Re:RE: RE: (Fwd/2)
Well, Let's see. It looked like Win2000 for the most part, acted like Win2000 only better & faster. Their Office look alike package (little different in feel but not functionality) worked like Office2000 just a little faster. And to boot they had a copy of Doom running right off of the Windows CD?!?!?! This stuff is as advertised, Linux for the masses. I was more than impressed by their software distribution model. You pay a single fee for access to the digital warehouse. There's an icon on the desktop access the warehouse, click on a product & it downloads & installs itself by itself unless you want to customize it in some way (like a custom location or you don't want a specific driver). The hardware requirements are lower than Win2K as well. Seriously, although Linux did provide M$ with some competition these guys have REALLY thrown down the gauntlet. I get the $99 to upgrade to Lindows and at least at home Windows is history. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Jesse; Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 7/18/2002 9:46 AM OK, Dick, you can't leave it at that! What "SERIOUSLY impressed" you, aside from the dirt cheap price? Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 2:36 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: Re:RE: (Fwd/2) > > > Mike, > > Apple is still trying to compete with MicroSlop & having > a hard time of it > as well. I believe Apple's major problem competing is that > Magnavox chip they > remain stuck to. MicroSoft went and let someone else build > the machines instead > of doing it all themselves. Therefore you end up with a > monopoly in software in > a sea of competing hardware vendors. Panacea at it's best. > > OH DARN, here comes those Lindows folks with their Linux > based windows > environment. Darn, someone had to upset the boat sooner or > later. (Got to play > with one of those WalMart specials with Lindows on it. I'm SERIOUSLY > impressed.) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re[2]:RE: (Fwd/2)
AW &^%$, Pardon me! It's Motorola not Magnavox. Damned old age showing itself, again!! Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 7/17/2002 2:33 PM Magnavox? As in the TV? ;) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/17/2002 12:35 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:Re:RE: (Fwd/2) Mike, Apple is still trying to compete with MicroSlop & having a hard time of it as well. I believe Apple's major problem competing is that Magnavox chip they remain stuck to. MicroSoft went and let someone else build the machines instead of doing it all themselves. Therefore you end up with a monopoly in software in a sea of competing hardware vendors. Panacea at it's best. OH DARN, here comes those Lindows folks with their Linux based windows environment. Darn, someone had to upset the boat sooner or later. (Got to play with one of those WalMart specials with Lindows on it. I'm SERIOUSLY impressed.) Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Johnson; Michael " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 7/17/2002 11:05 AM There are those that argue Apple provided competition to Microsoft. Not very good competition, but competition nonetheless and so the monopoly argument goes out the window.I agree Microsoft is substandard product, especially with regard to the server based class. However, the market place has spoken very clearly and it is up to someone else to come and take away some of Microsofts Pie ! In 1998, at Oracle OpenWorld, McNally and Ellision completely trashed Microsoft and Bill Gates in one of those open morning sessions.My thought at the time was , instead of bitchin about them , why dont you just go compete against them and put them out of business. Well, its 2002 and Sun / Oracle now have major business problems and Microsoft just seems to keep on truckin. I havent heard much lately from Scott and Larry regarding this issue. Perhaps they are putting together a good technical presentation for Openworld this year and that will give me a good reason to go. maybe I will hear good technical presentations instead of thoughtless meanderings and tirades about folks they are obviously jeoulous of. FWIW. Mike -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:19 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Hi Mike, I just got a bit of a chuckle when you mentioned "free market system" and "Microsoft" in the same breath. Microsoft didn't get to be the biggest by having the best product. They got it from the best marketing and unscrupulous and illegal business practices (tried to say that without using the over-used "Monopoly"!). Oracle can make claims that they are the best because they can actually prove some or most those claims. MS can't. Sorry for sounding like a whiner, but it's been a Microsoft day at it's best. Multiple reboots for everyone! Yay! OK, enough whining. It's no fun when you can't whine/complain to someone without having some brewskis! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA > -Original Message- > From: Johnson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 6:03 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: RE: (Fwd/2) > > > I would add to this .. > > In a free market system nobody should > look at the negative side when people make > money off of their hard work or investments. > This is the way it is set up. > > Why not say "damn, how did he do > it and where do I get in line to get > some of that action ?" > > I always find it interesting the envy and/or > disgust that some folks have toward people > who make alot of money. > > Think of all the middle class people > Larry Ellison and crew put to work who > bought homes and cars to drive our economy. > > I didnt care for any of Larry and Scotts > bitchin and moanin about Microsoft and > Bill Gates, but I say to Larry .. "More power > to you to make more money, keep gettin richer > and help build our economy. Keep on truckin !" > > FWIW. > > Mike -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Johnson, Michael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of '
RE: (Fwd/2)
