RE: RE: Career Advice
I think so. Most of our Web apps are written in Java, _javascript_, and Perl. Some minor web stuff is generated by PL/SQL. Viktor DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Viktor, Ryan - Is what you are experiencing the result of companies movingto open-systems Web-based architectures?Dennis WilliamsDBALifetouch, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message-Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:34 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LI agree with Ryan. Pure Oracle jobs aren't hot as they used to be. We aregoing through this right now. They are planning to bring in a bunch of newdevelopers and splitting a few DBA's into dev. groups, which means we'llbecome more like software engineers (who can also do DBA stuff). There willbe only one Prod. DBA for a zillion systems. They're driving in the direction of bringing in more cross-trained people.They want all-aroind people who know Perl, Java, Oracle etc. The motto hasbeen: "If you get hit by a bus,! he/she can do it". The more you know, thebetter. Cross-training all the way. It's like that all-in-onefax/printer/copier thing. And at the same time, the paycheck isn't as it had been either. Viktor[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:my biggest concern is the model for development has been changed. The modelnow is do most development with software engineers and have only a smallnumber of database people. this means less pure oracle jobs. > > From: DENNIS WILLIAMS > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 02:59:26 EST> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice> > Ryan - Excellent points. I well know the feeling of being tied to Oracle's> future. As to Oracle pricing itself out of the market, I would like tomake> three points:> - Pricing is one of the quickest things a vendor can change once it> becomes convinced this is hurting it. On the ot! her hand, I've seensoftware> vendors that stopped investing in new development. They aren't in business> anymore! because you can't quickly change that decision.> - Oracle being perceived as high priced tends to increase our salaries. A> company spends a lot of money on Oracle, so they want it used to good> advantage. The salary surveys I've seen show MS SQL Server DBA with lower> salaries on the average.> - Has anyone seen salary survey results for MySQL or PostgreSQL? The> database is free, so how much should a company spend on a DBA?> > Dennis Williams> DBA> Lifetouch, Inc.> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message-> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L> > > your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely lovePascal> programming, but I dont recommend stu! dying it. > > Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far> more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far,far,> far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there> has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past youwould> hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They> would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs.> > These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net> experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go?I> dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not> know. > > The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific> skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our> skills become far less valued. Employees to! day want super specialized> skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont behot> forever and i! ts very hard to switch since people want experience in the> specific skillset before hiring you. > > > > From: "Thater, William" > > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > Subject: RE: Career Advice> > > > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:> > > > > Saira> > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to> > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you> > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself.> > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its> > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions:> > &g! t; > > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a> > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books> > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study?> > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort f
RE: RE: Career Advice
the last two projects I have been on we are using client server with .Net. Tons of .net people, verify few database people. oracle is pushing jdeveloper hard. You need skilled java people to use that. > > From: DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:44:25 EST > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice > > Viktor, Ryan - Is what you are experiencing the result of companies moving > to open-systems Web-based architectures? > > > > Dennis Williams > DBA > Lifetouch, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:34 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > I agree with Ryan. Pure Oracle jobs aren't hot as they used to be. We are > going through this right now. They are planning to bring in a bunch of new > developers and splitting a few DBA's into dev. groups, which means we'll > become more like software engineers (who can also do DBA stuff). There will > be only one Prod. DBA for a zillion systems. > > They're driving in the direction of bringing in more cross-trained people. > They want all-aroind people who know Perl, Java, Oracle etc. The motto has > been: "If you get hit by a bus, he/she can do it". The more you know, the > better. Cross-training all the way. It's like that all-in-one > fax/printer/copier thing. > > And at the same time, the paycheck isn't as it had been either. > > > Viktor > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > my biggest concern is the model for development has been changed. The model > now is do most development with software engineers and have only a small > number of database people. this means less pure oracle jobs. > > > > From: DENNIS WILLIAMS > > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 02:59:26 EST > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice > > > > Ryan - Excellent points. I well know the feeling of being tied to Oracle's > > future. As to Oracle pricing itself out of the market, I would like to > make > > three points: > > - Pricing is one of the quickest things a vendor can change once it > > becomes convinced this is hurting it. On the other hand, I've seen > software > > vendors that stopped investing in new development. They aren't in business > > anymore! because you can't quickly change that decision. > > - Oracle being perceived as high priced tends to increase our salaries. A > > company spends a lot of money on Oracle, so they want it used to good > > advantage. The salary surveys I've seen show MS SQL Server DBA with lower > > salaries on the average. > > - Has anyone seen salary survey results for MySQL or PostgreSQL? The > > database is free, so how much should a company spend on a DBA? > > > > Dennis Williams > > DBA > > Lifetouch, Inc. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -Original Message- > > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > > > your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love > Pascal > > programming, but I dont recommend studying it. > > > > Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far > > more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, > far, > > far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there > > has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you > would > > hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They > > would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs. > > > > These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net > > experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? > I > > dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not > > know. > > > > The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific > > skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our > > skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized > > skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be > hot > > forever and i! ts very hard to switch since people want experience in the > > specific skillset before hiring you. > > > > > > From: "Thater, William" > > > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > Subject: RE:
RE: RE: Career Advice
Viktor, Ryan - Is what you are experiencing the result of companies moving to open-systems Web-based architectures? Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I agree with Ryan. Pure Oracle jobs aren't hot as they used to be. We are going through this right now. They are planning to bring in a bunch of new developers and splitting a few DBA's into dev. groups, which means we'll become more like software engineers (who can also do DBA stuff). There will be only one Prod. DBA for a zillion systems. They're driving in the direction of bringing in more cross-trained people. They want all-aroind people who know Perl, Java, Oracle etc. The motto has been: "If you get hit by a bus, he/she can do it". The more you know, the better. Cross-training all the way. It's like that all-in-one fax/printer/copier thing. And at the same time, the paycheck isn't as it had been either. Viktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: my biggest concern is the model for development has been changed. The model now is do most development with software engineers and have only a small number of database people. this means less pure oracle jobs. > > From: DENNIS WILLIAMS > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 02:59:26 EST > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice > > Ryan - Excellent points. I well know the feeling of being tied to Oracle's > future. As to Oracle pricing itself out of the market, I would like to make > three points: > - Pricing is one of the quickest things a vendor can change once it > becomes convinced this is hurting it. On the other hand, I've seen software > vendors that stopped investing in new development. They aren't in business > anymore! because you can't quickly change that decision. > - Oracle being perceived as high priced tends to increase our salaries. A > company spends a lot of money on Oracle, so they want it used to good > advantage. The salary surveys I've seen show MS SQL Server DBA with lower > salaries on the average. > - Has anyone seen salary survey results for MySQL or PostgreSQL? The > database is free, so how much should a company spend on a DBA? > > Dennis Williams > DBA > Lifetouch, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love Pascal > programming, but I dont recommend studying it. > > Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far > more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, far, > far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there > has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you would > hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They > would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs. > > These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net > experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? I > dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not > know. > > The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific > skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our > skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized > skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be hot > forever and i! ts very hard to switch since people want experience in the > specific skillset before hiring you. > > > > From: "Thater, William" > > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > Subject: RE: Career Advice > > > > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: > > > > > Saira > > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to > > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you > > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself. > > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its > > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions: > > > > > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a > > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books > > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study? > > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort for work experience, is > > > this an area where there are few pe
RE: RE: Career Advice
I agree with Ryan. Pure Oracle jobs aren't hot as they used to be. We are going through this right now. They are planning to bring in a bunch of new developers and splitting a few DBA's into dev. groups, which means we'll become more like software engineers (who can also do DBA stuff). There will be only one Prod. DBA for a zillion systems. They're driving in the direction of bringing in more cross-trained people. They want all-aroind people who know Perl, Java, Oracle etc. The motto has been: "If you get hit by a bus, he/she can do it". The more you know, the better. Cross-training all the way. It's like that all-in-one fax/printer/copier thing. And at the same time, the paycheck isn't as it had been either. Viktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: my biggest concern is the model for development has been changed. The model now is do most development with software engineers and have only a small number of database people. this means less pure oracle jobs. > > From: DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 02:59:26 EST> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice> > Ryan - Excellent points. I well know the feeling of being tied to Oracle's> future. As to Oracle pricing itself out of the market, I would like to make> three points:> - Pricing is one of the quickest things a vendor can change once it> becomes convinced this is hurting it. On the other hand, I've seen software> vendors that stopped investing in new development. They aren't in business> anymore! because you can't quickly change that decision.