Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Dave Howorth]

On Sat, 2007-12-15 at 01:48 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Friday 2007-12-14 at 19:42 -, Dave Howorth wrote:
> 
> >> http://localhost/cgi-bin/info2html
> >
> > Ah, thanks for that. It looks good but when I click on any link it says:
> >  File IO Error
> >  The Info file could not be opened for reading.
> 
> Me too... and it worked some time ago. I haven't investigated it yet [...]
> 
> Apache error log says:
> 
> [Sat Dec 15 01:40:47 2007] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] , referer: 
> http://localhost/cgi-bin/info2html
> [Sat Dec 15 01:40:47 2007] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] File does not exist: 
> /srv/www/htdocs/info2html.css, referer: 
> http://localhost/cgi-bin/info2html?(enscript)Top
> 
> It is "/srv/www/htdocs/info2html.css" that is missing. It has to be a bug, 
> it is not included in the whole distro. Not even webpin finds it. :-/

That's just a CSS file. It doesn't stop things working and just touching
the file makes that error go away. The real error is "" (after
subracting the timestamp and the referer information. Really helpful!

So at a minimum there's a bug in the info2html perl script's error
handling and most likely either a bug in it's file handling or some
packaging bug that means the config is inconsistent.

If I cared about info, I might investigate :)

Cheers, Dave
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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Friday 2007-12-14 at 19:42 -, Dave Howorth wrote:


http://localhost/cgi-bin/info2html


Ah, thanks for that. It looks good but when I click on any link it says:
 File IO Error
 The Info file could not be opened for reading.


Me too... and it worked some time ago. I haven't investigated it yet [...]

Apache error log says:

[Sat Dec 15 01:40:47 2007] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] , referer: 
http://localhost/cgi-bin/info2html
[Sat Dec 15 01:40:47 2007] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] File does not exist: 
/srv/www/htdocs/info2html.css, referer: 
http://localhost/cgi-bin/info2html?(enscript)Top

It is "/srv/www/htdocs/info2html.css" that is missing. It has to be a bug, 
it is not included in the whole distro. Not even webpin finds it. :-/





Want a remote site? Try "http://tldp.org/";


I use tldp quite often but don't remember seeing info pages there, and I
can't find any now. Could you give me a more specific URL?


Sorry, I prefer local pages to remote pages, so I don't have a "tested" 
link, but I though that the site would have them. My bad for not checking.





 or "http://www.gnu.org/";.


I guess you mean . I've looked at the gnu
site before and for some reason have never managed to find that page.
Thanks for making me look again.


Yes, I was thinking of the manual link: obviously, they must have the 
documentation of their own programs :-)


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   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Dave Howorth]

On Fri, 2007-12-14 at 20:00 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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> 
> 
> The Friday 2007-12-14 at 16:28 -, Dave Howorth wrote:
> 
> > It's good to know that it's theoretically possible but it doesn't answer
> > my question. "Are there any sites that have HTML-formatted info pages".
> 
> Yes, localhost. ie, your own machine. You can tell konqueror to display 
> tem for you. Or you can use apache, too:
> 
> http://localhost/cgi-bin/info2html

Ah, thanks for that. It looks good but when I click on any link it says:
  File IO Error
  The Info file could not be opened for reading.

Is that a subtle way of telling me I need to install some docs package,
or a bug? Either way, it's an incentive to use an external site:

> Want a remote site? Try "http://tldp.org/";

I use tldp quite often but don't remember seeing info pages there, and I
can't find any now. Could you give me a more specific URL?

>  or "http://www.gnu.org/";.

I guess you mean . I've looked at the gnu
site before and for some reason have never managed to find that page.
Thanks for making me look again.

Cheers, Dave


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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Friday 2007-12-14 at 16:28 -, Dave Howorth wrote:


It's good to know that it's theoretically possible but it doesn't answer
my question. "Are there any sites that have HTML-formatted info pages".


Yes, localhost. ie, your own machine. You can tell konqueror to display 
tem for you. Or you can use apache, too:


http://localhost/cgi-bin/info2html

Want a remote site? Try "http://tldp.org/"; or "http://www.gnu.org/";.

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Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Dave Howorth]

On Fri, 2007-12-14 at 10:31 -0500, François Pinard wrote:
> [Dave Howorth]
> 
> > there are lots of websites that contain HTML-formatted man pages.  Are 
> > there any sites that have HTML-formatted info pages (preferably all 
> > pages for one app on one HTML page :) ?
> 
> Yes 

It's good to know that it's theoretically possible but it doesn't answer
my question. "Are there any sites that have HTML-formatted info pages".

