Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-09 Thread Clayton
  This looks nuts!  Many of us have no convenient (or any) access to
  characters like this.  I can do some of them in a word-proceesor, but
  certainly not in e-mail or Google, etc.  Whose dumb idea was this,
  anyway?

 But I can, and so can all or most of my compatriots. Remember I was
 talking about the .es top domain name.

 See: áéíóúàèìòùâêîôûäëïöüñÁÉÍÓÚÀÈÌÒÙÄËÏÖÜÂÊÎÔÛçÇñÑ
 and more: ćǵḱĺḿńṕŕśẃź

I can understand why people would want these localized characters in
their domain names.  It totally makes sense from a localization
aspect.

On the other hand, I also really sympathize the frustration Doug expressed.

There may be a Compose key somewhere... but I've never heard of it
used it... being basically monolingual,  with just enough knowledge of
Dutch, German and Spanish to get myself into trouble, I haven't
needed a Compose key, and I suspect the vast majority haven't
either.  It might be a very good idea that this is enabled by default
in .Xmodmap (if it isn't already?  I'm not at home right now so can't
check to see if Carlos' instructions work for me) and that this is
clearly documented somewhere (ie keystrokes for the different chars).
If we can make it clear that typing these chars is relatively easy to
do, this might ease the pain of the transition a little

C.
N�r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)hǾ��i���

Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-09 Thread Per Jessen
Clayton wrote:

 This looks nuts!  Many of us have no convenient (or any) access to
 characters like this.  I can do some of them in a word-proceesor,
 but certainly not in e-mail or Google, etc.  Whose dumb idea was
 this, anyway?

 But I can, and so can all or most of my compatriots. Remember I was
 talking about the .es top domain name.

 See: áéíóúàèìòùâêîôûäëïöüñÁÉÍÓÚÀÈÌÒÙÄËÏÖÜÂÊÎÔÛçÇñÑ
 and more: ćǵḱĺḿńṕŕśẃź
 
 I can understand why people would want these localized characters in
 their domain names.  It totally makes sense from a localization
 aspect.

I would have said it makes total sense from any aspect.  What never made
much sense was not being able to name my domain name using my own
national language and alphabet. 

 On the other hand, I also really sympathize the frustration Doug
 expressed.

No problem, it's easily dealt with - I'll send him a Swiss keyboard. 
We've got tons of unusual characters to deal with. 



/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-09 Thread Carlos E. R.

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The Tuesday 2007-10-09 at 11:10 +0200, Clayton wrote:


See: áéíóúàèìòùâêîôûäëïöüñÁÉÍÓÚÀÈÌÒÙÄËÏÖÜÂÊÎÔÛçÇñÑ
and more: ćǵḱĺḿńṕŕśẃź


I can understand why people would want these localized characters in
their domain names.  It totally makes sense from a localization
aspect.


Yep. However, it will bring new problems. One of them is trying to spell 
directions over the phone  - imagine you wanting to come for a vacation to 
Spain and been told to go to www.españa.com (it exists) :-P




On the other hand, I also really sympathize the frustration Doug expressed.


Actually, you do not need to use those addreses. Very probably they will 
be of local interest only, and if not I guess the owners will also 
register a plain name too, for international usage.


In any case, those strange names have a plain counterpart that is what 
is really searched for in the DNS. For instance, the above link is in fact 
http://www.xn--espaa-rta.com/



There may be a Compose key somewhere... but I've never heard of it
used it... being basically monolingual,  with just enough knowledge of
Dutch, German and Spanish to get myself into trouble, I haven't
needed a Compose key, and I suspect the vast majority haven't
either.


X'-)


It might be a very good idea that this is enabled by default
in .Xmodmap (if it isn't already?  I'm not at home right now so can't
check to see if Carlos' instructions work for me)


I believe it is enabled by default.


 and that this is
clearly documented somewhere (ie keystrokes for the different chars).
If we can make it clear that typing these chars is relatively easy to
do, this might ease the pain of the transition a little


It is documented, but I don't know where. At least, the existence. I 
learnt about it when I first came into linux and tried to find a usable 
editor. I found vi, and I ruan away as if followed by a mad dog: it 
remided me of edlin. Then I saw emacs, and... couldn't run, because 
there was nought else (later I found joe). And emacs insisted on a 
compose key, and a meta key... so I learnt about it.


Also, my computer at the time has a US key and I needed to type accents 
and such, so I found out how to type them in Linux.


