Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Roy Schestowitz]

___/ On Sun 05 Nov 2006 10:29:53 GMT, [ Kevin Donnelly ] wrote : \___


On Saturday 04 November 2006 23:17, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Kevin Donnelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> That is interesting.  It would be a good idea for Novell to put out some
> additional explanatory material in the next few days, addressing the
> various excitable comments that have been made in discussions on this.

I expect something like this to happen soon.


Thanks, Andreas - that's good to know.


As much as I love Novell, I am beginning to feel a little scared. Not  
only because of the patent FUD to which a door was opened...


http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5912159164.html (Novell layoffs rumored)

I am hoping for some answers to come out which properly clarify where  
I stand as a loyal opensuse user.


Best wishes,

Roy


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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Greg Dekoenigsberg]

The only fly I still see in the ointment is the phrase "individual,
non-commercial developers".  For example, does this mean that a group of
non-commercial developers, or a single developer who decides to sell a
service based on the app he's developed, are not covered?


Leaving the broader deal with Novell aside: the Microsoft promise to 
"non-compensated hobbyist developers" is 100% useless.  From the actual 
announcement, read it at:


http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/community.mspx#ESB

===

"To further encourage these efforts, this pledge provides non-compensated 
individual hobbyist developers royalty-free use of Microsoft patents as 
set forth below Microsoft hereby covenants not to assert Microsoft 
Patents against each Non-Compensated Individual Hobbyist Developer (also 
referred to as "You") for Your personal creation of an originally authored 
work ("Original Work") and personal use of Your Original Work. This pledge 
is personal to You and does not apply to the use of Your Original Work by 
others or to the distribution of Your Original Work **by You** or others."


===

WHAT?

"Personal to You"?

"Does not apply to the use of Your Original Work by others"?

The whole *point* of making software open source in the first place is to 
encourage and assure its free redistribution!


Basically M$ is saying, "write all the 'open source' software you want, 
and we promise not to sue you -- unless you ever give that software to 
anyone else, for any purpose, ever."


It's ludicrous.  I hope you all see that.  The "non-compensated developer" 
part doesn't even matter.


This was nothing more than a pretend promise, written to fool people that 
don't know any better (analysts, CFOs, etc).  A single reading shows this 
"promise" to be *obviously* worthless.  Perhaps the Microsoft legal team 
was hoping that no one would actually read it.


Don't be fooled.  Whatever feelings you may have about the Novell/M$ deal, 
this "promise" makes one thing clear: Microsoft doesn't care *even a 
little bit* about individual open source developers.


--g

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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Rasmus Plewe]

On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 08:57:50AM +0100, jdd wrote:
> Rasmus Plewe a écrit :
> >
> >In fact, Miocrosoft can sue anybody at anytime, just as I can visit my
> >lawyer today and sue you. This does of course not neccessarily mean we
> >have a chance of winning, Microsoft and me[0]...
> 
> yes but any claim saying you wont ever do that is good for me...

OK, I'm willing to make that statement, but only if you also promise
never to sue me. :-)


Rasmus
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[jdd]

Rasmus Plewe a écrit :

On Sun, Nov 05, 2006 at 08:27:51AM +0100, jdd wrote:

Janne Karhunen a écrit :


Novell didn't say it, but Ballmer did. He claimed MS can sue
any other distributor any time.
Microsoft can sue anybody even if there no real 
infrengement... no individual can afford sue from such a big 
company


In fact, Miocrosoft can sue anybody at anytime, just as I can visit my
lawyer today and sue you. This does of course not neccessarily mean we
have a chance of winning, Microsoft and me[0]...


yes but any claim saying you wont ever do that is good for me...

jdd

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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Anders Johansson]

On Monday 06 November 2006 08:16, Rasmus Plewe wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 05, 2006 at 08:27:51AM +0100, jdd wrote:
> > Janne Karhunen a écrit :
> > >Novell didn't say it, but Ballmer did. He claimed MS can sue
> > >any other distributor any time.
> >
> > Microsoft can sue anybody even if there no real
> > infrengement... no individual can afford sue from such a big
> > company
>
> In fact, Miocrosoft can sue anybody at anytime, just as I can visit my
> lawyer today and sue you. This does of course not neccessarily mean we
> have a chance of winning, Microsoft and me[0]...

It's very expensive to defend yourself in a lawsuit. Unless the suit is so 
pathetic that it can be laughed out of court in a week (and even SCO's 
nonsense hasn't been thrown out yet) you will require a ton of money just to 
get through the pre-trial phase so you can get to court and defend yourself

Smaller companies can't defend themselves against things like that, they're 
likely to go bankrupt from the legal costs, so they will rather settle out of 
court immediately, so they at least can survive

Generally you don't hear much about it, because it gets settled behind closed 
doors. But it is, for example, the reason why small web sites close down when 
big companies wave legal documents

A law suit can be an offensive weapon
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Rasmus Plewe]

On Sun, Nov 05, 2006 at 08:27:51AM +0100, jdd wrote:
> Janne Karhunen a écrit :
> 
> >Novell didn't say it, but Ballmer did. He claimed MS can sue
> >any other distributor any time.
> 
> Microsoft can sue anybody even if there no real 
> infrengement... no individual can afford sue from such a big 
> company

In fact, Miocrosoft can sue anybody at anytime, just as I can visit my
lawyer today and sue you. This does of course not neccessarily mean we
have a chance of winning, Microsoft and me[0]...


Rasmus

[0] So at least I'm smart enough to chose not to sue you. 
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Roy Schestowitz]

___/ On Sun 05 Nov 2006 07:27:51 GMT, [ jdd ] wrote : \___


Janne Karhunen a écrit :


Novell didn't say it, but Ballmer did. He claimed MS can sue
any other distributor any time.


Microsoft can sue anybody even if there no real infrengement... no
individual can afford sue from such a big company

so the assert he wont is already a good point

jdd


The  assertion  is  hardly a concern here. Neither  are  the
'royalties'.  It's FUD. It's like the SCO sockpuppet,  which
could  go as far as delaying a city's migration to Linux. If
it  doesn't  make Novell look weak, it sure hurts Red  Hat's
reputation. It may be good (short-term) for Novell, but it's
dreadful for the community as a whole.

With kind regards,

Roy

--
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Kevin Donnelly]

On Saturday 04 November 2006 23:17, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> Kevin Donnelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > That is interesting.  It would be a good idea for Novell to put out some
> > additional explanatory material in the next few days, addressing the
> > various excitable comments that have been made in discussions on this.
>
> I expect something like this to happen soon.

Thanks, Andreas - that's good to know.

-- 
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[jdd]

Janne Karhunen a écrit :


Novell didn't say it, but Ballmer did. He claimed MS can sue
any other distributor any time.


Microsoft can sue anybody even if there no real 
infrengement... no individual can afford sue from such a big 
company


so the assert he wont is already a good point

jdd


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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[jdd]

Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

Kevin Donnelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

That is interesting.  It would be a good idea for Novell to put out some 
additional explanatory material in the next few days, addressing the various 
excitable comments that have been made in discussions on this.  


