Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
Am Wednesday 08 November 2006 00:44 schrieb Marcel Mourguiart: 2006/11/7, Adrian Schröter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Two weeks of vacation and now such big inbox ;) Am Saturday 04 November 2006 14:01 schrieb Pascal Bleser: ... The fact that Novell might violate the GPL if there is an IP litigation case against other Linux businesses (e.g. Redhat) and if MS wins that litigation case in court, it would mean that e.g. Redhat would be condemned, but not Novell. This is a pretty hypothetical theory, as there hasn't been any successful IP litigation claim against the Linux kernel or other opensource projects until now (that's what SCO tried to do). Just to clarify this (as a non-lawyer without official opinion ;): 1. It is right that it is not allowed to limit the rights of GPL software via patents (or in any other ways). 2. It is right that this can't get workarounded by such an agreement. But consequence is that no one (neither Novell or MS or someone else) is allowed to put software under GPL, if the software is protected by other rules (like a patent). It can not be shipped by anyone in a legal way under this license, even not by the original author. Let me see if i understand your logic. Tomorrow, Microsoft sue Pepino Linux because according to MS, they use software with MS patents, like Samba or any other crazy patent they have. According to you, Pepino software can't distribute GPL software any more ? If Pepino Linux decide to make an agreement with Microsoft and go to clean MS bathrooms every saturday in exchange MS agree to retired the sue, that's mean Pepino Linux can't distribute GPL software any more, because the agreement is only for Pepino Linux ? If this patent is valid, no one can (apart from some exception for educational usage). The point is that you can not drop patents of other parties by implementing their patented stuff and declare it GPL. In short, you are not allowed to use the GPL license for your software, when there are patents, which do limitate the usage. (there might be patents, but they need to be granted for usage in a way which fit to the GPL.) Even Pepino Linux would still have a problem after this agreement, because they use software with an invalid license. No matter if MS will sue them or not. Know according to you, if Pepino Linux before the sue make an agreement with Microsoft, that says they are not going to get sue it by Microsoft because patents, that's mean they can't distribute GPL software anymore ? Is this mean SUN can't distribute GPL software any more ?? we do only speak about that affected peace of software. Each other software has to be reviewed individually. The problem is not that suddenly the agreement caused something bad. The point is that this software was always in an illegal state, since the patent does hindered the usage of GPL. And if the GPL software that Pepino Linux and SUN distribute are protected _by MS patents_ and that's mean they can't distribute that's software with the GPL license, that's mean Onion Linux can do it ? again, no. All what could happen is that Onion Linux says, okay this patent is not valid from our point of view, so we can ship it. But if it is valid, no one can. bye adrian -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
Am Mittwoch, 8. November 2006 09:37 schrieb Adrian Schröter: [...] And if the GPL software that Pepino Linux and SUN distribute are protected _by MS patents_ and that's mean they can't distribute that's software with the GPL license, that's mean Onion Linux can do it ? again, no. All what could happen is that Onion Linux says, okay this patent is not valid from our point of view, so we can ship it. But if it is valid, no one can. We still do _not_ have software patents in Europe, so this is not true for Europe at the moment, right? -- Üdvözlettel -- Mit freundlichen Grüssen, Marcel Hilzinger - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
If this patent is valid, no one can (apart from some exception for educational usage). The point is that you can not drop patents of other parties by implementing their patented stuff and declare it GPL. In short, you are not allowed to use the GPL license for your software, when there are patents, which do limitate the usage. (there might be patents, but they need to be granted for usage in a way which fit to the GPL.) In short, patents cover ideas, not implementations. -`J' -- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