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.
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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-09 Thread Patrick Shanahan
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* Carlos E. R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [10-09-07 11:05]:
 The Tuesday 2007-10-09 at 11:10 +0200, Clayton wrote:
  There may be a Compose key somewhere... but I've never heard of it
  used it... being basically monolingual,  with just enough knowledge of
  Dutch, German and Spanish to get myself into trouble, I haven't
  needed a Compose key, and I suspect the vast majority haven't
  either.
 
 X'-)
 
  It might be a very good idea that this is enabled by default
  in .Xmodmap (if it isn't already?  I'm not at home right now so can't
  check to see if Carlos' instructions work for me)
 
 I believe it is enabled by default.

no, and ~/.Xmodmap is not there unless you generate it yourself (since
10.1 or earlier ??).

from cl xmodmap will show present key assignments,

wahoo:~  xmodmap -pk |grep -i compose
 [no output]

   and that this is
  clearly documented somewhere (ie keystrokes for the different chars).
  If we can make it clear that typing these chars is relatively easy to
  do, this might ease the pain of the transition a little
 
 It is documented, but I don't know where. 

examples exist: /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/etc/xmodmap.std

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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-09 Thread Carlos E. R.

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The Tuesday 2007-10-09 at 11:16 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:


I believe it is enabled by default.


no, and ~/.Xmodmap is not there unless you generate it yourself (since
10.1 or earlier ??).


Maybe; my system was upgraded from 8 something, over the years. I could 
have inherited that file, maybe I copied it over.




from cl xmodmap will show present key assignments,

wahoo:~  xmodmap -pk |grep -i compose
[no output]


Not important: I get the same result, and I do have the compose key. The 
string only appears in the comments. The real test is to try to compose a 
char.


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-07 Thread Dave Howorth
On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 23:51 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
 They [.es] started registering IDN domains only two days ago, but that's 
 about 
 all I know. The charset they allow is published:
 
 'á', 'à', 'é', 'è', 'í', 'ì', 'ó', 'ò', 'ú', 'ü', 'ñ', 'Ç' and 'l·l'
 
 but I don't know if there is danger in them or not, nor what is the 
 policy.

If they only started two days ago it's not surprising they aren't yet on
the mozilla-approved list then :) There was a statement of how to submit
another registry for incorporation on mozilla's list, IIRC.

The list of characters looks innocuous to me but them I'm an ignorant
Anglo-Saxon and can only spot characters that could be used to spoof the
'roman' (a.k.a. ascii :) alphabet. Perhaps there are multiple glyphs
that look like e-acute or c-cedilla in some character set or other?!

Cheers, Dave
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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-05 Thread Dave Howorth
On Thu, 2007-10-04 at 01:06 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
 Another curiosity is that the whois for .com do support IDN, but others, 
 like .cl or .es, do not - and they should, as they are interested parties 
 in this.

Also interesting and perhaps relevant is that cl is listed as a good guy
on: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/tld-idn-policy-list.html

Sadly com is not. Neither is es

So if I read the implications correctly, you may be able to register
spoof domains on .com and the whois will spoof you as well. You can't
register spoof domains on .cl and the whois is completely unambiguous
but a pain unless/until they upgrade their whois. Not sure what the
position of .es is?

Cheers, Dave
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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-05 Thread Carlos E. R.

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The Friday 2007-10-05 at 13:13 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote:


On Thu, 2007-10-04 at 01:06 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Another curiosity is that the whois for .com do support IDN, but others,
like .cl or .es, do not - and they should, as they are interested parties
in this.


Also interesting and perhaps relevant is that cl is listed as a good guy
on: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/tld-idn-policy-list.html


I had no idea of this.



Sadly com is not. Neither is es

So if I read the implications correctly, you may be able to register
spoof domains on .com and the whois will spoof you as well. You can't
register spoof domains on .cl and the whois is completely unambiguous
but a pain unless/until they upgrade their whois. Not sure what the
position of .es is?


They started registering IDN domains only two days ago, but that's about 
all I know. The charset they allow is published:


'á', 'à', 'é', 'è', 'í', 'ì', 'ó', 'ò', 'ú', 'ü', 'ñ', 'Ç' and 'l·l'

but I don't know if there is danger in them or not, nor what is the 
policy.




- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-05 Thread Doug McGarrett

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Friday 2007-10-05 at 13:13 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote:


On Thu, 2007-10-04 at 01:06 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Another curiosity is that the whois for .com do support IDN, but 
others,
like .cl or .es, do not - and they should, as they are interested 
parties

in this.


Also interesting and perhaps relevant is that cl is listed as a good guy
on: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/tld-idn-policy-list.html


I had no idea of this.