I expect something like this to happen soon.


I expect mostly Microsoft to publish it's version :-()

jdd

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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Janne Karhunen]

On Sunday 05 November 2006 01:17, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

> > That is interesting.  It would be a good idea for Novell to put out some
> > additional explanatory material in the next few days, addressing the
> > various excitable comments that have been made in discussions on this.
>
> I expect something like this to happen soon.

It's really worth it. Novell seems to go from one PR fiasco
to another. And RH for one has certainly learned how to take
advantage of it.


> > In particular, is Novell suggesting that there is some truth to the
> > suggestion that parts of Linux infringe patents, or is it simply
> > accepting that Microsoft has rights over its own stuff (eg codecs)?  Most
> > comments on the net tend to assume the former, but I would have thought
> > the latter is equally plausible.
>
> Not at all.  We're of the opinion that there are no patent
> infringements right now in Linux and the deal does not imply that we
> think so. There 're just a lot of customers that want to be on the
> safe side and we help to protect them *if* such a case applies.

Novell didn't say it, but Ballmer did. He claimed MS can sue
any other distributor any time. And in a way, this does seem
that Novell helped MS to distribute FUD. Be more careful next
time. Fear that Novell will become MSs next FUD engine is 
really rather realistic. You have already been used in this 
context once. Please don't let that happen again.


-- 
// Janne
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Andreas Jaeger]

Kevin Donnelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> That is interesting.  It would be a good idea for Novell to put out some 
> additional explanatory material in the next few days, addressing the various 
> excitable comments that have been made in discussions on this.  

I expect something like this to happen soon.

> In particular, is Novell suggesting that there is some truth to the 
> suggestion 
> that parts of Linux infringe patents, or is it simply accepting that 
> Microsoft has rights over its own stuff (eg codecs)?  Most comments on the 
> net tend to assume the former, but I would have thought the latter is equally 
> plausible.

Not at all.  We're of the opinion that there are no patent
infringements right now in Linux and the deal does not imply that we
think so. There 're just a lot of customers that want to be on the
safe side and we help to protect them *if* such a case applies.

> The only fly I still see in the ointment is the phrase "individual, 
> non-commercial developers".  For example, does this mean that a group of 
> non-commercial developers, or a single developer who decides to sell a 
> service based on the app he's developed, are not covered?
>
> And as Marcel Hilzinger said:
> "Why are there 2 different points in the patent question? Will there be a 
> difference between OpenSUSE and Suse Linux Enterprise? What about 
> contributors to OpenSUSE.org whose code is _not_ included in the SUSE Linux 
> Enterprise platform? Are they covered by the second statement?"

I hope this gets answerd on our coperate side, I'll forward this,

Andreas
-- 
 Andreas Jaeger, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.suse.de/~aj/
  SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
   GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F  FED1 389A 563C C272 A126


pgpW9LXyph5sg.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Roy Schestowitz]

___/ On Sat 04 Nov 2006 09:02:09 GMT, [ Marcus Meissner ] wrote : \___





So what's the interpretation of the latest news?

Ballmer Invites Patent Talks with Competing Linux Vendors

"Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said his company is open to talking to
other Linux distributors about reaching mutual patent coverage deals
similar to the agreement signed Nov. 2 with Novell."

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2050848,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K616

Let's face it. Microsoft is turning Novell into the next SCO
(according to WinE's lead dev). It's a weapon of FUD.

I would absolutely love to be proven otherwise.


Tom Wickline is _not_ Wine's lead developer. He is just "a developer".
(Alexandre Julliard is the lead developer ;)

Ciao, Marcus


My bad, Marcus. Sorry about the confusion.

I'll keep Opensuse on the boxes until it all clears up a bit. I'm  
still very worried about the IP implications (just FUD; a bark without  
bite) and especially the impact on Red Hat.


If anyone was worth bonding with, it was Red Hat. Microsoft wants RH  
eliminated because it's unable to compete with them. Novell, on the  
contrary, works in tandem, mutually contributing code that benefits  
both sides.


Best wishes,

Roy

--
Roy S. Schestowitz, Ph.D. Candidate in Medical Biophysics
http://Schestowitz.com  |  GNU/Linux  | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Marcus Meissner]

On Sat, Nov 04, 2006 at 08:05:03AM +, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> ___/ On Fri 03 Nov 2006 11:00:01 GMT, [ Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett ] wrote : 
> \___
> 
> >On Friday 03 November 2006 10:57, Anders Johansson wrote:
> >>You're forgetting the natural reaction of people. After every 
> >>announcement,
> >>people (frequently the same people in every announcement) say they've been
> >>using suse for 250 years, but now they are leaving for
> >>Ubuntu/Fedora/whatever
> >>
> >>This announcement doesn't sound like we'll start selling windows, it means
> >>Microsoft will start selling SUSE. To me, on first reaction, that sounds
> >>like a good thing. Surprising as hell, but good
> >
> >Yeah, the annoying thing is to see more FUD coming from inside the 
> >community
> >than from MS itself.
> >
> >argh.
> >
> >Duncan
> 
> So what's the interpretation of the latest news?
> 
> Ballmer Invites Patent Talks with Competing Linux Vendors
> 
> "Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said his company is open to talking to  
> other Linux distributors about reaching mutual patent coverage deals  
> similar to the agreement signed Nov. 2 with Novell."
> 
> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2050848,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K616
> 
> Let's face it. Microsoft is turning Novell into the next SCO  
> (according to WinE's lead dev). It's a weapon of FUD.
> 
> I would absolutely love to be proven otherwise.

Tom Wickline is _not_ Wine's lead developer. He is just "a developer".
(Alexandre Julliard is the lead developer ;)

Ciao, Marcus
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[jdd]

J Sloan a écrit :

jdd wrote:

J Sloan a écrit :



I'm not allowed to connect any computer of my own on this net (and I
would never allow such thing on my own net!)


You would never allow linux on your own net?


I wont allow any alien computer in my net, whatever system 
it runs (and certainly not Linux, much more dangerous than, 
say, windows 98 :-)


jdd
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Roy Schestowitz]

___/ On Fri 03 Nov 2006 11:00:01 GMT, [ Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett ] wrote : \___


On Friday 03 November 2006 10:57, Anders Johansson wrote:

You're forgetting the natural reaction of people. After every announcement,
people (frequently the same people in every announcement) say they've been
using suse for 250 years, but now they are leaving for
Ubuntu/Fedora/whatever

This announcement doesn't sound like we'll start selling windows, it means
Microsoft will start selling SUSE. To me, on first reaction, that sounds
like a good thing. Surprising as hell, but good


Yeah, the annoying thing is to see more FUD coming from inside the community
than from MS itself.

argh.

Duncan


So what's the interpretation of the latest news?

