CERN, we have more than 3000 users of the OpenStack cloud. We write an 
extensive end user facing documentation which explains how to use the OpenStack 
along with CERN specific features (such as workflows for requesting 
projects/quotas/etc.).

One regular problem we come across is that the end user experience is 
inconsistent. In some cases, we find projects which are not covered by the 
unified OpenStack client (e.g. Manila).


Tim,

First, I endorse this goal.

That said, lack of coverage of Manila in the OpenStack client was 
articulated as a need (by CERN and others) during the Vancouver Forum.


At the recent Manila PTG we set addressing this technical debt as a 
Stein cycle goal, as well as OpenStack SDK integration for Manila.


-- Tom Barron (tbarron)


In other cases, there are subsets of the function which require the native 
project client.

I would strongly support a goal which targets

- All new projects should have the end user facing functionality fully exposed 
via the unified client
- Existing projects should aim to close the gap within 'N' cycles (N to be 
defined)
- Many administrator actions would also benefit from integration (reader roles 
are end users too so list and show need to be covered too)
- Users should be able to use a single openrc for all interactions with the 
cloud (e.g. not switch between password for some CLIs and Kerberos for OSC)

The end user perception of a solution will be greatly enhanced by a single 
command line tool with consistent syntax and authentication framework.

It may be a multi-release goal but it would really benefit the cloud consumers 
and I feel that goals should include this audience also.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: Doug Hellmann 
Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" 

Date: Wednesday, 26 September 2018 at 18:00
To: openstack-dev , openstack-operators 
, openstack-sigs 

Subject: [openstack-dev] [goals][tc][ptl][uc] starting goal selection for T 
series

   It's time to start thinking about community-wide goals for the T series.

   We use community-wide goals to achieve visible common changes, push for
   basic levels of consistency and user experience, and efficiently improve
   certain areas where technical debt payments have become too high -
   across all OpenStack projects. Community input is important to ensure
   that the TC makes good decisions about the goals. We need to consider
   the timing, cycle length, priority, and feasibility of the suggested
   goals.

   If you are interested in proposing a goal, please make sure that before
   the summit it is described in the tracking etherpad [1] and that you
   have started a mailing list thread on the openstack-dev list about the
   proposal so that everyone in the forum session [2] has an opportunity to
   consider the details.  The forum session is only one step in the
   selection process. See [3] for more details.

   Doug

   [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/community-goals
   [2] https://www.openstack.org/summit/berlin-2018/vote-for-speakers#/22814
   [3] https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/index.html

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Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [openstack-dev] [goals][tc][ptl][uc] starting goal selection for T series

[Rochelle Grober]

Oh, very definitely +1000



--
Rochelle Grober Rochelle Grober
M: +1-6508889722(preferred)
E: rochelle.gro...@huawei.com
2012实验室-硅谷研究所技术规划及合作部
2012 Laboratories-Silicon Valley Technology Planning & 
Cooperation,Silicon Valley Research Center
From:Mathieu Gagné
To:openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org,
Cc:OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions),OpenStack 
Operators,
Date:2018-09-26 12:41:24
Subject:Re: [Openstack-sigs] [openstack-dev] [goals][tc][ptl][uc] starting goal 
selection for T series

+1 Yes please!

--
Mathieu

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 2:56 PM Tim Bell  wrote:
>
>
> Doug,
>
> Thanks for raising this. I'd like to highlight the goal "Finish moving legacy 
> python-*client CLIs to python-openstackclient" from the etherpad and propose 
> this for a T/U series goal.
>
> To give it some context and the motivation:
>
> At CERN, we have more than 3000 users of the OpenStack cloud. We write an 
> extensive end user facing documentation which explains how to use the 
> OpenStack along with CERN specific features (such as workflows for requesting 
> projects/quotas/etc.).
>
> One regular problem we come across is that the end user experience is 
> inconsistent. In some cases, we find projects which are not covered by the 
> unified OpenStack client (e.g. Manila). In other cases, there are subsets of 
> the function which require the native project client.
>
> I would strongly support a goal which targets
>
> - All new projects should have the end user facing functionality fully 
> exposed via the unified client
> - Existing projects should aim to close the gap within 'N' cycles (N to be 
> defined)
> - Many administrator actions would also benefit from integration (reader 
> roles are end users too so list and show need to be covered too)
> - Users should be able to use a single openrc for all interactions with the 
> cloud (e.g. not switch between password for some CLIs and Kerberos for OSC)
>
> The end user perception of a solution will be greatly enhanced by a single 
> command line tool with consistent syntax and authentication framework.
>
> It may be a multi-release goal but it would really benefit the cloud 
> consumers and I feel that goals should include this audience also.
>
> Tim
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Hellmann 
> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" 
> 
> Date: Wednesday, 26 September 2018 at 18:00
> To: openstack-dev , openstack-operators 
> , openstack-sigs 
> 
> Subject: [openstack-dev] [goals][tc][ptl][uc] starting goal selection for T   
>   series
>
> It's time to start thinking about community-wide goals for the T series.
>
> We use community-wide goals to achieve visible common changes, push for
> basic levels of consistency and user experience, and efficiently improve
> certain areas where technical debt payments have become too high -
> across all OpenStack projects. Community input is important to ensure
> that the TC makes good decisions about the goals. We need to consider
> the timing, cycle length, priority, and feasibility of the suggested
> goals.
>
> If you are interested in proposing a goal, please make sure that before
> the summit it is described in the tracking etherpad [1] and that you
> have started a mailing list thread on the openstack-dev list about the
> proposal so that everyone in the forum session [2] has an opportunity to
> consider the details.  The forum session is only one step in the
> selection process. See [3] for more details.
>
> Doug
>
> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/community-goals
> [2] https://www.openstack.org/summit/berlin-2018/vote-for-speakers#/22814
> [3] https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/index.html
>
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> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
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>
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Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [openstack-dev] [goals][tc][ptl][uc] starting goal selection for T series

[Doug Hellmann]

Dean Troyer  writes:

> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 3:44 PM, Matt Riedemann  wrote:
>> I started documenting the compute API gaps in OSC last release [1]. It's a
>> big gap and needs a lot of work, even for existing CLIs (the cold/live
>> migration CLIs in OSC are a mess, and you can't even boot from volume where
>> nova creates the volume for you). That's also why I put something into the
>> etherpad about the OSC core team even being able to handle an onslaught of
>> changes for a goal like this.
>
> The OSC core team is very thin, yes, it seems as though companies
> don't like to spend money on client-facing things...I'll be in the
> hall following this thread should anyone want to talk...
>
> The migration commands are a mess, mostly because I got them wrong to
> start with and we have only tried to patch it up, this is one area I
> think we need to wipe clean and fix properly.  Yay! Major version
> release!

I definitely think having details about the gaps would be a prerequisite
for approving a goal, but I wonder if that's something 1 person could
even do alone. Is this an area where a small team is needed?

>> I thought the same, and we talked about this at the Austin summit, but OSC
>> is inconsistent about this (you can live migrate a server but you can't
>> evacuate it - there is no CLI for evacuation). It also came up at the Stein
>> PTG with Dean in the nova room giving us some direction. [2] I believe the
>> summary of that discussion was:
>
>> a) to deal with the core team sprawl, we could move the compute stuff out of
>> python-openstackclient and into an osc-compute plugin (like the
>> osc-placement plugin for the placement service); then we could create a new
>> core team which would have python-openstackclient-core as a superset
>
> This is not my first choice but is not terrible either...

We built cliff to be based on plugins to support this sort of work
distribution, right?

>> b) Dean suggested that we close the compute API gaps in the SDK first, but
>> that could take a long time as well...but it sounded like we could use the
>> SDK for things that existed in the SDK and use novaclient for things that
>> didn't yet exist in the SDK
>
> Yup, this can be done in parallel.  The unit of decision for use sdk
> vs use XXXclient lib is per-API call.  If the client lib can use an
> SDK adapter/session it becomes even better.  I think the priority for
> what to address first should be guided by complete gaps in coverage
> and the need for microversion-driven changes.
>
>> This might be a candidate for one of these multi-release goals that the TC
>> started talking about at the Stein PTG. I could see something like this
>> being a goal for Stein:
>>
>> "Each project owns its own osc- plugin for OSC CLIs"
>>
>> That deals with the core team and sprawl issue, especially with stevemar
>> being gone and dtroyer being distracted by shiny x-men bird related things.
>> That also seems relatively manageable for all projects to do in a single
>> release. Having a single-release goal of "close all gaps across all service
>> types" is going to be extremely tough for any older projects that had CLIs
>> before OSC was created (nova/cinder/glance/keystone). For newer projects,
>> like placement, it's not a problem because they never created any other CLI
>> outside of OSC.

Yeah, I agree this work is going to need to be split up. I'm still not
sold on the idea of multi-cycle goals, personally.

> I think the major difficulty here is simply how to migrate users from
> today state to future state in a reasonable manner.  If we could teach
> OSC how to handle the same command being defined in multiple plugins
> properly (hello entrypoints!) it could be much simpler as we could
> start creating the new plugins and switch as the new command
> implementations become available rather than having a hard cutover.
>
> Or maybe the definition of OSC v4 is as above and we just work at it
> until complete and cut over at the end.  Note that the current APIs
> that are in-repo (Compute, Identity, Image, Network, Object, Volume)
> are all implemented using the plugin structure, OSC v4 could start as
> the breaking out of those without command changes (except new
> migration commands!) and then the plugins all re-write and update at
> their own tempo.  Dang, did I just deconstruct my project?

It sure sounds like it. Congratulations!

I like the idea of moving the existing code into libraries, having
python-openstackclient depend on them, and then asking project teams for
more help with them.

> One thing I don't like about that is we just replace N client libs
> with N (or more) plugins now and the number of things a user must
> install doesn't go down.  I would like to hear from anyone who deals
> with installing OSC if that is still a big deal or should I let go of
> that worry?

Don't package managers just deal with this? I can pip/yum/apt install
something and get all of its dependencies, right?

Doug

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