Mike - I think you are right. In fact, an author named Gary Rivlin wrote a book named "The Plot to Get Bill Gates: An Irreverent Investigation of the World's Richest Man . . . and the People Who Hate Him". This thesis was just what you describe, that many of Bill Gates competitors get themselves so angry over Bill Gates that their actions aren't even in their own best interests. Larry Ellison is a pretty suave, sophisticated person of no small ego, and I've often thought he probably feels it unfair that Bill Gates who is often characterized in the media as presenting a pretty nerdy image is the computer industry's wealthiest figure. Naturally, when the media needs a sound bite they only go to the top individual, which is Bill, rarely others like Larry. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 2:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L There are those that argue Apple provided competition to Microsoft. Not very good competition, but competition nonetheless and so the monopoly argument goes out the window.I agree Microsoft is substandard product, especially with regard to the server based class. However, the market place has spoken very clearly and it is up to someone else to come and take away some of Microsofts Pie ! In 1998, at Oracle OpenWorld, McNally and Ellision completely trashed Microsoft and Bill Gates in one of those open morning sessions.My thought at the time was , instead of bitchin about them , why dont you just go compete against them and put them out of business. Well, its 2002 and Sun / Oracle now have major business problems and Microsoft just seems to keep on truckin. I havent heard much lately from Scott and Larry regarding this issue. Perhaps they are putting together a good technical presentation for Openworld this year and that will give me a good reason to go. maybe I will hear good technical presentations instead of thoughtless meanderings and tirades about folks they are obviously jeoulous of. FWIW. Mike -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:19 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Hi Mike, I just got a bit of a chuckle when you mentioned "free market system" and "Microsoft" in the same breath. Microsoft didn't get to be the biggest by having the best product. They got it from the best marketing and unscrupulous and illegal business practices (tried to say that without using the over-used "Monopoly"!). Oracle can make claims that they are the best because they can actually prove some or most those claims. MS can't. Sorry for sounding like a whiner, but it's been a Microsoft day at it's best. Multiple reboots for everyone! Yay! OK, enough whining. It's no fun when you can't whine/complain to someone without having some brewskis! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA > -Original Message- > From: Johnson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 6:03 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: RE: (Fwd/2) > > > I would add to this .. > > In a free market system nobody should > look at the negative side when people make > money off of their hard work or investments. > This is the way it is set up. > > Why not say "damn, how did he do > it and where do I get in line to get > some of that action ?" > > I always find it interesting the envy and/or > disgust that some folks have toward people > who make alot of money. > > Think of all the middle class people > Larry Ellison and crew put to work who > bought homes and cars to drive our economy. > > I didnt care for any of Larry and Scotts > bitchin and moanin about Microsoft and > Bill Gates, but I say to Larry .. "More power > to you to make more money, keep gettin richer > and help build our economy. Keep on truckin !" > > FWIW. > > Mike -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Johnson, Michael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTE
RE: (Fwd/2)
>There are those that argue Apple provided competition >to Microsoft. Not very good competition, but competition >nonetheless and so the monopoly argument goes out >the window. Only because years ago, MS put money in it (100 mill?) and promised to port MS Office and IE to Mac to keep it alive, so there appears to be competition. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ji, Richard INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: (Fwd/2)
There are those that argue Apple provided competition to Microsoft. Not very good competition, but competition nonetheless and so the monopoly argument goes out the window.I agree Microsoft is substandard product, especially with regard to the server based class. However, the market place has spoken very clearly and it is up to someone else to come and take away some of Microsofts Pie ! In 1998, at Oracle OpenWorld, McNally and Ellision completely trashed Microsoft and Bill Gates in one of those open morning sessions.My thought at the time was , instead of bitchin about them , why dont you just go compete against them and put them out of business. Well, its 2002 and Sun / Oracle now have major business problems and Microsoft just seems to keep on truckin. I havent heard much lately from Scott and Larry regarding this issue. Perhaps they are putting together a good technical presentation for Openworld this year and that will give me a good reason to go. maybe I will hear good technical presentations instead of thoughtless meanderings and tirades about folks they are obviously jeoulous of. FWIW. Mike -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:19 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Hi Mike, I just got a bit of a chuckle when you mentioned "free market system" and "Microsoft" in the same breath. Microsoft didn't get to be the biggest by having the best product. They got it from the best marketing and unscrupulous and illegal business practices (tried to say that without using the over-used "Monopoly"!). Oracle can make claims that they are the best because they can actually prove some or most those claims. MS can't. Sorry for sounding like a whiner, but it's been a Microsoft day at it's best. Multiple reboots for everyone! Yay! OK, enough whining. It's no fun when you can't whine/complain to someone without having some brewskis! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA > -Original Message- > From: Johnson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 6:03 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: RE: (Fwd/2) > > > I would add to this .. > > In a free market system nobody should > look at the negative side when people make > money off of their hard work or investments. > This is the way it is set up. > > Why not say "damn, how did he do > it and where do I get in line to get > some of that action ?" > > I always find it interesting the envy and/or > disgust that some folks have toward people > who make alot of money. > > Think of all the middle class people > Larry Ellison and crew put to work who > bought homes and cars to drive our economy. > > I didnt care for any of Larry and Scotts > bitchin and moanin about Microsoft and > Bill Gates, but I say to Larry .. "More power > to you to make more money, keep gettin richer > and help build our economy. Keep on truckin !" > > FWIW. > > Mike -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Johnson, Michael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: (Fwd/2)