Ballmer Invites Patent Talks with Competing Linux Vendors

"Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said his company is open to talking to  
other Linux distributors about reaching mutual patent coverage deals  
similar to the agreement signed Nov. 2 with Novell."


http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2050848,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K616

Let's face it. Microsoft is turning Novell into the next SCO  
(according to WinE's lead dev). It's a weapon of FUD.


I would absolutely love to be proven otherwise.

Best wishes,

Roy

--
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Lev Lafayette]

On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 05:08 +0100, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
> Kurt Wall wrote:
> > This is now the second time that a distribution and the company behind
> > has sold us down the river. The first time it was OpenLinux and Caldera. Now
> > it is SLES/SLED/openSUSE and Novell. I appreciate the openSUSE != SUSE
> > insofar as openSUSE is, ostensibly at least, a community project, but
> > when Microsoft turns on Novell, _and they will_, I don't want to be
> > around to get any on me. So long.
> 
> >From the FAQ on the Novell site:
> "Microsoft is also pledging not to assert its patents against individual,
> non-commercial open source developers"
> 
> I wouldn't call that selling the users down the river. Independent of
> the fate of Novell the deal will stop worries about MS killing the open
> source movement with patents.
> 

An opinion voiced on another list:

"I wonder whether this is a preliminary to bringing patent infringement 
action against other Linux distributors. After all, Microsoft can't be seen to 
be trying to squelch Linux, as this might be regarded as anti-competitive, 
but trying to enforce patents against distributors who won't sign up could 
be a different matter."

See also:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061102175508403


I hope they're wrong, I really do. But lets face it, in this world every
business preaches competition but actually wants to be the monopoly
provider.


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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, SOTL wrote:

On Friday 03 November 2006 02:02, Michal Hlavac wrote:

Dÿÿa Pi 3. November 2006 03:38 Kurt Wall napísal:



http://tinyurl.com/y7rcmb

Novell has sold out. I don't see how this makes good business sense in
the long term, except, of course, for Microsoft and possibly Red Hat.
You don't make deals with Microsoft, because they'll find a way to
to weasel out of it. Novell, of all companies, should understand this
well. Are memories so fscking short? I'm stunned and astonished.

This is now the second time that a distribution and the company behind
has sold us down the river. The first time it was OpenLinux and Caldera.
Now it is SLES/SLED/openSUSE and Novell. I appreciate the openSUSE !=
SUSE insofar as openSUSE is, ostensibly at least, a community project,
but when Microsoft turns on Novell, _and they will_, I don't want to be
around to get any on me. So long.


When I leave M$ (3 years ago) and choose Suse, I felt free...
Now I am confusing I am deciding to leave suse and choose something
like kubuntu... I like to feel free...


The issue here is Kubuntu does not include Gnome packages and Ubuntu does not
include KDE packages and some people like myself use packages from both.


Please adjust your subject line.
It is really annoying to see that a single paranoid subject is able to set 
headers for a long lasting thread here.


Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[SOTL]

On Friday 03 November 2006 02:02, Michal Hlavac wrote:
> Dňa Pi 3. November 2006 03:38 Kurt Wall napísal:
> > http://tinyurl.com/y7rcmb
> >
> > Novell has sold out. I don't see how this makes good business sense in
> > the long term, except, of course, for Microsoft and possibly Red Hat.
> > You don't make deals with Microsoft, because they'll find a way to
> > to weasel out of it. Novell, of all companies, should understand this
> > well. Are memories so fscking short? I'm stunned and astonished.
> >
> > This is now the second time that a distribution and the company behind
> > has sold us down the river. The first time it was OpenLinux and Caldera.
> > Now it is SLES/SLED/openSUSE and Novell. I appreciate the openSUSE !=
> > SUSE insofar as openSUSE is, ostensibly at least, a community project,
> > but when Microsoft turns on Novell, _and they will_, I don't want to be
> > around to get any on me. So long.
>
> When I leave M$ (3 years ago) and choose Suse, I felt free...
> Now I am confusing I am deciding to leave suse and choose something
> like kubuntu... I like to feel free...

The issue here is Kubuntu does not include Gnome packages and Ubuntu does not 
include KDE packages and some people like myself use packages from both.
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Re: SPAM: Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Miguel Angel Alvarez]

El Viernes, 3 de Noviembre de 2006 19:35, Anders Johansson escribió:
> On Friday 03 November 2006 18:11, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
> > In particular, is Novell suggesting that there is some truth to the
> > suggestion that parts of Linux infringe patents,
>
> No, Novell's position is that there are no infringing parts.
>
> This is just a guarantee that if in future something is found, the
> customers and distributors won't be held accountable
Another quote:
"Microsoft reserves the right to update (including discontinue) the foregoing 
covenant pursuant to the terms of the Patent Cooperation Agreement between 
Novell and Microsoft that was publicly announced on November 2, 2006; 
however, the covenant will continue as to specific copies of Covered Products 
distributed by Microsoft for Revenue before the end of the Term."

-- 
Don't see the world through a window, be open{source}minded, and be free :-)
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[J Sloan]

jdd wrote:
> J Sloan a écrit :

> I'm not allowed to connect any computer of my own on this net (and I
> would never allow such thing on my own net!)

You would never allow linux on your own net?

> sometime you have to deal with situations you don't master. I had the
> ability to use a handfull of VMware licences (I know they are now free,
> but this is recent), but the main OS had to cope with proprietary
> software that could only run with Windows, and anyhow, I was just
> tolerated there

I feel your pain and sympathize with your plight, but it sounds like a
no-win situation. Sometimes it's better not to force the issue.

IMHO it may be better to provide a favorable mention of linux, some
tantalizing examples, and provide pointers to more info, rather than
giving a weak first impression of linux. What you will have, is a bunch
of microsoft-oriented students who have been inoculated against linux,
by being introduced to a weak strain of it.

Thereafter, when they hear about linux, they will say "ah yes, linux, I
remember - it was some sort of windows program, I forget what it does,
it didn't do much. some sort of unix emulator I think, I'm not sure"

Joe


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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[jdd]

J Sloan a écrit :


No, that's bad news - to introduce linux as some sort of dorky toy ms
windoze program is damaging to linux and gives a very bad impression of
it.


not at all. It shows Linux can work very well with very few 
resources, and this is very good.



Anything would be better - linux on cheap boxes


I'm not allowed to connect any computer of my own on this 
net (and I would never allow such thing on my own net!)


, dual boot

I can't neither do so

, virtual

windoze or wine on linux desktops


so no Linux

 - all are better solutions that the

one you advocate.


sometime you have to deal with situations you don't master. 
I had the ability to use a handfull of VMware licences (I 
know they are now free, but this is recent), but the main OS 
had to cope with proprietary software that could only run 
with Windows, and anyhow, I was just tolerated there :-(


I just could trick the system giving my students access to a 
linux serveur located in an external place I did master.


for many windows users, opening a ssh terminal (putty) and 
working with it is simple magic :-) - but here we go OT


jdd


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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[J Sloan]

jdd wrote:
> J Sloan a écrit :
> 
>> I have zero interest in running a captive toy linux session on ms
>> windoze.
>> Linux runs best on the bare metal, but running "linux" as a program on
>> an ms
>> windoze peecee gains nothing, but carries costs and risks.
> 
> there are very big advantages to this.
> 
> think at all the schools and formation instaitutes that use dayly
> windows machines and don't mind to install linux on then, how can you
> teach Linux there? the best way is running virtual machine on top of
> windows.
> 
> I do so for years, now, but VMware is extremely expensive. Xen on
> Windows should be a very good news, for example...

