RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the indisposed team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become hoi poloi; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PM Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Arup Nanda INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Tell me about it! I've had exaclty the same experience about several years ago. Even though I was leading tech part of every critical project and was the contact whenever a serious problem occurred, the employer paid higher salary to all other team members because they were over 10 years older than me, they had 15 years of experience instead of my 3, but they couldn't do much more than standard database administration like adding datafiles and such with their experience. That was quite frustrating... but no problem anymore, now I'm on my own and pay my own salary ;) Tanel. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Tanel Poder INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
HR also doesn't have a technical track in many companies and the highest salaries usually go to those on the management track... so you either get promoted out of technical work and into management to get the salary you deserve (which kind of defeats the purpose) or the technical person sits at a lower pay level. When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was an executive or management... but so that they could pay me what I was worth. --- Arup Nanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the indisposed team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become hoi poloi; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PM Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
Re: Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
its commonly known that years of experience is more valuable than productivity or skill in the technical business. Who hasnt had a call from a recruiter when 9i came out about how much 9i experience you have. They dont ask you about any of the new features. They just want to know how long you used it. Its just something you have to live with. We dont make the rules. From: Tanel Poder [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/08/27 Wed AM 04:14:30 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Tell me about it! I've had exaclty the same experience about several years ago. Even though I was leading tech part of every critical project and was the contact whenever a serious problem occurred, the employer paid higher salary to all other team members because they were over 10 years older than me, they had 15 years of experience instead of my 3, but they couldn't do much more than standard database administration like adding datafiles and such with their experience. That was quite frustrating... but no problem anymore, now I'm on my own and pay my own salary ;) Tanel. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Tanel Poder INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
On 2003.08.27 07:44, Rachel Carmichael wrote: When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was an executive or management... but so that they could pay me what I was worth. For that, you should have been a CEO. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
I think there is a balance to be struck there... Being responsible means treating the employer well if it's not that bad a place to work; but it would be irresponsible to remain in an abusive work place. When my wife was a library technician, one day the manager of a subcontracting company told the employees that someone was coming to ask employees questions to see if his firm was treating them well. Tell them like it is, he said. So my wife did. Later (once the interviews were over) my wife was blasted in front of the other employees during a staff meeting for describing her working conditions. She basically told the interviewer that she was doing the work of two people, that they often didn't have the resources they needed to get their job done properly. That same morning, after the staff meeting, she got a phone call from a librarian in a public school, who was looking for a library technician... My wife said give me two weeks and I can be there. She then went to see her manager, who offered her $1000 on the spot to keep her. That made her even angrier: She told him that it was too little too late, if he treated his employees fairly from the very beginning, she wouldn't be leaving. She left. Later she learned that to replace her, they hired THREE people, not two. The subcontracting firm therefore had to pay for three employees instead of one. Mind you the manager could then say he was managing x+2 employees, not x. A good career move for him? Look, his firm grew. Patrice. -Original Message- [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Hey, all you gotta do is tell them 5 years. Like, it makes a difference to what they know of it? Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:59 PM in the technical business. Who hasnt had a call from a recruiter when 9i came out about how much 9i experience you have. They dont ask you about any of the new features. They just want to know how long you used it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Reminds me of The Peter Principal. Promoted to your level of incompetance. Henry -Original Message- Rachel Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 7:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L HR also doesn't have a technical track in many companies and the highest salaries usually go to those on the management track... so you either get promoted out of technical work and into management to get the salary you deserve (which kind of defeats the purpose) or the technical person sits at a lower pay level. When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was an executive or management... but so that they could pay me what I was worth. --- Arup Nanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the indisposed team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become hoi poloi; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PM Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net --
RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
NASA report... cutbacks + insulation against risk using procedures and policies. This is getting into OT though. Patrice. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Reminds me of The Peter Principal. Promoted to your level of incompetance. Henry -Original Message- Rachel Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 7:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L HR also doesn't have a technical track in many companies and the highest salaries usually go to those on the management track... so you either get promoted out of technical work and into management to get the salary you deserve (which kind of defeats the purpose) or the technical person sits at a lower pay level. When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was an executive or management... but so that they could pay me what I was worth. --- Arup Nanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the indisposed team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become hoi poloi; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PM Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing:
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Tanel Poder scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: Tell me about it! I've had exactly the same experience about several years ago. Even though I was leading tech part of every critical project and was the contact whenever a serious problem occurred, the employer paid higher salary to all other team members because they were over 10 years older than me, they had 15 years of experience instead of my 3, but they couldn't do much more than standard database administration like adding data files and such with their experience. That was quite frustrating... but no problem anymore, now I'm on my own and pay my own salary ;) Tanel. the other fun thing is degrees. now i have none, nor an OCP [let's not go down that road again, OK?] so i don't even get interviewed for many jobs, and the ones i do i get offered less money. and this is despite my 15 or so years of experience as a DBA, and more as a developer and/or programmer. but i don't have that magic piece of paper. -- Bill Shrek Thater ORACLE DBA BAARF Party member #25 [EMAIL PROTECTED] What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say. - Ralph Waldo Emerson -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
I working on a development project that I'm trying to take an ERD an convert it to object oriented. Does anyone know a tool or path to follow to accomplish this? TIA Jared Still [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone else noticed?Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions aboutsuch things as data modeling, application security architecture,physical database design, and Oracle DesignerNot so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projectstaking place? Seems like in house development died with thedot bomb and has not begun to recover.I know at my place of employment there is very little development,but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( )Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle,migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running.Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss somenot having a good development project. Ah, to do! some real data modeling again.Just some food for thought.Jared-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net-- Author: Jared StillINET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.comSan Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services-To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail messageto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and inthe message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You mayalso send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Title: Message Take Rt 8 south until you come to the intersection with I-95. Then turn south (toward NYC) and stay on it until you see the exits for Miami. Then go to the beach and enjoy yourself. Good luck. --Mladen GogalaOracle DBA -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of M.GodlewskiSent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:44 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed I working on a development project that I'm trying to take an ERD an convert it to object oriented. Does anyone know a tool or path to follow to accomplish this? TIA Jared Still [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone else noticed?Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions aboutsuch things as data modeling, application security architecture,physical database design, and Oracle DesignerNot so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projectstaking place? Seems like in house development died with thedot bomb and has not begun to recover.I know at my place of employment there is very little development,but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( )Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle,migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running.Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss somenot having a good development project. Ah, to do! some real data modeling again.Just some food for thought.Jared-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net-- Author: Jared StillINET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.comSan Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services-To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail messageto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and inthe message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You mayalso send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). Do you Yahoo!?The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error,please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.Wang Trading LLCand any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity.
RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
We once had a principal named Peter in grade school. I think he reached that position through the Peter Principle. Jared Henry Poras [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/27/2003 06:39 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed Reminds me of The Peter Principal. Promoted to your level of incompetance. Henry -Original Message- Rachel Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 7:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L HR also doesn't have a technical track in many companies and the highest salaries usually go to those on the management track... so you either get promoted out of technical work and into management to get the salary you deserve (which kind of defeats the purpose) or the technical person sits at a lower pay level. When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was an executive or management... but so that they could pay me what I was worth. --- Arup Nanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the indisposed team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become hoi poloi; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PM Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E
RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
wait - is this OT?? We once had a principal named Peter in grade school. I think he reached that position through the Peter Principle. Jared "Henry Poras" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/27/2003 06:39 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changedReminds me of "The Peter Principal". Promoted to your level of incompetance.Henry-Original Message-Rachel CarmichaelSent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 7:44 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LHR also doesn't have a "technical track" in many companies and thehighest salaries usually go to those on the "management track"... soyou either get promoted out of technical work and into management toget the salary you deserve (which kind of defeats the purpose) or thetechnical person sits at a lower pay level.When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was anexecutive or management... but so that they could pay me what I wasworth.--- Arup Nanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid "specialist" boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the "indisposed" team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become "hoi poloi"; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PMPartially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared JaredOn Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people "abused" the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave --Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author:INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE
RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Yes, my bad. And I'm supposed to keep an eye on this stuff. This thread has gone so far astray we should end it. Jared Mercadante, Thomas F [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/27/2003 12:14 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed wait - is this OT?? We once had a principal named Peter in grade school. I think he reached that position through the Peter Principle. Jared Henry Poras [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/27/2003 06:39 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: [UBE?] Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed Reminds me of The Peter Principal. Promoted to your level of incompetance. Henry -Original Message- Rachel Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 7:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L HR also doesn't have a technical track in many companies and the highest salaries usually go to those on the management track... so you either get promoted out of technical work and into management to get the salary you deserve (which kind of defeats the purpose) or the technical person sits at a lower pay level. When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was an executive or management... but so that they could pay me what I was worth. --- Arup Nanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the indisposed team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become hoi poloi; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PM Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Rachel I thought everyone who worked in a bank was at least a Vice President...? :-)) Robert (Vice President of myself, looking for a President). -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 8/27/2003 6:44 AM HR also doesn't have a technical track in many companies and the highest salaries usually go to those on the management track... so you either get promoted out of technical work and into management to get the salary you deserve (which kind of defeats the purpose) or the technical person sits at a lower pay level. When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was an executive or management... but so that they could pay me what I was worth. --- Arup Nanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the indisposed team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become hoi poloi; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PM Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
But I thought you were already married? :) Pete Controlling developers is like herding cats. Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that! Bruce Pihlamae, long term Oracle DBA. -Original Message- Freeman Robert - IL Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 7:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel I thought everyone who worked in a bank was at least a Vice President...? :-)) Robert (Vice President of myself, looking for a President). -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 8/27/2003 6:44 AM HR also doesn't have a technical track in many companies and the highest salaries usually go to those on the management track... so you either get promoted out of technical work and into management to get the salary you deserve (which kind of defeats the purpose) or the technical person sits at a lower pay level. When I left Citibank, I was a Vice President... not because I was an executive or management... but so that they could pay me what I was worth. --- Arup Nanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part of the problem lies with the old human vices - jealousy comes into mind, first. The problem is mostly not with companies but immediate supervisers, who often struggle with the prospect that the subordinate will get more money - and they resent it to very core. They would rather hire someone off the street with more money than give the old failthful the due share. The other problem is the HR departments magic wand yardstick of salary and compensation which dictates, often incorrectly, how much a particular job's adequate compensation is. Never mind the fact that a regular HR joe doesn't understand DBAs from Developers - so the highly paid specialist boils it dall own to a simple yardstick - number of years of experience! Several years ago I rose to the postition of the lead DBA at a company when I was 24, but my salary was less than the lowest of the 15 DBAs in the team. Reason - my years of experience was simply didn't show high enough in the yardstick to warrant a higher salary. It was even more painful when I was the fail-over contact for all members of the team. When the pager goes off in the middle of the night, out I go to fix the problem in the HR database and just making sure all is well, especially in the salary table, where the indisposed team member's pay glares, almost mockingly! I left; the new person was almost myage, but the negotiated salary was higher. The HR department's magic yardstick was broken by the departmental manager. Similarly, the in the new place I went, there was no problem in getting a much fatter paycheck. Morale - when you stick around, you become hoi poloi; the knight in the shining armor is the one who comes from outside! Regards, Arup - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:49 PM Partially true. I've seen the IT cutbacks at a company where people almost never leave. Many IT folk have been there 10+ year, a surprising number of them 20+ years. The flip side to the salary story is something of a paradox. As a person became more experienced, learned new technologies, and as the company embraced more technologies, the employees at times may not be paid commensurate with their abilities. I experienced that once. The only way to increase my earning power was to leave. My salary jumped 50% immediately. This has no doubt happened to a number of folks. The silly side of this is that the former employer then had to hire a replacement at the going rate, or get a contractor in. Bottom line, they lose an experienced employee, and end up paying as much or more as if they had tried to retain said employee. Jared Jared On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 18:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a lot of IT people abused the situation during the boom days. Company loyalty meant nothing ... we'll go wherever the biggest paychecks are. Don't stay anywhere too long. that's for losers. Change jobs if we felt the least bit abused and unappreciated. That'll teach them to screw with me! In general a holier-than-thou attitude. The times allowed us to do that. But it also means a lot of non-IT people developed an opinion of IT folk as not being team players, only out for themselves, not committed to the company, etc. So when the chance comes to cut back, where are you going to look? :-) Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Here's a perfect example of an email that should never have been sent. Sigh... I'll learn one of these days. This does not characterize the people I work for, as they're a pretty good bunch and actually do understand technology. It's more of a generalized rant fueled by past experiences. Should have hit 'delete' on this one instead of 'send'. Jared On Sun, 2003-08-24 at 11:19, Jared Still wrote: Mladen, My version of the explanation of this goes back to childhood. When you were in school, just which crowd were those execs in? The 'in' crowd, the jocks, the party hounds. If like me, you were one of the 'eggheads', you didn't fit in so well with their clique, and maybe you still don't. When in school, I was told I would be more popular if I wasn't so smart. I was even told that once as an adult. After pondering that for a bit, I decided they could all bite the green weenie if they didn't like it. This is probably how I earned my Hawkeye Pierce like cynicism, which I do work hard at keeping in check, lest it cause me more problems with the former 'in' folk that I now work for. 