> - Oracle being perceived as high priced tends to increase our salaries. A> company spends a lot of money on Oracle, so they want it used to good> advantage. The salary surveys I've seen show MS SQL Server DBA with lower> salaries on the average.> - Has anyone seen salary survey results for MySQL or PostgreSQL? The> database is free, so how much should a company spend on a DBA?> > Dennis Williams> DBA> Lifetouch, Inc.> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message-> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L> > > your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love Pascal> programming, but I dont recommend studying it. > > Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far> more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, far,> far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there> has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you would> hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They> would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs.> > These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net> experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? I> dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not> know. > > The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific> skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our> skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized> skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be hot> forever and i! ts very hard to switch since people want experience in the> specific skillset before hiring you. > > > > From: "Thater, William" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > Subject: RE: Career Advice> > > > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:> > > > > Saira> > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to> > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you> > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself.> > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its> > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions:> > > > > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a> > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books> > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study?> > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort for work experience, is> > > this an area where there are few people with real work experience?> > > 3. Are there credentials that can be earned?> > > > i'd like to add one more...> > 4. is this something where getting it right will still give you a charge> > after doing it for 10 year
RE: RE: Career Advice
I agree with Ryan. Pure Oracle jobs aren't hot as they used to be. We are going through this right now. They are planning to bring in a bunch of new developers and splitting a few DBA's into dev. groups, which means we'll become more like software engineers (who can also do DBA stuff). There will be only one Prod. DBA for a zillion systems. They're driving in the direction of bringing in more cross-trained people. They want all-aroind people who know Perl, Java, Oracle etc. The motto has been: "If you get hit by a bus, he/she can do it". The more you know, the better. Cross-training all the way. It's like that all-in-one fax/printer/copier thing. And at the same time, the paycheck isn't as it had been either. Viktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: my biggest concern is the model for development has been changed. The model now is do most development with software engineers and have only a small number of database people. this means less pure oracle jobs. > > From: DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 02:59:26 EST> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice> > Ryan - Excellent points. I well know the feeling of being tied to Oracle's> future. As to Oracle pricing itself out of the market, I would like to make> three points:> - Pricing is one of the quickest things a vendor can change once it> becomes convinced this is hurting it. On the other hand, I've seen software> vendors that stopped investing in new development. They aren't in business> anymore! because you can't quickly change that decision.> - Oracle being perceived as high priced tends to increase our salaries. A> company spends a lot of money on Oracle, so they want it used to good> advantage. The salary surveys I've seen show MS SQL Server DBA with lower> salaries on the average.> - Has anyone seen salary survey results for MySQL or PostgreSQL? The> database is free, so how much should a company spend on a DBA?> > Dennis Williams> DBA> Lifetouch, Inc.> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message-> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L> > > your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love Pascal> programming, but I dont recommend studying it. > > Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far> more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, far,> far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there> has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you would> hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They> would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs.> > These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net> experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? I> dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not> know. > > The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific> skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our> skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized> skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be hot> forever and i! ts very hard to switch since people want experience in the> specific skillset before hiring you. > > > > From: "Thater, William" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > Subject: RE: Career Advice> > > > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:> > > > > Saira> > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to> > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you> > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself.> > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its> > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions:> > > > > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a> > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books> > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study?> > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort for work experience, is> > > this an area where there are few people with real work experience?> > > 3. Are there credentials that can be earned?> > > > i'd like to add one more...> > 4. is this something where getting it right will still give you a charge> > after doing it for 10 year