No, that's bad news - to introduce linux as some sort of dorky toy ms
windoze program is damaging to linux and gives a very bad impression of
it. If a school uses only ms windoze, that is the real problem, and it
can be approached in many ways.

Anything would be better - linux on cheap boxes, dual boot, virtual
windoze or wine on linux desktops - all are better solutions that the
one you advocate.

Joe
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Re: SPAM: Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Kevin Donnelly]

On Friday 03 November 2006 18:35, Anders Johansson wrote:
> On Friday 03 November 2006 18:11, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
> > In particular, is Novell suggesting that there is some truth to the
> > suggestion that parts of Linux infringe patents,
>
> No, Novell's position is that there are no infringing parts.
> This is just a guarantee that if in future something is found, the
> customers and distributors won't be held accountable
> This isn't a patent license, it's a promise not to sue

That seems sound enough.  Perhaps it needs developing a bit in some additional 
public statement (assuming that Novell's interpretation is the same).

Another point that needs some more detail is the issue of whether code 
contributed by Novell coders will be "tainted" (or open to an ambush at some 
point in the future) because they or colleagues will have seen Microsoft 
source code.

-- 
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Kevin Donnelly]

On Friday 03 November 2006 17:43, Miguel Angel Alvarez wrote:
> El Viernes, 3 de Noviembre de 2006 18:11, Kevin Donnelly escribió:
> > That is interesting.  It would be a good idea for Novell to put out some
> > additional explanatory material in the next few days, addressing the
> > various excitable comments that have been made in discussions on this.



> But by my reading, the pledge only holds for you using your own software,
> not if you distribute it. And it doesn't apply to others using the work you
> may contribute to Linux. You personally won't be sued, but if Red Hat uses
> your patch, it could be. That's how it looks to me. But if you kept it to
> yourself, how would MS ever know? (I should also note that in Europe, a
> private hobbyist can never infringe any patent with his own private use of
> anything.) So that side is rather pointless. More to the point, how does
> this help if you open yourself up to legal shenanigans as soon as you share
> your work with anyone?

That's really the same Point I was making in a later paragraph:

> > The only fly I still see in the ointment is the phrase "individual,
> > non-commercial developers".  For example, does this mean that a group of
> > non-commercial developers, or a single developer who decides to sell a
> > service based on the app he's developed, are not covered?

Of course, it doesn't really matter what Microsoft says - the important thing 
is whether they can make it stick.  They may claim a lot of things, but 
whether or not they can actually exert direct influence on how Linux is 
developing (and in the past decade they haven't been able to) comes down to 
whether what they claim would stand up if it ever went as far as a court.  I 
don't see that this agreement necessarily makes that more likely.

-- 
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Randall R Schulz]

On Friday 03 November 2006 11:18, jdd wrote:
> J Sloan a écrit :
> > I have zero interest in running a captive toy linux session on ms
> > windoze. Linux runs best on the bare metal, but running "linux" as
> > a program on an ms windoze peecee gains nothing, but carries costs
> > and risks.
>
> there are very big advantages to this.
>
> think at all the schools and formation instaitutes that use
> dayly windows machines and don't mind to install linux on
> then, how can you teach Linux there? the best way is running
> virtual machine on top of windows.
>
> I do so for years, now, but VMware is extremely expensive.

VMWare server is $free$ (though not libre). The Workstation and other 
VMware products are still very pricey, as they always were, but it's no 
longer necessary to give any money to VMware Inc. to use their 
virtualization technology.

Also, as another reference point, Parallels 
() has virtualization that can be hosted on 
Windows or Mac OS X (for Intel processors only) and can host any Intel 
operating system, including a variety of Linuxes. Parallels is far 
cheaper than the cheapest non-free VMware product. They are not 
directly comparable (from a technological standpoint, Parallels uses 
paravirtualization, as Xen does), but I think the existence of Xen and 
Parallels is putting significant market pressure on VMware, which is a 
good thing. For a long time they (VMware) were the only game in town 
(the obsolescent VirtualPC notwithstanding). Now that's far from true.


> Xen on Windows should be a very good news, for example...

I'd say so, though I still prefer to corral Windows within Linux and Mac 
OS X, as I do with my VMware and Parallels setups.

If I had the cash to throw around, right now I'd explore using a Mac Pro 
(which has two dual-core Xeons and a 1067 MHz FSB) to host all my 
computing. Given at least 4GB of RAM and a hard drive-per-OS, I'd set 
up Mac OS X (possibly the Server variant) and use Parallels to host 
both SuSE Linux and Windows XP Pro. (As it stands, I had just put 
together a new Core 2 Duo box when my employer eliminated my group, so 
with no cash flow, the dollar-intensive experimentation has been 
brought to a rapid, though temporary halt.)


All in all, I rather detest Microsoft, but I also acknowledge that as a 
professional (a software professional, no less) I cannot realistically 
afford to boycot MS entirely. Instead I apply a containment strategy.


> jdd


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[jdd]

J Sloan a écrit :


I have zero interest in running a captive toy linux session on ms windoze.
Linux runs best on the bare metal, but running "linux" as a program on an ms
windoze peecee gains nothing, but carries costs and risks.


there are very big advantages to this.

think at all the schools and formation instaitutes that use 
dayly windows machines and don't mind to install linux on 
then, how can you teach Linux there? the best way is running 
virtual machine on top of windows.


I do so for years, now, but VMware is extremely expensive. 
Xen on Windows should be a very good news, for example...


jdd


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SPAM: Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Anders Johansson]

On Friday 03 November 2006 18:11, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
> In particular, is Novell suggesting that there is some truth to the
> suggestion that parts of Linux infringe patents,

No, Novell's position is that there are no infringing parts.