'They' don't like it when people are smarter than they are, and understand things they don't understand, and can't hope to understand. Hmm, this is getting a but cynical, so I guess I'll stop before I provide too much fodder for an HR type that has finally learned how to use google. Jared On Sat, 2003-08-23 at 17:19, Mladen Gogala wrote: On 2003.08.23 18:34, Tim Gorman wrote: Six years ago, a CIO commented to me, waving down a corridor which had offices full of developers, If I had my way, I'd get rid of all of them and replace them with lawyers. We'd buy applications instead of building them and then sue the vendors. My response was something along the lines of if you think developers are expensive, go price some lawyers, but it certainly bounced off him. At the time, I took it as just another colorful comment from a colorful guy. But he was dead serious, along with his CIO/CFO brethren, and the passing of Y2K and the dot-com bubble pop has expedited his prediction... I always wondered where does this prejudice against us, computer geeks (my apologies to anyone offended by that expression, but I'm a hard core computer geek) comes from? I must say that this prejudice is very hard to understand. IT people are very well educated, very hard working, regularly willing to work long hours and sacrifice their weekends for the benefit of the company. I found that very same attitude against the darned geeks at several executives and managers of several companies I worked for. Even if lawyers are much more expensive the programmers, system and database administrators, application designers, they are still very willing to make the switch. I'm not quite sure why are we so hated? Why would anyone want to kill a nice and seet little wabbit? -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Jared - a line caught my attention... When in school, I was told I would be more popular if I wasn't so smart. I was even told that once as an adult. School?! If someone were to ask me if I had any contemporary knowledge of such damagement behaviour, all I could say would be 'You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment'. * This e-mail message, and any files transmitted with it, are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee. If this message was not addressed to you, you have received it in error and any copying, distribution or other use of any part of it is strictly prohibited. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of the British Geological Survey. The security of e-mail communication cannot be guaranteed and the BGS accepts no liability for claims arising as a result of the use of this medium to transmit messages from or to the BGS. .http://www.bgs.ac.uk * -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Robson, Peter INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Hi, This group is kind of boring for me because I don't have chance to answer questions, those gurus are so fast, they reply almost everything. they told you wasn't so smart or wasn't so... smart :) Sinardy -Original Message- Sent: 25 August 2003 18:00 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared - a line caught my attention... When in school, I was told I would be more popular if I wasn't so smart. I was even told that once as an adult. School?! If someone were to ask me if I had any contemporary knowledge of such damagement behaviour, all I could say would be 'You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment'. * This e-mail message, and any files transmitted with it, are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee. If this message was not addressed to you, you have received it in error and any copying, distribution or other use of any part of it is strictly prohibited. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of the British Geological Survey. The security of e-mail communication cannot be guaranteed and the BGS accepts no liability for claims arising as a result of the use of this medium to transmit messages from or to the BGS. .http://www.bgs.ac.uk * -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Robson, Peter INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Sinardy Xing INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Here's a perfect example of an email that should never have been sent. Sigh... I'll learn one of these days. This does not characterize the people I work for, as they're a pretty good bunch and actually do understand technology. It's more of a generalized rant fueled by past experiences. Should have hit 'delete' on this one instead of 'send'. Jared On Sun, 2003-08-24 at 11:19, Jared Still wrote: Mladen, My version of the explanation of this goes back to childhood. When you were in school, just which crowd were those execs in? The 'in' crowd, the jocks, the party hounds. If like me, you were one of the 'eggheads', you didn't fit in so well with their clique, and maybe you still don't. When in school, I was told I would be more popular if I wasn't so smart. I was even told that once as an adult. After pondering that for a bit, I decided they could all bite the green weenie if they didn't like it. This is probably how I earned my Hawkeye Pierce like cynicism, which I do work hard at keeping in check, lest it cause me more problems with the former 'in' folk that I now work for. 'They' don't like it when people are smarter than they are, and understand things they don't understand, and can't hope to understand. Hmm, this is getting a but cynical, so I guess I'll stop before I provide too much fodder for an HR type that has finally learned how to use google. Jared On Sat, 2003-08-23 at 17:19, Mladen Gogala wrote: On 2003.08.23 18:34, Tim Gorman wrote: Six years ago, a CIO commented to me, waving down a corridor which had offices full of developers, If I had my way, I'd get rid of all of them and replace them with lawyers. We'd buy applications instead of building them and then sue the vendors. My response was something along the lines of if you think developers are expensive, go price some lawyers, but it certainly bounced off him. At the time, I took it as just another colorful comment from a colorful guy. But he was dead serious, along with his CIO/CFO brethren, and the passing of Y2K and the dot-com bubble pop has expedited his prediction... I always wondered where does this prejudice against us, computer geeks (my apologies to anyone offended by that expression, but I'm a hard core computer geek) comes from? I must say that this prejudice is very hard to understand. IT people are very well educated, very hard working, regularly willing to work long hours and sacrifice their weekends for the benefit of the company. I found that very same attitude against the darned geeks at several executives and managers of several companies I worked for. Even if lawyers are much more expensive the programmers, system and database administrators, application designers, they are still very willing to make the switch. I'm not quite sure why are we so hated? Why would anyone want to kill a nice and seet little wabbit? -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
On 2003.08.23 18:34, Tim Gorman wrote: Six years ago, a CIO commented to me, waving down a corridor which had offices full of developers, If I had my way, I'd get rid of all of them and replace them with lawyers. We'd buy applications instead of building them and then sue the vendors. My response was something along the lines of if you think developers are expensive, go price some lawyers, but it certainly bounced off him. At the time, I took it as just another colorful comment from a colorful guy. But he was dead serious, along with his CIO/CFO brethren, and the passing of Y2K and the dot-com bubble pop has expedited his prediction... I always wondered where does this prejudice against us, computer geeks (my apologies to anyone offended by that expression, but I'm a hard core computer geek) comes from? I must say that this prejudice is very hard to understand. IT people are very well educated, very hard working, regularly willing to work long hours and sacrifice their weekends for the benefit of the company. I found that very same attitude against the darned geeks at several executives and managers of several companies I worked for. Even if lawyers are much more expensive the programmers, system and database administrators, application designers, they are still very willing to make the switch. I'm not quite sure why are we so hated? Why would anyone want to kill a nice and seet little wabbit? -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
- Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:19 PM On 2003.08.23 18:34, Tim Gorman wrote: Six years ago, a CIO commented to me, waving down a corridor which had offices full of developers, If I had my way, I'd get rid of all of them and replace them with lawyers. We'd buy applications instead of building them and then sue the vendors. My response was something along the lines of if you think developers are expensive, go price some lawyers, but it certainly bounced off him. At the time, I took it as just another colorful comment from a colorful guy. But he was dead serious, along with his CIO/CFO brethren, and the passing of Y2K and the dot-com bubble pop has expedited his prediction... I always wondered where does this prejudice against us, computer geeks (my apologies to anyone offended by that expression, but I'm a hard core computer geek) comes from? I must say that this prejudice is very hard to understand. IT people are very well educated, very hard working, regularly willing to work long hours and sacrifice their weekends for the benefit of the company. I found that very same attitude against the darned geeks at several executives and managers of several companies I worked for. Even if lawyers are much more expensive the programmers, system and database administrators, application designers, they are still very willing to make the switch. I'm not quite sure why are we so hated? Why would anyone want to kill a nice and seet little wabbit? Its perfectly understandable. Before the resession salaries for IT were extremely high. IT people could rake their employers over