RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-07 Thread Richard Ji 
Maybe the thieves are running Oracle on HP and they need to
add two more CPU to their server.


-Original Message-
From:   Mogens Nørgaard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Sun 9/7/2003 4:49 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Cc: 
Subject:Re: Offshore threat
While I was still in Oracle, thieves broke into the offices of Oracle in 
Oslo, Norway, and removed two HP cpu's from the main computer there. 
They ignored all the nice laptops on the tables around them. Now, that 
is weird.

Mladen Gogala wrote:

>Two IBM mainframes stolen? Boy, the times are changing! To steal only a
>single 3090 600J,
>one would need a whole infantry division, not just two guys with a dolly. 
>I bet they'll end up running Linux and having a ton of Jared's perl scripts
>on them.
>
>--
>Mladen Gogala
>Oracle DBA 
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
>Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:14 AM
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
>http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/04/1062548967124.html
>
>A - This is social engineering at its finest.
>
>B - There is no security without PHYSICAL security
>
>C - If you don't check up on your outsourcer, then you can apparently get
>the shirt stolen off your back...
>
> 
>
>v/r
>
>Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
>Data Services Manager
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>(813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974
>
>
>
>  
>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Stephane Paquette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 3:15 PM
>>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>>Subject: RE: Offshore threat
>>
>>
>>When working at International Air Transport Association
>>(IATA), the company moved around 60 jobs from Geneva and 
>>London to Montreal because it was cheaper here.
>>
>>This is all business as usual.
>>
>>
>>
>>Stephane Paquette
>>Administrateur de bases de donnees
>>Database Administrator
>>Standard Life
>>www.standardlife.ca
>>Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>Mercadante, Thomas F
>>Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:50 PM
>>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>>
>>
>>This is all very funny and interesting.  Anybody read the
>>story in yesterday's NY times?  Mexica has a concern that 
>>their textile industry is being "stolen" by China because it 
>>is cheaper to make products there than in Mexico. Sound familiar?
>>
>>"This is the business we have chosen to be into"  Himen Roth
>>(and I know spelled his first name wrong).
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:10 PM
>>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>>
>>
>>It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng
>>lost to cheaper labor markets, Indian companies now have to 
>>compete with frighteningly efficient giants like Nike, Coca 
>>Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union Carbide  and others. Local 
>>companies are losing the market and have to reduce their 
>>workforce, driving the cost of labor further down and closing 
>>the vicious circle. What  is scary is the fact that we are an 
>>order of magnitude more efficient then the rest of the world, 
>>even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is 
>>everybody else? The only difference between a US DBA and a 
>>cleaning leady, which has also been replaced by an immigrant 
>>a long time ago, is the fact that the DBA has easier access 
>>to the DBA mailing lists. If we weren't crying foul then, 
>>there is no need to do it now. We will simply have to adjust 
>>and do something else. The first thing that comes to mind is 
>>becoming a lawyer. When I want to sue somebody, I'd like to 
>>be represented by a cutthroat yankee lawyer, not by a very 
>>polite and non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do 
>>need a killer instinct, DBAs do not. For those of us who have 
>>it, it's more of a hindrance then a useful tool. Lawyers and 
>>politicians, fortunately for Indians, will never be 
>>outsourced to India. Here is our chance.
>>
>>
>>--
>>Mladen Gogala
>>Oracle DBA
>>
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>Souto
>>Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:55 PM
>>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>>
>>
>>LOL!
>>
>>Funny how this "global

Re: Offshore threat

2003-09-07 Thread Mogens Nørgaard 
While I was still in Oracle, thieves broke into the offices of Oracle in 
Oslo, Norway, and removed two HP cpu's from the main computer there. 
They ignored all the nice laptops on the tables around them. Now, that 
is weird.

Mladen Gogala wrote:

Two IBM mainframes stolen? Boy, the times are changing! To steal only a
single 3090 600J,
one would need a whole infantry division, not just two guys with a dolly. 
I bet they'll end up running Linux and having a ton of Jared's perl scripts
on them.

--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/04/1062548967124.html

A - This is social engineering at its finest.

B - There is no security without PHYSICAL security

C - If you don't check up on your outsourcer, then you can apparently get
the shirt stolen off your back...


v/r

Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
Data Services Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974


 

-Original Message-
From: Stephane Paquette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 3:15 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Offshore threat
When working at International Air Transport Association
(IATA), the company moved around 60 jobs from Geneva and 
London to Montreal because it was cheaper here.

