Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
Excerpts from Amrith Kumar's message of 2017-03-21 08:17:46 -0400: > Doug, > > I'm not sure I understand how we'd do this, and I've already started to see > some attempts at this come up and they are going to cause quite a lot of > churn across the code base. I would like to have a clearer description of > what projects must do, like a cross project goal. > > I'll catch you on IRC and hopefully get to a better understanding of this. I think Sean answered this in the other thread while I was out on PTO, but just in case: 1. Remove the use of the _LE, _LW, and _LI translation markers from message going to logs. 2. Retain the use of the _() translation marker for error messages and other strings that are returned by the API. I don't think we need to wait for a goal definition to be written to start the work, but if projects want to wait for the Queens cycle and someone wants to own tracking that goal, I can help with the write-up. Doug > > Thanks, > > -amrith > > -- > Amrith Kumar > amrith.ku...@gmail.com > > -Original Message- > From: Doug Hellmann [mailto:d...@doughellmann.com] > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 11:16 AM > To: openstack-operators <openstack-operators@lists.openstack.org> > Subject: Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations > > Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500: > > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team > > decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means > > that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout > > the service code, because without anyone actually translating the > > messages there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. > > > > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively > > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work > > and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us > > to restore that feature later. > > > > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an > > irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log > > message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if you > > or your customers use them. > > > > Thanks, > > Doug > > > > [1] > > http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.h > > tml > > > > We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their input > makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them. > > IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC > users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature? > > Doug > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators > > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
Doug, I'm not sure I understand how we'd do this, and I've already started to see some attempts at this come up and they are going to cause quite a lot of churn across the code base. I would like to have a clearer description of what projects must do, like a cross project goal. I'll catch you on IRC and hopefully get to a better understanding of this. Thanks, -amrith -- Amrith Kumar amrith.ku...@gmail.com -Original Message- From: Doug Hellmann [mailto:d...@doughellmann.com] Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 11:16 AM To: openstack-operators <openstack-operators@lists.openstack.org> Subject: Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500: > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team > decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means > that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout > the service code, because without anyone actually translating the > messages there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. > > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work > and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us > to restore that feature later. > > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an > irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log > message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if you > or your customers use them. > > Thanks, > Doug > > [1] > http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.h > tml > We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their input makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them. IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature? Doug ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500: > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team > decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means > that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the > service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages > there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. > > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work > and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect > us to restore that feature later. > > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an > irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log > message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if > you or your customers use them. > > Thanks, > Doug > > [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html > Thank you all for your input; this has been very valuable. Based on the apparently lack of interest in the feature, I have recommended that teams go ahead and start removing the translation markup from log messages, while keeping it for error messages associated with the API. Doug ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
2017-03-14 0:15 GMT+09:00 Doug Hellmann: > Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500: >> There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team >> decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means >> that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the >> service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages >> there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. >> >> If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively >> removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work >> and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect >> us to restore that feature later. >> >> Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an >> irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log >> message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if >> you or your customers use them. >> >> Thanks, >> Doug >> >> [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html >> > > We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their > input makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them. > > IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC > users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature? As a former Japanese Language team coordinator, I can say Japanese OpenStack operators are not interested in using translated version of log messages. I made a quick survey on translations in OpenStack Days Tokyo two years ago (2015). There were around 300~400 attendees and nobody raised hands for log translations. (I am not sure how many operators were there, but I saw at least several major OpenStack operators in Japan.) Akihiro > > Doug > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