the coals because they could make a phone call and get another job. Throw in the fact that generally speaking 50% of programmers are incompetent(alot of us believe this) and still made the high salaries. So you had and still have alot of people talking up what they can do, getting large salaries, and not producing. Also throw in the fact that alot of technical people have personality problems. I dont believe that most IT people are like this, but it only takes a minority to make the rest of us look bad. Here is an example. I worked with someone who is a partner in a local Oracle consulting company. He told me that his company once hired a 'senior' developer who on his first day of work named his variables after 'Mary had a little lamb'. They fired him the first day and deservedly so. Another big flaw with alot of technical people is a lack of communication skills. They cant get across the reason why its going to take so long or they dont know how long its going to take. It then comes in over budget and takes too long. If you look at other professions you have standards to follow that can track how long something will take. Now its gotten better, but its still flawed and years away from being sound principle. Management wants sound bites. It will take this long, it will cost this much. I think there is also a lack of business knowledge on our part. I think that hurts us in understanding the 'whys' and 'hows' of business. Most importantly, managers are supposed to make it as quick as possible and as cheap as possible. Every business constantly tries to cut costs. Its the way of the world and we are a pretty heft cost. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ryan INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
On 2003.08.23 21:04, Ryan wrote: , but its still flawed and years away from being sound principle. Management wants sound bites. It will take this long, it will cost this much. Well, the interviewer should normally vinow out the chaff. If he cannot evaluate the candidate's communication skills or lack of thereof, then he doesn't do her his job, for which he's usually handsomly paid, as a member of HR dept. Yet, nobody is complaining about that. I've never seen such a bunch of morons as in the HR departments and yet, nobody is complaining. I was once told that I should have patience toward those of us whose native tongue is not English, after an altercation with a Spanish speaking person. The problem is that I'm from Croatia and that my native tongue is not English, so that a sentence like that does not ring well in my ears. The person who told me that was a proud owner of the HR manager title. Nobody was complaining that she's expensive. I think there is also a lack of business knowledge on our part. I think that hurts us in understanding the 'whys' and 'hows' of business. Oh, but we do know business. I know how to recover and tune databases which are crucial for business. Does anyone want to impose that fabled business knowledge on truck drivers or crane operators? Hopefully, I'm not expected to be an investment banker? Why wouldn't managers learn a little bit of DBA job instead? Most importantly, managers are supposed to make it as quick as possible and as cheap as possible. Every business constantly tries to cut costs. Its the way of the world and we are a pretty heft cost. Yet they would hire lawyers who are more expensive then the IT people. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
There is something in replacing IT with lawyers. If an IT person does an error then the company get sued and need lawyers to defend themselves. It is better to let the developer do the error while is on the supplier side and then sue then and get money. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:34 AM Gary Dodge has long included a wonderful quote in his email signature: Building tomorrow's legacy systems today, one crisis at a time. Well, those new legacy systems have been built and they are in production now. Hence, the changes to the nature of this list... Six years ago, a CIO commented to me, waving down a corridor which had offices full of developers, If I had my way, I'd get rid of all of them and replace them with lawyers. We'd buy applications instead of building them and then sue the vendors. My response was something along the lines of if you think developers are expensive, go price some lawyers, but it certainly bounced off him. At the time, I took it as just another colorful comment from a colorful guy. But he was dead serious, along with his CIO/CFO brethren, and the passing of Y2K and the dot-com bubble pop has expedited his prediction... Anyway, I personally think the only fruitful place for custom application development these days is decision support and data warehousing. Packaged business-support systems and operational-support systems are mature and viable; the only thing needed there is systems integration. Any custom development projects in these areas are the likely result of poor requirements analysis... :-) However, decision-support systems have not yet matured to that point, and at the present time I think they still require much custom development, or at least advanced and imaginative systems integration. on 8/22/03 9:14 AM, Stephane Paquette at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It also seems that once the big canned application are up and running, companies are outsourcing more and more the operations. Those canned applications need to be integrated and that's the best and last place where DBA and dev people can be today, in the BI place. Here, in the architecture principles we are buying instead of developping. That's easy to do for payroll and that kind of stuff. But when you have over 20 bought applications, you need something to integrate all this to an ODS and or DW. And those 2 are not in the canned application market (not yet, I've heard from an Oracle DW consulting manager that Oracle wants to automate that part also). Stephane Paquette Administrateur de bases de donnees Database Administrator Standard Life www.standardlife.ca Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 11:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in his Practical Databases when he talks about DBA being a repository of knowledge. No, the role of the DBA today is the one of a crane operator: just get the darned thing going, buddy. DBA is a mechanic that fixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of IT is no longer to be at the forefront of the organization, but to keep thins running and do what business people tell them to do. Companies are no longer doing development are leaving cooking to the cooks and software development to the big software companies. One of the reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated, liberal and hippie computer geeks and somewhat less educated old school drill sergeant type managers who want everybody to be at their desks at 7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no surf naked Dilbert T-shirts or I am a DMCA circumvention device T-shirts. Basically, what I'm noticing is sort of returning to the roots cultural movement where business management no longer wants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When cost cutting decisions are made, IT people are the 1st to go. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. IT applications are going to be as standardized as a stapler, so there is less and less need for development. Friends, we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of a second hand car salesman or a real estate agent. -- Mladen Gogala
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Tim wrote Any custom development projects in these areas are the likely result of poor requirements analysis... :-) Hey we do that Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Mladen, My version of the explanation of this goes back to childhood. When you were in school, just which crowd were those execs in? The 'in' crowd, the jocks, the party hounds. If like me, you were one of the 'eggheads', you didn't fit in so well with their clique, and maybe you still don't. When in school, I was told I would be more popular if I wasn't so smart. I was even told that once as an adult. After pondering that for a bit, I decided they could all bite the green weenie if they didn't like it. This is probably how I earned my Hawkeye Pierce like cynicism, which I do work hard at keeping in check, lest it cause me more problems with the former 'in' folk that I now work for. 'They' don't like it when people are smarter than they are, and understand things they don't understand, and can't hope to understand. Hmm, this is getting a but cynical, so I guess I'll stop before I provide too much fodder for an HR type that has finally learned how to use google. Jared On Sat, 2003-08-23 at 17:19, Mladen Gogala wrote: On 2003.08.23 18:34, Tim Gorman wrote: Six years ago, a CIO commented to me, waving down a corridor which had offices full of developers, If I had my way, I'd get rid of all of them and replace them with lawyers. We'd buy applications instead of building them and then sue the vendors. My response was something along the lines of if you think developers are expensive, go price some lawyers, but it certainly bounced off him. At the time, I took it as just another colorful comment from a colorful guy. But he was dead serious, along with his CIO/CFO brethren, and the passing of Y2K and the dot-com bubble pop has expedited his prediction... I always wondered where does this prejudice against us, computer geeks (my apologies to anyone offended by that expression, but I'm a hard core computer geek) comes from? I must say that this prejudice is very hard to understand. IT people are very well educated, very hard working, regularly willing to work long hours and sacrifice their weekends for the benefit of the company. I found that very same attitude against the darned geeks at several executives and managers of several companies I worked for. Even if lawyers are much more expensive the programmers, system and database administrators, application designers, they are still very willing to make the switch. I'm not quite sure why are we so hated? Why would anyone want to kill a nice and seet little wabbit? -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Gary Dodge has long included a wonderful quote in his email signature: Building tomorrow's legacy systems today, one crisis at a time. Well, those new legacy systems have been built and they are in production now. Hence, the changes to the nature of this list... Six years ago, a CIO commented to me, waving down a corridor which had offices full of developers, If I had my way, I'd get rid of all of them and replace them with lawyers. We'd buy applications instead of building them and then sue the vendors. My response was something along the lines of if you think developers are expensive, go price some lawyers, but it certainly bounced off him. At the time, I took it as just another colorful comment from a colorful guy. But he was dead serious, along with his CIO/CFO brethren, and the passing of Y2K and the dot-com bubble pop has expedited his prediction... Anyway, I personally think the only fruitful place for custom application development these days is decision support and data warehousing. Packaged business-support systems and operational-support systems are mature and viable; the only thing needed there is systems integration. Any custom development projects in these areas are the likely result of poor requirements analysis... :-) However, decision-support systems have not yet matured to that point, and at the present time I think they still require much custom development, or at least advanced and imaginative systems integration. on 8/22/03 9:14 AM, Stephane Paquette at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It also seems that once the big canned application are up and running, companies are outsourcing more and more the operations. Those canned applications need to be integrated and that's the best and last place where DBA and dev people can be today, in the BI place. Here, in the architecture principles we are buying instead of developping. That's easy to do for payroll and that kind of stuff. But when you have over 20 bought applications, you need something to integrate all this to an ODS and or DW. And those 2 are not in the canned application market (not yet, I've heard from an Oracle DW consulting manager that Oracle wants to automate that part also). Stephane Paquette Administrateur de bases de donnees Database Administrator Standard Life www.standardlife.ca Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 11:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in his Practical Databases when he talks about DBA being a repository of knowledge. No, the role of the DBA today is the one of a crane operator: just get the darned thing going, buddy. DBA is a mechanic that fixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of IT is no longer to be at the forefront of the organization, but to keep thins running and do what business people tell them to do. Companies are no longer doing development are leaving cooking to the cooks and software development to the big software companies. One of the reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated, liberal and hippie computer geeks and somewhat less educated old school drill sergeant type managers who want everybody to be at their desks at 7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no surf naked Dilbert T-shirts or I am a DMCA circumvention device T-shirts. Basically, what I'm noticing is sort of returning to the roots cultural movement where business management no longer wants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When cost cutting decisions are made, IT people are the 1st to go. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. IT applications are going to be as standardized as a stapler, so there is less and less need for development. Friends, we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of a second hand car salesman or a real estate agent. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -Original Message- Stephane Paquette Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That's why my post on historic tables and views seem lonely ;-) Stephane -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Yes I would say that most of the topics have been more in line with operational issues. I think RMAN has probably had a higher hit in the conversation counter and that i guess is due to more DBA's flirting with it in there environment, Roberts book probably helps. Since I am fortunate enough to be working with in a development project I will have to see what I can do to stir up some conversations. Should have a major AQ design sub project coming up, so here's hoping Maybe now that there is signs of life back in the US economy things might become a bit more active in the development world, unless America has shipped all development work offshore these days. Its Friday arvo and almost beer o'clock so the brain is about to hit neutral. Cheers -- = Peter McLarty E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical ConsultantWWW: http://www.mincom.com APAC Technical Services Phone: +61 (0)7 3303 3461 Brisbane, AustraliaMobile: +61 (0)402 094 238 Facsimile: +61 (0)7 3303 3048 = If people did not sometimes do silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein = Mincom The People, The Experience, The Vision = This transmission is for the intended addressee only and is confidential information. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete it and notify the sender. The contents of this e-mail are the opinion of the writer only and are not endorsed by the Mincom Group of companies unless expressly stated otherwise. Jared Still [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 22/08/2003 04:19 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Nature of Oracle-l has changed Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Jared, I agree that the development has declined at a lot of sites. We are a VB shop and damagement has decided to outsource the hosting of our reports database and the web based development of the application to access the reports database. I soon will go from a 84 GIG database to a 5 GIG database that houses 5 in-house applications. I guess that it is cheaper to outsource than pay for training of your employees. All of the changes in the bottom line on the financial reports have a lot of people scrambling to increase their knowledge in different arenas to enable their continued employment. If you look at the different threads that have been in the email's, it points to the fact that a lot of oracle users are testing and trying the newer OS's and Oracle combinations. I think that this points out the fact that a lot of the DBA are trying to increase their knowledge and worth as well as damagement trying to show a better bottom line. The great advantage with this list is that a lot of users have tried a lot of different combinations (OS,hardware,Oracle versions) and have solved a lot of problems. The questions are posted and there is an abundant supply of answers available. Times are changing and the dinosaur will become extinct if the don't become like a shark.. My 2$. Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/22/03 02:19AM Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
That's why my post on historic tables and views seem lonely ;-) Stephane -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Paquette INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in his Practical Databases when he talks about DBA being a repository of knowledge. No, the role of the DBA today is the one of a crane operator: just get the darned thing going, buddy. DBA is a mechanic that fixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of IT is no longer to be at the forefront of the organization, but to keep thins running and do what business people tell them to do. Companies are no longer doing development are leaving cooking to the cooks and software development to the big software companies. One of the reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated, liberal and hippie computer geeks and somewhat less educated old school drill sergeant type managers who want everybody to be at their desks at 7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no surf naked Dilbert T-shirts or I am a DMCA circumvention device T-shirts. Basically, what I'm noticing is sort of returning to the roots cultural movement where business management no longer wants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When cost cutting decisions are made, IT people are the 1st to go. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. IT applications are going to be as standardized as a stapler, so there is less and less need for development. Friends, we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of a second hand car salesman or a real estate agent. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -Original Message- Stephane Paquette Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That's why my post on historic tables and views seem lonely ;-) Stephane -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Paquette INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Jared, Yes, the nature of the list has changed, so have the times. While development work here is not slowing, the direction that we're going in has changed. Oracle's development tools are just about history here replaced by PeopleSlop and JAVA. Also I've spent a significant amount of time delving into open source database options such as PostGreSQL and MySql (soon to be off the open source list I do believe). I have the advantage of a CIO who does not like having the business too dependent on a single vendor for anything. I must admit I don't agree since having a multitude of vendors involved causes problem resolution to stretch out since they like to point fingers at each other. Also I think MetaLink has improved a whole lot. I find 80 to 90% of the answers on Oracle related questions on MetaLink. BTW: If you think this list has changed, subscribe to ODTUG-L. That list has just about died!! Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
OK, who let Chicken Little out of his room?? As someone at a location that is doing a lot of third party application buying, yes we in some ways are crane operators and mechanics. But then comes the fun of integrating the data from that new application into the remainder of the applications in place. 99% of the time these interactions, and reporting needs, are outside of the vendors scope of knowledge. SO who do you think gets the job? You guessed it, the DBA. Are we dinosaurs? Yes, if you don't open your eyes to other possibilities. I believe the mantra needs to be evolve and prosper, stagnate and die. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 11:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in his Practical Databases when he talks about DBA being a repository of knowledge. No, the role of the DBA today is the one of a crane operator: just get the darned thing going, buddy. DBA is a mechanic that fixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of IT is no longer to be at the forefront of the organization, but to keep thins running and do what business people tell them to do. Companies are no longer doing development are leaving cooking to the cooks and software development to the big software companies. One of the reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated, liberal and hippie computer geeks and somewhat less educated old school drill sergeant type managers who want everybody to be at their desks at 7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no surf naked Dilbert T-shirts or I am a DMCA circumvention device T-shirts. Basically, what I'm noticing is sort of returning to the roots cultural movement where business management no longer wants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When cost cutting decisions are made, IT people are the 1st to go. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. IT applications are going to be as standardized as a stapler, so there is less and less need for development. Friends, we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of a second hand car salesman or a real estate agent. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -Original Message- Stephane Paquette Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That's why my post on historic tables and views seem lonely ;-) Stephane -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Paquette INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to:
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
It also seems that once the big canned application are up and running, companies are outsourcing more and more the operations. Those canned applications need to be integrated and that's the best and last place where DBA and dev people can be today, in the BI place. Here, in the architecture principles we are buying instead of developping. That's easy to do for payroll and that kind of stuff. But when you have over 20 bought applications, you need something to integrate all this to an ODS and or DW. And those 2 are not in the canned application market (not yet, I've heard from an Oracle DW consulting manager that Oracle wants to automate that part also). Stephane Paquette Administrateur de bases de donnees Database Administrator Standard Life www.standardlife.ca Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 11:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in his Practical Databases when he talks about DBA being a repository of knowledge. No, the role of the DBA today is the one of a crane operator: just get the darned thing going, buddy. DBA is a mechanic that fixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of IT is no longer to be at the forefront of the organization, but to keep thins running and do what business people tell them to do. Companies are no longer doing development are leaving cooking to the cooks and software development to the big software companies. One of the reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated, liberal and hippie computer geeks and somewhat less educated old school drill sergeant type managers who want everybody to be at their desks at 7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no surf naked Dilbert T-shirts or I am a DMCA circumvention device T-shirts. Basically, what I'm noticing is sort of returning to the roots cultural movement where business management no longer wants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When cost cutting decisions are made, IT people are the 1st to go. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. IT applications are going to be as standardized as a stapler, so there is less and less need for development. Friends, we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of a second hand car salesman or a real estate agent. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -Original Message- Stephane Paquette Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That's why my post on historic tables and views seem lonely ;-) Stephane -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Paquette INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list
RE: RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Mladen, There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. Granted for these functions, which are rarely at the core of your business. However, by turning to canned applications for everything, firms are doing nothing that turning themselves into commodities - the road to bust for those unable to sustain a price war. And most canned applications of some breadth seem to require a degree of 'parameterization' which demands teams often bigger (and more expensive) than yesterday's in-house development teams. Interestingly, the amount of data which everybody is storing seems to outpace Moore's law by a comfortable factor. Which, if nothing else, proves that the payroll and HR software is not where the action is. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. Wait for 10G, which takes care of itself :-). Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
There is another problem with canned applications. The damanagement has to make a choice to either bend the business to match the application of bend the application to match the business. From my point of view, the latter is happening more than the former. Also, as a side note, I believe the list's tone has changed as companies are trying to find cheaper solutions to their database needs. Although in the end run Sql*Server and DB2 come out close to Oracle in cost, they hide most of the added stuff as either third party applications or else unmentioned extras that you'll need. Oracle just bundles it all up front making then look more expensive than the others. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:59 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mladen, There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. Granted for these functions, which are rarely at the core of your business. However, by turning to canned applications for everything, firms are doing nothing that turning themselves into commodities - the road to bust for those unable to sustain a price war. And most canned applications of some breadth seem to require a degree of 'parameterization' which demands teams often bigger (and more expensive) than yesterday's in-house development teams. Interestingly, the amount of data which everybody is storing seems to outpace Moore's law by a comfortable factor. Which, if nothing else, proves that the payroll and HR software is not where the action is. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. Wait for 10G, which takes care of itself :-). Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Do you see outsourcing orientation to the canned products in Germany? I imagined that Siemens, Software AG, MBB (Airbus) and some other companies must be doing heavy development there, and that, given the language barrier, the supply for the off the shelf products is not as good as here in the US. The analysis from my earlier message was depicting my view of the situation here in the US. Situation is probably very similar in UK, because their language is very similar to the American (why don't they adopt the ANSI spelling rules, so that I don't have to think about rumour, humour, colour, pavement, tube, fag and alike?), but I wasn't so sure about the rest of the EU. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -Original Message- Stefan Jahnke Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 1:00 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi Mladen I guess you summarized the whole drama of IT today pretty well. I'm already VERY concerned about the near future (esp. as a former developer, now more DBA/Data Manager guy). What's left to do, or to concentrate on, when development will be shipped to elsewhere and DBAing means Hey Joe, just keep the thingy running ... kind of work (Also looks like a good opportunitiy for a neat salary ... nooot). Move over to become a business analyst type (ouch, how boring), ... do BI, like Data Mining/Statistics ?! Who knows. Stefan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Mladen Gogala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 22. August 2003 17:49 An: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Betreff: RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in his Practical Databases when he talks about DBA being a repository of knowledge. No, the role of the DBA today is the one of a crane operator: just get the darned thing going, buddy. DBA is a mechanic that fixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of IT is no longer to be at the forefront of the organization, but to keep thins running and do what business people tell them to do. Companies are no longer doing development are leaving cooking to the cooks and software development to the big software companies. One of the reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated, liberal and hippie computer geeks and somewhat less educated old school drill sergeant type managers who want everybody to be at their desks at 7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no surf naked Dilbert T-shirts or I am a DMCA circumvention device T-shirts. Basically, what I'm noticing is sort of returning to the roots cultural movement where business management no longer wants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When cost cutting decisions are made, IT people are the 1st to go. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. IT applications are going to be as standardized as a stapler, so there is less and less need for development. Friends, we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of a second hand car salesman or a real estate agent. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -Original Message- Stephane Paquette Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That's why my post on historic tables and views seem lonely ;-) Stephane -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Well...I made the transition from development to DBA when we initially got SAP'd (1993) partly because it looked interesting, partly because I was the only one on the development staff who bothered to dig into the technical end of things and...partly because management at the time had this overly optimistic assumption that they wouldn't need programmers after they dumped all the in-house applications and dinosaur software packages. There was also the assumption that client-server systems would require fewer people to support. Hah! Through various mergers, divestments, acquistions, and so on -- neither of these assumptions have proven to be true. The panacea of packaged software may have changed things...but in my experience it has mostly been tool changes. And, OK, I guess it could be argued that my job is more system integrator than traditional DBA now...whatever the heck that is...but this has tended to be my role regardless of title I was given. ;-) Kip Bryant |There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on |canned, |off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present |standards. |That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if |you don't |have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only |need |IT staffers to monitor production. |That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in his Practical |Databases when he talks |about DBA being a repository of knowledge. No, the role of the DBA today |is the one |of a crane operator: just get the darned thing going, buddy. DBA is a |mechanic that |fixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of IT is no |longer |to be at the forefront of the organization, but to keep thins running and do |what |business people tell them to do. Companies are no longer doing development |are leaving |cooking to the cooks and software development to the big software companies. |One of the reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated, |liberal and hippie |computer geeks and somewhat less educated old school drill sergeant type |managers who want |everybody to be at their desks at 7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no surf |naked Dilbert |T-shirts or I am a DMCA circumvention device T-shirts. Basically, what I'm |noticing is |sort of returning to the roots cultural movement where business management |no longer |wants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When cost cutting decisions are |made, IT people |are the 1st to go. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody |monitoring |their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. IT |applications |are going to be as standardized as a stapler, so there is less and less need |for development. |Friends, we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of a |second |hand car salesman or a real estate agent. |-- |Mladen Gogala |Oracle DBA |-Original Message- |Stephane Paquette |Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:29 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |That's why my post on historic tables and views seem lonely ;-) |Stephane |-Original Message- |Jared Still |Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |Has anyone else noticed? |Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about |such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical |database design, and Oracle Designer |Not so much anymore. |Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking |place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not |begun to recover. |I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that |is due more to the size and nature of this place, as |well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) |Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, |migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. |Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a |good development project. Ah, to do some real |data modeling again. |Just some food for thought. |Jared |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: Jared Still | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com |San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services |- |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the |message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of |mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP |command for other information (like subscribing). |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: Stephane Paquette | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
I believe the mantra needs to be evolve and prosper, stagnate and die. I've been thinking along much the same lines. Jared Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/22/2003 09:09 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed OK, who let Chicken Little out of his room?? As someone at a location that is doing a lot of third party application buying, yes we in some ways are crane operators and mechanics. But then comes the fun of integrating the data from that new application into the remainder of the applications in place. 99% of the time these interactions, and reporting needs, are outside of the vendors scope of knowledge. SO who do you think gets the job? You guessed it, the DBA. Are we dinosaurs? Yes, if you don't open your eyes to other possibilities. I believe the mantra needs to be evolve and prosper, stagnate and die. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 11:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in his Practical Databases when he talks about DBA being a repository of knowledge. No, the role of the DBA today is the one of a crane operator: just get the darned thing going, buddy. DBA is a mechanic that fixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of IT is no longer to be at the forefront of the organization, but to keep thins running and do what business people tell them to do. Companies are no longer doing development are leaving cooking to the cooks and software development to the big software companies. One of the reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated, liberal and hippie computer geeks and somewhat less educated old school drill sergeant type managers who want everybody to be at their desks at 7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no surf naked Dilbert T-shirts or I am a DMCA circumvention device T-shirts. Basically, what I'm noticing is sort of returning to the roots cultural movement where business management no longer wants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When cost cutting decisions are made, IT people are the 1st to go. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. IT applications are going to be as standardized as a stapler, so there is less and less need for development. Friends, we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of a second hand car salesman or a real estate agent. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -Original Message- Stephane Paquette Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That's why my post on historic tables and views seem lonely ;-) Stephane -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http
RE: RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Well, I wanted to add my .2 Cents here. Custom development projects have shrunk over the past year because companies are tired of the maintenance issues associated with custom applications. More organizations are shifting their efforts towards implementing canned solutions and taking the bite, as Dick indicates, of modifying either the business or the applications to complement the opposite. Custom application development seems to be occurring only where a canned application is either not available or does not match the true requirements. Now on the downside, everyone seems to think that shifting development via an outsourced model, especially overseas, is going to same LOTS of money. I wish some of these people would read Information Week or other magazines to fully understand the increase in cost Outsourced development efforts create. I can say that we (Compuware) are seeing more outsourcing transfer to in-house projects because of quality or time to delivery issues. As a caveat, development within the US is shifting from one region to another and is dependent on tax breaks, etc. that governments offer companies to move. Food for thought: Stay liquid and flexible. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Technical Alliance Manager Compuware Corporation Direct: (313) 227-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 1:25 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L There is another problem with canned applications. The damanagement has to make a choice to either bend the business to match the application of bend the application to match the business. From my point of view, the latter is happening more than the former. Also, as a side note, I believe the list's tone has changed as companies are trying to find cheaper solutions to their database needs. Although in the end run Sql*Server and DB2 come out close to Oracle in cost, they hide most of the added stuff as either third party applications or else unmentioned extras that you'll need. Oracle just bundles it all up front making then look more expensive than the others. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:59 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mladen, There is another thing happening: companies are more and more relying on canned, off the shelf applications, in a hope to become compliant with present standards. That has dramatically cut down the number of needed developers, because if you don't have to develop your general ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you only need IT staffers to monitor production. Granted for these functions, which are rarely at the core of your business. However, by turning to canned applications for everything, firms are doing nothing that turning themselves into commodities - the road to bust for those unable to sustain a price war. And most canned applications of some breadth seem to require a degree of 'parameterization' which demands teams often bigger (and more expensive) than yesterday's in-house development teams. Interestingly, the amount of data which everybody is storing seems to outpace Moore's law by a comfortable factor. Which, if nothing else, proves that the payroll and HR software is not where the action is. They stil need DBA's because they'd better have somebody monitoring their multi-TB databases, but development is no longer necessary. Wait for 10G, which takes care of itself :-). Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Title: Message
I'm
planning on doing #4 next fall. Look out Mississippi State, here I
come!