Actually I suppose it does answer my question. Could I extend my
question slightly and say "and what are the URLs of those sites,
please?" :)

> I see two 
> reasons for why one would want one bulky page (I'm curious to know if 
> there are other reasons): either because HTML browsers cannot 
> conveniently search at once through a bunch of related pages, or else to 
> print a manual in a single browser print request.

In my case, it's esentially the first reason. It is more convenient to
me to have all the information in one place using facilities and key
bindings that I am extremely familiar with and which provide external
indexing capabilities that I use extensively and continually. I hardly
ever use the man command and I never use *info.

Cheers, Dave

BTW, François, I don't need a second copy of your reply, thanks.
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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Friday 2007-12-14 at 10:31 -0500, François Pinard wrote:

Yes.  Info pages are one by-product of Texinfo format, which also can produce 
laser-printable manuals, and HTML pages.  At the very beginning, some people 
were writing Info pages directly, but it did not last.  The proper way is 
writing Texinfo, and deriving Info out of it.


Which is why they are mostly not translated, ie, no localization effort. 
Not even "info info" is translated!


At least, some man pages are translated.

If you look under '/usr/share/info' there is only a 'de' directory, and 
the only app translated there is 'gcal'. Only one!


If you instead look under '/usr/share/man' you see 'de,', 'es', 'fr, 'hu', 
'it', 'ja', 'pl', 'pt_BR', 'ru', 'sr', 'sv'...


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.
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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[François Pinard]

[François Pinard]

I see two reasons for why one would want one bulky [HTML] page (I'm 
curious to know if there are other reasons):


Oh, I just thought of a third: because one wants to read all 
documentation by paging through it in the browser, from beginning to 
end, while they would have to click a lot more if one page per node.


This is yet another limitation of Web browsers.  "info" knows how to do 
such paging, through bunches of nodes, quite nicely.


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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[François Pinard]

[Dave Howorth]

there are lots of websites that contain HTML-formatted man pages.  Are 
there any sites that have HTML-formatted info pages (preferably all 
pages for one app on one HTML page :) ?


Yes.  Info pages are one by-product of Texinfo format, which also can 
produce laser-printable manuals, and HTML pages.  At the very beginning, 
some people were writing Info pages directly, but it did not last.  The 
proper way is writing Texinfo, and deriving Info out of it.


In the tool generating HTML out of Texinfo, there are options for 
selecting one bulky HTML page, instead of one HTML per node.  I see two 
reasons for why one would want one bulky page (I'm curious to know if 
there are other reasons): either because HTML browsers cannot 
conveniently search at once through a bunch of related pages, or else to 
print a manual in a single browser print request.


I would think the above reasons come with HTML format.  I remember that 
"info" knows to search through all nodes (a bit like Vim knows how to 
search in all its documentation).  For printing a manual, the Texinfo to 
DVI route produces a much nicer manual than the HTML browser route.


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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Dave Howorth]

On Fri, 2007-12-14 at 14:46 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Friday 2007-12-14 at 04:27 +0100, Stephan Hegel wrote:
> > Carlos E. R. wrote:
> >> Forget 'info', use 'pinfo'. It is intuitive, uses colors, displays
> >> either man or info pages, depending on what it finds really nice.
> > I've tried it. Surely better to operate than info, especially it
> > has vi key bindings for basic operations. But how to search for
> > keywords within all pages ? E.g. for "precision" in "pinfo bc".
> > With "/" it seems it searches only in the currently displayed page.
> 
> Unfortunately, you are right.
> ...
> There is time to learn new tricks ;-)

Speaking of which ... there are lots of websites that contain
HTML-formatted man pages. Are there any sites that have HTML-formatted
info pages (preferably all pages for one app on one HTML page :) ?

Cheers, Dave
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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Friday 2007-12-14 at 04:27 +0100, Stephan Hegel wrote:


Carlos E. R. wrote:

Forget 'info', use 'pinfo'. It is intuitive, uses colors, displays
either man or info pages, depending on what it finds really nice.

I've tried it. Surely better to operate than info, especially it
has vi key bindings for basic operations. But how to search for
keywords within all pages ? E.g. for "precision" in "pinfo bc".
With "/" it seems it searches only in the currently displayed page.


Unfortunately, you are right.

There is an info page for pinfo...

It has a configuration file. Keys are configurable.

Searching for "search" in the index only finds "Node: Environment" ... 
good grief.


In "Node: Keybindings" I see:

KEY_TOTALSEARCH_1
 Key for searching through all nodes of info file.