This is just a guarantee that if in future something is found, the customers 
and distributors won't be held accountable

This isn't a patent license, it's a promise not to sue

Disclaimer: I'm not an official spokesman, this is just how I understand 
things 

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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Miguel Angel Alvarez]

El Viernes, 3 de Noviembre de 2006 18:11, Kevin Donnelly escribió:
> On Friday 03 November 2006 14:26, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> > > Yes, though it's unclear from the press release whether the patent
> > > ceasefire is in perpetuity, or merely for the duration of the Novell
> > > agreement (up to 2012, IIRC).  I got the impression it was the latter,
> > > so there is the difficulty that Microsoft could argue in any future
> > > legal assault that one of the leading distro makers explicitly accepted
> > > there were patent issues in Linux.  That's not so good.
> >
> > This one is irrevocable - for ever,
>
> That is interesting.  It would be a good idea for Novell to put out some
> additional explanatory material in the next few days, addressing the
> various excitable comments that have been made in discussions on this.
I'll just quote Groklaw's PJ:

Take a look at  "Microsoft's Patent Pledge for Non-Compensated Developers" and 
read about how it works: 

"To further encourage these efforts, this pledge provides non-compensated 
individual hobbyist developers royalty-free use of Microsoft patents as set 
forth below Microsoft hereby covenants not to assert Microsoft Patents 
against each Non-Compensated Individual Hobbyist Developer (also referred to 
as "You") for Your personal creation of an originally authored work 
("Original Work") and personal use of Your Original Work. This pledge is 
personal to You and does not apply to the use of Your Original Work by others 
or to the distribution of Your Original Work **by You** or others."

So Microsoft is purporting to provide hobbyists "royalty free use of Microsoft 
patents" as if they are understood to be infringed already.

But by my reading, the pledge only holds for you using your own software, not 
if you distribute it. And it doesn't apply to others using the work you may 
contribute to Linux. You personally won't be sued, but if Red Hat uses your 
patch, it could be. That's how it looks to me. But if you kept it to 
yourself, how would MS ever know? (I should also note that in Europe, a 
private hobbyist can never infringe any patent with his own private use of 
anything.) So that side is rather pointless. More to the point, how does this 
help if you open yourself up to legal shenanigans as soon as you share your 
work with anyone? 

> In particular, is Novell suggesting that there is some truth to the
> suggestion that parts of Linux infringe patents, or is it simply accepting
> that Microsoft has rights over its own stuff (eg codecs)?  Most comments on
> the net tend to assume the former, but I would have thought the latter is
> equally plausible.
>
> The only fly I still see in the ointment is the phrase "individual,
> non-commercial developers".  For example, does this mean that a group of
> non-commercial developers, or a single developer who decides to sell a
> service based on the app he's developed, are not covered?
>
> And as Marcel Hilzinger said:
> "Why are there 2 different points in the patent question? Will there be a
> difference between OpenSUSE and Suse Linux Enterprise? What about
> contributors to OpenSUSE.org whose code is _not_ included in the SUSE Linux
> Enterprise platform? Are they covered by the second statement?"

-- 
Don't see the world through a window, be open{source}minded, and be free :-)
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[J Sloan]

Pascal Bleser wrote:
> Michal Hlavac wrote:

> And the OP is citing an article that states:
> "... technology that makes Linux work on Windows ..."
> How qualified is that ? ;)

I have zero interest in running a captive toy linux session on ms windoze.
Linux runs best on the bare metal, but running "linux" as a program on an ms
windoze peecee gains nothing, but carries costs and risks.

OTOH ms windoze on linux could be interesting for several reasons (running
legacy ms windoze programs, or running certain ms-only programs e.g. vizio, on
 a linux desktop)

Joe


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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Roy Schestowitz]

___/ On Fri 03 Nov 2006 14:26:15 GMT, [ Andreas Jaeger ] wrote : \___


Kevin Donnelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


On Friday 03 November 2006 04:08, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

I wouldn't call that selling the users down the river. Independent of
the fate of Novell the deal will stop worries about MS killing the open
source movement with patents.


Yes, though it's unclear from the press release whether the patent ceasefire
is in perpetuity, or merely for the duration of the Novell agreement (up to
2012, IIRC).  I got the impression it was the latter, so there is the
difficulty that Microsoft could argue in any future legal assault   
that one of

the leading distro makers explicitly accepted there were patent issues in
Linux.  That's not so good.


This one is irrevocable - for ever,


Irrevocable or not, the following good essay sheds some light.

ovell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

,[ Quote ]
| Today Novell and Microsoft announced a partnership in which Microsoft
| has made some unlikely-seeming promises regarding Linux. What aren't
| they telling you? First, you can be sure that Microsoft's not out to
| help a competitor. This announcement paves the way for Microsoft to
| implement significant control over commercial customer's use of Free
| Software. And it has significant negative implications for Open Source
| in general.
|
| There are two significant announcements. First, that Novell and Microsoft
| are entering into a patent cross-license, and second, that Microsoft
| is promising not to assert its patents against individual non-commercial
| developers. The bad part is that this sets Mirosoft up to assert its
| patents against all commercial Open Source users. There are also some
| little bonuses for Microsoft, like Novell will help Microsoft turn back
| the Open Document Format and substitute something Microsoft controls.
|
| [...]
|
| SCO's case is foundering, so here's Microsoft's next scheme to charge a
| royalty to users of Linux, and to make Novell into the next SCO. Groklaw,
| a widely-respected journal of technology law, probably said it best with
| their headline on this story: Novell Sells Out.
|
| This entire agreement hinges around software patenting - monopolies on
| ideas that are burying the software industry in litigation - rather
| than innovation. If we've learned one thing from the rapid rise of
| Open Source, it's that intellectual property protection - the thing
| that Open Source dispenses with - actually impedes innovation. And
| the Novell-Microsoft agremeent stands as an additional impediment.
`

http://technocrat.net/d/2006/11/2/9945

After years of vigorously advocating SuSE, I begin to look elsewhere. Sorry...

Best wishes,

Roy

--
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http://Schestowitz.com  |  GNU/Linux  | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
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http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Kevin Donnelly]

On Friday 03 November 2006 14:26, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> > Yes, though it's unclear from the press release whether the patent
> > ceasefire is in perpetuity, or merely for the duration of the Novell
> > agreement (up to 2012, IIRC).  I got the impression it was the latter, so
> > there is the difficulty that Microsoft could argue in any future legal
> > assault that one of the leading distro makers explicitly accepted there
> > were patent issues in Linux.  That's not so good.
>
> This one is irrevocable - for ever,

That is interesting.  It would be a good idea for Novell to put out some 
additional explanatory material in the next few days, addressing the various 
excitable comments that have been made in discussions on this.  

In particular, is Novell suggesting that there is some truth to the suggestion 
that parts of Linux infringe patents, or is it simply accepting that 
Microsoft has rights over its own stuff (eg codecs)?  Most comments on the 
net tend to assume the former, but I would have thought the latter is equally 
plausible.

The only fly I still see in the ointment is the phrase "individual, 
non-commercial developers".  For example, does this mean that a group of 
non-commercial developers, or a single developer who decides to sell a 
service based on the app he's developed, are not covered?

And as Marcel Hilzinger said:
"Why are there 2 different points in the patent question? Will there be a 
difference between OpenSUSE and Suse Linux Enterprise? What about 
contributors to OpenSUSE.org whose code is _not_ included in the SUSE Linux 
Enterprise platform? Are they covered by the second statement?"