I would add to this .. In a free market system nobody should look at the negative side when people make money off of their hard work or investments. This is the way it is set up. Why not say "damn, how did he do it and where do I get in line to get some of that action ?" I always find it interesting the envy and/or disgust that some folks have toward people who make alot of money. Think of all the middle class people Larry Ellison and crew put to work who bought homes and cars to drive our economy. I didnt care for any of Larry and Scotts bitchin and moanin about Microsoft and Bill Gates, but I say to Larry .. "More power to you to make more money, keep gettin richer and help build our economy. Keep on truckin !" FWIW. Mike -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:33 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L >> Certainly. I'm waiting for people to present more factual information. >> (Maybe Larry needed some petty cash for a new boat or something?) As the story was related to me, Ellison has been living off of loans (from banks, not Oracle) for the past couple decades. His alleged reasoning was that his stocks would appreciate far faster than the interest of the loans, thus making it more economical to borrow than to sell. Obviously, with such a plan, you have to pay off sometime, and in 2000 one (or more) of his lenders called in his loans for payment. Again, this is just hearsay, but that's what I've heard... ...so, in essence, he sold stock because he had (large unexpected) debts to pay. The timing of the stock sale wasn't his, it was some banker's... >> Instead, what you see is people defending the social privileges of the >> wealthy technocorporate elites, and the ethos of sleaze, extreme greed and >> selfishness that they are mired in. Oh, you do yourself far too much justice! My own objection was your prolonged and uninformed vitriol lacking anything more than a politician's media release for substantiation. Go measure some cache-hit ratios, please... >> Do you know if Oracle's accounting practices are currently documented in a >> way that is transparent to investors? No idea. Not of interest... >> I guess a lot of alleged "facts" will come out after the august deadline >> that the SEC has imposed for corporate executives to sign off on the >> validity of their accounting. Sure. Whatever. Whaddya say we get back to work and talk techie stuff and quit wasting time on this fluff? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tim Gorman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Johnson, Michael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: (Fwd/2)
>> Certainly. I'm waiting for people to present more factual information. >> (Maybe Larry needed some petty cash for a new boat or something?) As the story was related to me, Ellison has been living off of loans (from banks, not Oracle) for the past couple decades. His alleged reasoning was that his stocks would appreciate far faster than the interest of the loans, thus making it more economical to borrow than to sell. Obviously, with such a plan, you have to pay off sometime, and in 2000 one (or more) of his lenders called in his loans for payment. Again, this is just hearsay, but that's what I've heard... ...so, in essence, he sold stock because he had (large unexpected) debts to pay. The timing of the stock sale wasn't his, it was some banker's... >> Instead, what you see is people defending the social privileges of the >> wealthy technocorporate elites, and the ethos of sleaze, extreme greed and >> selfishness that they are mired in. Oh, you do yourself far too much justice! My own objection was your prolonged and uninformed vitriol lacking anything more than a politician's media release for substantiation. Go measure some cache-hit ratios, please... >> Do you know if Oracle's accounting practices are currently documented in a >> way that is transparent to investors? No idea. Not of interest... >> I guess a lot of alleged "facts" will come out after the august deadline >> that the SEC has imposed for corporate executives to sign off on the >> validity of their accounting. Sure. Whatever. Whaddya say we get back to work and talk techie stuff and quit wasting time on this fluff? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tim Gorman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: (Fwd/2)
A lot of the current problem goes back to government intervention. Some politicians/bureaucrats complained that CEO salaries were too high or unfair and (as if they were fit to judge) they decided to "control" the high CEO salary "problem" via taxation. So guess what happened? Corporate boards felt they needed to better compensate their CEO's and compensation changed to be more oriented to stocks and options. Suddenly CEO became intensely interested in Wall Street perception and stock values, much of which is driven by accounting reports. Business practices changed because of government intervention to solve a "problem" and the result was an even worse problem. The original government intervention was justified as an attempt to make things more fair for the "little people" but the result hurt everyone, especially little people like the small investor. LAISSEZ FAIRE!! Less government = increased prosperity. Adam Smith rules. The above explanation is a bit simplistic and doesn't explain everything but the essence has merit. The market may have periods of irrational exuberance but eventually it self corrects. The founding fathers' focus was to have the government be accountable to the public but now the fixation is with having publicly owned organizations be accountable to the government. In reality