Sadly com is not. Neither is es

So if I read the implications correctly, you may be able to register
spoof domains on .com and the whois will spoof you as well. You can't
register spoof domains on .cl and the whois is completely unambiguous
but a pain unless/until they upgrade their whois. Not sure what the
position of .es is?


They started registering IDN domains only two days ago, but that's 
about all I know. The charset they allow is published:


'á', 'à', 'é', 'è', 'í', 'ì', 'ó', 'ò', 'ú', 'ü', 'ñ', 'Ç' and 'l·l'

but I don't know if there is danger in them or not, nor what is the 
policy.




- -- Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
This looks nuts!  Many of us have no convenient (or any) access to 
characters like this.  I can do some of them
in a word-proceesor, but certainly not in e-mail or Google, etc.  Whose 
dumb idea was this, anyway?


--doug
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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-05 Thread Patrick Shanahan
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* Doug McGarrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] [10-05-07 19:49]:
 This looks nuts!  Many of us have no convenient (or any) access to 
 characters like this.  I can do some of them in a word-proceesor, but
 certainly not in e-mail or Google, etc.  Whose dumb idea was this,
 anyway?

Feeling somewhat *crass* today?

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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-05 Thread Carlos E. R.

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The Friday 2007-10-05 at 19:47 -0400, Doug McGarrett wrote:


 They started registering IDN domains only two days ago, but that's about
 all I know. The charset they allow is published:

 'á', 'à', 'é', 'è', 'í', 'ì', 'ó', 'ò', 'ú', 'ü', 'ñ', 'Ç' and 'l·l'

 but I don't know if there is danger in them or not, nor what is the
 policy.


This looks nuts!  Many of us have no convenient (or any) access to 
characters like this.  I can do some of them in a word-proceesor, but 
certainly not in e-mail or Google, etc.  Whose dumb idea was this, 
anyway?


But I can, and so can all or most of my compatriots. Remember I was 
talking about the .es top domain name.


See: áéíóúàèìòùâêîôûäëïöüñÁÉÍÓÚÀÈÌÒÙÄËÏÖÜÂÊÎÔÛçÇñÑ
and more: ćǵḱĺḿńṕŕśẃź


However, you /do/ have access to them in Linux. Hint: compose key.

Try hitting: [compose][c][,]  -- yields ç

What, you do not have the compose key? But you do, although you don't see 
it. :-P


It is hidden as a combinations of keys. In mine, it is [shift], 
release, [shift][ctrl]


It is configurable in .Xmodmap.

- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.
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[opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-03 Thread Carlos E. R.

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Hi,

In Spain domain names with international characters ('á', 'à', 'é', 'è', 
'í', 'ì', 'ó', 'ò', 'ú', 'ü', 'ñ', 'Ç' y 'l·l') have been enabled since 
yesterday 
(http://www.elmundo.es/navegante/2007/10/01/tecnologia/1191262954.html)


There is a sample web in Chile:  http://www.ñandú.cl/, and it works fine 
in Firefox in OpenSuse 10.2. However, it doesn't work for commands like 
host, dig or ping:


In an xterm using UTF-8:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ host www.ñandú.cl
Host www.\195\177and\195\186.cl not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)

In an xterm using en_US.ISO-8859-1:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ host www.ñandú.cl
Host www.\241and\250.cl not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)



Is 'host' buggy? I haven't tried suse 10.3 yet.


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-03 Thread Martin Mielke
Hi Carlos,

interesting... I can access the site on Firefox 2.x in OpenSuSE 10.2 but I get 
other codes back:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ host www.ñandú.cl
Host www.\195\177and\195\186.cl not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ echo $LANG
en_US.UTF-8

...is UTF-8 buggy? :o)

Anyway, as for your question... I don't thing host or ping or dig are buggy; 
they just don't know how to handle these international characters, I guess...

YMMV




- Original Message 
From: Carlos E. R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: OS opensuse@opensuse.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 11:59:30 AM
Subject: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Hi,

In Spain domain names with international characters ('á', 'à', 'é', 'è', 
'í', 'ì', 'ó', 'ò', 'ú', 'ü', 'ñ', 'Ç' y 'l·l') have been enabled since 
yesterday 
(http://www.elmundo.es/navegante/2007/10/01/tecnologia/1191262954.html)

There is a sample web in Chile:  http://www.ñandú.cl/, and it works fine 
in Firefox in OpenSuse 10.2. However, it doesn't work for commands like 
host, dig or ping:

In an xterm using UTF-8:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ host www.ñandú.cl
Host www.\195\177and\195\186.cl not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)

In an xterm using en_US.ISO-8859-1:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ host www.ñandú.cl
Host www.\241and\250.cl not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)



Is 'host' buggy? I haven't tried suse 10.3 yet.


