Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[jdd]

G T Smith wrote:


The classic backup everything in sight approach while simple is probably
rarely appropriate for most cases.


right.

a good backup strategy must first know what kind of data is to be 
backed up...


The "bussiness" case you sepak of is not bussiness but server one. in 
case of server crash, the recovery speed is important, and the 
important thing is the system - so better have two in sync machines :-)


other kind of data are of roughly three types:

* small files (letters, most documents... desktop work). The backup 
should be of _user_ responsability. In my Highschool, all the users 
where warned than _no backup_ whas ever made and than computer being 
shared where periodically erased and restored, so no data should stay 
on a computer. so use medias or lose your data...


* big database files. this is a very professional issue (several Tb of 
data, no medaia available), I wont say anything about it


* beta tester type. Very frequent here :-). We live with hudge files 
(dvd isos) of very time limited value. who cares of 10.0 Alpha 2 
dvd??? so why backup this at all?


On these computers, the only usable way I found is to have the data 
parsed in specialized contents. My photos, my videos, my musiocs are 
all in data chunks less than a dvd size, frequently writen so if one 
dvd appear to be bad, little is lost and any other time the data is 
immediately available.


I do not rely on any error recovery system, when one error come, there 
are often many, too much


and when my system fails completely I build a new one from scratch, I 
use this to have a fresh openSUSE :-). My backup is a paper written 
HOWTO :-)


jdd

--
http://www.dodin.net
http://gourmandises.orangeblog.fr/
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[G T Smith]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Registration Account wrote:
> This is the fundamental  concept, we backup in a certain was so that if
> there is a data failure we can restore. If you need to restore a system
> to a particular date,and you use incremental backups The first part of
> the restoration is to get the backup file that we first complete as it
> contains every file. The next setup is to get hold of the incremental
> backup of the point in times the original full backup files were taken
> and when it is run it will over-right all files from base line full
> functionality to current required date.
> 
> The expression "we backup so that we CAN restore" is covered more
> precisely in data security.  The expression is based upon the issue if
> you are not correctly backing up you you can Never recover and hence the
> money you put into back is useless. The expression is timeless and
> covered in detail in data centre which have to be able to loose all data
> and then restore to a designated point in time.
> Scott
> :-)
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> The Wednesday 2007-05-16 at 08:36 +1000, Registration Account wrote:
>>
>>> You only back or-order to restore - How do you fully restore and
>>> incremental backup if you loose the first file?
>>> Scott
>> Sorry, I don't understand what you say :-?
>>
>> What is "back or-order to restore"?
>>
>>
> 

Agreed, but there is a bit more to it than that. There are crudely two
cases, the home user case, and the business case. (This is a very crude
distinction). The backup strategy should be based on how one intends to
restore the system. It is of no value if you can successfully save and
restore operationally useless data. It is not just how you backup it is
also what you backup, and thought needs to be given about what you
backup and why you are backing it up. This also means that data
management strategies should facilitate backup and restore procedures.

The classic backup everything in sight approach while simple is probably
rarely appropriate for most cases. One first has to look at the
scenarios in which one has to restore

a) The machine is physically unavailable. This can be due to hardware
failure, physical destruction, or it has been half inched (stolen).

b) Software failure due to malware, software bugs, user error, and data
corruption. (One can get the latter as a result of a of course).

Most people design their disaster recovery program around a, and tend to
ignore b. However this classic backup technique does not give anything
but minimal protection against b, and b is rather more frequent than
most people are prepared to acknowledge. All you likely to recover is
the same mangled set of data just before everything went pear shaped. It
is probably not a bright idea to restore something only for everything
to fall over again.

Data integrity strategies such as raid or drive synchronisation are
equally vulnerable to b.

A differential (rather than incremental) strategy can protect against b
to some extent because one gets a historical perspective on the status
changes on a machines and ones has a better chance of restoring to a
last good state, and plotting a recovery path so that good changes are
not lost with the bad. However, full recovery can be time consuming
especially when one has no idea when things started going pear shaped.
It can take a bit of time for a problem to start and the effects to be
discovered.  The main problem with an incremental approach is that one
can acquire a lot of unrequired data that can slow this process
considerably. Either strategy is more of shotgun rather than a surgeons
knife approach.

It does help in the business case if database based systems are not only
designed to backup current record status, but the transactions that lead
to that status, and some kind of document management system is in place.
The data can be dumped in an application specific format, and stored to
appropriate media. Any backup strategy then becomes more application
focused than system focused, and based on the history of application
usage. (Which can make it easier to identify points of failure).

One can then break down backups to system focused and application
focused requirements.

In the business case the initial objective is get the system operational
ASAP. On could argue at its simplest user data on a system is in three
different states (one can have more complex definitions of course) ...

i) Currently Active
ii) Recently Active
iii) Historical (retained for legal or policy reasons).

Other data should be archived to media. (A recent survey suggested that
up to 50% of data on a system will never be accessed again). One does
not need to restore everything immediately, merely that data which gets
the business operational. As ii) and iii) are usually going to be
significantly larger than i) it is best to prioritise i) and have it as
a discrete media set. One also really needs to only backup religiously
i), as data in ii) and 

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Thursday 2007-05-17 at 20:34 -0400, Ciro Iriarte wrote:

> Well, the key feature discussed is media error recovery

Yes.

Doing backups with redundancy (and posibly compression) with error 
recovery.

What I have yet to verify is how well does rar save/restore linux 
filesystem attributes. When I tried it years ago it did badly.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGTWv7tTMYHG2NR9URAoL4AJ9rEgaEnmsz6VQ0D/KZHDoUZmzv+wCeK77u
pB0NlHb3ShG+wxYa7D9E/No=
=evK8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Thursday 2007-05-17 at 20:53 -0300, Gabriel wrote:

> Mmm, try this http://www.7-zip.org/ it support a lot of formats
> including Rar and it's open source.

Afaik, only decompressing:



   «There does not seem to be any open source implementations to 
   decompress files newer than version 2.0. RAR archives (7-Zip uses a 
   proprietary plugin under "unRAR license" for decompression).»

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGTWsztTMYHG2NR9URAmbyAJ4n8wOcKcJquVrZBOTm6Mp+eIhH8ACgh79k
PgomeOx4FP95vC3mklIEt2c=
=7jay
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Friday 2007-05-18 at 15:38 +1000, Registration Account wrote:

> This is the fundamental  concept, we backup in a certain was so that if
> there is a data failure we can restore. If you need to restore a system
> to a particular date,and you use incremental backups The first part of
> the restoration is to get the backup file that we first complete as it
> contains every file. The next setup is to get hold of the incremental
> backup of the point in times the original full backup files were taken
> and when it is run it will over-right all files from base line full
> functionality to current required date.
> 
> The expression "we backup so that we CAN restore" is covered more
> precisely in data security.  The expression is based upon the issue if
> you are not correctly backing up you you can Never recover and hence the
> money you put into back is useless. The expression is timeless and
> covered in detail in data centre which have to be able to loose all data
> and then restore to a designated point in time.
> Scott
> :-)

Yes, I understand "we backup so that we CAN restore", but you said "back 
or-order to restore", and that one I still don't understand.

In any case, a yast backup is neither full nor incremental. It is a 
different type. Perhaps an "rpm differential".


- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGTWnItTMYHG2NR9URAgSGAJ91m9bkxCHEX4oAtK8VoZOc5pqcxgCfX+RD
FN7qy3bENrtsguX/cKnf7dA=
=VuNU
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Registration Account]

This is the fundamental  concept, we backup in a certain was so that if
there is a data failure we can restore. If you need to restore a system
to a particular date,and you use incremental backups The first part of
the restoration is to get the backup file that we first complete as it
contains every file. The next setup is to get hold of the incremental
backup of the point in times the original full backup files were taken
and when it is run it will over-right all files from base line full
functionality to current required date.

The expression "we backup so that we CAN restore" is covered more
precisely in data security.  The expression is based upon the issue if
you are not correctly backing up you you can Never recover and hence the
money you put into back is useless. The expression is timeless and
covered in detail in data centre which have to be able to loose all data
and then restore to a designated point in time.
Scott
:-)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> The Wednesday 2007-05-16 at 08:36 +1000, Registration Account wrote:
>
> > You only back or-order to restore - How do you fully restore and
> > incremental backup if you loose the first file?
> > Scott
>
> Sorry, I don't understand what you say :-?
>
> What is "back or-order to restore"?
>
>



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Ciro Iriarte]

> > Really? I see only a "trial" version, nothing marked "shareware."
> > Usually I interpret "trial" as being limited in either functionality or
> > duration of operability, though I don't see any specific information on
> > what precisely "trial" means for RARLAB.
>
> I speak from memory. Years ago, when I used it, it was shareware: try it,
> pay later. There are references to the word in their page, and also to
> "buy". And if you look at the license file, you would see:
>
>   "The RAR archiver is distributed as try before you buy".
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>Carlos E. R.

It also says:

  "Anyone may use this software during a test period of 40
  days. Following this test period of 40 days or less,
  if you wish to continue to use RAR, you must purchase a licence."

The license is found at:

/usr/share/doc/packages/rar/license.txt

- James W



Well,  i installed it 6 months ago, and still works

Ciro
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Ciro Iriarte]

2007/5/17, Randall R Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On Thursday 17 May 2007 16:53, Gabriel wrote:
> ...
>
> Mmm, try this http://www.7-zip.org/ it support a lot of formats
> including Rar and it's open source.

Not to mention this:

% rpm -qa |egrep -i 7zip
p7zip-4.39-2.guru.suse100


And if you have it installed (or install it) and do the obvious:

% man p7zip
p7zip: nothing appropriate.

or

% apropos 7zip

or

% aproppos p7zip
p7zip: nothing appropriate.


... you should know that the command and the man page are "7z", "7za"
and "7zr":

% apropos 7z
7z (1)   - A file archiver with highest compression ratio
7za (1)  - A file archiver with highest compression ratio
7zr (1)  - A file archiver with highest compression ratio


Kind of boastful, eh? Sort of like "Best and lasts longest."


> Regards.


Randall Schulz
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Well, the key feature discussed is media error recovery

Ciro
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Randall R Schulz]

On Thursday 17 May 2007 16:53, Gabriel wrote:
> ...
>
> Mmm, try this http://www.7-zip.org/ it support a lot of formats
> including Rar and it's open source.

Not to mention this:

% rpm -qa |egrep -i 7zip
p7zip-4.39-2.guru.suse100


And if you have it installed (or install it) and do the obvious:

% man p7zip
p7zip: nothing appropriate.

or

% apropos 7zip

or

% aproppos p7zip
p7zip: nothing appropriate.


... you should know that the command and the man page are "7z", "7za" 
and "7zr":

% apropos 7z
7z (1)   - A file archiver with highest compression ratio
7za (1)  - A file archiver with highest compression ratio
7zr (1)  - A file archiver with highest compression ratio


Kind of boastful, eh? Sort of like "Best and lasts longest."


> Regards.


Randall Schulz
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Gabriel]

Carlos E. R. escribió:
 > I speak from memory. Years ago, when I used it, it was shareware: try
it,
> pay later. There are references to the word in their page, and also to 
> "buy". And if you look at the license file, you would see:
> 
>   "The RAR archiver is distributed as try before you buy".
> 

Mmm, try this http://www.7-zip.org/ it support a lot of formats
including Rar and it's open source.

Regards.
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[james wright]

On Thursday 17 May 2007 19:40, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Thursday 2007-05-17 at 16:21 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > On Thursday 17 May 2007 07:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Yes, there is a current shareware linux version here:
> > >
> > > 
> >
> > Really? I see only a "trial" version, nothing marked "shareware."
> > Usually I interpret "trial" as being limited in either functionality or
> > duration of operability, though I don't see any specific information on
> > what precisely "trial" means for RARLAB.
>
> I speak from memory. Years ago, when I used it, it was shareware: try it,
> pay later. There are references to the word in their page, and also to
> "buy". And if you look at the license file, you would see:
>
>   "The RAR archiver is distributed as try before you buy".
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>Carlos E. R.