2006/11/7, Adrian Schröter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Two weeks of vacation and now such big inbox ;)Am Saturday 04 November 2006 14:01 schrieb Pascal Bleser:... The fact that Novell might violate the GPL if there is an IP litigation case against other Linux businesses ( e.g. Redhat) and if MS wins that litigation case in court, it would mean that e.g. Redhat would be condemned, but not Novell. This is a pretty hypothetical theory, as there hasn't been any successful IP litigation claim against the Linux kernel or other opensource projects until now (that's what SCO tried to do).Just to clarify this (as a non-lawyer without official opinion ;):1. It is right that it is not allowed to limit the rights of GPL software via patents (or in any other ways). 2. It is right that this can't get workarounded by such an agreement.But consequence is that no one (neither Novell or MS or someone else) isallowed to put software under GPL, if the software is protected by other rules (like a patent). It can not be shipped by anyone in a legal way underthis license, even not by the original author.Let me see if i understand your logic.Tomorrow, Microsoft sue Pepino Linux because according to MS, they use software with MS patents, like Samba or any other crazy patent they have. According to you, Pepino software can't distribute GPL software any more ? If Pepino Linux decide to make an agreement with Microsoft and go to clean MS bathrooms every saturday in exchange MS agree to retired the sue, that's mean Pepino Linux can't distribute GPL software any more, because the agreement is only for Pepino Linux ? Know according to you, if Pepino Linux before the sue make an agreement with Microsoft, that says they are not going to get sue it by Microsoft because patents, that's mean they can't distribute GPL software anymore ? Is this mean SUN can't distribute GPL software any more ??And if the GPL software that Pepino Linux and SUN distribute are protected _by MS patents_ and that's mean they can't distribute that's software with the GPL license, that's mean Onion Linux can do it ? Sorry for my bad english, is maybe that, but all this sound like a lot bull shit FUD-- Marcel Mourguiart
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
On Tuesday 07 November 2006 23:44, Marcel Mourguiart wrote: 2006/11/7, Adrian Schröter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Two weeks of vacation and now such big inbox ;) Am Saturday 04 November 2006 14:01 schrieb Pascal Bleser: ... The fact that Novell might violate the GPL if there is an IP litigation case against other Linux businesses (e.g. Redhat) and if MS wins that litigation case in court, it would mean that e.g. Redhat would be condemned, but not Novell. This is a pretty hypothetical theory, as there hasn't been any successful IP litigation claim against the Linux kernel or other opensource projects until now (that's what SCO tried to do). Just to clarify this (as a non-lawyer without official opinion ;): 1. It is right that it is not allowed to limit the rights of GPL software via patents (or in any other ways). 2. It is right that this can't get workarounded by such an agreement. But consequence is that no one (neither Novell or MS or someone else) is allowed to put software under GPL, if the software is protected by other rules (like a patent). It can not be shipped by anyone in a legal way under this license, even not by the original author. Let me see if i understand your logic. Tomorrow, Microsoft sue Pepino Linux because according to MS, they use software with MS patents, like Samba or any other crazy patent they have. According to you, Pepino software can't distribute GPL software any more ? If Pepino Linux decide to make an agreement with Microsoft and go to clean MS bathrooms every saturday in exchange MS agree to retired the sue, that's mean Pepino Linux can't distribute GPL software any more, because the agreement is only for Pepino Linux ? Know according to you, if Pepino Linux before the sue make an agreement with Microsoft, that says they are not going to get sue it by Microsoft because patents, that's mean they can't distribute GPL software anymore ? Is this mean SUN can't distribute GPL software any more ?? And if the GPL software that Pepino Linux and SUN distribute are protected _by MS patents_ and that's mean they can't distribute that's software with the GPL license, that's mean Onion Linux can do it ? Sorry for my bad english, is maybe that, but all this sound like a lot bull shit FUD Definitely it is because of your english. You should probably read Adrian e-mail again. Hugo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
2006/11/8, Hugo Costelha [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tuesday 07 November 2006 23:44, Marcel Mourguiart wrote: 2006/11/7, Adrian Schröter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Two weeks of vacation and now such big inbox ;) Am Saturday 04 November 2006 14:01 schrieb Pascal Bleser: ...The fact that Novell might violate the GPL if there is an IP litigation case against other Linux businesses ( e.g. Redhat) and if MS wins that litigation case in court, it would mean that e.g. Redhat would be condemned, but not Novell. This is a pretty hypothetical theory, as there hasn't been any successful IP litigation claim against the Linux kernel or other opensource projects until now (that's what SCO tried to do). Just to clarify this (as a non-lawyer without official opinion ;): 1. It is right that it is not allowed to limit the rights of GPL software via patents (or in any other ways). 