I’ve heard from several Korea operators, and I too was involved in OpenStack operation. I cannot represent everyone here in Korea, but It is mostly clear that log translation are not beneficial for operators, at least here in Korea. Thanks. Jaesuk Ahn, Ph.D. Software Defined Infra. Laboratory, SK Telecom On 2017년 3월 14일 (화) at 오전 12:15 Doug Hellmann < mailto:Doug Hellmann> wrote: a, pre, code, a:link, body { word-wrap: break-word !important; } Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500: > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team > decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means > that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the > service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages > there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. > > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work > and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect > us to restore that feature later. > > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an > irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log > message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if > you or your customers use them. > > Thanks, > Doug > > [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html > We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their input makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them. IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature? Doug ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list mailto:OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2017-03-10 09:38:43 -0500: > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team > decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means > that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the > service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages > there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. > > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work > and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect > us to restore that feature later. > > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an > irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log > message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if > you or your customers use them. > > Thanks, > Doug > > [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html > We've heard from several European operators on this thread, and their input makes it clear that log translations are not useful to them. IIRC, the translation feature was originally added for some of our APAC users. Is anyone from APAC actively using the feature? Doug ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Amrith Kumarwrote: > Today the workflow is to copy the message and plonk it into google and let > search do its thing. > > Given this, log message translation fragments the solution space because > nothing out there consolidates the reports of problems with error messages > and converts the non-english messages back to some common language for > search. > > I'm not an operator, but I'd love to hear from operators whether this > workflow is in fact the one we should be planning for because it has > implications that go beyond translation. First, should we make messages > uniquely searchable, such that a search result set uniquely relates to a > specific problem. Conversely, if we go the route of message translation in > the future should all messages include some searchable code (like Microsoft > does with their crash codes). Native speaker of German here, and not an operator either but someone who frequently consults with operators including rather advanced troubleshooting engagements. I agree entirely with what Amrith is saying here. Solution space fragmentation is bad; log translation contributes to that fragmentation. And yes having dependable unique identifiers on error/warning/notice conditions would be oh so awesome. Cheers, Florian ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
Hello, I'm Polish speaker and I never even though about translated logs. IMHO english is so common language in IT that probably for most of us using english instead of native language is perfectly fine. -- Best regards / Pozdrawiam Sławek Kapłoński sla...@kaplonski.pl On sob, 11 mar 2017, George Shuklin wrote: > Whole idea with log translation is half-backed anyway. About the half of > important log messages contain output of things outside openstack. Libvirt, > ip, sudo, kernel, etc. In any i18n installation there going to be some > amount of untranslated messages. This kills whole idea of localization. > > Modern operator ought to know English at 'technical reading' level anyway. > Therefore, localization does not achieve it goal, but cause pain instead: > search segmentation, slightly misleading translation (f.e. 'stream' and > 'thread' both translate into Russian 'поток', which brings ambiguity), > different system may use slightly different translation, causing even more > mess. > > As Russian speaker and openstack operator I definitely don't want to have > logs translation. > > On Mar 10, 2017 4:42 PM, "Doug Hellmann"wrote: > > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team > decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means > that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the > service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages > there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. > > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work > and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect > us to restore that feature later. > > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an > irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log > message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if > you or your customers use them. > > Thanks, > Doug > > [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017- > March/113365.html > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
> On 11 Mar 2017, at 10:54, Saverio Protowrote: > > I am Italian speaking. > Does not make any sense to have the log messages translated. I think > everything has already being said. +1 I think there is not even an italian word for "log" ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
Hello there, I am Italian speaking. Does not make any sense to have the log messages translated. I think everything has already being said. Saverio 2017-03-11 9:20 GMT+01:00 George Shuklin: > Whole idea with log translation is half-backed anyway. About the half of > important log messages contain output of things outside openstack. Libvirt, > ip, sudo, kernel, etc. In any i18n installation there going to be some > amount of untranslated messages. This kills whole idea of localization. > > Modern operator ought to know English at 'technical reading' level anyway. > Therefore, localization does not achieve it goal, but cause pain instead: > search segmentation, slightly misleading translation (f.e. 'stream' and > 'thread' both translate into Russian 'поток', which brings ambiguity), > different system may use slightly different translation, causing even more > mess. > > As Russian speaker and openstack operator I definitely don't want to have > logs translation. > > On Mar 10, 2017 4:42 PM, "Doug Hellmann" wrote: > > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team > decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means > that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the > service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages > there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. > > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work > and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect > us to restore that feature later. > > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an > irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log > message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if > you or your customers use them. > > Thanks, > Doug > > [1] > http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators > > > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators > ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