It also says:

  "Anyone may use this software during a test period of 40
  days. Following this test period of 40 days or less,
  if you wish to continue to use RAR, you must purchase a licence."

The license is found at:

/usr/share/doc/packages/rar/license.txt

- James W

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Thursday 2007-05-17 at 16:21 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> On Thursday 17 May 2007 07:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > Yes, there is a current shareware linux version here:
> >
> > 
> 
> Really? I see only a "trial" version, nothing marked "shareware." 
> Usually I interpret "trial" as being limited in either functionality or 
> duration of operability, though I don't see any specific information on 
> what precisely "trial" means for RARLAB.

I speak from memory. Years ago, when I used it, it was shareware: try it, 
pay later. There are references to the word in their page, and also to 
"buy". And if you look at the license file, you would see:

  "The RAR archiver is distributed as try before you buy".



- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGTOfatTMYHG2NR9URAk+UAJ97j6SCUd7y8qmF2mwcLq8ub6tcvgCbBqp0
YW13p4hy2NcjO8KkkFgZhps=
=VtOF
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Randall R Schulz]

On Thursday 17 May 2007 07:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> ...
>
> Yes, there is a current shareware linux version here:
>
> 

Really? I see only a "trial" version, nothing marked "shareware." 
Usually I interpret "trial" as being limited in either functionality or 
duration of operability, though I don't see any specific information on 
what precisely "trial" means for RARLAB.


> --
> Cheers,
>Carlos E. R.


Randall Schulz
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Ciro Iriarte]

2007/5/17, Carlos E. R. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Thursday 2007-05-17 at 12:26 +0100, David Bolt wrote:

> On Thu, 17 May 2007, Ciro Iriarte wrote:-
>
> >RAR also provides a options to "Create recovery volumes"
>
> AFAIK[0], you can't _create_ a RAR file under Linux, only unpack them.
> If that is still the case, being able to create recovery volumes isn't
> much help.

There is, I think, a linux shareware version of rar, which I tried years
ago and found lacking a lot. Maybe they have improved, dunno. Also, the
first version of the algorithm was some kind of opensource, but I haven't
seen a linux version of that (and it couldn't compete with any of the
current compressors, any way).

The wikipedia says (under "Archiver features"):

   Variable amounts of redundancy (recovery record) can be added to an
  archive, making it more resistant to corruption. Even if parts of an
  archive are damaged, it is possible to fully recover the stored data if
  a large enough recovery record exists.

It is, of course, interesting, that a compression algorithm handles
internally things like volume spanning and redundancy.

[...]

Yes, there is a current shareware linux version here:




- --
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.


Just tried, and with the v3.60 SHAREWARE i can create archives with
Recovery Records, and even add them to an existing archive I'm not
sure what are the limitations, if any...

Ciro
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Thursday 2007-05-17 at 12:26 +0100, David Bolt wrote:

> On Thu, 17 May 2007, Ciro Iriarte wrote:-
> 
> >RAR also provides a options to "Create recovery volumes"
> 
> AFAIK[0], you can't _create_ a RAR file under Linux, only unpack them.
> If that is still the case, being able to create recovery volumes isn't
> much help.

There is, I think, a linux shareware version of rar, which I tried years 
ago and found lacking a lot. Maybe they have improved, dunno. Also, the 
first version of the algorithm was some kind of opensource, but I haven't 
seen a linux version of that (and it couldn't compete with any of the 
current compressors, any way).

The wikipedia says (under "Archiver features"):

   Variable amounts of redundancy (recovery record) can be added to an 
  archive, making it more resistant to corruption. Even if parts of an 
  archive are damaged, it is possible to fully recover the stored data if 
  a large enough recovery record exists.

It is, of course, interesting, that a compression algorithm handles 
internally things like volume spanning and redundancy.

[...]

Yes, there is a current shareware linux version here: 




- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGTGUjtTMYHG2NR9URAhwZAJ95PTfa7VFr381jzByRq/Y3a+JXgwCfdy7K
gV8Jm/oiffJnq0lIE1VEdlw=
=EVW8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Bolt]

On Thu, 17 May 2007, Ciro Iriarte wrote:-



>RAR also provides a options to "Create recovery volumes"

AFAIK[0], you can't _create_ a RAR file under Linux, only unpack them.
If that is still the case, being able to create recovery volumes isn't
much help.


[0] without actually searching any further than the contents of the SUSE
DVD.

Regards,
David Bolt

-- 
Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/
RISCOS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
RISCOS 3.6  | SUSE 10.0 64bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
TOS 4.02| SUSE 9.3 32bit  | | openSUSE 10.3a3 32bit
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Thursday 2007-05-17 at 03:08 -0400, Ciro Iriarte wrote:

> 
> RAR also provides a options to "Create recovery volumes"

But rar is propietary, and when I tried years ago, it had problems saving 
all the unix type attributes.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGTCVptTMYHG2NR9URAjVIAJ9ZfinZQpfdMyAN+77F+s9U62ftlgCfblp2
97Wv+9Y9M76vmNZSqGJ+IVY=
=AYGV
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Ciro Iriarte]

And for the last few years, just to make sure my backups are going to be
recoverable, I have a quite decent[2] backup system:

1, use tar to create an archive;
2, split the archive into 100MB pieces;
3, use par2 to create parity files for recovery in case of a media
failure, using a 1MB block-size and 535 recover blocks;
4, burn about 3.5GB of data, plus the 530MB of par2 files to DVD;
5, make a duplicate of the DVD.

Results are that if there is a failure of the disc, I can use dd to
salvage the readable files, recreate the broken ones and burn a fresh
couple of copies. The only time this would fail is if both copies of the
DVD, or more than 530MB of data on both discs, were unreadable.


[0] Unknown because they're full-face printable, so no branding, and I
no longer have the label for the 50-disc cakes.

[1] From the time-stamps on the files.

Regards,
David Bolt


RAR also provides a options to "Create recovery volumes"

Ciro
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Wednesday 2007-05-16 at 08:36 +1000, Registration Account wrote:

> You only back or-order to restore - How do you fully restore and
> incremental backup if you loose the first file?
> Scott

Sorry, I don't understand what you say :-?

What is "back or-order to restore"?


- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGSk0BtTMYHG2NR9URAsSWAKCU1gkRdaYcJwsJdcaxV+PX9nm43ACgkY1z
9eFdaerB+2LNw7pZdQYjroo=
=n0S8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Registration Account]

You only back or-order to restore - How do you fully restore and
incremental backup if you loose the first file?
Scott

Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> The Sunday 2007-05-13 at 08:17 +1000, Registration Account wrote:
>
> > I have raised a bug because the current system back in yast only offers
> > an incremental backup - so if you loose the first achieve your stuffed.
>
> I don't understand this sentence... could you clarify, please?
>
> > The reply came back and described it as a Hugh code re-write within Yast
>
> would that be "huge"?
>
> > and it was just a font end based on ---I forgot: I suggested that the
> > new front end  should be written around CPIO . The bug is now Assigned
> > for a LATER status.. - Cross you fingers everyone
>
>
> I have not used yast backup in a long time. I did study it, and I have a
> script somewhere that reproduces it's capability somehow.
>
> It was based on the rpm command ability to generate a list of files that
> are included in the rpm database, but which were later on modified;
> parsing that list it generates a backup of those files in a modified tar
> gz format (one tgz per package in a bigger tar, I think). If you combine
> this with autoyast, you can recreate the system part of an install,
> storing just the files that were modified.
>
> The snag is that new configuration files that are not in any rpm are not
> stored either, unless you tell it to store all files not in rpms - in
> which case the backup can be huge if you forget to tell it not to include
> home etcetera - and you need enough space to keep a temporary
> uncompressed
> copy of all.
>
> Not very usable, but that was two years ago, I don't know wht they have
> improved on it.
>
> I find all backups programs I try in linux to be lacking a lot.
>
>
> PS. Yes, I also think cpio would be better than tgz. Much safer. There
> was
> a cute backup script inlcuded in the distro around version 7 or 8, using
> cpio.
>
>



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Sunday 2007-05-13 at 08:17 +1000, Registration Account wrote:

> I have raised a bug because the current system back in yast only offers
> an incremental backup - so if you loose the first achieve your stuffed.

I don't understand this sentence... could you clarify, please?

> The reply came back and described it as a Hugh code re-write within Yast

would that be "huge"?

> and it was just a font end based on ---I forgot: I suggested that the
> new front end  should be written around CPIO . The bug is now Assigned
> for a LATER status.. - Cross you fingers everyone


I have not used yast backup in a long time. I did study it, and I have a 
script somewhere that reproduces it's capability somehow.

It was based on the rpm command ability to generate a list of files that 
are included in the rpm database, but which were later on modified; 
parsing that list it generates a backup of those files in a modified tar 
gz format (one tgz per package in a bigger tar, I think). If you combine 
this with autoyast, you can recreate the system part of an install, 
storing just the files that were modified.

The snag is that new configuration files that are not in any rpm are not 
stored either, unless you tell it to store all files not in rpms - in 
which case the backup can be huge if you forget to tell it not to include 
home etcetera - and you need enough space to keep a temporary uncompressed 
copy of all.

Not very usable, but that was two years ago, I don't know wht they have 
improved on it.

I find all backups programs I try in linux to be lacking a lot.


PS. Yes, I also think cpio would be better than tgz. Much safer. There was 
a cute backup script inlcuded in the distro around version 7 or 8, using 
cpio.


- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGR15HtTMYHG2NR9URApkuAJ9LDrcuPfqSAzVWfRx4M06hjWdnqwCfR9Ic
Qj7u0KoCJVh1hyB2xTnJT94=
=GZsr
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Thursday 2007-05-10 at 16:34 +0100, David Bolt wrote:

> >and it is the version I compiled, too. Curious!
> 
> Very interesting.
> 

> ># change according to you need
> >PAR=par2
> >
> >
> >I did not touch that, it is dated "2006-11-25". Funny that SuSE contains a
> >script calling a program they do not supply.
> 
> That's in the documentation, which means it's supplied by the original
> authors/packagers, not by SUSE.

True enough, but it's refered to in the main man page.


> >Maybe I'll bug the bugzilla
> >chaps a bit ;-)
> 
> Maybe bug them to include par2. The sources are the same as from
> sourceforge, except for repackaging them as a .tar.bz2, and there's the
> patch for it to compile using GCC4.

Yes... I might do, next time I fire it up. I have to be in the correct 
mood O:-)



> >(The par calling code is:
> >
> >exec $PAR c -r$6 -n1 "$1/$2.$3.$4"
> >
> >with the positional parameters being:
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Which explains why par2 can do the same job as par. That dar script
> doesn't use any of the features that aren't common to both par and par2.

Ah! I didn't check.

However, the dar people claim that par is used transparently, but I think 
it is far from being transparent, specially if you backup to dvd: first we 
have to copy (maybe with dd_rescue) the files to disk, then repair. It can 
not retrieve and correct on the fly because the media is not writeable. 
And the, lets say, recovery data (par files) are not included inside the 
backup stream.