This is all business as usual.



Stephane Paquette
Administrateur de bases de donnees
Database Administrator
Standard Life
www.standardlife.ca
Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



-Original Message-
Mercadante, Thomas F
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
This is all very funny and interesting.  Anybody read the
story in yesterday's NY times?  Mexica has a concern that 
their textile industry is being "stolen" by China because it 
is cheaper to make products there than in Mexico. Sound familiar?

"This is the business we have chosen to be into"  Himen Roth
(and I know spelled his first name wrong).
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:10 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng
lost to cheaper labor markets, Indian companies now have to 
compete with frighteningly efficient giants like Nike, Coca 
Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union Carbide  and others. Local 
companies are losing the market and have to reduce their 
workforce, driving the cost of labor further down and closing 
the vicious circle. What  is scary is the fact that we are an 
order of magnitude more efficient then the rest of the world, 
even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is 
everybody else? The only difference between a US DBA and a 
cleaning leady, which has also been replaced by an immigrant 
a long time ago, is the fact that the DBA has easier access 
to the DBA mailing lists. If we weren't crying foul then, 
there is no need to do it now. We will simply have to adjust 
and do something else. The first thing that comes to mind is 
becoming a lawyer. When I want to sue somebody, I'd like to 
be represented by a cutthroat yankee lawyer, not by a very 
polite and non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do 
need a killer instinct, DBAs do not. For those of us who have 
it, it's more of a hindrance then a useful tool. Lawyers and 
politicians, fortunately for Indians, will never be 
outsourced to India. Here is our chance.

--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA


-Original Message-
Souto
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
LOL!

Funny how this "globalisation" bull only
works in one direction, eh?
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
   

** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian outsourcer is
willing to relocate in India. But Indian officials have 
 

told him they
   

don't hire Americans. Read about another politicized IT
 

worker in "No
   

Americans Need Apply."
 

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Nuno Souto
 INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru')
and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB 
ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed 
from).  You may also send the HELP command for other 
information (like subscribing).



Note:
This message is for the named person's use only.  It may
contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged 
i

Re: Offshore threat

2003-09-05 Thread Nuno Souto 
- Original Message - 
> 
> A - This is social engineering at its finest.
> 
> B - There is no security without PHYSICAL security
> 
> C - If you don't check up on your outsourcer, then you can apparently
> get the shirt stolen off your back...
> 
>  

what scares me is these guys KNEW which boxes to go to to get the secret info. 
IOW, they KNEW the site internally, they have a plan and it's proceeding. 
I think I'm gonna cancel the holiday, September is here...

PS: who is the IDIOT that leaves this stuff unencrypted and open to stealing?
My laptop has no secret stuff, but because I work in a military installation 
EVERYTHING in it is encrypted, it has boot manager hard passwords, XP hard passwords,
no diskette drive and God only knows what else I could cram in it.  It takes me a 
few minutes to go through all the security every morning.  And there is nothing 
wrong with that! This is what these idiots get for outsourcing to irresponsible 
outsourcers.

Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-05 Thread Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI 
Very insightful and I agree.

Note that my title is "Data Services Mgr." and in that role I do some
DBAing, need to learn a lot
More Oracle 'basic' keep it in the middle of the road stuff, but where I
make my biggest impact
And consistently win annual awards (I get coins (organizational coins --
big thing in the US military) and good ratings because I deliver data
when they (the 'lusers' who are dumb as a sack of rocks when it comes to
getting data -- as it should be) want it and how they want it.  I
provide them the data they need to 'empower' (one of their favorite
words) them in doing their jobs well -- whatever that may be.