Whole idea with log translation is half-backed anyway. About the half of important log messages contain output of things outside openstack. Libvirt, ip, sudo, kernel, etc. In any i18n installation there going to be some amount of untranslated messages. This kills whole idea of localization. Modern operator ought to know English at 'technical reading' level anyway. Therefore, localization does not achieve it goal, but cause pain instead: search segmentation, slightly misleading translation (f.e. 'stream' and 'thread' both translate into Russian 'поток', which brings ambiguity), different system may use slightly different translation, causing even more mess. As Russian speaker and openstack operator I definitely don't want to have logs translation. On Mar 10, 2017 4:42 PM, "Doug Hellmann"wrote: There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us to restore that feature later. Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if you or your customers use them. Thanks, Doug [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017- March/113365.html ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
I think a searchable code is handy. My workflow is to try to read the log messages and follow the flow of what I think should be happening. If I can't resolve the issue after a significant effort, I search to see if there is a bug or someone else hit the same error, maybe due to misconfiguration. That usually gives me a small pile of similar things to sift through. If there were less sifting, that would be great :) I only speak English, so I'm not a good candidate to provide feedback on translated messages. -Chris > On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:19 AM, Amrith Kumarwrote: > > Doug, > > I had a conversation with someone from the i18n team in Atlanta at the PTG, > and later with a couple of operators (from a non-english speaking country). > I was surprised to hear that both the operators were in favor of doing away > with log message translation. Thinking about it some more, I believe that > the rationale may come from the fact that in years past (long ago, when > people had tape drives and green screens) people actually read messages and > then tried to understand what they did to figure out what the corrective > action needed to be. And the messages needed to be sufficiently informative > to direct people to the possible remedial actions. > > Today the workflow is to copy the message and plonk it into google and let > search do its thing. > > Given this, log message translation fragments the solution space because > nothing out there consolidates the reports of problems with error messages > and converts the non-english messages back to some common language for > search. > > I'm not an operator, but I'd love to hear from operators whether this > workflow is in fact the one we should be planning for because it has > implications that go beyond translation. First, should we make messages > uniquely searchable, such that a search result set uniquely relates to a > specific problem. Conversely, if we go the route of message translation in > the future should all messages include some searchable code (like Microsoft > does with their crash codes). > > Thanks, > > -amrith > > -- > Amrith Kumar > amrith.ku...@gmail.com > > > -Original Message- > From: Doug Hellmann [mailto:d...@doughellmann.com] > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 9:39 AM > To: openstack-operators > Subject: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations > > There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team decision > to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means that we may be > able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the service code, > because without anyone actually translating the messages there is no need > for the markup code used to tag those strings. > > If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively > removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work and code > churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us to restore that > feature later. > > Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an irreversible > action, we would like some input about whether log message translations are > useful to anyone. Please let us know if you or your customers use them. > > Thanks, > Doug > > [1] > http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators > > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations
Doug, I had a conversation with someone from the i18n team in Atlanta at the PTG, and later with a couple of operators (from a non-english speaking country). I was surprised to hear that both the operators were in favor of doing away with log message translation. Thinking about it some more, I believe that the rationale may come from the fact that in years past (long ago, when people had tape drives and green screens) people actually read messages and then tried to understand what they did to figure out what the corrective action needed to be. And the messages needed to be sufficiently informative to direct people to the possible remedial actions. Today the workflow is to copy the message and plonk it into google and let search do its thing. Given this, log message translation fragments the solution space because nothing out there consolidates the reports of problems with error messages and converts the non-english messages back to some common language for search. I'm not an operator, but I'd love to hear from operators whether this workflow is in fact the one we should be planning for because it has implications that go beyond translation. First, should we make messages uniquely searchable, such that a search result set uniquely relates to a specific problem. Conversely, if we go the route of message translation in the future should all messages include some searchable code (like Microsoft does with their crash codes). Thanks, -amrith -- Amrith Kumar amrith.ku...@gmail.com -Original Message- From: Doug Hellmann [mailto:d...@doughellmann.com] Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 9:39 AM To: openstack-operatorsSubject: [Openstack-operators] need input on log translations There is a discussion on the -dev mailing list about the i18n team decision to stop translating log messages [1]. The policy change means that we may be able to clean up quite a lot of "clutter" throughout the service code, because without anyone actually translating the messages there is no need for the markup code used to tag those strings. If we do remove the markup from log messages, we will be effectively removing "multilingual logs" as a feature. Given the amount of work and code churn involved in the first roll out, I would not expect us to restore that feature later. Therefore, before we take what would almost certainly be an irreversible action, we would like some input about whether log message translations are useful to anyone. Please let us know if you or your customers use them. Thanks, Doug [1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113365.html ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators