Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Amrith Kumar's message of 2017-03-21 08:17:46 -0400:
> Doug,
> 
> I'm not sure I understand how we'd do this, and I've already started to see
> some attempts at this come up and they are going to cause quite a lot of
> churn across the code base. I would like to have a clearer description of
> what projects must do, like a cross project goal.
> 
> I'll catch you on IRC and hopefully get to a better understanding of this.

I think Sean answered this in the other thread while I was out on PTO,
but just in case:

1. Remove the use of the _LE, _LW, and _LI translation markers from
   message going to logs.
2. Retain the use of the _() translation marker for error messages and
   other strings that are returned by the API.

I don't think we need to wait for a goal definition to be written
to start the work, but if projects want to wait for the Queens cycle
and someone wants to own tracking that goal, I can help with the
write-up.

Doug

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -amrith
> 
> --
> Amrith Kumar
> amrith.ku...@gmail.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Hellmann [mailto:d...@doughellmann.com] 
> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 11:16 AM
> To: openstack-operators <openstack-operators@lists.openstack.org>
> Subject: Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
> 
> Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500:
> > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team 
> > decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means 
> > that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout 
> > the service code, because without anyone actually translating the 
> > messages there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.
> > 
> > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively 
> > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work 
> > and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us 
> > to restore that feature later.
> > 
> > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an 
> > irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log 
> > message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if you 
> > or your customers use them.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Doug
> > 
> > [1] 
> > http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.h
> > tml
> > 
> 
> We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their input
> makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them.
> 
> IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC
> users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature?
> 
> Doug
> 
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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Amrith Kumar]

Doug,

I'm not sure I understand how we'd do this, and I've already started to see
some attempts at this come up and they are going to cause quite a lot of
churn across the code base. I would like to have a clearer description of
what projects must do, like a cross project goal.

I'll catch you on IRC and hopefully get to a better understanding of this.

Thanks,

-amrith

--
Amrith Kumar
amrith.ku...@gmail.com


-Original Message-
From: Doug Hellmann [mailto:d...@doughellmann.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 11:16 AM
To: openstack-operators <openstack-operators@lists.openstack.org>
Subject: Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500:
> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team 
> decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means 
> that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout 
> the service code, because without anyone actually translating the 
> messages there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.
> 
> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively 
> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work 
> and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us 
> to restore that feature later.
> 
> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an 
> irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log 
> message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if you 
> or your customers use them.
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug
> 
> [1] 
> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.h
> tml
> 

We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their input
makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them.

IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC
users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature?

Doug

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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500:
> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team
> decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means
> that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the
> service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages
> there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.
> 
> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work
> and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect
> us to restore that feature later.
> 
> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an
> irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log
> message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if
> you or your customers use them.
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug
> 
> [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html
> 

Thank you all for your input; this has been very valuable.

Based on the apparently lack of interest in the feature, I have
recommended that teams go ahead and start removing the translation
markup from log messages, while keeping it for error messages associated
with the API.

Doug

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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Akihiro Motoki]

2017-03-14 0:15 GMT+09:00 Doug Hellmann :
> Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500:
>> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team
>> decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means
>> that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the
>> service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages
>> there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.
>>
>> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
>> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work
>> and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect
>> us to restore that feature later.
>>
>> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an
>> irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log
>> message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if
>> you or your customers use them.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Doug
>>
>> [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html
>>
>
> We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their
> input makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them.
>
> IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC
> users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature?

As a former Japanese Language team coordinator,
I can say Japanese OpenStack operators are not interested in using
translated version of log messages.
I made a quick survey on translations in OpenStack Days Tokyo two
years ago (2015).
There were around 300~400 attendees and nobody raised hands for log
translations.
(I am not sure how many operators were there, but I saw at least
several major OpenStack operators in Japan.)

Akihiro

>
> Doug
>
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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Jaesuk Ahn]

I’ve heard from several Korea operators, and I too was involved in OpenStack 
operation. I cannot represent everyone here in Korea, but It is mostly clear 
that log translation are not beneficial for operators, at least here in Korea. 

Thanks. 

Jaesuk Ahn, Ph.D. 

Software Defined Infra. Laboratory, SK Telecom

On 2017년 3월 14일 (화) at 오전 12:15 Doug Hellmann

<
mailto:Doug Hellmann 
> wrote:

a, pre, code, a:link, body { word-wrap: break-word !important; }

Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500:

> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team

> decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means

> that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the

> service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages

> there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.

>

> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively

> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work

> and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect

> us to restore that feature later.

>

> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an

> irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log

> message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if

> you or your customers use them.

>

> Thanks,

> Doug

>

> [1]
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html
>

We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their

input makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them.

IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC

users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature?

Doug

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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500:
> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team
> decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means
> that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the
> service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages
> there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.
> 
> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work
> and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect
> us to restore that feature later.
> 
> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an
> irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log
> message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if
> you or your customers use them.
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug
> 
> [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html
> 

We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their
input makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them.

IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC
users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature?

Doug

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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Florian Haas]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Amrith Kumar  wrote:
> Today the workflow is to copy the message and plonk it into google and let
> search do its thing.
>
> Given this, log message translation fragments the solution space because
> nothing out there consolidates the reports of problems with error messages
> and converts the non-english messages back to some common language for
> search.
>
> I'm not an operator, but I'd love to hear from operators whether this
> workflow is in fact the one we should be planning for because it has
> implications that go beyond translation. First, should we make messages
> uniquely searchable, such that a search result set uniquely relates to a
> specific problem. Conversely, if we go the route of message translation in
> the future should all messages include some searchable code (like Microsoft
> does with their crash codes).

Native speaker of German here, and not an operator either but someone
who frequently consults with operators including rather advanced
troubleshooting engagements. I agree entirely with what Amrith is
saying here. Solution space fragmentation is bad; log translation
contributes to that fragmentation. And yes having dependable unique
identifiers on error/warning/notice conditions would be oh so awesome.

Cheers,
Florian

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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Sławek Kapłoński]

Hello,

I'm Polish speaker and I never even though about translated logs. IMHO
english is so common language in IT that probably for most of us using
english instead of native language is perfectly fine.

-- 
Best regards / Pozdrawiam
Sławek Kapłoński
sla...@kaplonski.pl

On sob, 11 mar 2017, George Shuklin wrote:

> Whole idea with log translation is half-backed anyway. About the half of
> important log messages contain output of things outside openstack. Libvirt,
> ip, sudo, kernel, etc. In any i18n installation there going to be some
> amount of untranslated messages. This kills whole idea of localization.
> 
> Modern operator ought to know English at 'technical reading' level anyway.
> Therefore, localization does not achieve it goal, but cause pain instead:
> search segmentation, slightly misleading translation (f.e. 'stream' and
> 'thread' both translate into Russian 'поток', which brings ambiguity),
> different system may use slightly different translation, causing even more
> mess.
> 
> As Russian speaker and openstack operator I definitely don't want to have
> logs translation.
> 
> On Mar 10, 2017 4:42 PM, "Doug Hellmann"  wrote:
> 
> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team
> decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means
> that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the
> service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages
> there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.
> 
> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work
> and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect
> us to restore that feature later.
> 
> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an
> irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log
> message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if
> you or your customers use them.
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug
> 
> [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-
> March/113365.html
> 
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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Mariano Cunietti]

> On 11 Mar 2017, at 10:54, Saverio Proto  wrote:
> 
> I am Italian speaking.
> Does not make any sense to have the log messages translated. I think
> everything has already being said.

+1
I think there is not even an italian word for "log" 

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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Saverio Proto]

Hello there,
I am Italian speaking.
Does not make any sense to have the log messages translated. I think
everything has already being said.

Saverio


2017-03-11 9:20 GMT+01:00 George Shuklin :
> Whole idea with log translation is half-backed anyway. About the half of
> important log messages contain output of things outside openstack. Libvirt,
> ip, sudo, kernel, etc. In any i18n installation there going to be some
> amount of untranslated messages. This kills whole idea of localization.
>
> Modern operator ought to know English at 'technical reading' level anyway.
> Therefore, localization does not achieve it goal, but cause pain instead:
> search segmentation, slightly misleading translation (f.e. 'stream' and
> 'thread' both translate into Russian 'поток', which brings ambiguity),
> different system may use slightly different translation, causing even more
> mess.
>
> As Russian speaker and openstack operator I definitely don't want to have
> logs translation.
>
> On Mar 10, 2017 4:42 PM, "Doug Hellmann"  wrote:
>
> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team
> decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means
> that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the
> service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages
> there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.
>
> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work
> and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect
> us to restore that feature later.
>
> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an
> irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log
> message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if
> you or your customers use them.
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
>
> [1]
> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html
>
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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[George Shuklin]

Whole idea with log translation is half-backed anyway. About the half of
important log messages contain output of things outside openstack. Libvirt,
ip, sudo, kernel, etc. In any i18n installation there going to be some
amount of untranslated messages. This kills whole idea of localization.

Modern operator ought to know English at 'technical reading' level anyway.
Therefore, localization does not achieve it goal, but cause pain instead:
search segmentation, slightly misleading translation (f.e. 'stream' and
'thread' both translate into Russian 'поток', which brings ambiguity),
different system may use slightly different translation, causing even more
mess.