I still miss what the old pcbackup (from central point software) program 
could do under dos twenty years ago: I have backups from that time made in 
80 floppies, and it is capable of correcting the errors really on the fly, 
after this many years.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGR1vTtTMYHG2NR9URAi2jAKCBuB7G6c2XmGf0dcpRYE49v9YtggCfYMCC
Y8nRnkBgKf8n3JkoU0y6Wz0=
=xXPa
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Registration Account]

I have raised a bug because the current system back in yast only offers
an incremental backup - so if you loose the first achieve your stuffed.
The reply came back and described it as a Hugh code re-write within Yast
and it was just a font end based on ---I forgot: I suggested that the
new front end  should be written around CPIO . The bug is now Assigned
for a LATER status.. - Cross you fingers everyone
Scott
Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> The Friday 2007-02-23 at 12:39 -, David Bolt wrote:
>
> >> What is par2?
> > The home page describing it is here:
>
> > http://parchive.sourceforge.net/>
>
> Interestingly, the distro has a "par" from that same page, but not "par".
> There isn't even a man page for "par". I guess from what you say that
> they
> are not the same. [...] I saw a link explaining the differences.
>
> What would I need to compile - from sourceforge?
>
>  gpar2-0.3.tar.gz
> libpar2-0.2.tar.gz
> par2cmdline-0.4.tar.gz
>
> Curiously, they have "par-v0.1alpha.tar.gz", when suse has "par-1.1-62"
> [...] AH! It is hidden as "older releases", "par-v1.1.tar.gz".
>
> [...]
>
> The make run (par2cmdline-0.4) fails...
>
> reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: explicit specialization of bool
> ReedSolomon >::SetInput(const
> std::vector >&) must be introduced by
> template <>
> reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: template-id SetInput<> for bool
> ReedSolomon >::SetInput(const
> std::vector >&) does not match any template
> declaration
> reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: invalid function declaration
>
> And a lot more.
>
>
> ...
>
> > With the values I use, I should be able to recreate upto 5 missing
> > files, or significantly more files if dd can copy most of the data.
>
>
> Interesting :-)
>
> >> What are you using, where did you get it from?
> > Source code from sourceforge, patched it to handle GCC4, and then built
> > an RPM for it. I keep copies of it built for multiple versions of SUSE
> > here:
>
> > http://www.davjam.org/~davjam/linux/par2/index.htm>
>
> Ah! So you had to modify them...
>
> But... that is version "par2-0.4-5". At
>  I can only see release 0.3
> (feb
> 2006). Where does the 0.4.5 comes from?
>
>
> >> Now I wonder if the "dar" we have in the distro has that
> implemented [...]
> >> it seems it does.
> > Dar may have PAR support built in but, since PAR2 hasn't been included
> > in SUSE, I don't think it'll have PAR2 support. It may have but, since I
> > haven't used dar, I've no idea.
>
> No, it is "par" - form man dar:
>
> This has of course its limitations, in particular when a data
>corruption occurs in the vital part of the backup, i.e. the few
>first bytes of each slice, and the last part of the archive (the
>catalogue). In case you need to store archive on a bad quality
>medium, you could protect each slice with a Parchive recovery
> file.
>(see NOTES for more information about Parchive, and how to
>transparently run Parchive from dar)
>



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Bolt]

On Thu, 10 May 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:-

>
>The Thursday 2007-05-10 at 01:48 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> I expected the "real" time to be large, as I was doing other "heavy"
>> things (a kdar backup that crashed), but the "user" time I expected to be
>
>I found an interesting thing. I'm doing a test run of dar - after kdar
>crashed I saw the command line it uses and it is not so difficult - and I
>then told it to use "par". I thought it was going to use "par", but no,
>to me surprise it uses par2:
>
>  ...
>  Adding file to archive: /usr/share/susehelp/mecreating PAR file for file
>  /Grande/kdar/system_backup_10.2_20070509.2.dar ...
>  par2cmdline version 0.4, Copyright (C) 2003 Peter Brian Clements.



>and it is the version I compiled, too. Curious!

Very interesting.

>The dar command is told to use par via the option:
>
>  -B /usr/share/doc/packages/dar/dar_par.dcf
>
>which runs that script at the end of each dar slice, I understand. It
>contains:



>So, for creation it calls
>"/usr/share/doc/packages/dar/dar_par_create.duc", which in turn contains
>this:
>
># change according to you need
>PAR=par2
>
>
>I did not touch that, it is dated "2006-11-25". Funny that SuSE contains a
>script calling a program they do not supply.

That's in the documentation, which means it's supplied by the original
authors/packagers, not by SUSE.

>Maybe I'll bug the bugzilla
>chaps a bit ;-)

Maybe bug them to include par2. The sources are the same as from
sourceforge, except for repackaging them as a .tar.bz2, and there's the
patch for it to compile using GCC4.

>(The par calling code is:
>
>exec $PAR c -r$6 -n1 "$1/$2.$3.$4"
>
>with the positional parameters being:
>
>
>

Which explains why par2 can do the same job as par. That dar script
doesn't use any of the features that aren't common to both par and par2.


Regards,
David Bolt

-- 
Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/
RISCOS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
RISCOS 3.6  | SUSE 10.0 64bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
TOS 4.02| SUSE 9.3 32bit  | | openSUSE 10.3a3 32bit
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Thursday 2007-05-10 at 01:48 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> I expected the "real" time to be large, as I was doing other "heavy"
> things (a kdar backup that crashed), but the "user" time I expected to be

I found an interesting thing. I'm doing a test run of dar - after kdar 
crashed I saw the command line it uses and it is not so difficult - and I 
then told it to use "par". I thought it was going to use "par", but no, 
to me surprise it uses par2:

  ...
  Adding file to archive: /usr/share/susehelp/mecreating PAR file for file 
  /Grande/kdar/system_backup_10.2_20070509.2.dar ...
  par2cmdline version 0.4, Copyright (C) 2003 Peter Brian Clements.
  ...
  Block size: 585000
  Source file count: 1
  Source block count: 2000
  Redundancy: 2%
  Recovery block count: 40
  Recovery file count: 1




and it is the version I compiled, too. Curious!


The dar command is told to use par via the option:

  -B /usr/share/doc/packages/dar/dar_par.dcf

which runs that script at the end of each dar slice, I understand. It 
contains:

  # configuration file for dar to have Parchive integrated with DAR
  # to be passed to dar as argument of -B option
  # either directly on command line or throw $HOME/.darrc or /etc/darrc
  # files

  create:
  -E "/usr/share/doc/packages/dar/dar_par_create.duc %p %b %n %e %c 2"
  # 2 stands for 2% of redundancy
  # adjust it to your needs

  test:
  -R "/usr/share/doc/packages/dar/dar_par_test.duc %p %b %n %e %c"

  # note, that you may need to set the path to dar_par_test.duc
  # and dar_par_create.duc



So, for creation it calls 
"/usr/share/doc/packages/dar/dar_par_create.duc", which in turn contains 
this:

# change according to you need
PAR=par2


I did not touch that, it is dated "2006-11-25". Funny that SuSE contains a 
script calling a program they do not supply. Maybe I'll bug the bugzilla 
chaps a bit ;-)



(The par calling code is:

exec $PAR c -r$6 -n1 "$1/$2.$3.$4"

with the positional parameters being:

 


- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGQoR3tTMYHG2NR9URAsM2AJ9JcbvBJp8BZWOPmgRerHJkoKJCCgCfa4Kq
Cpsq7ttc1XTXGS4FnK0aFAI=
=TCc4
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Wednesday 2007-05-09 at 21:20 +0200, I wrote:

> Right now I'm running it like (275M free):
> 
>   time nice par2 c -m500 -s1024000 -c250 -l recovery *avi
> 
> Block size: 1024000
> Source file count: 11
> Source block count: 4305
> Recovery block count: 250
> Recovery file count: 8
> ...


It finished like this:

...
Computing Reed Solomon matrix.
Constructing: done.
Wrote 25600 bytes to disk
Writing recovery packets
Writing verification packets
Done

real146m40.182s
user71m22.424s
sys 1m17.965s


I expected the "real" time to be large, as I was doing other "heavy" 
things (a kdar backup that crashed), but the "user" time I expected to be 
the same of previous times. I see par2 is very heavy computation 
program... I wonder if it could be optimised.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/crypta.mm_dvd1.x> du -hc recovery*
88K recovery.par2
1,1Mrecovery.vol000+001.par2
2,2Mrecovery.vol001+002.par2
4,2Mrecovery.vol003+004.par2
8,2Mrecovery.vol007+008.par2
17M recovery.vol015+016.par2
32M recovery.vol031+032.par2
64M recovery.vol063+064.par2
121Mrecovery.vol127+123.par2
248Mtotal

I ended with 28 MiB of free space. Not bad.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGQl3qtTMYHG2NR9URAhGUAJ0fHcWoVrwJ8oN+Ly4lMiU+BN/6hQCfdjny
Lygk2WwNDaEqSNb49w4ddXk=
=9frD
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-05-07 at 13:55 +0100, David Bolt wrote:

> I'd use something like this:
> 
> par2 c -s1024000 -c235 -l  *
> 
> c is to create the recovery files
> -s1024000 gives a recovery block size of a little under 1MB
> -c235 says to create 235 recovery blocks
> -l limits the size of the par2 recovery files to just a bit bigger than
> the largest file.
> 
> That should create a few recovery files which, with the par2 overheads,
> occupy about 235MB and leave around 15MB free. 


I had already done one run using simply the default options (ie, none, 
meaning 5% redundancy, except for a -500). Even though I compiled with 
"-O3 -march=pentium4" it is terribly slow, almost one hour.

Right now I'm running it like (275M free):

  time nice par2 c -m500 -s1024000 -c250 -l recovery *avi

Block size: 1024000
Source file count: 11
Source block count: 4305
Recovery block count: 250
Recovery file count: 8
...

Memory usage is currently:

  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND
  10  250m 247m  664 R 53.3 24.4   2:26.62 par2


> Once it's finished, and
> if you're the sort of person that just has to be sure, you can verify
> the freshly created files using:
> 
> par2 v 

Yep, I did that on the dvd after burning it. It took 15 minutes.

> 
> And, if there's a failure after the contents has been burnt, copy the
> contents off the DVD using either dd or ddrescue, and then use:
> 
> par2 r 
> 
> 
> Now, the bad news is that for a dozen files, totalling a bit over 4GB,
> you may not be able to rebuild a broken file with only 235 blocks
> without rescuing as much data as possible from the DVD. My guess is that
> the files are around 350MB[0], which means you'd need at least 350-360
> recovery blocks to rebuild a completely missing file. As long as only
> one file is broken, and you manage to recover more than a third of the
> data, there _should_ be enough to rebuild it.

Well, I assume I would be able to recover a damage of less than 5%, ie, 
about 210MiB. If the damage affects only some sectors and I can read the 
damaged file with errors ignored (supposedly, dd_rescue does that), it 
should be repairable. And, in any case, it's better than nothing ;-)

Also, my usual practice is to burn two copies on DVD (ie, 2 DVDs), so if a 
file is damaged I can probably recover it from the other copy.


> There are ways to reduce this problem, and the one I chose was to limit
> the size of files to 100MB[1]. That, combined with my using 535 blocks
> means I can have 5 completely unreadable files before I am unable to
> recover. And when I want to recombine the split files, I just use cat
> :-)

A possibility, yes...

> 
> 
> [0] After rounding to the nearest MB:
> 4.35GB - 250MB = 4.1GB
> 4.1GB / 12 = 350MB

Yes, your assumption is correct.

> 
> [1] split -b 100M -a 3 -d  .
>^
> That is to allow creation of names in the format filename.000,
> filename.001, etc.

Yep, I use the basename "recovery", making it obvious what they are.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGQh7vtTMYHG2NR9URAhefAJoCnXL+ud3nJpp8/baZhEZ0flQ7rQCfTXP0
R5/UuwMgmdjxAan8JNzf4XA=
=dMSb
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Bolt]

On Mon, 7 May 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:-

>
>The Monday 2007-05-07 at 03:46 +0200, I wrote:
>
>> Yes, I saw then. I ran a few scripts that form a test suite, no errors.
>> Now I'm preparing a dvd backup, and will add par2 files to it, too. I have
>> to study the possible command options first.
>
>I'm baffled...
>
>Ok, I have a dozen of big files (roughly the same size each) in a dvd,
>with about 250 MB free space that I could use for par data. What options
>should I use to create them?

I'd use something like this:

par2 c -s1024000 -c235 -l  *

c is to create the recovery files
-s1024000 gives a recovery block size of a little under 1MB
-c235 says to create 235 recovery blocks
-l limits the size of the par2 recovery files to just a bit bigger than
the largest file.

That should create a few recovery files which, with the par2 overheads,
occupy about 235MB and leave around 15MB free. Once it's finished, and
if you're the sort of person that just has to be sure, you can verify
the freshly created files using:

par2 v 

And, if there's a failure after the contents has been burnt, copy the
contents off the DVD using either dd or ddrescue, and then use:

par2 r 


Now, the bad news is that for a dozen files, totalling a bit over 4GB,
you may not be able to rebuild a broken file with only 235 blocks
without rescuing as much data as possible from the DVD. My guess is that
the files are around 350MB[0], which means you'd need at least 350-360
recovery blocks to rebuild a completely missing file. As long as only
one file is broken, and you manage to recover more than a third of the
data, there _should_ be enough to rebuild it.

There are ways to reduce this problem, and the one I chose was to limit
the size of files to 100MB[1]. That, combined with my using 535 blocks
means I can have 5 completely unreadable files before I am unable to
recover. And when I want to recombine the split files, I just use cat
:-)


[0] After rounding to the nearest MB:
4.35GB - 250MB = 4.1GB
4.1GB / 12 = 350MB

[1] split -b 100M -a 3 -d  .
   ^
That is to allow creation of names in the format filename.000,
filename.001, etc.

Regards,
David Bolt

-- 
Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/
RISCOS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
RISCOS 3.6  | SUSE 10.0 64bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
TOS 4.02| SUSE 9.3 32bit  | | openSUSE 10.3a3 32bit
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-05-07 at 03:46 +0200, I wrote:

> Yes, I saw then. I ran a few scripts that form a test suite, no errors.
> Now I'm preparing a dvd backup, and will add par2 files to it, too. I have
> to study the possible command options first.

I'm baffled...

Ok, I have a dozen of big files (roughly the same size each) in a dvd, 
with about 250 MB free space that I could use for par data. What options 
should I use to create them?

I should go to sleep, I guess O:-)

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGPotTtTMYHG2NR9URAhhuAKCL85wJ+gshG4wG1DO54U87Fi46MACfVKZg
UFYJBjRWPfmkkr8UlXNjV8g=
=n/xL
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Sunday 2007-05-06 at 19:23 +0100, David Bolt wrote:

...

> >declaration
> >reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: invalid function declaration
> >
> >And a lot more.
> 
> GCC4 is a lot more strict than GCC3. You need to apply a patch to the
> sources to get it to build using GCC4. If you grab the source RPM from
> my site and unpack it, you'll have a copy of the .diff file you can use
> to patch the sources. Then you'll be able to compile without errors[0]
> :-)

Yes, I already did that, while writing that email. It built fine :-)

But I find curious that the project people haven't adapted their sources 
yet.


> >But... that is version "par2-0.4-5". At
> > I can only see release 0.3 (feb
> >2006).
> 
> That would be the gpar2 release. I don't build that, since I have no use
> for it. I don't build the libpar2 either, for the same reason.
> 
> >Where does the 0.4.5 comes from?
> 
> It's the same as par2cmdline-0.4. I just dropped the "cmdline" bit. The
> 0.4.5 is actually 0.4-5, which is the fifth release of the 0.4 package.

AH!  I see: your par2 is par2cmdline, I understand now.


> [0] You'll still get loads of warnings, but the build will succeed.

Yes, I saw then. I ran a few scripts that form a test suite, no errors. 
Now I'm preparing a dvd backup, and will add par2 files to it, too. I have 
to study the possible command options first.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGPoUGtTMYHG2NR9URAtLDAKCO6C4oKf1ch+Cqpz44aLb7E/G8xACcCDw6
o0YmQArZQidbHpShSRTYxkM=
=O/dW
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Bolt]

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:-

>
>The Friday 2007-02-23 at 12:39 -, David Bolt wrote:



>What would I need to compile - from sourceforge?

>   par2cmdline-0.4.tar.gz

That's all I grabbed.



>The make run (par2cmdline-0.4) fails...
>
>reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: explicit specialization of bool
>ReedSolomon >::SetInput(const
>std::vector >&) must be introduced by
>template <>
>reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: template-id SetInput<> for bool
>ReedSolomon >::SetInput(const
>std::vector >&) does not match any template
>declaration
>reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: invalid function declaration
>
>And a lot more.

GCC4 is a lot more strict than GCC3. You need to apply a patch to the
sources to get it to build using GCC4. If you grab the source RPM from
my site and unpack it, you'll have a copy of the .diff file you can use
to patch the sources. Then you'll be able to compile without errors[0]
:-)



>> >What are you using, where did you get it from?
>>
>> Source code from sourceforge, patched it to handle GCC4, and then built
>> an RPM for it. I keep copies of it built for multiple versions of SUSE
>> here:
>>
>> http://www.davjam.org/~davjam/linux/par2/index.htm>
>
>Ah! So you had to modify them...

Yes and no. The sources are the same as those from sourceforge. As a
part of the building process RPM applies the patch so they build using
GCC4.

>But... that is version "par2-0.4-5". At
> I can only see release 0.3 (feb
>2006).

That would be the gpar2 release. I don't build that, since I have no use
for it. I don't build the libpar2 either, for the same reason.

>Where does the 0.4.5 comes from?

It's the same as par2cmdline-0.4. I just dropped the "cmdline" bit. The
0.4.5 is actually 0.4-5, which is the fifth release of the 0.4 package.


[0] You'll still get loads of warnings, but the build will succeed.

Regards,
David Bolt

-- 
Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/
RISCOS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
RISCOS 3.6  | SUSE 10.0 64bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
TOS 4.02| SUSE 9.3 32bit  | | openSUSE 10.3a3 32bit
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Friday 2007-02-23 at 12:39 -, David Bolt wrote:

> >What is par2?
> 
> The home page describing it is here:
> 
> http://parchive.sourceforge.net/>

Interestingly, the distro has a "par" from that same page, but not "par". 
There isn't even a man page for "par". I guess from what you say that they 
are not the same. [...] I saw a link explaining the differences.

What would I need to compile - from sourceforge?

gpar2-0.3.tar.gz 
libpar2-0.2.tar.gz
par2cmdline-0.4.tar.gz

Curiously, they have "par-v0.1alpha.tar.gz", when suse has "par-1.1-62" 
[...] AH! It is hidden as "older releases", "par-v1.1.tar.gz".

[...]

The make run (par2cmdline-0.4) fails...

reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: explicit specialization of bool 
ReedSolomon >::SetInput(const std::vector >&) must be introduced by template <>
reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: template-id SetInput<> for bool 
ReedSolomon >::SetInput(const std::vector >&) does not match any template declaration
reedsolomon.cpp:54: error: invalid function declaration

And a lot more.


...

> With the values I use, I should be able to recreate upto 5 missing
> files, or significantly more files if dd can copy most of the data.


Interesting :-)

> 
> >What are you using, where did you get it from?
> 
> Source code from sourceforge, patched it to handle GCC4, and then built
> an RPM for it. I keep copies of it built for multiple versions of SUSE
> here:
> 
> http://www.davjam.org/~davjam/linux/par2/index.htm>

Ah! So you had to modify them... 

But... that is version "par2-0.4-5". At 
 I can only see release 0.3 (feb 
2006). Where does the 0.4.5 comes from?


> >Now I wonder if the "dar" we have in the distro has that implemented [...]
> >it seems it does.
> 
> Dar may have PAR support built in but, since PAR2 hasn't been included
> in SUSE, I don't think it'll have PAR2 support. It may have but, since I
> haven't used dar, I've no idea.

No, it is "par" - form man dar:

This has of course its limitations, in particular when a data 
   corruption occurs in the vital part of the backup, i.e. the few 
   first bytes of each slice, and the last part of the archive (the 
   catalogue). In case you need to store archive on a bad quality 
   medium, you could protect each slice with a Parchive recovery file. 
   (see NOTES for more information about Parchive, and how to 
   transparently run Parchive from dar)

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGPhC0tTMYHG2NR9URAom+AJwNj09SaMRL4UWSFDiojK+Bjz+RmgCfc3Bg
vJObtCmQMWPd7AUfN0JEPXM=
=R2fq
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Bolt]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, David Bolt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:-



>par2 c -s 1024000 -c 535 -l  *
  ^  ^
I must be going blind because I didn't notice those spaces. The correct
command is:

par2 c -s1024000 -c535 -l  *


Regards,
David Bolt

-- 
Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/
RISCOS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.0 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
RISCOS 3.6  | SUSE 10.1 32bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
TOS 4.02| SUSE 9.3 32bit  | | openSUSE 10.3a1 32bit
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Matthias Hopf]

On Feb 20, 07 13:39:27 -0800, David Brodbeck wrote:
> Stevens wrote:
> > Auto manufacturers try to predict how their interiors and their paints will 
> > last, too, but until both are subjected to the Texas sun they are only 
> > guessing. The North has salt that kills cars; in the South it is the sun. 
> > Only when they obtain empirical data can they be sure and that data takes 
> > a long time to gather. The same goes for optical media manufacturers. Any 
> > longevity rating is a SWAG, at best, which is the reason for my cynical 
> > view.
> >   
> 
> Sure.  As anyone who's ever had a couple of hard disks fail can attest,
> MTBF numbers are mostly fiction.

Mean time between failure states the average time between to undetected
read errors. This is completely unrelated to MTBB (Mean time between
breakdowns ;)

So de-facto MTBF doesn't tell you much. IMHO it's just good that the
MTBF is usually much larger than the typical disk life time.

Matthias

-- 
Matthias Hopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  ____   __
Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg   (_   | |  (_   |__  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone +49-911-74053-715   __)  |_|  __)  |__  R & D   www.mshopf.de
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Bolt]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Carlos E. R. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:-

>
>The Wednesday 2007-02-21 at 00:40 -, David Bolt wrote:
>
>...
>
>> And for the last few years, just to make sure my backups are going to be
>> recoverable, I have a quite decent[2] backup system:
>>
>> 1, use tar to create an archive;
>> 2, split the archive into 100MB pieces;
>> 3, use par2 to create parity files for recovery in case of a media
>> failure, using a 1MB block-size and 535 recover blocks;
>> 4, burn about 3.5GB of data, plus the 530MB of par2 files to DVD;
>> 5, make a duplicate of the DVD.
>
>What is par2?

The home page describing it is here:

http://parchive.sourceforge.net/>

>I have a guess, looking at sourceforge, that is somekind of
>parity file standard for data recovery,

Yep. Uses the same sort of data recovery system to RAID.

>but I don't see how to generate
>them.

The one I use doesn't have a GUI, although there are the sources for a
GUI available.

The way I use it is to open a console, change to the directory
containing the files I want to create the PAR files for, and then use
the following:

par2 c -s 1024000 -c 535 -l  *

This then creates a series of recovery files, with a total of 535
recovery blocks, each with a block size of almost 1MB, and limits the
size of the largest recovery file to a little over the size of the
largest file.

If I ever need to recover data from a damaged DVD, I would use a small
script using dd to copy each file off the DVD to a directory on a hard
drive, change into that directory, and then use:

par2 r 

With the values I use, I should be able to recreate upto 5 missing
files, or significantly more files if dd can copy most of the data.

>What are you using, where did you get it from?

Source code from sourceforge, patched it to handle GCC4, and then built
an RPM for it. I keep copies of it built for multiple versions of SUSE
here:

http://www.davjam.org/~davjam/linux/par2/index.htm>

>I have found parchive... ()
>> Results are that if there is a failure of the disc, I can use dd to
>> salvage the readable files, recreate the broken ones and burn a fresh
>> couple of copies. The only time this would fail is if both copies of the
>> DVD, or more than 530MB of data on both discs, were unreadable.
>
>This phrase in the wikipedia is interesting:
>
>| Parchive files can be used for other purposes than Usenet transmission.
>|
>|* A patch is available for the DAR backup program SaraB here that
>|  uses PAR or PAR2 to ensure robust backups.
>
>Now I wonder if the "dar" we have in the distro has that implemented [...]
>it seems it does.

Dar may have PAR support built in but, since PAR2 hasn't been included
in SUSE, I don't think it'll have PAR2 support. It may have but, since I
haven't used dar, I've no idea.


Regards,
David Bolt

-- 
Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/
RISCOS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.0 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
RISCOS 3.6  | SUSE 10.1 32bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
TOS 4.02| SUSE 9.3 32bit  | | openSUSE 10.3a1 32bit
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Wednesday 2007-02-21 at 00:40 -, David Bolt wrote:

...

> And for the last few years, just to make sure my backups are going to be
> recoverable, I have a quite decent[2] backup system:
> 
> 1, use tar to create an archive;
> 2, split the archive into 100MB pieces;
> 3, use par2 to create parity files for recovery in case of a media
> failure, using a 1MB block-size and 535 recover blocks;
> 4, burn about 3.5GB of data, plus the 530MB of par2 files to DVD;
> 5, make a duplicate of the DVD.

What is par2? I have a guess, looking at sourceforge, that is somekind of 
parity file standard for data recovery, but I don't see how to generate 
them. What are you using, where did you get it from?

I have found parchive... ()


> Results are that if there is a failure of the disc, I can use dd to
> salvage the readable files, recreate the broken ones and burn a fresh
> couple of copies. The only time this would fail is if both copies of the
> DVD, or more than 530MB of data on both discs, were unreadable.

This phrase in the wikipedia is interesting:

| Parchive files can be used for other purposes than Usenet transmission.
|
|* A patch is available for the DAR backup program SaraB here that 
|  uses PAR or PAR2 to ensure robust backups.

Now I wonder if the "dar" we have in the distro has that implemented [...] 
it seems it does. I'll have to investigate.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF3tVjtTMYHG2NR9URAoCDAKCYvP/7bFcwaKWfSpELGNXFM/0GoACeNh54
T1e7EEXk4qyBiUSA12nhtFM=
=RSim
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up [philosophical]

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Wednesday 21 February 2007 00:07:07 Doug McGarrett wrote:

> I wonder if anyone is seriously considering these problems.  or if anybody
> actually cares.  I would think that scientists care, but what, if anything,
> is anyone actually doing about it?

The work in this area covers a number of areas. One is, of course, the 
physical media. The other is the content. For that, I suggest looking at:

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/

I especially like to discussion of formats. It covers proprietary and open 
standards. 

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/index.shtml

-- 
Roger Oberholtzer
OPQ Systems AB

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 19:28 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

> If things get that bad I don't think there will be much worry about
> backups. Survivors will be to busy just trying to stay alive to worry
> about it.

Later, they would need to rebuild science and technology, or start from 
scratch. Better if some libraries survive.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF25X0tTMYHG2NR9URAiYgAJ900hJbffFOr1XeIR2Irwz+qx9YWgCeIqx2
IDluTrDsMnPNho/oTh4m6fY=
=MjhD
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Bolt]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Carlos E. R. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:-

>
>The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 05:58 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:
>

>> I don't know. They are just as close as your mail box.
>
>Mailing across an ocean is not cheap.

I've found some 8x DVD-R branded Aone that have the media ID TYG02. Not
had a problem with them so far, but only been using then for a couple of
years. Also found some unknown brand 8x DVD+Rs that have the ID
MCC003[0] that I've also only used for the last year, or so, and also
had no problems with. According to:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm>

both of these are supposedly 1st class media and suitable for archiving.
Interestingly, the above URL also states these are often the most
expensive however the last 400 I've bought were only 12GBP per 100.
Works out around 17 euros, or 22USD.

I've also some 4x discs burnt around 5 years ago[1] that are still 100%
readable.

And for the last few years, just to make sure my backups are going to be
recoverable, I have a quite decent[2] backup system:

1, use tar to create an archive;
2, split the archive into 100MB pieces;
3, use par2 to create parity files for recovery in case of a media
failure, using a 1MB block-size and 535 recover blocks;
4, burn about 3.5GB of data, plus the 530MB of par2 files to DVD;
5, make a duplicate of the DVD.

Results are that if there is a failure of the disc, I can use dd to
salvage the readable files, recreate the broken ones and burn a fresh
couple of copies. The only time this would fail is if both copies of the
DVD, or more than 530MB of data on both discs, were unreadable.


[0] Unknown because they're full-face printable, so no branding, and I
no longer have the label for the 50-disc cakes.

[1] From the time-stamps on the files.

Regards,
David Bolt

-- 
Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/
RISCOS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.0 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
RISCOS 3.6  | SUSE 10.1 32bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
TOS 4.02| SUSE 9.3 32bit  | | openSUSE 10.3a1 32bit
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Billie Erin Walsh]

Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Of course. But those things we can prevent, and has been done so for
> centuries. For catastrophes, redundancy.
>
> What electronic data storage is in existence that can be guaranteed to be
> read even one century ahead? You need power. You need electronics,
> technology... if the technology crumbles, would we be able to regenerate
> it, or would be the needed technology be written in discs and unavailable?
>
> DVDs can be eaten by bacteria or mold. They can burn. They are
> susceptible
> to heat and light. The degrade on their own (ie, they fade). Hold on...
> didn't you say that of paper? ;-)
>
> Ok, magnetic storage, then. Uh, oh... what about catastrophic
> electromagnetic pulses? Everything erased in a single blow!
>
If things get that bad I don't think there will be much worry about
backups. Survivors will be to busy just trying to stay alive to worry
about it.

-- 

(o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o)
Billie Walsh
The three best words in the English Language:
"I LOVE YOU"
Pass them on!
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up [philosophical]

[Stevens]

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 17:07, Doug McGarrett wrote:
>  Is it expected that Unix/Linux will exist in the (quite distant for
> us) future?  Or Fortran?  Or even C++?  Or M/S Word?
>

It was thinking like that which caused the lazy programming
that some of us got rich fixing: the dreaded Y2K problem ;-)
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up [philosophical]

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 18:07 -0500, Doug McGarrett wrote:

> Someone else sort of indicated, and I agree, that it is extremely unlikely 
> that any device which can read any digital recording media of today will 
> exist in 100 years.  I would put that number at 25 years, myself, but it's
> unlikely that _I_ will exist in 25 years, so I won't know.  The problem with 
> data is that it is so massive.  A phonograph record could easily last for 100 
> years (and some have) and the mechanism for playing one is not difficult to 
> create, even if all of the existing machines are shredded in some horrible 
> war, but there's no way to put enough useful data on  a phonograph record.

I think there would ;-)

> And in what format would it be?  Is it expected that Unix/Linux will exist in 
> the (quite distant for us) future?  Or Fortran?  Or even C++?  Or M/S Word?

No, the language wouldn't be much of a problem, data is data. The main 
problem would be the hardware: having a dvd reader that still worked. I 
heard the NASA has problems reading their old tapes, and the main reason 
is that there are no readers and computers of that type.


> I wonder if anyone is seriously considering these problems.  or if anybody 
> actually cares.  I would think that scientists care, but what, if anything, 
> is anyone actually doing about it?

Oh yes, absolutely. There are serious projects for that. I think there is 
an OS project that stores data in several formats and the software needed 
to read it. If the software dissapears, the data is translated, or a 
reader maintained. I can't remember the name.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF24yBtTMYHG2NR9URAm+AAJ9Rrs6G/y2vGp+l6q9opH9z4IHP9QCfYNbQ
4m9R4QBcuuzL/MR6sShXV30=
=BSDE
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

David Brodbeck wrote:
> Stevens wrote:
>   
>> Auto manufacturers try to predict how their interiors and their paints will 
>> last, too, but until both are subjected to the Texas sun they are only 
>> guessing. The North has salt that kills cars; in the South it is the sun. 
>> Only when they obtain empirical data can they be sure and that data takes 
>> a long time to gather. The same goes for optical media manufacturers. Any 
>> longevity rating is a SWAG, at best, which is the reason for my cynical 
>> view.
>>   
>> 
>
> Sure.  As anyone who's ever had a couple of hard disks fail can attest,
> MTBF numbers are mostly fiction.
>   
MTBF is essentially an average time, which means some will fail sooner
and others later.  It does not mean you'll never get a bad drive that
fails much earlier than expected.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

Stevens wrote:
> On Monday 19 February 2007 19:55, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:
>   
>> A while back I read an article, aimed primarily at genealogists, about
>> archival quality DVD's. 
>> 
> 
>
> How can any outfit claim 100+ years reliability for any product that hasn't 
> existed for more than a few years?
>
>   

Accelerated testing and extrapolation.  You do the science and you can
get a very good estimate.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 08:59 +0100, jdd wrote:
>
> >> I would have to find a source closer to me than that.
> > don't worry, the quality may have fallen as soon as the test was
> known :-)
>
> X-)
>
> > and who will be here in 100 years to know if Kodal ly or not? whow
> cares?
>
> Paper...
>
> > the only backup reliable is redundency. Think your house can get
> fire or water
> > flood. Spread your valuable data...
>
>
>
> Even backing up two different sets of dvds is no guarantee. A dvd can
> develop a failure in one sector, the second copy in another sector. Would
> there be a way to generate a correct copy from both?
>
> The thing is, we need software that generates reliable backups using
> unreliable media. This was done in the past.
>
> For instance, sectors would have redundancy in another sector of the same
> disk, spread around, so that a read error in a region of the disk is not
> fatal.
>
> I read about a software that created a redundancy set for a dvd, but
> needs
> to be stored somewhere else. If the dvd develops errors, the data can be
> recovered using that software and the error prevention set for that dvd.
> Nice idea, but cumbersome... that data should be integrated inside the
> same dvd.
>
>
I thought CDs (and DVDs?) were written with data interleaving, so that
forward error correction could be used to handle bad spots on the disk.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up [philosophical]

[Doug McGarrett]

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 12:57, Stevens wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 February 2007 07:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 06:51 -0600, Stevens wrote:
> > > How can any outfit claim 100+ years reliability for any product that
> > > hasn't existed for more than a few years?
> >
> > It is done by ageing tests. The item is subjected to stress, temperature
> > extremes, vibrations, humidity, etc, to see how it behaves and make a
> > durabilty prediction. They can be mistaken, but it is the best that can
> > be done.
> >
> > For instance... have you seen in Ikea a demo of a drawer being closed
> > and opened about once per two seconds, with a compressed air piston?
> > Measuring the wear they can predict durability in years for normal
> > ussage of a few operations per day.
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >Carlos E. R.
>
> Sorry, old man, but you mistook my cynicism to be lack of knowledge.
>
> Auto manufacturers try to predict how their interiors and their paints will
> last, too, but until both are subjected to the Texas sun they are only
> guessing. The North has salt that kills cars; in the South it is the sun.
> Only when they obtain empirical data can they be sure and that data takes
> a long time to gather. The same goes for optical media manufacturers. Any
> longevity rating is a SWAG, at best, which is the reason for my cynical
> view.
>
> Fred
>
> (SWAG = Scientific Wild Assed Guess)

Someone else sort of indicated, and I agree, that it is extremely unlikely 
that any device which can read any digital recording media of today will 
exist in 100 years.  I would put that number at 25 years, myself, but it's
unlikely that _I_ will exist in 25 years, so I won't know.  The problem with 
data is that it is so massive.  A phonograph record could easily last for 100 
years (and some have) and the mechanism for playing one is not difficult to 
create, even if all of the existing machines are shredded in some horrible 
war, but there's no way to put enough useful data on  a phonograph record.
And in what format would it be?  Is it expected that Unix/Linux will exist in 
the (quite distant for us) future?  Or Fortran?  Or even C++?  Or M/S Word?

I wonder if anyone is seriously considering these problems.  or if anybody 
actually cares.  I would think that scientists care, but what, if anything, 
is anyone actually doing about it?

--doug
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Randall R Schulz]

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 13:39, David Brodbeck wrote:
> Stevens wrote:
> > Auto manufacturers try to predict how their interiors and their
> > paints will last, too, but until both are subjected to the Texas
> > sun they are only guessing. The North has salt that kills cars; in
> > the South it is the sun. Only when they obtain empirical data can
> > they be sure and that data takes a long time to gather. The same
> > goes for optical media manufacturers. Any longevity rating is a
> > SWAG, at best, which is the reason for my cynical view.
>
> Sure.  As anyone who's ever had a couple of hard disks fail can
> attest, MTBF numbers are mostly fiction.

They're statistical measures. Everyone will experience a different 
actual failure incidence. It's also important to note what counts as a 
failure for the purpose of the values quoted by manufacturers. If they 
don't specify what their MTBF numbers quantify, _then_ I'd be 
suspicious.


Randall Schulz
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Brodbeck]

Stevens wrote:
> Auto manufacturers try to predict how their interiors and their paints will 
> last, too, but until both are subjected to the Texas sun they are only 
> guessing. The North has salt that kills cars; in the South it is the sun. 
> Only when they obtain empirical data can they be sure and that data takes 
> a long time to gather. The same goes for optical media manufacturers. Any 
> longevity rating is a SWAG, at best, which is the reason for my cynical 
> view.
>   

Sure.  As anyone who's ever had a couple of hard disks fail can attest,
MTBF numbers are mostly fiction.
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Stevens]

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 07:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 06:51 -0600, Stevens wrote:
> > How can any outfit claim 100+ years reliability for any product that
> > hasn't existed for more than a few years?
>
> It is done by ageing tests. The item is subjected to stress, temperature
> extremes, vibrations, humidity, etc, to see how it behaves and make a
> durabilty prediction. They can be mistaken, but it is the best that can
> be done.
>
> For instance... have you seen in Ikea a demo of a drawer being closed
> and opened about once per two seconds, with a compressed air piston?
> Measuring the wear they can predict durability in years for normal
> ussage of a few operations per day.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>Carlos E. R.

Sorry, old man, but you mistook my cynicism to be lack of knowledge.

Auto manufacturers try to predict how their interiors and their paints will 
last, too, but until both are subjected to the Texas sun they are only 
guessing. The North has salt that kills cars; in the South it is the sun. 
Only when they obtain empirical data can they be sure and that data takes 
a long time to gather. The same goes for optical media manufacturers. Any 
longevity rating is a SWAG, at best, which is the reason for my cynical 
view.

Fred

(SWAG = Scientific Wild Assed Guess)
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Kai Ponte]

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 03:35, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 12:27 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > What electronic data storage is in existence that can be guaranteed to be
> > read even one century ahead? You need power. You need electronics,
> > technology... if the technology crumbles, would we be able to regenerate
> > it, or would be the needed technology be written in discs and
> > unavailable?
>
> And for 1500 years no one could read ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics,
> carved in stone. Maybe there will be no humans in the future to read our
> backups. Better train those simians!

It is okay - Charlton Heston will be there to help them decipher our writings.

-- 
kai

Free Compean and Ramos
http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/46
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 06:51 -0600, Stevens wrote:

> How can any outfit claim 100+ years reliability for any product that hasn't 
> existed for more than a few years?

It is done by ageing tests. The item is subjected to stress, temperature 
extremes, vibrations, humidity, etc, to see how it behaves and make a 
durabilty prediction. They can be mistaken, but it is the best that can be 
done.

For instance... have you seen in Ikea a demo of a drawer being closed and 
opened about once per two seconds, with a compressed air piston? Measuring 
the wear they can predict durability in years for normal ussage of a few 
operations per day.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2vG+tTMYHG2NR9URAuM8AJ9Rd2ZiwXmNtSej+xWvC8FVit34hQCglWdB
ujK3VT+4er+qiQ25uU/Urxo=
=7nK8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Stevens]

On Monday 19 February 2007 19:55, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:
> A while back I read an article, aimed primarily at genealogists, about
> archival quality DVD's. 


How can any outfit claim 100+ years reliability for any product that hasn't 
existed for more than a few years?

And, more importantly, how can anyone believe their claims?

On that note, I have a bridge for anyone who does.
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 12:27 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> What electronic data storage is in existence that can be guaranteed to be 
> read even one century ahead? You need power. You need electronics, 
> technology... if the technology crumbles, would we be able to regenerate 
> it, or would be the needed technology be written in discs and unavailable?

And for 1500 years no one could read ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics,
carved in stone. Maybe there will be no humans in the future to read our
backups. Better train those simians!
 
-- 
Roger Oberholtzer

OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST

Ramböll Sverige AB
Kapellgränd 7
P.O. Box 4205
SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden

Tel: Int +46 8-615 60 20
Fax: Int +46 8-31 42 23

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-02-19 at 22:54 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> On Monday 19 February 2007 17:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > Paper has a proven track record ;-)
> 
> But it's not without its own vulnerabilities. It gets eaten by bugs and 
> mold, becomes brittle, fades and / or discolors, is quite susceptible 
> to heat etc.

Of course. But those things we can prevent, and has been done so for 
centuries. For catastrophes, redundancy.

What electronic data storage is in existence that can be guaranteed to be 
read even one century ahead? You need power. You need electronics, 
technology... if the technology crumbles, would we be able to regenerate 
it, or would be the needed technology be written in discs and unavailable?

DVDs can be eaten by bacteria or mold. They can burn. They are susceptible 
to heat and light. The degrade on their own (ie, they fade). Hold on... 
didn't you say that of paper? ;-)

Ok, magnetic storage, then. Uh, oh... what about catastrophic 
electromagnetic pulses? Everything erased in a single blow!

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2ts5tTMYHG2NR9URAszjAJwP1E46DAdCgJXKHhtVsUPF4BkmggCdFDdk
YSntsHpUBGj4O/SdCPyU80U=
=u1XY
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 08:59 +0100, jdd wrote:

> > I would have to find a source closer to me than that.
> 
> don't worry, the quality may have fallen as soon as the test was known :-)

X-)

> and who will be here in 100 years to know if Kodal ly or not? whow cares?

Paper...

> the only backup reliable is redundency. Think your house can get fire or water
> flood. Spread your valuable data...



Even backing up two different sets of dvds is no guarantee. A dvd can 
develop a failure in one sector, the second copy in another sector. Would 
there be a way to generate a correct copy from both?

The thing is, we need software that generates reliable backups using 
unreliable media. This was done in the past.

For instance, sectors would have redundancy in another sector of the same 
disk, spread around, so that a read error in a region of the disk is not 
fatal.

I read about a software that created a redundancy set for a dvd, but needs 
to be stored somewhere else. If the dvd develops errors, the data can be 
recovered using that software and the error prevention set for that dvd. 
Nice idea, but cumbersome... that data should be integrated inside the 
same dvd.


- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2tlXtTMYHG2NR9URAvmvAJ0aMavBAbUR5Tp/uTnBf8Vs7z4I5ACfe4lZ
WbNjmIwtTYJa0RCPy/+hK3g=
=ZXZ3
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 05:58 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

> > > archival quality DVD's. The, supposedly, best disks for long term,
> > > stable, storage are DVD+R's, and the best of those come from only one
> > > manufacturer. Taiyo Yuden. They are available through:
> >
> > >
> > http://www.supermediastore.com/taiyo-yuden-silver-thermal-8x-dvd-plus-r-media.html
> >
> > I would have to find a source closer to me than that.
> >
> I don't know. They are just as close as your mail box.

Mailing across an ocean is not cheap.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2teNtTMYHG2NR9URAl23AKCH5UlxjwXNaibBdHm/p5/IvtRdHgCdGpJV
k7+46DHDV+rbvoXcKN3gmRw=
=ksWB
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Billie Erin Walsh]

Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> The Monday 2007-02-19 at 19:55 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:
>
> > A while back I read an article, aimed primarily at genealogists, about
> > archival quality DVD's. The, supposedly, best disks for long term,
> > stable, storage are DVD+R's, and the best of those come from only one
> > manufacturer. Taiyo Yuden. They are available through:
>
> >
> http://www.supermediastore.com/taiyo-yuden-silver-thermal-8x-dvd-plus-r-media.html
>
> I would have to find a source closer to me than that.
>
I don't know. They are just as close as your mail box.

-- 

(o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o)
Billie Walsh
The three best words in the English Language:
"I LOVE YOU"
Pass them on!
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[jdd]

Carlos E. R. wrote:


manufacturer. Taiyo Yuden. They are available through:

http://www.supermediastore.com/taiyo-yuden-silver-thermal-8x-dvd-plus-r-media.html


I would have to find a source closer to me than that.


don't worry, the quality may have fallen as soon as the test was known :-)

and who will be here in 100 years to know if Kodal ly or not? whow cares?

the only backup reliable is redundency. Think your house can get fire 
or water flood. Spread your valuable data...


jdd
--
http://www.dodin.net
Le manuel d'optique de Lucien Dodin
http://lesprismes.free.fr/optique/index.html
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Randall R Schulz]

On Monday 19 February 2007 17:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> ...
>
> Paper has a proven track record ;-)

But it's not without its own vulnerabilities. It gets eaten by bugs and 
mold, becomes brittle, fades and / or discolors, is quite susceptible 
to heat etc.


> --
> Cheers,
>Carlos E. R.


RRS
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-02-19 at 19:55 -0600, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

> A while back I read an article, aimed primarily at genealogists, about
> archival quality DVD's. The, supposedly, best disks for long term,
> stable, storage are DVD+R's, and the best of those come from only one
> manufacturer. Taiyo Yuden. They are available through:
> 
> http://www.supermediastore.com/taiyo-yuden-silver-thermal-8x-dvd-plus-r-media.html

I would have to find a source closer to me than that.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2l2LtTMYHG2NR9URAskMAJ9ueFnkhTTTY22/pqjNgB1KGc1fBwCcC5lv
cc8Y5XLgST3K4l1a4Xvb6as=
=EIcf
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-02-19 at 18:49 -0500, Doug McGarrett wrote:

> > 720K floppies aren't doing so hot, either. ;)
> 
> I have had numerous problems trying to read old floppy disks.  While that was 
> almost the only backup medium, it has turned out to be pretty flaky.  

I have 20 year old backups on floppies (80 per backup) which are still 
retrieavable, no unrecoverable errors.


> It would seem that the perfect backup medium would be carving on stone!

Paper has a proven track record ;-)

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2ksCtTMYHG2NR9URAglNAKCSRZBLveKNCzPYI7bRzs9Rg4nPLwCfclZ+
eRoATMdxjejaOFe5aqiy1Pc=
=rTbK
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Billie Erin Walsh]

A while back I read an article, aimed primarily at genealogists, about
archival quality DVD's. The, supposedly, best disks for long term,
stable, storage are DVD+R's, and the best of those come from only one
manufacturer. Taiyo Yuden. They are available through:

http://www.supermediastore.com/taiyo-yuden-silver-thermal-8x-dvd-plus-r-media.html

-- 

(o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o)
Billie Walsh
The three best words in the English Language:
"I LOVE YOU"
Pass them on!
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Greg Freemyer]

On 2/19/07, Doug McGarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Monday 19 February 2007 14:17, David Brodbeck wrote:
> S Glasoe wrote:
> > Don't know about the glue eating the data layer. I thought labels and
> > adhesives just took off the reflective layer causing a loss of
> > readability. Data is still there if you can replace the reflective
> > coating...
>
> I've found on some cheap media the lacquer on the label side is very
> thin, making it easy to chip the reflective layer and lose data.
>
> I've also erased CD-Rs accidentally by leaving them in direct sunlight.
> The UV seems to bleach the dye out of the data layer.
>
>
> Other than that I've had remarkably few problems reading CD-Rs that are
> a decade old.  CD-RWs seem to suffer more from bit-rot. My 20-year-old
> 720K floppies aren't doing so hot, either. ;)

I have had numerous problems trying to read old floppy disks.  While that was
almost the only backup medium, it has turned out to be pretty flaky.  Old
audio tapes may sound OK, but who knows how many drop-outs there might
be in a digital version of same?  I would guess that a number of major
corporations are finding that their digital tapes are not completely
readable--but you'll probably not read that in the Times' business section!

It would seem that the perfect backup medium would be carving on stone!

--doug


I think the best realistic method is still Micro-fiche.  Still only
rated for 100 years (IIRC) but truly believed to last that long.
AIUI, some companies still save very important documents to
micro-fiche for that very reason.

Greg
--
Greg Freemyer
The Norcross Group
Forensics for the 21st Century
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Doug McGarrett]

On Monday 19 February 2007 14:17, David Brodbeck wrote:
> S Glasoe wrote:
> > Don't know about the glue eating the data layer. I thought labels and
> > adhesives just took off the reflective layer causing a loss of
> > readability. Data is still there if you can replace the reflective
> > coating...
>
> I've found on some cheap media the lacquer on the label side is very
> thin, making it easy to chip the reflective layer and lose data.
>
> I've also erased CD-Rs accidentally by leaving them in direct sunlight.
> The UV seems to bleach the dye out of the data layer.
>
>
> Other than that I've had remarkably few problems reading CD-Rs that are
> a decade old.  CD-RWs seem to suffer more from bit-rot. My 20-year-old
> 720K floppies aren't doing so hot, either. ;)

I have had numerous problems trying to read old floppy disks.  While that was 
almost the only backup medium, it has turned out to be pretty flaky.  Old
audio tapes may sound OK, but who knows how many drop-outs there might
be in a digital version of same?  I would guess that a number of major 
corporations are finding that their digital tapes are not completely 
readable--but you'll probably not read that in the Times' business section! 

It would seem that the perfect backup medium would be carving on stone!

--doug



-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-02-19 at 11:17 -0800, David Brodbeck wrote:

...

> Other than that I've had remarkably few problems reading CD-Rs that are
> a decade old.  CD-RWs seem to suffer more from bit-rot. My 20-year-old
> 720K floppies aren't doing so hot, either. ;)

Those floppies are probably better quality than their contemporaries.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2iyutTMYHG2NR9URAiYsAJ4n8Wch5YBPs1oP/dp4Falbos1wAgCfWpE3
Q5K6FbY5j47xM4DqvmUxmos=
=y07J
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Tuesday 2007-02-20 at 05:12 +1100, Graham Smith wrote:

> The following article maybe of interest to you.
> http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media/

Yes, it is very interesting. I didn't know that dvd+r was more reliable 
than dvd-r, for instance.

It says that the best are made by 'Taiyo Yuden', a name I didn't even 
know about, but might be sold by verbatim. Hum! I have a box of verbatim 
that I can not even burn!

I have also learnt about "http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm"; 
where there is a list of "Media IDs", so that I can who is the real 
manufacturer, classified by quality.

Let me see what I have.

* TDK:  CMC MAG/M01  - CMC Magnetics (Taiwan)   --> 3rd class.
* Memorex:  RICOHJPN/R03 - Ricoh, Ritek (Taiwan, Japan) --> 2nd class.
* Verbatim 16x: MCC/004  - Mitsubishi Chemicals,--> 1st class.
  (data life plus) Mitsubishi-Kagaku Media,
  advnzd AZO+  Verbatim
   (Singapore, Taiwan, India)

So it seems the best I can get, the Verbatim, I can not use because they 
fail with my LG burner! :-/

Maybe I'll have to test more media...

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2iuQtTMYHG2NR9URAvuLAJ41/iw09PKlFfMZKkDJwEnf/Q9kYwCdFOM+
SKXu4FsRoVCPQPq8uOqwHJQ=
=vedg
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Doug McGarrett]

On Monday 19 February 2007 12:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Monday 2007-02-19 at 11:32 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:
> > AIUI, it relates to designed life of the media.  For most CDs/DVDs it
> > is pretty short (a year or two I think. And the glue from the back of
> > the label will eat away your data.  Don't use them.)
>
> The initial designed life was ethernal. A century at least. Actual life
> expectancy after "improvements" is much lower. Well, maybe I'm thinking of
> CDs.
>
> > Check these out: http://www.kmpmedia.com/kodak-gold.html
> >
> > That should be long enough for you (rated 100 to 300 years).
> >
> > FYI: I was curious about the cost. $122 for 100-pack at
> > http://www.datamediastore.com/kodak-cd-r-29150.html.
>
> I wonder if there are more makers claiming similar durability?
>
> --
> Cheers,
>Carlos E. R.

Over many years, I have always found Kodak to be a very reliable outfit.  What 
they say, they mean.  If they promise 100 years minimum, I would take their 
word.  I do not know of too many companies that I would take the word of.  
The difficulty with Kodak, is that if they are not selling a lot of the 
product, it's deleted, so if you decide on this media, you might want to 
consider getting enough to last for a while.  At least until something better 
comes along--which it will, of course.

--doug

--doug
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Brodbeck]

S Glasoe wrote:
> Don't know about the glue eating the data layer. I thought labels and 
> adhesives just took off the reflective layer causing a loss of readability. 
> Data is still there if you can replace the reflective coating...
>   

I've found on some cheap media the lacquer on the label side is very
thin, making it easy to chip the reflective layer and lose data.

I've also erased CD-Rs accidentally by leaving them in direct sunlight.
The UV seems to bleach the dye out of the data layer.


Other than that I've had remarkably few problems reading CD-Rs that are
a decade old.  CD-RWs seem to suffer more from bit-rot. My 20-year-old
720K floppies aren't doing so hot, either. ;)

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Graham Smith]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Monday 2007-02-19 at 11:32 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:
> > Check these out: http://www.kmpmedia.com/kodak-gold.html
> >
> > That should be long enough for you (rated 100 to 300 years).
> >
> > FYI: I was curious about the cost. $122 for 100-pack at
> > http://www.datamediastore.com/kodak-cd-r-29150.html.
>
> I wonder if there are more makers claiming similar durability?
>
> --
> Cheers,
>Carlos E. R.

The following article maybe of interest to you.
http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media/

-- 
Regards,

Graham Smith
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-02-19 at 11:32 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

> AIUI, it relates to designed life of the media.  For most CDs/DVDs it
> is pretty short (a year or two I think. And the glue from the back of
> the label will eat away your data.  Don't use them.)

The initial designed life was ethernal. A century at least. Actual life 
expectancy after "improvements" is much lower. Well, maybe I'm thinking of 
CDs.

> Check these out: http://www.kmpmedia.com/kodak-gold.html
> 
> That should be long enough for you (rated 100 to 300 years).
> 
> FYI: I was curious about the cost. $122 for 100-pack at
> http://www.datamediastore.com/kodak-cd-r-29150.html.

I wonder if there are more makers claiming similar durability?

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2eSRtTMYHG2NR9URAlXrAJ90Tr59VV3QnSsldESIQjVO2szxdwCcDA2/
ZQtFfN2Rt11ihN4t3whOG2M=
=uuM+
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[S Glasoe]

On Monday 19 February 2007 10:32:57 am Greg Freemyer wrote:
> On 2/17/07, Dennis J. Tuchler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
> > understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>
> AIUI, it relates to designed life of the media.  For most CDs/DVDs it
> is pretty short (a year or two I think. And the glue from the back of
> the label will eat away your data.  Don't use them.)
>
> Check these out: http://www.kmpmedia.com/kodak-gold.html
>
> That should be long enough for you (rated 100 to 300 years).
>
> FYI: I was curious about the cost. $122 for 100-pack at
> http://www.datamediastore.com/kodak-cd-r-29150.html.
>
> Greg

Another longevity issue with CD/DVD media is mold and bacteria. Apparently 
in humid climates anywhere, there are molds and bacteria that will eat the 
data layer. Sometimes within weeks. Cool & dry is best for storage. 

Don't know about the glue eating the data layer. I thought labels and 
adhesives just took off the reflective layer causing a loss of readability. 
Data is still there if you can replace the reflective coating...

Sanford's Sharpie brand of markers are OK for writing on the media.

Stan

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Greg Freemyer]

On 2/17/07, Dennis J. Tuchler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?


AIUI, it relates to designed life of the media.  For most CDs/DVDs it
is pretty short (a year or two I think. And the glue from the back of
the label will eat away your data.  Don't use them.)

Check these out: http://www.kmpmedia.com/kodak-gold.html

That should be long enough for you (rated 100 to 300 years).

FYI: I was curious about the cost. $122 for 100-pack at
http://www.datamediastore.com/kodak-cd-r-29150.html.

Greg
--
Greg Freemyer
The Norcross Group
Forensics for the 21st Century
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Sunday 2007-02-18 at 12:42 -0500, James Knott wrote:

> > Three months later, I tried to do a restore, and found that about half the 
> > DVDs had developed read errors. So now I don't trust CDs or DVDs anymore
> >   
> That is why you're supposed to make frequent back ups and keep a few
> generations.  There is always the possibility of media failure, no
> matter what you use.

Yes, but that can be taken into account beforehand by the recording 
program, by using self-correctable byte codes and sectors, so that errors 
in the media (a bad sector, for instance) can not simply be detected, but 
also corrected.

Does that exist in Linux? I have used that method almost 20 years ago in 
MsDos, with floppy backups. Why don't we have that in Linux?

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2OhOtTMYHG2NR9URAoXRAJ9dSe4ExPSbhTEl0tj6nhfNzgFX0wCeKo+o
EHJmuV+Y+dOpsfNbkBprxFg=
=Z6tH
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Sunday 2007-02-18 at 15:30 -0500, Bruce Marshall wrote:

> On Sunday 18 February 2007 15:14, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > I wish we had some open backup software as reliable as that one was, but
> > using modern media, like dvds, for instance.
> 
> 
> I spent a lot of time working with DAR and daromizer which is a front end to 
> DAR. 
> 
> DAR is quite flexible on its output and with daromizer to setup most of the 
> backups...  it worked quite well.

I have dar and kdar on my todo list.


> However.. I found that DVD's are not that reliable...   when  you write 
> them yourself.   And that goes for DVD's created in a TV-DVD-recorder or on a 
> PC.   I don't use DVD's for backup any more.

And that's what I mean we lack in Linux: a good backup program that takes 
into account unreliable media, producing reliable backups even if media 
are faulty. I mean, the backup media has to include sufficient redundancy 
in the low level format to recover from read errors: this is what the old 
MsDos programs did for backing up to floppies and such.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2OabtTMYHG2NR9URAnxDAJ9YfbyLuMLLQZsDiTtvr51sASpiEgCfXa5W
nNEqYAnbpSIJb75nklaom/o=
=Sk9F
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[John Pierce]

So don't use labels--write on the top of the disk with a fine-point marking
pen.  Or, there is a system where the disk can be engraved on the top--
it's called Light-Scribe.  The disks are from Memorex, and I don't know who
makes the drive.  I also don't know if there is a driver for Linux.  Somebody
here will know.  It's pretty neat--my son gave me a music disk written this
way.

Check out http://www.lacie.com/ for their drives and they have a
lightscribe program for linux.

http://www.lacie.com/technologies/technology.htm?id=10024

It's cool
--
John
Registered Linux User 263680, get counted at
http://counter.li.org
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> The Sunday 2007-02-18 at 12:52 -0500, James Knott wrote:
>
> >> A CD is too small nowdays, that could be a reason, but DVDs are more
> >> reasonable - still, you can imagine backing a 500 GB HD to... what, 100
> >> DVDs?
> > Many years ago, I used to back up my hard drive to floppies!  Lessee now
> > 500 GB / 1.44 MB = over 330,000 floppies!!!
>
> Me too!
>
> I still have backups in 360 Kb floppies, and I know they still work, they
> are fully "restorable" - I know because I tried. I used PCtools Backup
> (Microsoft on later days paid them for a limited version of the same
> program to include with MsDos 5 or 6). I had a dual floppy pc and it was
> able to backup using both drives alternatively, without me pressing a
> key.
> It was so fast I barely had time to store a floppy and pick the next!
>
> I wish we had some open backup software as reliable as that one was, but
> using modern media, like dvds, for instance.
>
I also used 360K floppies on my XT clone with it's *HUGE* 30 MB drive! 
Then on my 386 OS/2 system, I used Backmaster with QIC-80 tapes.

Nowadays, I either write an image to a duplicate hard drive, copy to an
external hard drive or write to DVD.
I use KDar for writing to the DVDs.


-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Bruce Marshall]

On Sunday 18 February 2007 15:14, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> I wish we had some open backup software as reliable as that one was, but
> using modern media, like dvds, for instance.


I spent a lot of time working with DAR and daromizer which is a front end to 
DAR. 

DAR is quite flexible on its output and with daromizer to setup most of the 
backups...  it worked quite well.

However.. I found that DVD's are not that reliable...   when  you write 
them yourself.   And that goes for DVD's created in a TV-DVD-recorder or on a 
PC.   I don't use DVD's for backup any more.
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Michael Smith]

With the low cost of fixed storage now, I just use some rsync scripts with a 
fixed or usb hard drive, depending on the need for offsite   Of course, I 
don't do a full backup, but  I don't want to  I'd rather reinstall all of 
my software, giving me a chance to improve on how I had things set up the last 
time.

-Original Message-
From: Carlos E. R. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:14 PM
To: OS-en
Subject: Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Sunday 2007-02-18 at 12:52 -0500, James Knott wrote:

> > A CD is too small nowdays, that could be a reason, but DVDs are more 
> > reasonable - still, you can imagine backing a 500 GB HD to... what, 
> > 100 DVDs?
> 
> Many years ago, I used to back up my hard drive to floppies!  Lessee 
> now 500 GB / 1.44 MB = over 330,000 floppies!!!

Me too!

I still have backups in 360 Kb floppies, and I know they still work, they are 
fully "restorable" - I know because I tried. I used PCtools Backup (Microsoft 
on later days paid them for a limited version of the same program to include 
with MsDos 5 or 6). I had a dual floppy pc and it was able to backup using both 
drives alternatively, without me pressing a key. 
It was so fast I barely had time to store a floppy and pick the next!

I wish we had some open backup software as reliable as that one was, but using 
modern media, like dvds, for instance.

- --
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2LOStTMYHG2NR9URAnUaAJ0eE0IVWScaTU7k3cJm71QbQkxyKACfWeEd
5vh2k/Vuj20MLrnlGPA9S+E=
=t0ZY
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/691 - Release Date: 2/17/2007 5:06 
PM
 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/691 - Release Date: 2/17/2007 5:06 
PM
 
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Sunday 2007-02-18 at 12:52 -0500, James Knott wrote:

> > A CD is too small nowdays, that could be a reason, but DVDs are more
> > reasonable - still, you can imagine backing a 500 GB HD to... what, 100
> > DVDs?
> 
> Many years ago, I used to back up my hard drive to floppies!  Lessee now
> 500 GB / 1.44 MB = over 330,000 floppies!!!

Me too!

I still have backups in 360 Kb floppies, and I know they still work, they 
are fully "restorable" - I know because I tried. I used PCtools Backup 
(Microsoft on later days paid them for a limited version of the same 
program to include with MsDos 5 or 6). I had a dual floppy pc and it was 
able to backup using both drives alternatively, without me pressing a key. 
It was so fast I barely had time to store a floppy and pick the next!

I wish we had some open backup software as reliable as that one was, but 
using modern media, like dvds, for instance.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2LOStTMYHG2NR9URAnUaAJ0eE0IVWScaTU7k3cJm71QbQkxyKACfWeEd
5vh2k/Vuj20MLrnlGPA9S+E=
=t0ZY
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> The Saturday 2007-02-17 at 15:46 -0600, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
>
> > I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
> > understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>
> Do you have a link? Such  a statement without explanation is... well,
> confusing, as you yourself show.
>
> A CD is too small nowdays, that could be a reason, but DVDs are more
> reasonable - still, you can imagine backing a 500 GB HD to... what, 100
> DVDs?

Many years ago, I used to back up my hard drive to floppies!  Lessee now
500 GB / 1.44 MB = over 330,000 floppies!!!


-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

Anders Johansson wrote:
> On Saturday 17 February 2007 22:46, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
>   
>> I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
>> understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>> 
>
> In my experience, the problem is reliability
>
> I made a complete backup to DVD. Immediately afterwards, I verified the 
> backup, and everything was fine.
>
> Three months later, I tried to do a restore, and found that about half the 
> DVDs had developed read errors. So now I don't trust CDs or DVDs anymore
>
>   
That is why you're supposed to make frequent back ups and keep a few
generations.  There is always the possibility of media failure, no
matter what you use.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Saturday 2007-02-17 at 15:46 -0600, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:

> I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
> understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?

Do you have a link? Such  a statement without explanation is... well, 
confusing, as you yourself show.

A CD is too small nowdays, that could be a reason, but DVDs are more 
reasonable - still, you can imagine backing a 500 GB HD to... what, 100 
DVDs? 

Uau.

Even so, it is the easiest media we can get.

Some people backup to an external HD.


There is another reason: reliability. A problem when burning a DVD can 
render it completely useless, you can't go back and burn again a sector. 
Then, they can fail later on, become damaged. It seems they degrade on 
their own.

A good backup media would have to use error recovery methods: not error 
detection, but error correction, it is different: on the byte and sector 
levels. I hate to mention that I still have in a box a few backups made 
around 1990 in something like 80 old style floppies, and those backups are 
fully retrievable (because the program corrects the errors). And it runs 
on old plain Dos...

I would love to see something like that in Linux. It means a different 
formatting method than iso, for instance.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFF2IXctTMYHG2NR9URAtNgAJwMrMyx2Jf1zVguNpTvLrXcZpv1bACgmLYs
yMqhBjlkZhUJdo1FqsrUkAQ=
=GLqG
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

David Brodbeck wrote:
> Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
>   
>> I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
>> understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>>
>> 
>
> They're a bit slow to write to, but other than that I don't see any
> reason not to.
>
> My experience suggests you can't count on CD-RWs for long-term
> backups...like more than a few years.  CD-Rs seem to hold up pretty well
> as long as you don't expose them to direct sunlight.
>   
Then again, there's no point in using CD-RW for long term storage.  As
you mention, CD-R would be better for that.  However, if you're looking
for a "recover from crash" type backup then CD-RW should be fine,
provided you always verify the backup.  No matter what medium you use,
if it's important verify and even make multiple back ups.

In server admin courses, they often teach the proper methods for back
up, including generation management etc.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Anders Johansson]

On Saturday 17 February 2007 22:46, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
> I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
> understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?

In my experience, the problem is reliability

I made a complete backup to DVD. Immediately afterwards, I verified the 
backup, and everything was fine.

Three months later, I tried to do a restore, and found that about half the 
DVDs had developed read errors. So now I don't trust CDs or DVDs anymore

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Sat 17 Feb 2007 21:46, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
>   
>> Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>> 
> __
>
>  Hello Mr Tuchler,
>
>  - at this time I have been having trouble reading CDs because of 
> crumpled Labels
>
>  . . . maybe labels, and damage to the reflective surface on the 
> label-side are a negative factor ?
>
>   

I've only used those stick on labels for music CDs and have never seen
one "crumple".  Those CDs are usually stored in my car, where they're
exposed to temperature extremes.  For computer use, I always use a
permanent marker directly on the CD surface.

However, any back up media can fail, so it's best to have multiple
generations available.

Incidentally, I'm old enough to remember bored computer operators, on
the night shift, backing up to a stack of open reel tapes.  The tapes
were then sent via courier to off site storage.


-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[James Knott]

Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
> I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
> understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>
The only reason I can think of is capacity.  However that depends on
what you're backing up.  If a full system, then it's insufficient.  If a
home directory, then it may be OK.  If you use single use CD-R, then
you'll likely have several generations of backup available, unless you
toss them.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[John R. Sowden]

On Sat February 17 2007 17:25, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> Dennis,
>
> On Saturday 17 February 2007 13:46, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
> > I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
> > understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>
> For me, at least, CDs per se are too small. DVDs can constitue a
> manageable solution for backing up select portions of one's data (but
> still not for most whole-system backups). With multisession writing and
> rewritable media, you have acceptable _backup_ media, but not a very
> good archive solution.
>
> I'm kind of hoping that one of the new DVD formats (HDDVD or Blu-ray)
> will prove useful for backup and, perhaps, archiving purposes, but it
> remains to be seen if it will become economical (cost of drives and
> media) and what sort of longevity and reliability characteristics those
> media formats will exhibit.
>
>
> Separately, does anyone know of Linux software (perhaps a FUSE file
> system) that exploits optical drive packet writing? I've seen such
> things for Windows (simulating an everyday read/write, random-access
> magnetic drive using an optical recorder), though I was always sorry
> when I tried them because they seemed to make my system unstable
> (though that was probably just bad driver coding).
>
> > Dennis J. Tuchler
>
> Randall Schulz
We use DVD-RAM drives and media.  The media is pricey compared to dvd -r and 
-rw, but it is much more reliable.  Double sided (not double layer) media in 
a cardridge costs about $7.50 each.  There is also now media that does not 
require the cartridge, but for backup purposes, the cartridge protects the 
media.  The life is much longer.  Google it.  The problem is, so far, I have 
not found a Linux program to "format" or "write the filesystem" to the media.  
I have to use a windows computer to format the media, then use it.  I format 
using the FAT32 filesyste, but UDF 1.5 and 2.0 are available.

In case you are not aware, DVD-RAM reads and writes just like a hard drive.  
No sequential writes, no ISO files.  You can set up directories just like a 
HD, but, according to a Panasonic engineer, you cannot set up partitions.

Regarding cost of media/drives, I think we are spoiled.  Today, drives and 
media are dirt cheap, compared to yesteryear.

Re: archive, I agree with your comment re: dvd-r.  Archiving should always be 
done on a non-rewritable media.  Actually I bo both, backing up my  DVD-RAM 
media with DVD-R.  Years from now, DVD-R drives and formats will still be 
arround, but DVD-RAM is not very popular, so it might not survive the test of 
time.  I have some backed up data on 5 1/4" floppies, 8" floppies, Zip disks, 
SparQ cartridges, Colorado Optics tape, and Bernouli cartridges.  I abandoned 
my Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I cassette tapes on December 31, 2004 (yeah 
right!).

-- 
John R. Sowden
AMERICAN SENTRY SYSTEMS, INC.
Residential & Commercial Alarm Service
UL Listed Central Station
Serving the San Francisco Bay Area Since 1967
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.americansentry.net
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Doug McGarrett]

On Saturday 17 February 2007 16:53, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Sat 17 Feb 2007 21:46, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
> > Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>
> __
>
>  Hello Mr Tuchler,
>
>  - at this time I have been having trouble reading CDs because of
> crumpled Labels
>
>  . . . maybe labels, and damage to the reflective surface on the
> label-side are a negative factor ?
>
>
> best wishes
So don't use labels--write on the top of the disk with a fine-point marking 
pen.  Or, there is a system where the disk can be engraved on the top--
it's called Light-Scribe.  The disks are from Memorex, and I don't know who 
makes the drive.  I also don't know if there is a driver for Linux.  Somebody 
here will know.  It's pretty neat--my son gave me a music disk written this 
way.

--doug

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[Randall R Schulz]

Dennis,

On Saturday 17 February 2007 13:46, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
> I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
> understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?

For me, at least, CDs per se are too small. DVDs can constitue a 
manageable solution for backing up select portions of one's data (but 
still not for most whole-system backups). With multisession writing and 
rewritable media, you have acceptable _backup_ media, but not a very 
good archive solution.

I'm kind of hoping that one of the new DVD formats (HDDVD or Blu-ray) 
will prove useful for backup and, perhaps, archiving purposes, but it 
remains to be seen if it will become economical (cost of drives and 
media) and what sort of longevity and reliability characteristics those 
media formats will exhibit.


Separately, does anyone know of Linux software (perhaps a FUSE file 
system) that exploits optical drive packet writing? I've seen such 
things for Windows (simulating an everyday read/write, random-access 
magnetic drive using an optical recorder), though I was always sorry 
when I tried them because they seemed to make my system unstable 
(though that was probably just bad driver coding).


> Dennis J. Tuchler


Randall Schulz
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[David Brodbeck]

Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
> I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never
> understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
>

They're a bit slow to write to, but other than that I don't see any
reason not to.

My experience suggests you can't count on CD-RWs for long-term
backups...like more than a few years.  CD-Rs seem to hold up pretty well
as long as you don't expose them to direct sunlight.
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] About Backing Up

[riccardo35]

On Sat 17 Feb 2007 21:46, Dennis J. Tuchler wrote:
> Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?
__

 Hello Mr Tuchler,

 - at this time I have been having trouble reading CDs because of 
crumpled Labels

 . . . maybe labels, and damage to the reflective surface on the 
label-side are a negative factor ?


best wishes

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[opensuse] About Backing Up

[Dennis J. Tuchler]

I have seen advice on listservs not to back up to a CD ROM.  I never 
understood why.  Why is it a bad idea to use CDROMS as storage media?


--
Best regards,

Dennis J. Tuchler
University City, Missouri 63130
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]