KEY_TOTALSEARCH_2
 Alternate key for searching through all nodes of info file.


KEY_SEARCH_1
 Key for searching through current node (or manual).

KEY_SEARCH_2
 Alternate key for searching through current node (or manual).



So, we need to know which is the "KEY_TOTALSEARCH_1", but the infopage 
doesn't say.


It has no online help through "?" or "h".


Mmmm... if I type "s" or "S" for search, it does look in the whole file. I 
tried searching for "_pentium4" in "pinfo gcc", and it works. If you use 
"/" for search, then it only searchs the current node.


That's it, then :-)



Ah! There is an "/etc/pinforc" file. Sure enough, it has:

KEY_TOTALSEARCH_1 = 's'
KEY_TOTALSEARCH_2 = 'S'
KEY_SEARCH_1 = '/'
KEY_SEARCH_2 = '.'


But I don't see how to search backwards. Ah, the cursor left key does it, 
goes to the previously found item.


There is time to learn new tricks ;-)

- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Stephan Hegel]

Hi,

Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Forget 'info', use 'pinfo'. It is intuitive, uses colors, displays
> either man or info pages, depending on what it finds really nice.
I've tried it. Surely better to operate than info, especially it
has vi key bindings for basic operations. But how to search for
keywords within all pages ? E.g. for "precision" in "pinfo bc".
With "/" it seems it searches only in the currently displayed page.

Regards,
   Stephan.
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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Friday 2007-12-14 at 01:01 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:


I work primarily with the keyboard, that's not what it's about

info, for whatever reason, chose to have a completely different set of key
bindings from any other application known to man. This is just stupidity, and
I refuse to spend the brain power memorising them


Forget 'info', use 'pinfo'. It is intuitive, uses colors, displays either 
man or info pages, depending on what it finds really nice.


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Anders Johansson]

On Thursday 13 December 2007 04:59:19 François Pinard wrote:
> But I'm kidding a bit, and know that some people who cannot stand Info
> are mouse addicts, while "info" requires the keyboard.  For those who do
> not know, the keyboard is that big huge mouse next to the usual one,
> absolutely full of buttons, and which does not slide very well! :-)

I work primarily with the keyboard, that's not what it's about

info, for whatever reason, chose to have a completely different set of key 
bindings from any other application known to man. This is just stupidity, and 
I refuse to spend the brain power memorising them

Anders

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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Wednesday 2007-12-12 at 22:59 -0500, François Pinard wrote:

I'm surprised when people say that it is a nightmare to read Info format 
documentation, as it is really a very simple thing to do, for anyone with any 
small drop of good will.  Nightmares, I would better understand for those 
having had a bad life and consequently, agitated sleep :-).


But I'm kidding a bit, and know that some people who cannot stand Info are 
mouse addicts, while "info" requires the keyboard.  For those who do not 
know, the keyboard is that big huge mouse next to the usual one, absolutely 
full of buttons, and which does not slide very well! :-)


I don't think it is a nightmare, but I do find its keyboard interface 
awkward. I came to expect programs using the cursor to navigate, enter to 
select... etc. Ie, I expect it to behave like "pinfo".


Sometimes info, or rather, pinfo, doesn't select the page I expect, but 
another; and I simply do not know how to tell it to search again. I'm 
trying to remember an example, but can't find it... but there is one that 
when I want, I get instead a "yes no something" page instead.



The simple truth is that Info never succeeded at taking over man pages in 
Linux.  It would have been a good thing: Info is a superior documentation 
format in many ways.  But life is that the amount of existing man pages is 
overwhelming, so all in all, and as sad as it is,

Info is not practical, even if it would have been better.


Sometimes I do not like to browse: I prefer an expanded view with all in a 
single page, to read it from start to end. That is not selectable. Browse 
mode is better when you already know something and want to view a small 
part. But I hate when I have to navigate several subnodes to find the 
exact part I'm looking for, in trial and error browse mode. I then prefer 
the man page, if it exists, because a simple search finds it - if I 
remember an string, of course.


I think that info pages are not bad, it's a good idea, that could benefit 
from a reviewed interface.



And, as a translator, I simply have no idea how to translate info pages. I 
do not have to understand tags and things. I translate text. The fact is 
that not even "info info" is translated! (to Spanish). That is 
significative of the difficulty. There is no GUI program to easily 
edit/translate info pages. Something like LyX, for instance.


For instance, "man man" is translated to Spanish... not that many pages 
are translated, only a few, and many are obsolete. But info pages? I don't 
know of any.


