RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[John . Whelan]

  The new work is tending
more and more to be Microsoft .NET / SQL server based.  This in turn creates
problems because a year ago it was easy to find a recruit internally who
wanted to work as an Oracle DBA these days it is becoming much more
difficult.  We still do new Oracle development and those projects usually go
in very well.  Probably because we have consolidated our experienced Oracle
developers into one or two areas that have a large commitment to Oracle and
their experience helps the projects.

 Cheerio John

 
 

-Original Message-
Sent: March 3, 2003 9:49 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Thanks guys.  That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, and for
the same reasons you mentioned.

Rich

Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA


-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:35 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in 
increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a 
fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space 
allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There 
can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log 
files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as 
opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle.

I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual 
knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they

want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I 
ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to

battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work

to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as 
DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell.









>From: STEVE OLLIG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800
>
>no problem Rich.  the transaction log mirroring can be done by the 
>DBMS. and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that 
>can be placed on different disks and such.  transaction logs are kind 
>of like tables in that they must be placed in a device.  so yes, these 
>mirrored transaction logs can be kept apart and "safe".
>
>Rachel's comment is also accurate however.  if things go way wrong 
>(usually happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed 
>so full that there's no way to "archive" it and you end up "truncating" 
>it.  users tend not to like it when they can't do DML ;-)  anyway, once 
>a transaction log has been truncated there is no transaction recovery 
>until the next database backup completes.  and yes - the database 
>backup utility does hot backups.
>
> > -----Original Message-
> > From:   Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent:   Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> >
> > Steve, when you say "mirror" are the writes duplicated from SQueaL
>Server
> > or
> > hardware?  My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a 
> > student who left the mirroring of redos up to hardware.  One 
> > controller firmware
>patch
> > is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos.
> >
> > So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the 
> > same as Oracle.  Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated 
> > can the
>mirrors
> > be?
> >
> > Hope this isn't getting too off-topic.  I just want to make sure 
> > that
>I'm
> > not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any 
> > more
>DBs
> > here...
> >
> > Thx!
> > Rich
> > > on-the-fly)?  In other words, if it fills up, what happens?  Does 
> > > it
>get
> > > overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?
> > >
> > > Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product...
> > >
> > > Rich
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Jesse, Rich
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Jesse, Rich]

Thanks guys.  That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, and for
the same reasons you mentioned.

Rich

Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA


-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:35 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in 
increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a 
fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space 
allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There 
can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log 
files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as 
opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle.

I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual 
knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they

want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I 
ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to

battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work

to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as 
DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell.









>From: STEVE OLLIG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800
>
>no problem Rich.  the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS.
>and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be 
>placed
>on different disks and such.  transaction logs are kind of like tables in
>that they must be placed in a device.  so yes, these mirrored transaction
>logs can be kept apart and "safe".
>
>Rachel's comment is also accurate however.  if things go way wrong (usually
>happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that
>there's no way to "archive" it and you end up "truncating" it.  users tend
>not to like it when they can't do DML ;-)  anyway, once a transaction log
>has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database
>backup completes.  and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent:   Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> >
> > Steve, when you say "mirror" are the writes duplicated from SQueaL 
>Server
> > or
> > hardware?  My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student
> > who
> > left the mirroring of redos up to hardware.  One controller firmware 
>patch
> > is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos.
> >
> > So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same
> > as
> > Oracle.  Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the 
>mirrors
> > be?
> >
> > Hope this isn't getting too off-topic.  I just want to make sure that 
>I'm
> > not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more 
>DBs
> > here...
> >
> > Thx!
> > Rich
> > > on-the-fly)?  In other words, if it fills up, what happens?  Does it 
>get
> > > overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?
> > >
> > > Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product...
> > >
> > > Rich
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Jesse, Rich
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>--
>Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
>--
>Author: STEVE OLLIG
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
>San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web host

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Odland, Brad]

If you are an Oracle DBA and management switches to SQL Server no Oracle DBA
in the world is going to sway that decision.
By the the time an Oracle DBA will hear about that he or she is already
slated for "re-tooling".

You were very lucky to be able to present to management. 

Many times the deal is over and you are sent to MS-SQL classes or quit.

Another example of a "DBMH" system. (decision by marketing hype)

Frankly you can't have a mission critical enterprise class RDBMS on a
unreliable, unsecure OS.

(ouch)
BRad O.








-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:35 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in 
increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a 
fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space 
allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There 
can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log 
files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as 
opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle.

I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual 
knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they

want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I 
ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to

battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work

to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as 
DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell.