-- 
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Daniel Bauer]

On Friday 03 November 2006 17:08, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Friday 2006-11-03 at 10:05 +0100, Daniel Bauer wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > But if the vendor of my door locks starts a dialog with the local
> > housebreaker association, I'll *immediately* replace all my locks, no
> > matter how much they assure that it's only for my safety!
>
> You may find that they do. Not the lock vendor, but the maker: they use
> experts to learn how breakable are their locks.
>
> :-P

ok, you won :-)
-- 
Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland
professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com
Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Friday 2006-11-03 at 10:05 +0100, Daniel Bauer wrote:

...

> But if the vendor of my door locks starts a dialog with the local 
> housebreaker association, I'll *immediately* replace all my locks, no matter 
> how much they assure that it's only for my safety!

You may find that they do. Not the lock vendor, but the maker: they use 
experts to learn how breakable are their locks.

:-P

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[jdd]

Andreas Jaeger a écrit :


This one is irrevocable - for ever,


and if the GPL account is done in the contract like it's 
said in the Novell announce, this is not only good for 
openSUSE but for any app included in openSUSE, even when 
included in other applications (this is forced by GPL)


jdd

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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Andreas Jaeger]

Kevin Donnelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Friday 03 November 2006 04:08, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
>> I wouldn't call that selling the users down the river. Independent of
>> the fate of Novell the deal will stop worries about MS killing the open
>> source movement with patents.
>
> Yes, though it's unclear from the press release whether the patent ceasefire 
> is in perpetuity, or merely for the duration of the Novell agreement (up to 
> 2012, IIRC).  I got the impression it was the latter, so there is the 
> difficulty that Microsoft could argue in any future legal assault that one of 
> the leading distro makers explicitly accepted there were patent issues in 
> Linux.  That's not so good.  

This one is irrevocable - for ever,

Andreas 
-- 
 Andreas Jaeger, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.suse.de/~aj/
  SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
   GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F  FED1 389A 563C C272 A126


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RE: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Administrator]

>
> In as much as I have criticized the monster known as MS, I
> don't think a lot of you really want to go slit your wrists
> open, tear out your hair, and put on sackcloth just yet.  We
> don't even know the complete financial details of this deal yet.
> And I wonder if the same doom and gloomers are the ones who
> have consistently bitched about interoperability for
> MS-Linux. Guess what guys, you can't have it both ways.
>

I'd say this is convenient on both sides now, and the outcome depends upon
how good the two sides are at managing their relationship and the outcome.

It is convenient for MS is it is starting to get attacked for its abuse of
market position, and so the existence of this exercise (and not any results)
is a defence against further major prosecutions of that type.  Any results
will also have the benefit of allowing MS (and the software vendors who
depend upon an MS platform) back into the growing number of places which
have declared themselves as open-source only.

On the Novell / SuSE side it will make it easier to introduce Linux into
existing IT setups which are mostly MS based.  Getting Linux to interoperate
with the MS infrastructure is a real pain, and this pain is a distraction
from the real job.

We should all applaud if we get to the position where, whatever the
underlying infrastructure, the choice of server / desktop OS is determined
by what is right for the job at hand, not whether you can get the thing to
talk properly to the existing infrastructure.

And yes, MS has shown itself in the past to be much more adept at managing
these situations to benefit itself.  They're just doing what any true
believer in capitalism should do.

David


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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Kevin Donnelly]

On Friday 03 November 2006 04:08, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
> I wouldn't call that selling the users down the river. Independent of
> the fate of Novell the deal will stop worries about MS killing the open
> source movement with patents.

Yes, though it's unclear from the press release whether the patent ceasefire 
is in perpetuity, or merely for the duration of the Novell agreement (up to 
2012, IIRC).  I got the impression it was the latter, so there is the 
difficulty that Microsoft could argue in any future legal assault that one of 
the leading distro makers explicitly accepted there were patent issues in 
Linux.  That's not so good.  

In general, though, this is an interesting development.  If it makes Linux 
easier for new people to use as a desktop (because of less issues with 
multimedia), that might be a good thing.  Provided any Microsoft-supplied 
code is kept well-away from core GPL areas (to prevent future difficulties), 
and packaged as some sort of add-on, there should be no ongoing problems - 
after all, development of Linux and free software is not going to stop any 
time soon.

It's also quite a sea-change - who a few years ago would have said that 
Microsoft would even acknowledge Linux as a competitor, never mind "sell" 
services related to it (even through gritted teeth).  This in fact says a lot 
about how the IT landscape is shifting under them, even if Microsoft PR says 
otherwise.  One of the big drivers for this, I think, is virtualisation, 
where Microsoft has been caught on the hop.  They will certainly try to suck 
what they can out of this and spit out the husk, but it's up to Novell to 
ensure openSUSE don't get left with cinders - if they are robust about the 
GPL, that shouldn't be the case.

-- 
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett]

On Friday 03 November 2006 10:57, Anders Johansson wrote:
> You're forgetting the natural reaction of people. After every announcement,
> people (frequently the same people in every announcement) say they've been
> using suse for 250 years, but now they are leaving for
> Ubuntu/Fedora/whatever
>
> This announcement doesn't sound like we'll start selling windows, it means
> Microsoft will start selling SUSE. To me, on first reaction, that sounds
> like a good thing. Surprising as hell, but good

Yeah, the annoying thing is to see more FUD coming from inside the community 
than from MS itself.

argh.

Duncan
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Clayton]

A "wait and see" attitude is definitely called for instead of "headless
chicken" mode.


Ha ha.. come on... headless chicken mode is so much more entertaining
to watch though :-)

I love how everyone suddenly becomes an expert, and provides "facts"
they pluck out of thin air.  They don't watch the webcast... they
don't know the details.. yet they run around waving their tinfoil hats
at everyone proclaiming doom.


C.
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Anders Johansson]

On Friday 03 November 2006 10:45, Marcus Meissner wrote:
> A "wait and see" attitude is definitely called for instead of "headless
> chicken" mode.

You're forgetting the natural reaction of people. After every announcement, 
people (frequently the same people in every announcement) say they've been 
using suse for 250 years, but now they are leaving for Ubuntu/Fedora/whatever

This announcement doesn't sound like we'll start selling windows, it means 
Microsoft will start selling SUSE. To me, on first reaction, that sounds like 
a good thing. Surprising as hell, but good

But time will tell
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Marcus Meissner]

On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 10:36:40AM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thursday, November 02, 2006 at 21:38:00, Kurt Wall wrote:
> 
> > Novell has sold out.
> 
> Let me remember. Nearly exactly 3 Years ago the tune was:
> 
> SUSE has sold out.
> Every company that got bought by Novell vanished.
> SUSE Linux will be dead by 2004.
> Novell destroys every good Product they have.
> Novell is evil and will destroy Linux.
> 
> Now look who's still here and is stronger than ever. We are! The
> openSUSE community. 
> 
> Henne "dont shit your pants, wussy" Vogelsang

I have to agree with Henne.

A "wait and see" attitude is definitely called for instead of "headless
chicken" mode.

Ciao, Marcus
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Henne Vogelsang]

Hi,

On Thursday, November 02, 2006 at 21:38:00, Kurt Wall wrote:

> Novell has sold out.