RE: RE: Career Advice
Ryan -- I agree with a lot of what you said, but there are points that I really must disagree on. Firstly, you should *always* study what you love, but know that there are varying degrees of applicability to your chosen field, and certain areas will always be more lucrative than others. Furthermore, as you alluded to, the most lucrative technical areas are constantly in a state of flux. Where VMS was more lucrative than Unix in the mid-80s, the two switched positions in the mid-90s, and VMS is, quite unfortunately, largely dead now. The best thing one can do with a technical career, as you and others have said, is to diversify; but, when one adds breadth, one often sacrifices depth. If, for example, you choose to diversify and become a SunOS System Administrator or Powerbuilder programmer in addition to being an Oracle DBA, as time goes on, you will generally wind up giving one or both short shrift or sacrificing your free time in order to stay on top of both. The more additional responsibilities you add, the less depth you tend to keep. While you lower your exposure to vulnerability due to changes in the technical world or the caprices of the corporate world, you may also lower your overall value in both. Of course, you can market it that you have a bigger picture view of things and steer yourself career towards management; but, again, the higher the bird's eye view you have, the further you tend to be from the keyboard, and if the keyboard is what you love, that's what you need to keep doing. Now that I've been in the field for 25+ years, the best career advice I can give is to stay on top of current trends and be willing to gain competencies as various technologies wax and ditch areas - even of strength - as they wane. The other piece of advice I can give is that hot technology trends have a fixed shelf-life before new technologies replace them; try to stay with products that continue to evolve, or, if you are change-averse, stick with technologies that change very slowly but have proven their staying power (IBM, CICS, Unix). Finally, let me share one of the philosophical cornerstones of my life. Your life is delimited by two points in time: your moment of birth and your moment of death; you can do with the time in between largely what you will, and it is your use of time that defines you. Time is only currency with intrinsic value. If you wind up hating what you do for a living, you will wind up having wasted your life. HTH, Bambi. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love Pascal programming, but I dont recommend studying it. Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, far, far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you would hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs. These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? I dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not know. The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be hot forever and its very hard to switch since people want experience in the specific skillset before hiring you. > > From: "Thater, William" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: Career Advice > > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: > > > Saira > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself. > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions: > > > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study? > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort for work experience, is > > this an area where there are few people with real work experience? > > 3. Are there credentials that can be earned? > > i'd like to add one more... > 4. is this something where getting it right will still give you a charge > after doing it for 10 years or more? > > [and yes DBA and programming still do for m
RE: RE: Career Advice
my biggest concern is the model for development has been changed. The model now is do most development with software engineers and have only a small number of database people. this means less pure oracle jobs. > > From: DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 02:59:26 EST > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice > > Ryan - Excellent points. I well know the feeling of being tied to Oracle's > future. As to Oracle pricing itself out of the market, I would like to make > three points: >- Pricing is one of the quickest things a vendor can change once it > becomes convinced this is hurting it. On the other hand, I've seen software > vendors that stopped investing in new development. They aren't in business > anymore because you can't quickly change that decision. >- Oracle being perceived as high priced tends to increase our salaries. A > company spends a lot of money on Oracle, so they want it used to good > advantage. The salary surveys I've seen show MS SQL Server DBA with lower > salaries on the average. >- Has anyone seen salary survey results for MySQL or PostgreSQL? The > database is free, so how much should a company spend on a DBA? > > Dennis Williams > DBA > Lifetouch, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love Pascal > programming, but I dont recommend studying it. > > Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far > more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, far, > far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there > has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you would > hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They > would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs. > > These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net > experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? I > dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not > know. > > The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific > skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our > skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized > skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be hot > forever and its very hard to switch since people want experience in the > specific skillset before hiring you. > > > > From: "Thater, William" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: RE: Career Advice > > > > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: > > > > > Saira > > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to > > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you > > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself. > > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its > > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions: > > > > > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a > > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books > > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study? > > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort for work experience, is > > > this an area where there are few people with real work experience? > > > 3. Are there credentials that can be earned? > > > > i'd like to add one more... > > 4. is this something where getting it right will still give you a charge > > after doing it for 10 years or more? > > > > [and yes DBA and programming still do for me. but i'm finding the chances > > of being allowed to do it right are becoming few and far between.] > > > > -- > > Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA > > "I'm going to work my ticket if I can..." -- Gilwell song > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: Thater, William > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