Kevin
Toepke
-Original Message-From: Odland, Brad
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003
5:14 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject:
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
Evolve and prosper may mean leavingIT
work
Here
are some other possibilities:
1.
Open your own pub
2.
Become a carney - (Hard work but you get to party ALL THE
TIME)
3.
Enter Damagement (If you like that)
4.
Go back to school (Art, theology, history, science use your gifted brain for
something other than crappy canned software that noone gives a rat's a**
about)
5.
Sell everything and go overseas and work with an aid agency...(die poor but
rich in so many ways)
6.
Write that novel you have dreamed about(you know the one where the
DBAreveals thetruth bihind the 9/11conspiracy based on data
hidden in the archive logs found on a tape in a box in theCIA during a
systems upgrade...WAIT get your own idea..!!)
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003
2:09 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Nature of Oracle-l has
changed I
believe the mantra needs to be "evolve and prosper, stagnate and
die". I've been thinking
along much the same lines. Jared
"Goulet, Dick"
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
08/22/2003 09:09 AM
Please respond to ORACLE-L
To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:
Subject:RE: Nature of Oracle-l has
changedOK, who
let "Chicken Little" out of his room??
As someone at a location that is doing a lot of
third party application buying, yes we in some ways are crane operators and
mechanics. But then comes the fun of integrating the data from that
new application into the remainder of the applications in place. 99%
of the time these interactions, and reporting needs, are outside of the
vendors scope of knowledge. SO who do you think gets the job?
You guessed it, the DBA. Are we dinosaurs? Yes, if you
don't open your eyes to other possibilities. I believe the mantra
needs to be "evolve and prosper, stagnate and die".Dick
GouletSenior Oracle DBAOracle Certified 8i DBA-Original
Message-Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 11:49 AMTo: Multiple
recipients of list ORACLE-LThere is another thing happening:
companies are more and more relying oncanned, off the shelf
applications, in a hope to become "compliant with
presentstandards".That has dramatically cut down the number of
needed developers, because ifyou don'thave to develop your general
ledger, payroll, CRM and HR software, you onlyneed IT staffers to
monitor production. That is why I think that Jonathan Lewis is wrong in
his "PracticalDatabases" when he talksabout "DBA being a repository
of knowledge". No, the role of the DBA todayis the oneof a crane
operator: "just get the darned thing going, buddy". DBA is amechanic
thatfixes database when it's slow, and that's it. The business role of
IT is nolonger to be at the forefront of the organization, but to
keep thins running and dowhatbusiness people tell them to do.
Companies are no longer doing developmentare leavingcooking to the
cooks and software development to the big software companies.One of the
reasons is also the culture clash among very well educated,liberal and
hippiecomputer geeks and somewhat less educated "old school" drill
sergeant typemanagers who want everybody to be at their desks at
7:30, cleanly shaven, no jeans, no "surfnaked" Dilbert T-shirts or
"I am a DMCA circumvention device" T-shirts. Basically, what I'mnoticing
issort of "returning to the roots" cultural movement where business
managementno longerwants to tolerate the laid back IT culture. When
cost cutting decisions aremade, IT peopleare the 1st to go.
They stil need DBA's because they'd better have
somebodymonitoringtheir multi-TB databases, but development is no
longer necessary. ITapplicationsare going to be as standardized as a
stapler, so there is less and less needfor development.Friends,
we're dinosaurs, a dying breed. I'm considering a career of asecond
hand car salesman or a real estate agent.--Mladen
GogalaOracle DBA -Original Message-Stephane
PaquetteSent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:29 AMTo: Multiple
recipients of list ORACLE-LThat's why my
RE: Nature of Oracle-l has changed
We are in the middle of a development revolution here. It is being driven by a desire to allow greater access to the Peoplesoft databases. The Peoplesoft folks want to continue using those tools. But the folks that are responsible for the application server which will connect to Psoft want to use Web Logic or possibly .net. As we are considering J2EE environments, I've asked them to consider Jbuilder, Jdeveloper, and IBM's WebSphere stuff. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. There is a sect who wants whatever is chosen to be the sole development platform here. Ian -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 11:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Has anyone else noticed? Not so long ago, we saw quite a few more questions about such things as data modeling, application security architecture, physical database design, and Oracle Designer Not so much anymore. Do you think it's because there are so few development projects taking place? Seems like in house development died with the dot bomb and has not begun to recover. I know at my place of employment there is very little development, but that is due more to the size and nature of this place, as well as the management. ( they don't like in house development :( ) Now I spend my days with stuff like making NetBackup work with Oracle, migrating SAP all over the place and keeping things running. Not that we haven't always done those things, but I miss some not having a good development project. Ah, to do some real data modeling again. Just some food for thought. Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: MacGregor, Ian A. INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