public companies are accountable to the public and the correction has already taken place in the stock market. The mindset of America has been turned up-side-down and many of its values no longer reflect the values of the founding fathers or its heritage in the constitution. The founding fathers were considered "liberals" in their day. "Liberally" and rhetorically yours, :-) Steve Orr P.S. What does this have to do with Oracle? Well it's kind of like tuning with ratios... Making tuning changes with incomplete understanding may have the opposite effect of what was intended. :-) -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L A new boat, Ferrari, Mig fighter jet, mansion, maybe some Japanese art... the man has some serious expenses. Seriously, I know that Oracle had a problem with shady accounting practices many years ago (late 80's, if I recall correctly). Their stock took a huge hit, and they cleaned up their act. As a result, I think that they have been very conservative in there accounting practices ever since, and have not heard any accusations of untoward accounting practices since them. I admit that I know almost nothing about accounting. Still, I think it the height of hypocrisy for politicians to accuse anyone of shady accounting practices, when, as I understand, the federal govt itself doesn't abide by the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles to which corporations are expected to adhere. All the Worldcoms and Enrons added together don't equal the tax dollars flushed down the toilet due to govt waste, corruption, fraud and incompetence. As an example: http://freedom.house.gov/wastewatch/education.asp Having ceo's sign off on their company's books seems sensible enough. I suspect that when the hot air coming from DC blows over, the investigations will prove that existing laws have been broken, and there will be criminal convictions. Most people don't want to wait for investigations to run their course, and politicians pander to this lack of attention span with by pontificating on TV, then passing more laws, which at best are probably redundant, and at worst have unintended side-effects. The politicians, especially Democrats, have also successfully exploited class-envy with their screw-the-rich-we'll protect-the-little-guy act. It usually works well for them, so they take advantage of it at every opportunity. Gary -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Kirsh, Gary (test, posting from www.mail2web.com) Gary, Certainly. I'm waiting for people to present more factual information. (Maybe Larry needed some petty cash for a new boat or something?) Instead, what you see is people defending the social privileges of the wealthy technocorporate elites, and the ethos of sleaze, extreme greed and selfishness that they are mired in. Do you know if Oracle's accounting practices are currently documented in a way that is transparent to investors? I guess a lot of alleged "facts" will come out after the august deadline that the SEC has imposed for corporate executives to sign off on the validity of their accounting. regards, ep Original Message: - Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:53:34 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eric, Have you considered the POSSIBILITY that Larry sold the stock without the benefit of insider trading, and simply got lucky with his timing? After all, the main reason Oracle stock has lost so much value is not due to problems specific to the company, but due to problems in the market and economy as a whole. So where would the insider info co
RE: RE: (Fwd/2)
With any luck, they'll all have the privilege of meeting "Ray-Ray" on Cell Block D. Maybe we should move this to OT, eh? Scott Shafer San Antonio, TX 210-581-6217 > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:59 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: Re:RE: (Fwd/2) > > Gary, > > Well if you "know almost nothing about accounting", I'm about 200 ft > deeper > into the waters than you and still "know almost nothing about accounting" > as it > turns out. What is more, I don't even want to get acquainted with the > bottom > feeders in this here ocean! We've always had the saying about "Lier's, > damned > lier's , and statistics" well you had better add accountants to the end > cause it > sure is one heck of a mess. As for politicains, honest politician I > believe is > still an oxymoron. SO the politicians and crooked CEO's and accountants > should > be in good company. > > Dick Goulet > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: (Fwd/2)
Not sure about "cash for a new boat ",
but I'm sure read, that Ellison is getting his CEO salary in company stocks
(not in cash).
This could explain, him selling stocks, though 700,000,000 seems little
high.
The other point is, that Oracle stock didn't drop overnight - it was going
down gradually (along with the rest of the market) for last two years.
And, no I'm not Larry's defender, just don't like politicians even more.
Igor Neyman, OCP DBA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:33 PM
(test, posting from www.mail2web.com)
Gary,
Certainly. I'm waiting for people to present more factual information.
(Maybe Larry needed some petty cash for a new boat or something?)
Instead, what you see is people defending the social privileges of the
wealthy technocorporate elites, and the ethos of sleaze, extreme greed and
selfishness that they are mired in.
Do you know if Oracle's accounting practices are currently documented in a
way that is transparent to investors?
I guess a lot of alleged "facts" will come out after the august deadline
that the SEC has imposed for corporate executives to sign off on the
validity of their accounting.
regards,
ep
Original Message:
-
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:53:34 -0800
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Eric,
Have you considered the POSSIBILITY that Larry sold the stock without the
benefit of insider trading, and simply got lucky with his timing? After
all, the main reason Oracle stock has lost so much value is not due to
problems specific to the company, but due to problems in the market and
economy as a whole. So where would the insider info come into play? And if
he really did have insider info, and was acting unethically, why not sell
more shares? The amount he sold was probably less than 5% of his holdings.
I don't mean to defend ceo misconduct, corporate fraud, etc, I just think
you need look this particular accusation a little more objectively,
especially when you consider its source. I have great respect for McCain's
war record and heroism, but now he is a politician, a Senator no less.
IMHO, one can't take anything any politician says at face value. Given a
choice between honesty and self-promotion, I'm afraid politicians too often
choose the latter. And without getting into specifics about McCain, he
seems to be second in the Senate only to my own Sen. Schumer in his love of
getting on TV (Q: What's the most dangerous place in NY? A: Between Chuck
Schumer and a TV camera). Larry makes a convenient and easy target, someone
a politician knows he can attack, get a good soundbite, and have very little
chance of being challenged.
Gary
-Original Message-
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:13 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
trying again...
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Responsibility / Re: OT
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:14:39 -0400
| Original Message:
| -
| From: Johnson, M=2E
| Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:23:21 -0800
| To: ORACLE-L@fatcity=2Ecom
| Subject: RE: McCain on Larry Ellison and Corporate
Responsibility / Re: =
OT
| Not defending Ellison for anything,=20
Understood
| but it appears
| McCain is just another politician who is only interested
| in his future and he constantly takes on these "reform
| ideas" and just makes the matter worse
That sounds really cynical to me. Are you just speculating, or
do you have
any info to back that up?
Note that Oracle/Ellison attempted to buy off politicians here
in
Sacramento in order to stop the JLAC (legislative) audit of
Oracle's ELA
with the State of California
Note that Senator Sarbanes was on the same TV program ("Meet
the Press") as
McCain, and generally agreed with McCain that there is a
horrible lack of
corporate responsibility, and that reforming the institutions
designed to
protect the public's interests has been made extremely
difficult by the
influence of corrupt lobbyists and lack of effective campaign
reform
Tim Russert (a rare TV journalist with some integrity) and the
Senators
spent most of their time discussing the issue of putting
executive stock
options on the "expense" sheets so as to more correctly
reflect
profitability (or lack thereof)
Do you think it better serves the investment community for
sleazy corrupt
executives to be able to hide their shenanighans from analysts
and
investors?
| Everyone should accept the fact that we are in a bear
| market and as such all the boats go down
Argh, that is the problem, when you have these outrageous
examples of
greedy, corrupt corporate executives cashing out (***AFTER
COOKING THE
BOOKS***), leaving others to sink
| Everyone should have been smart enough to sell stocks and
| put their money into cash or better yet short stocks
| when it was very clear that in the Fall of 2000 after the
| initial March 2000 sell off that we were going into
| a prolonged Bear market
"Should
RE: (Fwd/2)
A new boat, Ferrari, Mig fighter jet, mansion, maybe some Japanese art... the man has some serious expenses. Seriously, I know that Oracle had a problem with shady accounting practices many years ago (late 80's, if I recall correctly). Their stock took a huge hit, and they cleaned up their act. As a result, I think that they have been very conservative in there accounting practices ever since, and have not heard any accusations of untoward accounting practices since them. I admit that I know almost nothing about accounting. Still, I think it the height of hypocrisy for politicians to accuse anyone of shady accounting practices, when, as I understand, the federal govt itself doesn't abide by the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles to which corporations are expected to adhere. All the Worldcoms and Enrons added together don't equal the tax dollars flushed down the toilet due to govt waste, corruption, fraud and incompetence. As an example: http://freedom.house.gov/wastewatch/education.asp Having ceo's sign off on their company's books seems sensible enough. I suspect that when the hot air coming from DC blows over, the investigations will prove that existing laws have been broken, and there will be criminal convictions. Most people don't want to wait for investigations to run their course, and politicians pander to this lack of attention span with by pontificating on TV, then passing more laws, which at best are probably redundant, and at worst have unintended side-effects. The politicians, especially Democrats, have also successfully exploited class-envy with their screw-the-rich-we'll protect-the-little-guy act. It usually works well for them, so they take advantage of it at every opportunity. Gary -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Kirsh, Gary (test, posting from www.mail2web.com) Gary, Certainly. I'm waiting for people to present more factual information. (Maybe Larry needed some petty cash for a new boat or something?) Instead, what you see is people defending the social privileges of the wealthy technocorporate elites, and the ethos of sleaze, extreme greed and selfishness that they are mired in. Do you know if Oracle's accounting practices are currently documented in a way that is transparent to investors? I guess a lot of alleged "facts" will come out after the august deadline that the SEC has imposed for corporate executives to sign off on the validity of their accounting. regards, ep Original Message: - Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:53:34 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eric, Have you considered the POSSIBILITY that Larry sold the stock without the benefit of insider trading, and simply got lucky with his timing? After all, the main reason Oracle stock has lost so much value is not due to problems specific to the company, but due to problems in the market and economy as a whole. So where would the insider info come into play? And if he really did have insider info, and was acting unethically, why not sell more shares? The amount he sold was probably less than 5% of his holdings. I don't mean to defend ceo