2. It is right that this can't get workarounded by such an agreement. But consequence is that no one (neither Novell or MS or someone else) is allowed to put software under GPL, if the software is protected by other rules (like a patent). It can not be shipped by anyone in a legal way under this license, even not by the original author. Let me see if i understand your logic. Tomorrow, Microsoft sue Pepino Linux because according to MS, they use software with MS patents, like Samba or any other crazy patent they have. According to you, Pepino software can't distribute GPL software any more ? If Pepino Linux decide to make an agreement with Microsoft and go to clean MS bathrooms every saturday in exchange MS agree to retired the sue, that's mean Pepino Linux can't distribute GPL software any more, because the agreement is only for Pepino Linux ? Know according to you, if Pepino Linux before the sue make an agreement with Microsoft, that says they are not going to get sue it by Microsoft because patents, that's mean they can't distribute GPL software anymore ? Is this mean SUN can't distribute GPL software any more ?? And if the GPL software that Pepino Linux and SUN distribute are protected _by MS patents_ and that's mean they can't distribute that's software with the GPL license, that's mean Onion Linux can do it ? Sorry for my bad english, is maybe that, but all this sound like a lot bull shit FUDDefinitely it is because of your english. You should probably read Adriane-mail again. Your are right, is just that get tired of all that FUD about MS Linux, i will read more carefully next time.-- Marcel Mourguiart
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
By accepting 'patent coverage', Novell are giving credence to FUD that users of Linux are in danger of being sued for patent violations. I am disgusted, I am changing distros, and I am sorry for the people who work at SuSE, so that's what I wrote: who are you to tell me I shouldn't? Andreas Hanke wrote: Tony Pott schrieb: To all the people at SuSE, I know this isn't your fault, and I'm sorry I have to stop using your excellent work. I'm sad to have to change to another distro, I've been a fanboy since SuSE 8.0, but this deal is just disgusting. Ah, I see. Nobody gets what this deal is about, but you already know that it forces you to stop using the distribution. Highly interesting. Can you please read the announcement and point out which of the following prevents you from using the distribution: Patent coverage Virtualization Virtualization Management Office Open XML Collaboration Framework Mono, OpenOffice and Samba The mailinglist setup is right, this is SPAM. Use one of the existing I have been a SUSE fanboy since 231847941 years and now switching to [A-Z]Ubuntu threads. We already have enough of them. Just post me too into the other threads. ARGH! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
On Saturday 04 November 2006 11:17, Andreas Hanke wrote: By accepting 'patent coverage', Novell are giving credence to FUD that users of Linux are in danger of being sued for patent violations. No, this all happens in your fantasy. Well, they are implying that by offering patent protection exclusively to Novell customers. That's not precisely nice. But it seems that RHs marketing has just launched huge FUD campaign flaming the move, and that's not precisely nice either. -- // Janne - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Miguel Angel Alvarez wrote: El Sábado, 4 de Noviembre de 2006 09:53, Andreas Hanke escribió: Tony Pott schrieb: To all the people at SuSE, I know this isn't your fault, and I'm sorry I have to stop using your excellent work. I'm sad to have to change to another distro, I've been a fanboy since SuSE 8.0, but this deal is just disgusting. Agreed, it is very disgusting, like going home to find your wife in bed with the worst guy of the office. Maybe if you're working for Novell. As a member of the openSUSE.org community, I don't feel much affected by this (except all the FUD and crap written against SUSE Linux these days). It's a big business deal between N and MS, has pretty much nothing to do with the community effort, opensource or whatever. It's a PR and sales move by Novell. There are certainly still a lot of businesses out there that are MS shops and their suits are afraid of using Linux because they believe the FUD that they could be put into court for patent litigation. What the agreement means for Novell: they're now most probably going to sell a lot more of SLED and SLES. What it means for openSUSE.org: not much, except that if SLED/SLES sales go up, it will make the Linux products more profitable, hence more support, hence no bankruptancy, etc... Why is Redhat so pissed now (and spreading some FUD through Redhat employees that work on the Fedora project) ? Pretty simple: for those undecided suits that are afraid of patent litigation... if they use Linux, which enterprise distro will they pick ? Novell or Redhat ? Most probably