In short, we work for and by the good graces of our respective lusers --
never lose sight of that.

v/r

Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
Data Services Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974



> -Original Message-
> From: Nuno Souto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:20 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: Re: Offshore threat
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> 
> > It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng lost to 
> > cheaper
> > labor markets, Indian companies now have to compete with 
> frighteningly
> > efficient
> > giants like Nike, Coca Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union 
> Carbide  and others.
> 
> On IT?  I thought we were talking about that?
> 
> > even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is everybody 
> > else? The
> 
> You do NOT want to know, believe me...
> 
> > non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do need a killer 
> > instinct, DBAs do
> 
> Well, one of my colleagues likes to call me the "bad cop".  
> He calls himself the "worse cop".  He reckons we do the act 
> to perfection!  ;)
> 
> On the other hand: the BAs that work with me quietly leave 
> the room when I'm in one of my "low-sugar" days.  Let's just 
> say you're not the only 
> big fella: I'm well over 200 myself and most of it is the stuff that 
> can slam a golf ball 300 yards away...  :D  
> 
> But anyways, I'm not just a DBA anymore and that's what I 
> wanted to talk about.
> 
> > Here is our chance.
> > 
> 
> Hmmm, all serious now.  It's been obvious for years that being just a 
> DBA doesn't cut it any longer.  The traditional day-to-day 
> operation of the 
> VAST majority of databases does NOT warrant full employment 
> of a DBA.  
> 
> Note:
> I am NOT saying that a super-DBA isn't needed.  I'm saying that the
> vast majority of sites does NOT need one.  Which leaves a 
> VERY small market 
> for "supers" or "masters".
> 
> Now, markets being what they are and the fact that Indians 
> are a lot more
> than others except Chinese, dictates that for the vast 
> majority of sites out 
> there a junior DBA qualification is MORE than enough. Or even 
> an outsourced one.  
> 
> (there is NOTHING demeaning to Indians or Chinese in what I 
> just said.  
> So please, spare me the usual "offended Surat or Wong" crap.  
> I work with Chinese 
> and Indians and every single one of them knows EXACTLY what I 
> think about this and 
> no one is offended by it: on the contrary.  Glad we cleared 
> that. Let's move on.)
> 
> And it has NOTHING to do with the version of Oracle or how 
> automatic it is, 
> as much as it may pain Larry and his upgrade cycles.  You can 
> make V7.3 as reliable 
> and not needing maintenance as you will 10g and there is 
> nothing Larry can do about that.
> 
> It all depends on what the system is and what the 
> requirements are.  I know of a 
> Peoplesoft HR site that has been running a 7.3 server on NT4 
> for 8 years without 
> missing a beat.  Anyone wants to discuss value for money in this case?
> 
> What I suggest to other DBAs here is based on my own 
> experience in bridging
> the gap to do other things.  
> 
> Two simple key words: spread out.  
> One strategy: capitalise on your strengths.
> 
> Don't waste too long learning the intricacies of all those X$ 
> views: you are NOT 
> Steve Adams nor do you have his motivations and conditions.  
> And your employer 
> doesn't give a royal freakin damn if X$* are performance 
> monitoring views or 
> porn monitoring views.  By all means learn about their 
> existence.  And read
> about them.  But STOP RIGHT THERE.
> 
> Besides if you are truly going to take any advantage of all 
> that jazz, you'll 
> need access to the application code itself.  So you can 
> re-design certain aspects 
>

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-05 Thread Mladen Gogala 
Two IBM mainframes stolen? Boy, the times are changing! To steal only a
single 3090 600J,
one would need a whole infantry division, not just two guys with a dolly. 
I bet they'll end up running Linux and having a ton of Jared's perl scripts
on them.

--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:14 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/04/1062548967124.html

A - This is social engineering at its finest.

B - There is no security without PHYSICAL security

C - If you don't check up on your outsourcer, then you can apparently get
the shirt stolen off your back...

 

v/r

Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
Data Services Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974



> -Original Message-
> From: Stephane Paquette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 3:15 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: Offshore threat
> 
> 
> When working at International Air Transport Association
> (IATA), the company moved around 60 jobs from Geneva and 
> London to Montreal because it was cheaper here.
> 
> This is all business as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> Stephane Paquette
> Administrateur de bases de donnees
> Database Administrator
> Standard Life
> www.standardlife.ca
> Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Mercadante, Thomas F
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:50 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> This is all very funny and interesting.  Anybody read the
> story in yesterday's NY times?  Mexica has a concern that 
> their textile industry is being "stolen" by China because it 
> is cheaper to make products there than in Mexico. Sound familiar?
> 
> "This is the business we have chosen to be into"  Himen Roth
> (and I know spelled his first name wrong).
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng
> lost to cheaper labor markets, Indian companies now have to 
> compete with frighteningly efficient giants like Nike, Coca 
> Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union Carbide  and others. Local 
> companies are losing the market and have to reduce their 
> workforce, driving the cost of labor further down and closing 
> the vicious circle. What  is scary is the fact that we are an 
> order of magnitude more efficient then the rest of the world, 
> even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is 
> everybody else? The only difference between a US DBA and a 
> cleaning leady, which has also been replaced by an immigrant 
> a long time ago, is the fact that the DBA has easier access 
> to the DBA mailing lists. If we weren't crying foul then, 
> there is no need to do it now. We will simply have to adjust 
> and do something else. The first thing that comes to mind is 
> becoming a lawyer. When I want to sue somebody, I'd like to 
> be represented by a cutthroat yankee lawyer, not by a very 
> polite and non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do 
> need a killer instinct, DBAs do not. For those of us who have 
> it, it's more of a hindrance then a useful tool. Lawyers and 
> politicians, fortunately for Indians, will never be 
> outsourced to India. Here is our chance.
> 
> 
> --
> Mladen Gogala
> Oracle DBA
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Souto
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:55 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Funny how this "globalisation" bull only
> works in one direction, eh?
> 
> Cheers
> Nuno Souto
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> 
> > ** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian outsourcer is
> > willing to relocate in India. But Indian officials have 
> told him they
> > don't hire Americans. Read about another politicized IT
> worker in "No
> > Americans Need Apply."
> 
> 
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: Nuno Souto
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru')
> and in the message BODY, in

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-05 Thread Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI 
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/04/1062548967124.html

A - This is social engineering at its finest.

B - There is no security without PHYSICAL security

C - If you don't check up on your outsourcer, then you can apparently
get the shirt stolen off your back...

 

v/r

Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC
Data Services Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(813) 827-9974  DSN 651-9974



> -Original Message-
> From: Stephane Paquette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 3:15 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: Offshore threat
> 
> 
> When working at International Air Transport Association 
> (IATA), the company moved around 60 jobs from Geneva and 
> London to Montreal because it was cheaper here.
> 
> This is all business as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> Stephane Paquette
> Administrateur de bases de donnees
> Database Administrator
> Standard Life
> www.standardlife.ca
> Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Mercadante, Thomas F
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:50 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> This is all very funny and interesting.  Anybody read the 
> story in yesterday's NY times?  Mexica has a concern that 
> their textile industry is being "stolen" by China because it 
> is cheaper to make products there than in Mexico. Sound familiar?
> 
> "This is the business we have chosen to be into"  Himen Roth 
> (and I know spelled his first name wrong).
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng 
> lost to cheaper labor markets, Indian companies now have to 
> compete with frighteningly efficient giants like Nike, Coca 
> Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union Carbide  and others. Local 
> companies are losing the market and have to reduce their 
> workforce, driving the cost of labor further down and closing 
> the vicious circle. What  is scary is the fact that we are an 
> order of magnitude more efficient then the rest of the world, 
> even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is 
> everybody else? The only difference between a US DBA and a 
> cleaning leady, which has also been replaced by an immigrant 
> a long time ago, is the fact that the DBA has easier access 
> to the DBA mailing lists. If we weren't crying foul then, 
> there is no need to do it now. We will simply have to adjust 
> and do something else. The first thing that comes to mind is 
> becoming a lawyer. When I want to sue somebody, I'd like to 
> be represented by a cutthroat yankee lawyer, not by a very 
> polite and non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do 
> need a killer instinct, DBAs do not. For those of us who have 
> it, it's more of a hindrance then a useful tool. Lawyers and 
> politicians, fortunately for Indians, will never be 
> outsourced to India. Here is our chance.
> 
> 
> --
> Mladen Gogala
> Oracle DBA
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Souto
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:55 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Funny how this "globalisation" bull only
> works in one direction, eh?
> 
> Cheers
> Nuno Souto
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> 
> > ** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian outsourcer is 
> > willing to relocate in India. But Indian officials have 
> told him they 
> > don't hire Americans. Read about another politicized IT 
> worker in "No 
> > Americans Need Apply."
> 
> 
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: Nuno Souto
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') 
> and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB 
> ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed 
> from).  You may also send the HELP command for other 
> information (like subscribing).
> 
> 
> 
> Note:
> This message is for the named person's use only.  It may 
> contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged 
> information.  No confidentiality or privilege is waived or 
> los

Re: Offshore threat

2003-09-05 Thread Nuno Souto 
- Original Message -


> forever. Now it's time to wake up and see that IT is becoming a job like
> another where you most hold to your job instead of going to job interview
> just for fun.
>

A lot of people don't believe this when I say it, but when I started in
IT in 1975 what we got now was quite normal.  Minus the foreign outsourcing phenomena.
We had service bureaus then, but they stayed in the same country.  Mostly.