misconduct, corporate fraud, etc, I just think you need look this particular accusation a little more objectively, especially when you consider its source. I have great respect for McCain's war record and heroism, but now he is a politician, a Senator no less. IMHO, one can't take anything any politician says at face value. Given a choice between honesty and self-promotion, I'm afraid politicians too often choose the latter. And without getting into specifics about McCain, he seems to be second in the Senate only to my own Sen. Schumer in his love of getting on TV (Q: What's the most dangerous place in NY? A: Between Chuck Schumer and a TV camera). Larry makes a convenient and easy target, someone a politician knows he can attack, get a good soundbite, and have very little chance of being challenged. Gary -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:13 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L trying again... --- Forwarded message follows --- Responsibility / Re: OT Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:14:39 -0400 | Original Message: | - | From: Johnson, M=2E | Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:23:21 -0800 | To: ORACLE-L@fatcity=2Ecom | Subject: RE: McCain on Larry Ellison and Corporate Responsibility / Re: = OT | Not defending Ellison for anything,=20 Understood | but it appears | McCain is just another politician who is only interested | in his future and he constantly takes on these "reform | ideas" and just makes the matter worse That sounds really cynical to me. Are you just speculating, or do you have any info to back that up? Note that Oracle/Ellison attempted to buy off politicians here in Sacramento in order to stop the JLAC (legislative) audit of Oracle's ELA with the State of California Note that Senator Sarbanes was on the same TV progr
RE: (Fwd/2)
(test, posting from www.mail2web.com)
Gary,
Certainly. I'm waiting for people to present more factual information.
(Maybe Larry needed some petty cash for a new boat or something?)
Instead, what you see is people defending the social privileges of the
wealthy technocorporate elites, and the ethos of sleaze, extreme greed and
selfishness that they are mired in.
Do you know if Oracle's accounting practices are currently documented in a
way that is transparent to investors?
I guess a lot of alleged "facts" will come out after the august deadline
that the SEC has imposed for corporate executives to sign off on the
validity of their accounting.
regards,
ep
Original Message:
-
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:53:34 -0800
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Eric,
Have you considered the POSSIBILITY that Larry sold the stock without the
benefit of insider trading, and simply got lucky with his timing? After
all, the main reason Oracle stock has lost so much value is not due to
problems specific to the company, but due to problems in the market and
economy as a whole. So where would the insider info come into play? And if
he really did have insider info, and was acting unethically, why not sell
more shares? The amount he sold was probably less than 5% of his holdings.
I don't mean to defend ceo misconduct, corporate fraud, etc, I just think
you need look this particular accusation a little more objectively,
especially when you consider its source. I have great respect for McCain's
war record and heroism, but now he is a politician, a Senator no less.
IMHO, one can't take anything any politician says at face value. Given a
choice between honesty and self-promotion, I'm afraid politicians too often
choose the latter. And without getting into specifics about McCain, he
seems to be second in the Senate only to my own Sen. Schumer in his love of
getting on TV (Q: What's the most dangerous place in NY? A: Between Chuck
Schumer and a TV camera). Larry makes a convenient and easy target, someone
a politician knows he can attack, get a good soundbite, and have very little
chance of being challenged.
Gary
-Original Message-
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:13 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
trying again...
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Responsibility / Re: OT
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:14:39 -0400
| Original Message:
| -
| From: Johnson, M=2E
| Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:23:21 -0800
| To: ORACLE-L@fatcity=2Ecom
| Subject: RE: McCain on Larry Ellison and Corporate
Responsibility / Re: =
OT
| Not defending Ellison for anything,=20
Understood
| but it appears
| McCain is just another politician who is only interested
| in his future and he constantly takes on these "reform
| ideas" and just makes the matter worse
That sounds really cynical to me. Are you just speculating, or
do you have
any info to back that up?
Note that Oracle/Ellison attempted to buy off politicians here
in
Sacramento in order to stop the JLAC (legislative) audit of
Oracle's ELA
with the State of California
Note that Senator Sarbanes was on the same TV program ("Meet
the Press") as
McCain, and generally agreed with McCain that there is a
horrible lack of
corporate responsibility, and that reforming the institutions
designed to
protect the public's interests has been made extremely
difficult by the
influence of corrupt lobbyists and lack of effective campaign
reform
Tim Russert (a rare TV journalist with some integrity) and the
Senators
spent most of their time discussing the issue of putting
executive stock
options on the "expense" sheets so as to more correctly
reflect
profitability (or lack thereof)
Do you think it better serves the investment community for
sleazy corrupt
executives to be able to hide their shenanighans from analysts
and
investors?
| Everyone should accept the fact that we are in a bear
| market and as such all the boats go down
Argh, that is the problem, when you have these outrageous
examples of
greedy, corrupt corporate executives cashing out (***AFTER
COOKING THE
BOOKS***), leaving others to sink
| Everyone should have been smart enough to sell stocks and
| put their money into cash or better yet short stocks
| when it was very clear that in the Fall of 2000 after the
| initial March 2000 sell off that we were going into
| a prolonged Bear market
"Should have been" !?!?!