Novell. Nobody gets what this deal is about, but you already know that it It is true, we haven't been in those negociations, but there is the History for all to see no need to be an expert. Do you think MS will play nice now all of a sudden? It has absolutely nothing to do with MS playing nice, nor Novell playing nice with MS. It's an agreement. It's business and big money. Sun has a similar agreement with MS since April, and Sun is definitely yet another business that has a long history of hating MS. Did it kill Sun ? Not by any means. Will it kill Novell ? IMO it will be quite the opposite (read above). Read Groklaw, it has a good coverage and analisys Groklaw and other blog posters concentrate a lot on one single point: the IP litigation protection. I just fail to see how this makes any difference to the situation before (except for SLED/SLES customers, to whom it is some sort of a benefit). Nothing has prevented MS from trying to attack Linux businesses on potential IP litigation before. The only bad thing about it is: Novell is acknowledging IP/patents. But Novell has a big patent portfolio on its own, so it doesn't really come as a surprise. I'm afraid we shouldn't expect too much patent-fighting from Novell anyway. The fact that Novell might violate the GPL if there is an IP litigation case against other Linux businesses (e.g. Redhat) and if MS wins that litigation case in court, it would mean that e.g. Redhat would be condemned, but not Novell. This is a pretty hypothetical theory, as there hasn't been any successful IP litigation claim against the Linux kernel or other opensource projects until now (that's what SCO tried to do). And without the Novell/MS agreement, the situation would have been exactly the same, except that SLED/SLES customers would have been a potential target as well. forces you to stop using the distribution. Highly interesting. It doesn't stop me now, but may be in the future Just an example, would you use and promote SCOldera OpenLinux? Geez, comparing apples and pigs here. Novell is a major contributor to opensource by having a lot of developers on a lot of OSS projects on its payroll. Novell is aggressively (maybe not enough though) pushing Linux into the enterprise and desktop space. How is that comparable to SCO, by any means ? Can you please read the announcement and point out which of the following prevents you from using the distribution: Patent coverage --MS Taxing linux (Novell to pay MS for Linux??? Thats very wrong!) Patent protection racket (Hi red head, nice linux have you got here, it would be a pity if something bad happened. see those shushi, they pay us and have no worries) Indeed. But does that make any change to the situation before the agreement ? Not really. False protection for hobbyists for their *own* use of their *own* work, absolutely unneeded Right, same as before. Weakens anti sw patents side in Europe Funny how everyone (especially outside of Europe) thinks this means Novell would suddenly turn pro-swpats in Europe. Have you seen this happen ? Where ? No you haven't, so let's wait and see how Novell will behave wrt that. Makes easier for MS to launch patent attacks on the community and protects them against antitrust issues Really. You think MS needed that agreement to do so ? It does
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
Hi! On 11/4/06, Andreas Hanke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tony Pott schrieb: I am changing distros Do so, nobody will even notice, there is no need to announce this publicly. who are you to tell me I shouldn't? A member of this list who is annoyed by the recent load of posts with basically equal content that does not help the openSUSE project any further, because nobody on this list has anything to do with this. I beg to differ. Yes, the posters do not write code or report a bug or give a workaround for some bug (or otherwise give something concrete). BUT by telling that they don't like to way things are going (to the extend that they are willing to change from familiar distro to something else - not an easy task) they are contributing to the project. At least IMHO. They are giving feedback. I know that the opensource / linux developers did not like to get any feedback previously (I'm just coding this to myself - if you don't like it or want a GUI then go ahead and write it yourself...), but I thought that had changed. Many posters are saying let's wait and see. I think this is wrong. I think that the OpenSUSE community should be in charge and not Novell. Therefore I think that the community should not wait and see, but be active in telling where they thing *their* distro should be going to. Now, it seems that it's only going where Novell wants it to go. -- HG. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
El Sábado, 4 de Noviembre de 2006 14:01, Pascal Bleser escribió:
It's a PR and sales move by Novell. There are certainly still a lot of
Unfortunately I think it's a bad PR move like EV1-SCO was. It may seems
good for your customers but ...