Even man pages are difficult to translate... do you know what I do? I edit 
them directly with mcedit, which has syntax coloring.


Program translation have the gettext utilities, and programs like poedit 
or kbabel to facilitate things. Info? Man? None.



That's a complete failure, IMO.

- -- 
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   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[François Pinard]

[Randall R Schulz]

On Wednesday 12 December 2007 15:14, Anders Johansson wrote:

...



using the info:/ url in konqueror makes reading info pages less like
a nightmare



To read the info page for bc in a format that won't make you cry,
just go to info:/bc in konqueror


That is what I do when I must read info pages. Unfortunately, it has 
become broken on my 10.0 system and I haven't taken the time to track 
down the problem.


Hi, people.  I did not follow this thread, so maybe that I repeat things 
that were already said -- sorry then.  Please read me correctly: I'm 
only sharing opinions here on a friendly tone, not at all trying to 
aliment any kind of flame.  Keep a smiley in your hearth!


Merely call "info info" to know how to use the standard GNU "info" 
reader (within a terminal -- that's a curses application).  Type "h" 
early on this page to get a small and child-easy tutorial.


I'm surprised when people say that it is a nightmare to read Info format 
documentation, as it is really a very simple thing to do, for anyone 
with any small drop of good will.  Nightmares, I would better understand 
for those having had a bad life and consequently, agitated sleep :-).


But I'm kidding a bit, and know that some people who cannot stand Info 
are mouse addicts, while "info" requires the keyboard.  For those who do 
not know, the keyboard is that big huge mouse next to the usual one, 
absolutely full of buttons, and which does not slide very well! :-)


The simple truth is that Info never succeeded at taking over man pages 
in Linux.  It would have been a good thing: Info is a superior 
documentation format in many ways.  But life is that the amount of 
existing man pages is overwhelming, so all in all, and as sad as it is,

Info is not practical, even if it would have been better.

I'm not fully sure, but I think Info format even predates HTML.
There was influences, and observable similarities for a few tag names.  
Some people, not liking Info, very well accept HTML, even if still not 
man pages.  Yet, most HTML browsers are less capable than an average 
Info reader, when it comes to indices, wide searches, and a few other 
useful things.  And printed Info (more precisely, Texinfo) is of superb 
typographical quality, compared to almost any HTML, which is fairly 
crude by comparison.  On the man pages side, I quite agree that the 
typographical quality is very acceptable, much better than HTML!  :-)


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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Randall R Schulz]

On Wednesday 12 December 2007 15:14, Anders Johansson wrote:
> ...
>
> using the info:/ url in konqueror makes reading info pages less like
> a nightmare
>
> To read the info page for bc in a format that won't make you cry,
> just go to info:/bc in konqueror

That is what I do when I must read info pages. Unfortunately, it has 
become broken on my 10.0 system and I haven't taken the time to track 
down the problem.


> Anders


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Anders Johansson]

On Wednesday 12 December 2007 23:07:01 Linda Walsh wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> > Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >> On Tuesday 11 December 2007 02:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>  Both have good man pages.
> >>>
> >>> And "info" pages.
> >>
> >> Gack!
> >
> > WTF is with the FSF and their insistance on scrimping
> > on the man pages, and only putting the detailed documentation
> > in the info pages.
> >
> > And worse, they're quite snide about it.
>
> ---
>   *snicker*... but but but...isn't it derived from
> the interface god dictated to Stallman for Emacs?  Your
> words border on heresy!
>
>   As someone else mentioned, "pinfo", at least, has
> a bearable interface.  Of course if you have a problem with
> the 'info' tool, you can always consult the 'info' page
> for info :-) (*sigh*)
> (not that I would agree with your sentiment or anything..:-))

using the info:/ url in konqueror makes reading info pages less like a 
nightmare

To read the info page for bc in a format that won't make you cry, just go to 
info:/bc in konqueror

Anders

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Re: [opensuse] religion of info (was: Bash script problem regarding with some math)

[Linda Walsh]

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Tuesday 11 December 2007 02:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Both have good man pages.

And "info" pages.

Gack!

WTF is with the FSF and their insistance on scrimping
on the man pages, and only putting the detailed documentation
in the info pages.

And worse, they're quite snide about it.

---
*snicker*... but but but...isn't it derived from
the interface god dictated to Stallman for Emacs?  Your
words border on heresy!

As someone else mentioned, "pinfo", at least, has
a bearable interface.  Of course if you have a problem with
the 'info' tool, you can always consult the 'info' page
for info :-) (*sigh*)
(not that I would agree with your sentiment or anything..:-))







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