Let me remember. Nearly exactly 3 Years ago the tune was:

SUSE has sold out.
Every company that got bought by Novell vanished.
SUSE Linux will be dead by 2004.
Novell destroys every good Product they have.
Novell is evil and will destroy Linux.

Now look who's still here and is stronger than ever. We are! The
openSUSE community. 

Henne "dont shit your pants, wussy" Vogelsang

-- 
Henne Vogelsang, Core Services
"Rules change. The Game remains the same."
 - Omar (The Wire)
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Daniel Bauer]

On Friday 03 November 2006 09:13, Pascal Bleser wrote:
[...]
> Just wait and see. Even Sun has a deal with MS, it didn't kill them (if
> something kills Sun, it's their own management - the same can be said
> for SUSE btw ;)).
>
> cheers

Of course it's much better to deal between parties than to fight (not only in 
business). But if the vendor of my door locks starts a dialog with the local 
housebreaker association, I'll *immediately* replace all my locks, no matter 
how much they assure that it's only for my safety!

What ever these M$/Novell proceedings really mean: they for sure are a reason 
to keep eyes and ears wide open. 

So, I'll wait and see (looking very accurately).

Daniel
-- 
Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland
professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com
Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Magnus Boman]

>>> On Fri, Nov 3, 2006 at  7:44 PM, in message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Greg
Dekoenigsberg
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
>>> Yes, you need to switch to KUbuntu immediately. Because of a
corporate
>>> agreement between Novell and Microsoft that nobody knows what it
is
>>> about and that does most likely neither affect you nor the
openSUSE
>>> project at all.
> 
> You're hiding your head in the sand if you actually believe this. 
The 
> implications of Novell's actions today are *crystal* clear to the
rest of 
> the open source world.

Really? And what are they?

> Novell is now trying to claim that *their* version of Linux is free
of 
> patent risks, and that everyone else's Linux isn't.  Section 7 of the
GPL 
> was written *precisely* to prevent this tactic.

Please back this up with facts.

> Here's the real meat of the problem:
> 
> If Novell ever distributes code to any project under the GPL, and
that 
> code infringes a M$ patent, and M$ tries to assert patent rights on
anyone 
> in that patent, Novell immediately loses the right to distribute that
code 
> under the GPL, per section 7.  Eben Moglen, counsel for the Free
Software 
> Foundation, has already said as much.

You obviously didn't listen to the press conference, nor did you read
the FAQ. Whatever stuff Novell distributes (under GPL or otherwise) for
Linux, will already be cleared from MS IP infringements. The deal with
MS says that we have to make sure it is so. So it is a win not only
Novell, but for everyone else in the community.

> You signed a patent agreement with M$ for speculative protection. 
And 
> you'd better believe that the greater open source community will hold
you 
> accountable for your choice.  Novell developers will find it
*incredibly* 
> difficult to work upstream now.

Really. How come that SUN can be involved? They also have agreements
with MS. They are really no different compared to Novell.

> You can't have it both ways.  Either you believe in open source, or
you 
> don't.  And by trying to use "patent protection" as a competitive 
> advantage, Novell has made it clear which side of the fence they
stand on.

So just because RH have a philosophy that it won't use any closed
source, does that mean everybody else have to do the same or be
banished?

> The sad irony: I don't believe that SuSE would ever have made this
deal 
> as an independent company.

You believing doesn't make it a fact.

> I've watched opensuse with interest since its inception.  I always
kind of 
> figured that, as opensuse matured, the opensuse and Fedora
communities 
> might have had opportunities to work together directly.  I guess that

> won't happen now.  Too bad.

Well, if the Fedora community wants to be that narrow, then I guess
there's nothing much the openSUSE community can do about it?


> -- g

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Greg Dekoenigsberg]

Yes, you need to switch to KUbuntu immediately. Because of a corporate
agreement between Novell and Microsoft that nobody knows what it is
about and that does most likely neither affect you nor the openSUSE
project at all.


You're hiding your head in the sand if you actually believe this.  The 
implications of Novell's actions today are *crystal* clear to the rest of 
the open source world.


Novell is now trying to claim that *their* version of Linux is free of 
patent risks, and that everyone else's Linux isn't.  Section 7 of the GPL 
was written *precisely* to prevent this tactic.


Here's the real meat of the problem:

If Novell ever distributes code to any project under the GPL, and that 
code infringes a M$ patent, and M$ tries to assert patent rights on anyone 
in that patent, Novell immediately loses the right to distribute that code 
under the GPL, per section 7.  Eben Moglen, counsel for the Free Software 
Foundation, has already said as much.


You signed a patent agreement with M$ for speculative protection.  And 
you'd better believe that the greater open source community will hold you 
accountable for your choice.  Novell developers will find it *incredibly* 
difficult to work upstream now.


You can't have it both ways.  Either you believe in open source, or you 
don't.  And by trying to use "patent protection" as a competitive 
advantage, Novell has made it clear which side of the fence they stand on.


The sad irony: I don't believe that SuSE would ever have made this deal 
as an independent company.


I've watched opensuse with interest since its inception.  I always kind of 
figured that, as opensuse matured, the opensuse and Fedora communities 
might have had opportunities to work together directly.  I guess that 
won't happen now.  Too bad.


--g

On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, Pascal Bleser wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Andreas Hanke wrote:

Michal Hlavac schrieb:

When I leave M$ (3 years ago) and choose Suse, I felt free...
Now I am confusing I am deciding to leave suse and choose something like
kubuntu... I like to feel free...



And you just got to switch to [KX]?Ubuntu, which Shuttleworth will sell
to Sun, which already has a deal with MS *g* ;)

cheers
- --
 -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
 /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
_\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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--
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Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Pascal Bleser]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Andreas Hanke wrote:
> Michal Hlavac schrieb:
>> When I leave M$ (3 years ago) and choose Suse, I felt free...
>> Now I am confusing I am deciding to leave suse and choose something like 
>> kubuntu... I like to feel free...
> 
> Yes, you need to switch to KUbuntu immediately. Because of a corporate
> agreement between Novell and Microsoft that nobody knows what it is
> about and that does most likely neither affect you nor the openSUSE
> project at all.

And you just got to switch to [KX]?Ubuntu, which Shuttleworth will sell
to Sun, which already has a deal with MS *g* ;)

cheers
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  -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
  /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Michal Hlavac]

Dňa Pi 3. November 2006 09:07 Andreas Hanke napísal:
> Michal Hlavac schrieb:
> > When I leave M$ (3 years ago) and choose Suse, I felt free...
> > Now I am confusing I am deciding to leave suse and choose something
> > like kubuntu... I like to feel free...
>
> Yes, you need to switch to KUbuntu immediately. Because of a corporate
> agreement between Novell and Microsoft that nobody knows what it is
> about and that does most likely neither affect you nor the openSUSE
> project at all.

;) thanks for advice... 
I said, I am confusing... 
You read my mind... We don't know how this agreement affect openSUSE.
But what I know is that I don't like M$ and its practices... So I thing my 
qualm is reasonable...