That isn't really the issue. As mentioned above, the issue was
how excess
greed played out when "the books were cooked" to create a
false impression
of profitability
| Ellison probably took the money and ran when this
| became apparent to him and many others. I know I did.
So (regardless of whether Ellison is a good example, or not),
do you think
that there should be *any* accountability for the social
damage caused by
greed driven unethical accounting practices?
(fwiw, I'm sympathetic to libertarian/"Chicago school" free
market
ideology, but I fear t
RE: (Fwd/2)
Eric,
Have you considered the POSSIBILITY that Larry sold the stock without the
benefit of insider trading, and simply got lucky with his timing? After
all, the main reason Oracle stock has lost so much value is not due to
problems specific to the company, but due to problems in the market and
economy as a whole. So where would the insider info come into play? And if
he really did have insider info, and was acting unethically, why not sell
more shares? The amount he sold was probably less than 5% of his holdings.
I don't mean to defend ceo misconduct, corporate fraud, etc, I just think
you need look this particular accusation a little more objectively,
especially when you consider its source. I have great respect for McCain's
war record and heroism, but now he is a politician, a Senator no less.
IMHO, one can't take anything any politician says at face value. Given a
choice between honesty and self-promotion, I'm afraid politicians too often
choose the latter. And without getting into specifics about McCain, he
seems to be second in the Senate only to my own Sen. Schumer in his love of
getting on TV (Q: What's the most dangerous place in NY? A: Between Chuck
Schumer and a TV camera). Larry makes a convenient and easy target, someone
a politician knows he can attack, get a good soundbite, and have very little
chance of being challenged.
Gary
-Original Message-
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:13 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
trying again...
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Responsibility / Re: OT
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:14:39 -0400
| Original Message:
| -
| From: Johnson, M=2E
| Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:23:21 -0800
| To: ORACLE-L@fatcity=2Ecom
| Subject: RE: McCain on Larry Ellison and Corporate
Responsibility / Re: =
OT
| Not defending Ellison for anything,=20
Understood
| but it appears
| McCain is just another politician who is only interested
| in his future and he constantly takes on these "reform
| ideas" and just makes the matter worse
That sounds really cynical to me. Are you just speculating, or
do you have
any info to back that up?
Note that Oracle/Ellison attempted to buy off politicians here
in
Sacramento in order to stop the JLAC (legislative) audit of
Oracle's ELA
with the State of California
Note that Senator Sarbanes was on the same TV program ("Meet
the Press") as
McCain, and generally agreed with McCain that there is a
horrible lack of
corporate responsibility, and that reforming the institutions
designed to
protect the public's interests has been made extremely
difficult by the
influence of corrupt lobbyists and lack of effective campaign
reform
Tim Russert (a rare TV journalist with some integrity) and the
Senators
spent most of their time discussing the issue of putting
executive stock
options on the "expense" sheets so as to more correctly
reflect
profitability (or lack thereof)
Do you think it better serves the investment community for
sleazy corrupt
executives to be able to hide their shenanighans from analysts
and
investors?
| Everyone should accept the fact that we are in a bear
| market and as such all the boats go down
Argh, that is the problem, when you have these outrageous
examples of
greedy, corrupt corporate executives cashing out (***AFTER
COOKING THE
BOOKS***), leaving others to sink
| Everyone should have been smart enough to sell stocks and
| put their money into cash or better yet short stocks
| when it was very clear that in the Fall of 2000 after the
| initial March 2000 sell off that we were going into
| a prolonged Bear market
"Should have been" !?!?!
That isn't really the issue. As mentioned above, the issue was
how excess
greed played out when "the books were cooked" to create a
false impression
of profitability
| Ellison probably took the money and ran when this
| became apparent to him and many others. I know I did.
So (regardless of whether Ellison is a good example, or not),
do you think
that there should be *any* accountability for the social
damage caused by
greed driven unethical accounting practices?