RE: RE: Career Advice
Ryan - Excellent points. I well know the feeling of being tied to Oracle's future. As to Oracle pricing itself out of the market, I would like to make three points: - Pricing is one of the quickest things a vendor can change once it becomes convinced this is hurting it. On the other hand, I've seen software vendors that stopped investing in new development. They aren't in business anymore because you can't quickly change that decision. - Oracle being perceived as high priced tends to increase our salaries. A company spends a lot of money on Oracle, so they want it used to good advantage. The salary surveys I've seen show MS SQL Server DBA with lower salaries on the average. - Has anyone seen salary survey results for MySQL or PostgreSQL? The database is free, so how much should a company spend on a DBA? Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love Pascal programming, but I dont recommend studying it. Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, far, far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you would hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs. These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? I dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not know. The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be hot forever and its very hard to switch since people want experience in the specific skillset before hiring you. > > From: "Thater, William" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: Career Advice > > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: > > > Saira > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself. > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions: > > > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study? > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort for work experience, is > > this an area where there are few people with real work experience? > > 3. Are there credentials that can be earned? > > i'd like to add one more... > 4. is this something where getting it right will still give you a charge > after doing it for 10 years or more? > > [and yes DBA and programming still do for me. but i'm finding the chances > of being allowed to do it right are becoming few and far between.] > > -- > Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA > "I'm going to work my ticket if I can..." -- Gilwell song > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Thater, William > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing l
Re: RE: Career Advice
your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love Pascal programming, but I dont recommend studying it. Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, far, far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you would hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs. These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? I dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not know. The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be hot forever and its very hard to switch since people want experience in the specific skillset before hiring you. > > From: "Thater, William" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: Career Advice > > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: > > > Saira > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself. > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions: > > > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study? > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort for work experience, is > > this an area where there are few people with real work experience? > > 3. Are there credentials that can be earned? > > i'd like to add one more... > 4. is this something where getting it right will still give you a charge > after doing it for 10 years or more? > > [and yes DBA and programming still do for me. but i'm finding the chances > of being allowed to do it right are becoming few and far between.] > > -- > Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA > "I'm going to work my ticket if I can..." -- Gilwell song > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Thater, William > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Re: Career Advice
learn java and object oriented programming. go to sun.com and start reading the java docs. go to www.bruceeckel.com and read his java book. do a search on any job sites. a ton more work for java than oracle. people who can do both are in demand. > > From: Mladen Gogala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2003/12/17 Wed PM 01:49:25 EST > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Career Advice > > Have you ever considered a career in country music? Try getting "Stand By your man" > just right and the rest will come. You have to learn both kinds of music, country > and western. May Jake and Elwood be with you. > > On 12/17/2003 12:44:28 PM, Saira Somani-Mendelin wrote: > > As an applications analyst/junior dba, I feel I need to learn more but > > I'm not sure of the direction I should take, so I'm asking for advice. > > > > Should I become interested in Oracle Apps? Or should I learn another > > suite like SAP or Siebel or PeopleSoft? The difficulty is that my > > company does not use any of these. We use a smaller package by Tecsys > > called Elite and they don't have as many customers - or should I say, as > > many customers with deep pockets. > > > > I know I can get my hands on a working copy of SAP, what about the > > others? I believe you can purchase an evaluation copy of Apps from the > > Oracle Store. Has anyone actually tried to train themselves on any of > > these products? Has anyone installed Apps at home for testing? > > > > Sorry if this question has been presented on the list before. > > > > Thanks, > > Saira > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: Saira Somani-Mendelin > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > -- > Mladen Gogala > Oracle DBA > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Mladen Gogala > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