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Pascal Bleser]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Michal Hlavac wrote:
> Dňa Pi 3. November 2006 03:38 Kurt Wall napísal:
>> http://tinyurl.com/y7rcmb
>>
>> Novell has sold out. I don't see how this makes good business sense in
>> the long term, except, of course, for Microsoft and possibly Red Hat.
>> You don't make deals with Microsoft, because they'll find a way to
>> to weasel out of it. Novell, of all companies, should understand this
>> well. Are memories so fscking short? I'm stunned and astonished.
>>
>> This is now the second time that a distribution and the company behind
>> has sold us down the river. The first time it was OpenLinux and Caldera.
>> Now it is SLES/SLED/openSUSE and Novell. I appreciate the openSUSE != SUSE
>> insofar as openSUSE is, ostensibly at least, a community project, but when
>> Microsoft turns on Novell, _and they will_, I don't want to be around to
>> get any on me. So long.
> 
> 
> When I leave M$ (3 years ago) and choose Suse, I felt free...
> Now I am confusing I am deciding to leave suse and choose something like 
> kubuntu... I like to feel free...

Well, wrt that, that deal gives you more guarantees of freedom:
"The two companies, once bitter rivals, plan to also provide patent
coverage for each other's customers for their respective products, the
source said."
(and guess who has the bigger patent portfolio.. that point is a good
thing for us)

And the OP is citing an article that states:
"... technology that makes Linux work on Windows ..."
How qualified is that ? ;)

But if you actually want to quote a wallstreet article:
"Shares of Novell rose 17.55 percent, or $1.03, to $6.90 [...] Microsoft
shares fell 7 cents to $26.74" (it's a good deal for whom ? ;))

Just kidding.
Seriously, this is becoming pathetic. Do you guys actually *read* the
announcements ?

"Microsoft is buying Novell !!" ... geez... wth

Just wait and see. Even Sun has a deal with MS, it didn't kill them (if
something kills Sun, it's their own management - the same can be said
for SUSE btw ;)).

cheers
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Andreas Hanke]

Michal Hlavac schrieb:
> When I leave M$ (3 years ago) and choose Suse, I felt free...
> Now I am confusing I am deciding to leave suse and choose something like 
> kubuntu... I like to feel free...

Yes, you need to switch to KUbuntu immediately. Because of a corporate
agreement between Novell and Microsoft that nobody knows what it is
about and that does most likely neither affect you nor the openSUSE
project at all.

*Sigh*
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Michal Hlavac]

Dňa Pi 3. November 2006 03:38 Kurt Wall napísal:
> http://tinyurl.com/y7rcmb
>
> Novell has sold out. I don't see how this makes good business sense in
> the long term, except, of course, for Microsoft and possibly Red Hat.
> You don't make deals with Microsoft, because they'll find a way to
> to weasel out of it. Novell, of all companies, should understand this
> well. Are memories so fscking short? I'm stunned and astonished.
>
> This is now the second time that a distribution and the company behind
> has sold us down the river. The first time it was OpenLinux and Caldera.
> Now it is SLES/SLED/openSUSE and Novell. I appreciate the openSUSE != SUSE
> insofar as openSUSE is, ostensibly at least, a community project, but when
> Microsoft turns on Novell, _and they will_, I don't want to be around to
> get any on me. So long.


When I leave M$ (3 years ago) and choose Suse, I felt free...
Now I am confusing I am deciding to leave suse and choose something like 
kubuntu... I like to feel free...
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SPAM: Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Janne Karhunen]

On Friday 03 November 2006 04:38, Kurt Wall wrote:

> http://tinyurl.com/y7rcmb
>
> Novell has sold out. I don't see how this makes good business sense in
> the long term, except, of course, for Microsoft and possibly Red Hat.

Hmm, this really sounds strange. Don't these people learn
from history? Almost every single company ever having 
'co-operated' with Microsoft has been sucked dry from 
every single bit of value they might have. This happens
fast and then you get dumped. One of the latest bigger
examples was Ericsson (when they still made mobile 
phones).

'Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer'


-- 
// Janne
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Carl-Daniel Hailfinger]

Kurt Wall wrote:
> This is now the second time that a distribution and the company behind
> has sold us down the river. The first time it was OpenLinux and Caldera. Now
> it is SLES/SLED/openSUSE and Novell. I appreciate the openSUSE != SUSE
> insofar as openSUSE is, ostensibly at least, a community project, but
> when Microsoft turns on Novell, _and they will_, I don't want to be
> around to get any on me. So long.

>From the FAQ on the Novell site:
"Microsoft is also pledging not to assert its patents against individual,
non-commercial open source developers"

I wouldn't call that selling the users down the river. Independent of
the fate of Novell the deal will stop worries about MS killing the open
source movement with patents.

Regards,
Carl-Daniel
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Re: [opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[John Meyer]

In as much as I have criticized the monster known as MS, I don't think a
lot of you really want to go slit your wrists open, tear out your hair,
and put on sackcloth just yet.  We don't even know the complete
financial details of this deal yet.
And I wonder if the same doom and gloomers are the ones who have
consistently bitched about interoperability for MS-Linux. Guess what
guys, you can't have it both ways.

Kurt Wall wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/y7rcmb
>
> Novell has sold out. I don't see how this makes good business sense in
> the long term, except, of course, for Microsoft and possibly Red Hat. 
> You don't make deals with Microsoft, because they'll find a way to
> to weasel out of it. Novell, of all companies, should understand this
> well. Are memories so fscking short? I'm stunned and astonished.
>
> This is now the second time that a distribution and the company behind
> has sold us down the river. The first time it was OpenLinux and Caldera. Now
> it is SLES/SLED/openSUSE and Novell. I appreciate the openSUSE != SUSE
> insofar as openSUSE is, ostensibly at least, a community project, but
> when Microsoft turns on Novell, _and they will_, I don't want to be
> around to get any on me. So long.
>
> Begrudgingly, Red Hat and Fedora have another customer.
>
> Kurt
>   

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[opensuse] So Long openSuSe

[Kurt Wall]

http://tinyurl.com/y7rcmb

Novell has sold out. I don't see how this makes good business sense in
the long term, except, of course, for Microsoft and possibly Red Hat. 
You don't make deals with Microsoft, because they'll find a way to
to weasel out of it. Novell, of all companies, should understand this
well. Are memories so fscking short? I'm stunned and astonished.

This is now the second time that a distribution and the company behind
has sold us down the river. The first time it was OpenLinux and Caldera. Now
it is SLES/SLED/openSUSE and Novell. I appreciate the openSUSE != SUSE
insofar as openSUSE is, ostensibly at least, a community project, but
when Microsoft turns on Novell, _and they will_, I don't want to be
around to get any on me. So long.

Begrudgingly, Red Hat and Fedora have another customer.

Kurt
-- 
Reporter, n.:
A writer who guesses his way to the truth and dispels it with a
tempest of words.
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
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