(fwiw, I'm sympathetic to libertarian/"Chicago school" free
market
ideology, but I fear that like its opposite, leftist
utopianism, when taken
to extremes, it doesn't work all that well in the "real
world".)
regards,
ep
-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:53 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
OT - unix
My understanding is that this was the very first time Ellison
had ever sol=
d
Oracle stock, in over 25 years of the company's existence, in
2000, which =
is
the occasion that McCain (and you) are referring to=2E As you
might be aw=
are,
there was a far greater "opportunity" for Ellison to "cash
out" and leave
Oracle dangling in 1990, when the price dropped from around
$20 to $6 almo=
st
overnight after some financial-earning restatements=2E On
that occasion, =
he
would certainly have had prior knowledg
Re: (Fwd/2)
Hello Eric
I think that you misunderstood.
| Ellison probably took the money and ran when this
| became apparent to him and many others. I know I did.
So (regardless of whether Ellison is a good example, or not),
do you think that there should be *any* accountability for the social
damage caused by greed driven unethical accounting practices?
He wrote about investors that have stock and sell them when they see that
the market sink. What this have to do with shady or outright criminal
accounting practices?
I agree with you that whoever is responsible for cooking the books should
have to pay, from his own money, all the people that got hurt by this.
Yechiel Adar
Mehish
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:13 AM
> trying again...
>
> --- Forwarded message follows ---
> Responsibility / Re: OT
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:14:39 -0400
>
>
>
> | Original Message:
> | -
> | From: Johnson, M=2E
> | Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:23:21 -0800
> | To: ORACLE-L@fatcity=2Ecom
> | Subject: RE: McCain on Larry Ellison and Corporate
> Responsibility / Re: =
> OT
>
>
> | Not defending Ellison for anything,=20
>
> Understood
>
>
> | but it appears
> | McCain is just another politician who is only interested
> | in his future and he constantly takes on these "reform
> | ideas" and just makes the matter worse
>
>
> That sounds really cynical to me. Are you just speculating, or
> do you have
> any info to back that up?
>
> Note that Oracle/Ellison attempted to buy off politicians here
> in
> Sacramento in order to stop the JLAC (legislative) audit of
> Oracle's ELA
> with the State of California
>
> Note that Senator Sarbanes was on the same TV program ("Meet
> the Press") as
> McCain, and generally agreed with McCain that there is a
> horrible lack of
> corporate responsibility, and that reforming the institutions
> designed to
> protect the public's interests has been made extremely
> difficult by the
> influence of corrupt lobbyists and lack of effective campaign
> reform
>
> Tim Russert (a rare TV journalist with some integrity) and the
> Senators
> spent most of their time discussing the issue of putting
> executive stock
> options on the "expense" sheets so as to more correctly
> reflect
> profitability (or lack thereof)
>
> Do you think it better serves the investment community for
> sleazy corrupt
> executives to be able to hide their shenanighans from analysts
> and
> investors?
>
>
> | Everyone should accept the fact that we are in a bear
> | market and as such all the boats go down
>
>
> Argh, that is the problem, when you have these outrageous
> examples of
> greedy, corrupt corporate executives cashing out (***AFTER
> COOKING THE
> BOOKS***), leaving others to sink
>
>
> | Everyone should have been smart enough to sell stocks and
> | put their money into cash or better yet short stocks
> | when it was very clear that in the Fall of 2000 after the
> | initial March 2000 sell off that we were going into
> | a prolonged Bear market
>
>
> "Should have been" !?!?!
>
> That isn't really the issue. As mentioned above, the issue was
> how excess
> greed played out when "the books were cooked" to create a
> false impression
> of profitability
>
>
> | Ellison probably took the money and ran when this
> | became apparent to him and many others. I know I did.
>
>
> So (regardless of whether Ellison is a good example, or not),
> do you think
> that there should be *any* accountability for the social
> damage caused by
> greed driven unethical accounting practices?
>
> (fwiw, I'm sympathetic to libertarian/"Chicago school" free
> market
> ideology, but I fear that like its opposite, leftist
> utopianism, when taken
> to extremes, it doesn't work all that well in the "real
> world".)
>
> regards,
> ep
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:53 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> OT - unix
>
>
> My understanding is that this was the very first time Ellison
> had ever sol=
> d
> Oracle stock, in over 25 years of the company's existence, in
> 2000, which =
> is
> the occasion that McCain (and you) are referring to=2E As you
> might be aw=
> are,
> there was a far greater "opportunity" for Ellison to "cash
> out" and leave
> Oracle dangling in 1990, when the price dropped from around
> $20 to $6 almo=
> st
> overnight after some financial-earning restatements=2E On
> that occasion, =
> he
> would certainly have had prior knowledge of what was going to
> happen, to p=
> ut
> it mildly=2E In 2000, any foreknowledge of a long-term
> downturn (26 month=
> s
> and counting?) would have been worth far more than $700m,
> especially to
> someone holding several billions in equities=2E=2E=2E
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" L@fatcity=2Ecom>
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 10:13 PM
> unix
>
>
> > Speaking of herds, or at least what is left behind