- -- 
Cheers,
Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-03 Thread Carlos E. R.

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The Wednesday 2007-10-03 at 03:32 -0700, Martin Mielke wrote:


interesting... I can access the site on Firefox 2.x in OpenSuSE 10.2 but I get 
other codes back:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ host www.ñandú.cl
Host www.\195\177and\195\186.cl not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ echo $LANG
en_US.UTF-8

...is UTF-8 buggy? :o)


It seems the codes depend on the lang setting. I also get the same as you 
with en_US.UTF-8.


Anyway, as for your question... I don't thing host or ping or dig are 
buggy; they just don't know how to handle these international 
characters, I guess...


But somehow it does know? I mean, it tries to translate to escapes. I 
think it should work, anyhow.


Now, if somebody can try in opensuse 10.3...

- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-03 Thread Dave Howorth
On Wed, 2007-10-03 at 12:44 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
 The Wednesday 2007-10-03 at 03:32 -0700, Martin Mielke wrote:
 
  interesting... I can access the site on Firefox 2.x in OpenSuSE 10.2 but I 
  get other codes back:
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ host www.ñandú.cl
  Host www.\195\177and\195\186.cl not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ echo $LANG
  en_US.UTF-8
 
  ...is UTF-8 buggy? :o)
 
 It seems the codes depend on the lang setting. I also get the same as you 
 with en_US.UTF-8.
 
  Anyway, as for your question... I don't thing host or ping or dig are 
  buggy; they just don't know how to handle these international 
  characters, I guess...
 
 But somehow it does know? I mean, it tries to translate to escapes. I 
 think it should work, anyhow.

I think the answer is linked to by the Chilean site:

It should be noted that, even though some programs used in the
Internet, in particular some browsers, already implement IDN and effect
this conversion automatically, others still do not.

See http://www.nic.cl/CL-IDN-policy.html and on Suse 10.2, when I use
the RFC3490-specified encoding, it works:

  $ host www.xn--and-6ma2c.cl
  www.xn--and-6ma2c.cl has address 200.1.123.3

So I don't think there's a bug, just patience until new versions come
along.

Cheers, Dave
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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-03 Thread Carlos E. R.

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The Wednesday 2007-10-03 at 13:30 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote:


I think the answer is linked to by the Chilean site:

It should be noted that, even though some programs used in the
Internet, in particular some browsers, already implement IDN and effect
this conversion automatically, others still do not.

See http://www.nic.cl/CL-IDN-policy.html and on Suse 10.2, when I use
the RFC3490-specified encoding, it works:

 $ host www.xn--and-6ma2c.cl
 www.xn--and-6ma2c.cl has address 200.1.123.3


I will have to read that.



So I don't think there's a bug, just patience until new versions come
along.


I guess so.

I'll have to learn more about how it is supposed to work, first. I found 
another link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_domain_name


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-03 Thread Per Jessen
Carlos E. R. wrote:

 I'll have to learn more about how it is supposed to work, first. I
 found another link: 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_domain_name
 

It's really straight forward - IDNs are primarily for end-user
consumption. In the real world, or rather behind the scenes, they are
ugly looking beasts such as:

www.xn--and-6ma2c.cl

Your email agent and your browser will understand about IDNs, as should
any other GUI, but I doubt if we're likely to see command-line tools
that speak punycode any time soon.



/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Re: [opensuse] Internet domain names with international characters (idn)

2007-10-03 Thread Carlos E. R.

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The Wednesday 2007-10-03 at 18:08 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:


Carlos E. R. wrote:


I'll have to learn more about how it is supposed to work, first. I
found another link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_domain_name



It's really straight forward - IDNs are primarily for end-user
consumption. In the real world, or rather behind the scenes, they are
ugly looking beasts such as:

www.xn--and-6ma2c.cl

Your email agent and your browser will understand about IDNs, as should
any other GUI, but I doubt if we're likely to see command-line tools
that speak punycode any time soon.


Yes, that's what I read. The wikipedia article is quite easy to read. I 
have found webpages doing the conversion to punycode for us to see, but i 
haven't found a command line utility that could be used to output names to 
'host', for instance.


However, a friend discovered that the man page for host and dig (the 
online version) mention that they can be compiled with IDN support, and 
thus do the conversion. It appears that the commands supplied by suse were 
not enabled; I'd like to know why, whether because they are problematic, 
buggy, or what.


Another curiosity is that the whois for .com do support IDN, but others, 
like .cl or .es, do not - and they should, as they are interested parties 
in this.



- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.
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