To me, it's all back to normal.  Except I now earn a bucket load more.
Am I truly better off?  Nope: I have two kids, two dogs and a fat cat
to support...

¦Þ

Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-05 Thread Stephane Paquette 
By business as usual, I meant that executives always try to save money and
will always do.

Now, IT is targeted. And pepople in IT find that very difficult because the
pay has been very good since 5-7 years and most people thought it would last
forever. Now it's time to wake up and see that IT is becoming a job like
another where you most hold to your job instead of going to job interview
just for fun.

Since Canada is always behind, that offshore thing will start kicking in a
few months here :-(


Stephane

-Original Message-
Nuno Souto
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:35 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Well, you could find a job in Canada, no?
Can you find one in India too? I don't think so.
So it's not business as usual.
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
> When working at International Air Transport Association (IATA), the
company
> moved around 60 jobs from Geneva and London to Montreal because it was
> cheaper here.
>
> This is all business as usual.
>


--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Stephane Paquette
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Re: Offshore threat

2003-09-05 Thread Nuno Souto 
Well, you could find a job in Canada, no?
Can you find one in India too? I don't think so.
So it's not business as usual.
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
> When working at International Air Transport Association (IATA), the company
> moved around 60 jobs from Geneva and London to Montreal because it was
> cheaper here.
> 
> This is all business as usual.
> 


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Re: Offshore threat

2003-09-05 Thread Nuno Souto 
- Original Message - 


> It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng lost to cheaper 
> labor markets, Indian companies now have to compete with frighteningly
> efficient
> giants like Nike, Coca Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union Carbide  and others.

On IT?  I thought we were talking about that?

> even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is everybody else? The

You do NOT want to know, believe me...

> non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do need a killer instinct, DBAs
> do

Well, one of my colleagues likes to call me the "bad cop".  He calls himself
the "worse cop".  He reckons we do the act to perfection!  ;)

On the other hand: the BAs that work with me quietly leave the room
when I'm in one of my "low-sugar" days.  Let's just say you're not the only 
big fella: I'm well over 200 myself and most of it is the stuff that 
can slam a golf ball 300 yards away...  :D  

But anyways, I'm not just a DBA anymore and that's what I wanted to talk about.

> Here is our chance. 
> 

Hmmm, all serious now.  It's been obvious for years that being just a 
DBA doesn't cut it any longer.  The traditional day-to-day operation of the 
VAST majority of databases does NOT warrant full employment of a DBA.  

Note:
I am NOT saying that a super-DBA isn't needed.  I'm saying that the
vast majority of sites does NOT need one.  Which leaves a VERY small market 
for "supers" or "masters".

Now, markets being what they are and the fact that Indians are a lot more
than others except Chinese, dictates that for the vast majority of sites out 
there a junior DBA qualification is MORE than enough. Or even an outsourced one.  

(there is NOTHING demeaning to Indians or Chinese in what I just said.  
So please, spare me the usual "offended Surat or Wong" crap.  I work with Chinese 
and Indians and every single one of them knows EXACTLY what I think about this and 
no one is offended by it: on the contrary.  Glad we cleared that. Let's move on.)

And it has NOTHING to do with the version of Oracle or how automatic it is, 
as much as it may pain Larry and his upgrade cycles.  You can make V7.3 as reliable 
and not needing maintenance as you will 10g and there is nothing Larry can do about 
that.

It all depends on what the system is and what the requirements are.  I know of a 
Peoplesoft HR site that has been running a 7.3 server on NT4 for 8 years without 
missing a beat.  Anyone wants to discuss value for money in this case?

What I suggest to other DBAs here is based on my own experience in bridging
the gap to do other things.  

Two simple key words: spread out.  
One strategy: capitalise on your strengths.

Don't waste too long learning the intricacies of all those X$ views: you are NOT 
Steve Adams nor do you have his motivations and conditions.  And your employer 
doesn't give a royal freakin damn if X$* are performance monitoring views or 
porn monitoring views.  By all means learn about their existence.  And read
about them.  But STOP RIGHT THERE.