It has absolutely nothing to do with MS playing nice, nor Novell playing
nice with MS. It's an agreement. It's business and big money.
Will it kill Novell ? IMO it will be quite the opposite (read above).
Most often than not deals with MS have turned very wrong for the other party,
but that's Novell problem. The point is what MS will do (or already it is
doing) with such agreement to damage the whole community.
...
Nothing has prevented MS from trying to attack Linux businesses on
potential IP litigation before.
That's true but
The only bad thing about it is: Novell is acknowledging IP/patents.
which in turn may make easyer a sucessful attack
would you use and promote SCOldera OpenLinux?
Geez, comparing apples and pigs here.
Novell is a major contributor to opensource by having a lot of
developers on a lot of OSS projects on its payroll.
It's not apples and oranges, just an applicable example.
Caldera was. a major contributor to opensource by having a lot of
developers .
And look it now.
Funny how everyone (especially outside of Europe) thinks this means
Novell would suddenly turn pro-swpats in Europe.
No, I'm not saying that Novell will turn pro-swpats, only time will show. I'm
telling that it makes easyer for MS to argue that swpats don't hurt
opensource.
It does protect MS from infringement claims against Novell's patent
portfolio.
Weakens patent commons efforts
Still to prove.
Novell's patent portfolio is part of some such commons, now MS is protected
from Novell (of course, there is still IBM et al)
...
Stop believing ECMA and ISO have anything to do with ethics.
Who believes that? :-D
MS and Sun are already collaborating.
Is Sun a MS shop ? hardly so
Murky waters here sharks SCOs.
However, the agreement does mean that mono, OO.o and samba will not be
attacked by MS through IP infringement claims.
Only in Novell products, so it is not so good news
Sorry but you just wrote a lot of very hypothetical stuff that is really
far-fetched and drawn from your imagination.
Thats true, it is hypothetical, and so is the stuff written by those who
think this will be good.
Mind you, I'm not really happy about the agreement either, at least
right now.
But as said before on the list, wait and see is most probably the best
attitude atm. We just do not know yet whether it will be beneficial to
Novell SLES/SLED sales, openSUSE.org or the OSS community as a whole.
It sure looks like it can bring a benefit to all of these right now, but
we'll see.
Agreed, just looking from the other side of the river.
--
Don't see the world through a window, be open{source}minded, and be free :-)
-
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Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
*The patent protection may violate the GPL on another count.* First, as Eben Moglen argues http://news.com.com/2061-10795_3-6132156.html If you make an agreement which requires you to pay a royalty to anybody for the right to distribute GPL software, you may not distribute it under the GPL. Section 7 of the GPL requires that you have, and pass along to everybody, the right to distribute software freely and without additional permission. Oops. Guess Novell's and Microsoft's lawyers didn't catch that one. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SPAM: Re: [opensuse] Novell MS Deal
Andreas Hanke wrote: Miguel Angel Alvarez schrieb: [...] All this stuff resembles a similarly *censored* 1+1=2-style discussion we had recently, and it's similarly useful: We're just stuffing the mailing list archive with self-made junk here, that's it. If people want to go, do it: Go away, no problem ;-) Experience shows that most of the this is so disgusting, I'll go away-thinking users come back again when they realize that there was no reason to do so. And even if they don't, there are enough other users and there are new users every day. In the meantime, JBoss, acquired by Red Hat, has contracts with MS, and Zend has contracts with MS, and other OSS companies have contracts with MS and nobody cares, but this won't stop users from damaging their own community by filling the list archives with Oh my God, Novell + MS, it's so disgusting junk. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andreas, You're missing the point. Microsoft have been making war against the Linux community for years. Novell have elected to make a separate peace with Microsoft. This makes Novell no longer part of the community. It's a betrayal, and one which cannot easily be forgiven or forgotten. I appreciate you're unhappy that people are using this mailing list in a way that you regard as OT. Unfortunately, there is no better place to express our feelings, so you're going to have to live with it for a while. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