As Russian speaker and openstack operator I definitely don't want to have
logs translation.

On Mar 10, 2017 4:42 PM, "Doug Hellmann"  wrote:

There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team
decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means
that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the
service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages
there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.

If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work
and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect
us to restore that feature later.

Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an
irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log
message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if
you or your customers use them.

Thanks,
Doug

[1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-
March/113365.html

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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Chris Suttles]

I think a searchable code is handy. My workflow is to try to read the log 
messages and follow the flow of what I think should be happening. If I can't 
resolve the issue after a significant effort, I search  to see if there is a 
bug or someone else hit the same error, maybe due to misconfiguration. That 
usually gives me a small pile of similar things to sift through. If there were 
less sifting, that would be great :)

I only speak English, so I'm not a good candidate to provide feedback on 
translated messages.

-Chris

> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:19 AM, Amrith Kumar <amrith.ku...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Doug,
> 
> I had a conversation with someone from the i18n team in Atlanta at the PTG,
> and later with a couple of operators (from a non-english speaking country).
> I was surprised to hear that both the operators were in favor of doing away
> with log message translation. Thinking about it some more, I believe that
> the rationale may come from the fact that in years past (long ago, when
> people had tape drives and green screens) people actually read messages and
> then tried to understand what they did to figure out what the corrective
> action needed to be. And the messages needed to be sufficiently informative
> to direct people to the possible remedial actions.
> 
> Today the workflow is to copy the message and plonk it into google and let
> search do its thing.
> 
> Given this, log message translation fragments the solution space because
> nothing out there consolidates the reports of problems with error messages
> and converts the non-english messages back to some common language for
> search.
> 
> I'm not an operator, but I'd love to hear from operators whether this
> workflow is in fact the one we should be planning for because it has
> implications that go beyond translation. First, should we make messages
> uniquely searchable, such that a search result set uniquely relates to a
> specific problem. Conversely, if we go the route of message translation in
> the future should all messages include some searchable code (like Microsoft
> does with their crash codes).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -amrith 
> 
> --
> Amrith Kumar
> amrith.ku...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Hellmann [mailto:d...@doughellmann.com] 
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 9:39 AM
> To: openstack-operators <openstack-operators@lists.openstack.org>
> Subject: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
> 
> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team decision
> to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means that we may be
> able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the service code,
> because without anyone actually translating the messages there is no need
> for the markup code used to tag those strings.
> 
> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work and code
> churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us to restore that
> feature later.
> 
> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an irreversible
> action, we would like some input about whether log message translations are
> useful to anyone. Please let us know if you or your customers use them.
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug
> 
> [1]
> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html
> 
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Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Amrith Kumar]

Doug,

I had a conversation with someone from the i18n team in Atlanta at the PTG,
and later with a couple of operators (from a non-english speaking country).
I was surprised to hear that both the operators were in favor of doing away
with log message translation. Thinking about it some more, I believe that
the rationale may come from the fact that in years past (long ago, when
people had tape drives and green screens) people actually read messages and
then tried to understand what they did to figure out what the corrective
action needed to be. And the messages needed to be sufficiently informative
to direct people to the possible remedial actions.

Today the workflow is to copy the message and plonk it into google and let
search do its thing.

Given this, log message translation fragments the solution space because
nothing out there consolidates the reports of problems with error messages
and converts the non-english messages back to some common language for
search.

I'm not an operator, but I'd love to hear from operators whether this
workflow is in fact the one we should be planning for because it has
implications that go beyond translation. First, should we make messages
uniquely searchable, such that a search result set uniquely relates to a
specific problem. Conversely, if we go the route of message translation in
the future should all messages include some searchable code (like Microsoft
does with their crash codes).

Thanks,

-amrith 

--
Amrith Kumar
amrith.ku...@gmail.com


-Original Message-
From: Doug Hellmann [mailto:d...@doughellmann.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 9:39 AM
To: openstack-operators <openstack-operators@lists.openstack.org>
Subject: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team decision
to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means that we may be
able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the service code,
because without anyone actually translating the messages there is no need
for the markup code used to tag those strings.

If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work and code
churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us to restore that
feature later.

Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an irreversible
action, we would like some input about whether log message translations are
useful to anyone. Please let us know if you or your customers use them.

Thanks,
Doug

[1]
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html

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[Openstack-operators] need input on log translations

[Doug Hellmann]

There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team
decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means
that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the
service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages
there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings.

If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively
removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work
and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect
us to restore that feature later.

Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an
irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log
message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if
you or your customers use them.

Thanks,
Doug

[1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html

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