Besides if you are truly going to take any advantage of all that jazz, you'll 
need access to the application code itself.  So you can re-design certain aspects 
and make them behave properly.  

Don't fool yourself: just exactly how many times have you succeeded in doing that 
with SAP OR JDE OR Peoplesoft? Or even that small third party J2EE crap that eats 
up CPU at a rate that makes Microsoft blush?  See what I mean?  It helps if your 
employer is a software house, but they are a MINORITY.  Forget it.

Of course we all like to argue and talk here about details of obscure waits, setting
event 1009812398901283948 forever on level 8127348 and checking the effect of 
that on X$MXYZPTLK.  However, that has its place and time.

The problem is: if you do that on your company's place and time and you can't come 
up at the end of it with a tangible and LARGE improvement in profitability (stuff 
the performance, profit is where it's at!), you are toast in the eyes of your boss.  
And with good reason: you are an expensive overhead and a pretentious git who thinks 
he's a Steve Adams.  

Sorry to be brutal.  I warned I AM nasty, so there!  :D

Take it from someone who was a "DBA-only" 7 years ago, folks: change.  
Now.

Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-04 Thread Thater, William 
Mladen Gogala  scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:

> Well, being 6'4", 270 LBS, capable of running 5 miles and doing 20
> pull ups, I wonder why do people get upset if I become truculent or
> belligerent. BTW, your nickname is "Shrek". Mine is "Yogi". Both
> nicknames suggest certain size
> and physical build. Am I right?

and mine denotes an attitude as well.;-)  all attributes that stand us well
in developer conferences.;-)

--
Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA  BAARF Party member #25
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine
are still greater. - Albert Einstein
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Thater, William
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-04 Thread Mladen Gogala 
Well, being 6'4", 270 LBS, capable of running 5 miles and doing 20 pull ups,
I wonder why do people get upset if I become truculent or belligerent. BTW,
your nickname is "Shrek". Mine is "Yogi". Both nicknames suggest certain
size 
and physical build. Am I right?

--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
Thater, William
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:44 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Mladen Gogala  scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:

> non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do need a killer 
> instinct, DBAs do not. For those of us who have it, it's more of a 
> hindrance then a useful tool.

you, sir, have obviously not been a DBA in some of the companies i've worked
at.;-)

--
Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA  BAARF Party member #25
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It's no coincidence that in no known language does the phrase "As pretty as
an airport" appear. - Douglas Adams
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Thater, William
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the
message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of
mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may also send the HELP
command for other information (like subscribing).



Note:
This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain confidential, 
proprietary or legally privileged information.  No confidentiality or privilege is 
waived or lost by any mistransmission.  If you receive this message in error, please 
immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies 
of it and notify the sender.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, 
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended 
recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to 
monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where 
the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the 
views of any such entity.

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Mladen Gogala
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-04 Thread Stephane Paquette 
When working at International Air Transport Association (IATA), the company
moved around 60 jobs from Geneva and London to Montreal because it was
cheaper here.

This is all business as usual.



Stephane Paquette
Administrateur de bases de donnees
Database Administrator
Standard Life
www.standardlife.ca
Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 



-Original Message-
Mercadante, Thomas F
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This is all very funny and interesting.  Anybody read the story in
yesterday's NY times?  Mexica has a concern that their textile industry is
being "stolen" by China because it is cheaper to make products there than in
Mexico.
Sound familiar?

"This is the business we have chosen to be into"  Himen Roth (and I know
spelled his first name wrong).


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:10 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng lost to cheaper
labor markets, Indian companies now have to compete with frighteningly
efficient
giants like Nike, Coca Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union Carbide  and others.
Local
companies are losing the market and have to reduce their workforce, driving
the
cost of labor further down and closing the vicious circle. What  is scary is
the
fact that we are an order of magnitude more efficient then the rest of the
world,
even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is everybody else? The
only
difference between a US DBA and a cleaning leady, which has also been
replaced by
an immigrant a long time ago, is the fact that the DBA has easier access to
the
DBA mailing lists. If we weren't crying foul then, there is no need to do it
now.
We will simply have to adjust and do something else. The first thing that
comes
to mind is becoming a lawyer. When I want to sue somebody,
I'd like to be represented by a cutthroat yankee lawyer, not by a very
polite and
non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do need a killer instinct, DBAs
do
not. For those of us who have it, it's more of a hindrance then a useful
tool.
Lawyers and politicians, fortunately for Indians, will never be outsourced
to India.
Here is our chance.


--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA



-Original Message-
Souto
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


LOL!

Funny how this "globalisation" bull only
works in one direction, eh?

Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -

> ** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian outsourcer is
> willing to relocate in India. But Indian officials have told him they
> don't hire Americans. Read about another politicized IT worker in "No
> Americans Need Apply."


--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the
message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of
mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may also send the HELP
command for other information (like subscribing).



Note:
This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information.  No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission.  If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the
sender.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute,
print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended
recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to
state them to be the views of any such entity.

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Mladen Gogala
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: h

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-04 Thread Mercadante, Thomas F 
This is all very funny and interesting.  Anybody read the story in
yesterday's NY times?  Mexica has a concern that their textile industry is
being "stolen" by China because it is cheaper to make products there than in
Mexico.
Sound familiar?

"This is the business we have chosen to be into"  Himen Roth (and I know
spelled his first name wrong).


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:10 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng lost to cheaper 
labor markets, Indian companies now have to compete with frighteningly
efficient
giants like Nike, Coca Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union Carbide  and others.
Local 
companies are losing the market and have to reduce their workforce, driving
the
cost of labor further down and closing the vicious circle. What  is scary is
the 
fact that we are an order of magnitude more efficient then the rest of the
world, 
even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is everybody else? The
only 
difference between a US DBA and a cleaning leady, which has also been
replaced by 
an immigrant a long time ago, is the fact that the DBA has easier access to
the 
DBA mailing lists. If we weren't crying foul then, there is no need to do it
now. 
We will simply have to adjust and do something else. The first thing that
comes 
to mind is becoming a lawyer. When I want to sue somebody,
I'd like to be represented by a cutthroat yankee lawyer, not by a very
polite and
non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do need a killer instinct, DBAs
do
not. For those of us who have it, it's more of a hindrance then a useful
tool.
Lawyers and politicians, fortunately for Indians, will never be outsourced
to India.
Here is our chance. 


--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
Souto
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


LOL!

Funny how this "globalisation" bull only
works in one direction, eh?

Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 

> ** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian outsourcer is 
> willing to relocate in India. But Indian officials have told him they 
> don't hire Americans. Read about another politicized IT worker in "No 
> Americans Need Apply."


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the
message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of
mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may also send the HELP
command for other information (like subscribing).



Note:
This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain
confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information.  No
confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission.  If
you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the
sender.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute,
print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended
recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the
right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to
state them to be the views of any such entity.

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Mladen Gogala
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Mercadante, Thomas F
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-04 Thread Thater, William 
Mladen Gogala  scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:

> non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do need a killer
> instinct, DBAs do
> not. For those of us who have it, it's more of a hindrance then a
> useful tool.

you, sir, have obviously not been a DBA in some of the companies i've worked
at.;-)

--
Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA  BAARF Party member #25
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It's no coincidence that in no known language does the phrase "As pretty as
an airport" appear. - Douglas Adams
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Thater, William
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-04 Thread Goulet, Dick 
Globalization is one of those damned buzzwords that certain politicians and CEO's like 
to use to mean that everything will be equal between countries.  In reality there is 
no such truth as we've seen twice in the past few years.  Now maybe if we had a global 
monetary system, like the EURO, things would get equal.  But as they stand today, 
change the value of your currency to get or loose jobs.  In the US we believe in a 
higher currency value so that those who have the money can keep it.  I believe France 
went through a similar set of events in the late 1700's called the French Revolution 
where the middle class got so upset with the nobility that open terror broke out.  
Hopefully change here will come sooner, like 2004, and much more peacefully.  I 
believe we call it Election Day.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


LOL!

Funny how this "globalisation" bull only
works in one direction, eh?

Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 

> ** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian
> outsourcer is willing to relocate in India. But Indian
> officials have told him they don't hire Americans. Read
> about another politicized IT worker in "No Americans Need
> Apply."


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Goulet, Dick
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: Offshore threat

2003-09-04 Thread Mladen Gogala 
It doesn't work in only one direction. While jobs are bieng lost to cheaper 
labor markets, Indian companies now have to compete with frighteningly
efficient
giants like Nike, Coca Cola, IBM, Microsoft, GM, Union Carbide  and others.
Local 
companies are losing the market and have to reduce their workforce, driving
the
cost of labor further down and closing the vicious circle. What  is scary is
the 
fact that we are an order of magnitude more efficient then the rest of the
world, 
even with all our PHB's and damagement. How messed up is everybody else? The
only 
difference between a US DBA and a cleaning leady, which has also been
replaced by 
an immigrant a long time ago, is the fact that the DBA has easier access to
the 
DBA mailing lists. If we weren't crying foul then, there is no need to do it
now. 
We will simply have to adjust and do something else. The first thing that
comes 
to mind is becoming a lawyer. When I want to sue somebody,
I'd like to be represented by a cutthroat yankee lawyer, not by a very
polite and
non-aggressive gentleman from India. Lawyers do need a killer instinct, DBAs
do
not. For those of us who have it, it's more of a hindrance then a useful
tool.
Lawyers and politicians, fortunately for Indians, will never be outsourced
to India.
Here is our chance. 


--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA 



-Original Message-
Souto
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


LOL!

Funny how this "globalisation" bull only
works in one direction, eh?

Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 

> ** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian outsourcer is 
> willing to relocate in India. But Indian officials have told him they 
> don't hire Americans. Read about another politicized IT worker in "No 
> Americans Need Apply."


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the
message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of
mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may also send the HELP
command for other information (like subscribing).



Note:
This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain confidential, 
proprietary or legally privileged information.  No confidentiality or privilege is 
waived or lost by any mistransmission.  If you receive this message in error, please 
immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies 
of it and notify the sender.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, 
distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended 
recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to 
monitor all e-mail communications through its networks.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where 
the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the 
views of any such entity.

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Mladen Gogala
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Re: Offshore threat

2003-09-04 Thread Nuno Souto 
LOL!

Funny how this "globalisation" bull only
works in one direction, eh?

Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 

> ** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian
> outsourcer is willing to relocate in India. But Indian
> officials have told him they don't hire Americans. Read
> about another politicized IT worker in "No Americans Need
> Apply."


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Nuno Souto
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Re: Offshore threat

2003-09-03 Thread rgaffuri 
i find it difficult to believe. manufacturing jobs have been going over seas for 
years. Michael Jordan shoes are made in sweat shops in Asia. People are less likely to 
feel sorry for relatively high payed DBAs than they are for poorer manufacturers and 
what good did it do them? Their unions didnt save them.

people in India and other countries are just as good as the people in the US. Alot of 
stuff can be done offshore. You can pay someone in another country a pitance compared 
to what you pay Americans. Keep in mind that they may pay people in Asian countries 
25% of what they pay americans the exchange rate is so huge its probably like 10% when 
you factor in total cost. 

people most likely to be hurt by this are immigrants to the US. Since US citizens 
without criminal records can always do government work that requires citizenship. 
Demand for people with clearances is 'insane' in the DC area. Salaries can be 50% 
higher or more. The market for US citizens who are eligible for clearances has picked 
up quite a bit(no criminal record, bad debts, or long stays outside the US). However, 
that is less than 20% of the market. 
> 
> From: DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2003/09/03 Wed AM 09:44:27 EDT
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Offshore threat
> 
> All - Recently several shared their experiences with offshore development.
> This month's CIO magazine is devoted to issues surrounding offshore. 
> 
> Dennis Williams
> DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 1. The Politics: Backlash
> As a growing number of IT jobs move overseas, some CIOs and
> economists prophesy a political storm against offshore
> outsourcing and a negative perception of those companies
> that practice it.
> http://www.cio.com/archive/090103/backlash.html
> 
> ** Don't miss the story's sidebar, "The Visa War," about the
> controversial policies surrounding L-1 and H-1B visas.
> http://www.cio.com/archive/090103/backlash_sidebar_1.html
> 
> 2. The People: The Radicalization of Mike Emmons
> How one laid-off IT worker became a guerrilla campaigner
> against offshore outsourcing. "They can't just give away all
> these jobs and expect the country to survive," he says.
> http://www.cio.com/archive/090103/people.html
> 
> ** Another programmer who lost his job to an Indian
> outsourcer is willing to relocate in India. But Indian
> officials have told him they don't hire Americans. Read
> about another politicized IT worker in "No Americans Need
> Apply."
> http://www.cio.com/archive/090103/people_sidebar_1.html
> 
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> 

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).