>From: STEVE OLLIG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800
>
>no problem Rich.  the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS.
>and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be 
>placed
>on different disks and such.  transaction logs are kind of like tables in
>that they must be placed in a device.  so yes, these mirrored transaction
>logs can be kept apart and "safe".
>
>Rachel's comment is also accurate however.  if things go way wrong (usually
>happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that
>there's no way to "archive" it and you end up "truncating" it.  users tend
>not to like it when they can't do DML ;-)  anyway, once a transaction log
>has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database
>backup completes.  and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent:   Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> >
> > Steve, when you say "mirror" are the writes duplicated from SQueaL 
>Server
> > or
> > hardware?  My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student
> > who
> > left the mirroring of redos up to hardware.  One controller firmware 
>patch
> > is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos.
> >
> > So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same
> > as
> > Oracle.  Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the 
>mirrors
> > be?
> >
> > Hope this isn't getting too off-topic.  I just want to make sure that 
>I'm
> > not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more 
>DBs
> > here...
> >
> > Thx!
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI 
>USA
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:19 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the
> > transaction log in SQeal Server.  Same effect.
> >
> > the transaction log is a fixed size.  it can be extended while the db is
> > online.  but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the 
>day
> > -
> > it's been a while).  if the transaction log fills up all DML stops.
> > database still recoverable though.  just need to clean out or extend the
> > log
> > and all is well again.
> >
> > no snapshot too old errors though ;-)
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[david davis]

The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in 
increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a 
fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space 
allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There 
can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log 
files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as 
opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle.

I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual 
knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they 
want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I 
ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to 
battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work 
to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as 
DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell.









From: STEVE OLLIG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800
no problem Rich.  the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS.
and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be 
placed
on different disks and such.  transaction logs are kind of like tables in
that they must be placed in a device.  so yes, these mirrored transaction
logs can be kept apart and "safe".

Rachel's comment is also accurate however.  if things go way wrong (usually
happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that
there's no way to "archive" it and you end up "truncating" it.  users tend
not to like it when they can't do DML ;-)  anyway, once a transaction log
has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database
backup completes.  and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups.
> -Original Message-
> From:	Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent:	Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM
> To:	Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject:	RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
>
> Steve, when you say "mirror" are the writes duplicated from SQueaL 
Server
> or
> hardware?  My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student
> who
> left the mirroring of redos up to hardware.  One controller firmware 
patch
> is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos.
>
> So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same
> as
> Oracle.  Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the 
mirrors
> be?
>
> Hope this isn't getting too off-topic.  I just want to make sure that 
I'm
> not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more 
DBs
> here...
>
> Thx!
> Rich
>
>
> Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI 
USA
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:19 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the
> transaction log in SQeal Server.  Same effect.
>
> the transaction log is a fixed size.  it can be extended while the db is
> online.  but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the 
day
> -
> it's been a while).  if the transaction log fills up all DML stops.
> database still recoverable though.  just need to clean out or extend the
> log
> and all is well again.
>
> no snapshot too old errors though ;-)
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From:	Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent:	Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM
> > To:	Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject:	RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> >
> > Yes and no.  If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are
> > effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of
> > transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware).
> > OTOH,
> > Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last
> > transaction ("no data lost") by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both 
the
> > online redos and the archives.
> >
> > Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself
> and
> > at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups
> > on-the-fly)?  In other words, if it fills up, what happens?  Does it 
get
> > overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?
> >
> > Trying to understand more of this wonderful

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[STEVE OLLIG]

no problem Rich.  the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS.
and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be placed
on different disks and such.  transaction logs are kind of like tables in
that they must be placed in a device.  so yes, these mirrored transaction
logs can be kept apart and "safe".

Rachel's comment is also accurate however.  if things go way wrong (usually
happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that
there's no way to "archive" it and you end up "truncating" it.  users tend
not to like it when they can't do DML ;-)  anyway, once a transaction log
has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database
backup completes.  and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups.

> -Original Message-
> From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject:  RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> 
> Steve, when you say "mirror" are the writes duplicated from SQueaL Server
> or
> hardware?  My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student
> who
> left the mirroring of redos up to hardware.  One controller firmware patch
> is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos.
> 
> So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same
> as
> Oracle.  Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the mirrors
> be?
> 
> Hope this isn't getting too off-topic.  I just want to make sure that I'm
> not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more DBs
> here...
> 
> Thx!
> Rich
> 
> 
> Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:19 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the
> transaction log in SQeal Server.  Same effect.
> 
> the transaction log is a fixed size.  it can be extended while the db is
> online.  but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the day
> -
> it's been a while).  if the transaction log fills up all DML stops.
> database still recoverable though.  just need to clean out or extend the
> log
> and all is well again.
> 
> no snapshot too old errors though ;-)
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent:   Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> > 
> > Yes and no.  If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are
> > effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of
> > transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware).
> > OTOH,
> > Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last
> > transaction ("no data lost") by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the
> > online redos and the archives.
> > 
> > Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself
> and
> > at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups
> > on-the-fly)?  In other words, if it fills up, what happens?  Does it get
> > overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?
> > 
> > Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product...
> > 
> > Rich
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Jesse, Rich
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: STEVE OLLIG
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Jesse, Rich]

Steve, when you say "mirror" are the writes duplicated from SQueaL Server or
hardware?  My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student who
left the mirroring of redos up to hardware.  One controller firmware patch
is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos.

So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same as
Oracle.  Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the mirrors
be?

Hope this isn't getting too off-topic.  I just want to make sure that I'm
not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more DBs
here...

Thx!
Rich


Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA


-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:19 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the
transaction log in SQeal Server.  Same effect.

the transaction log is a fixed size.  it can be extended while the db is
online.  but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the day -
it's been a while).  if the transaction log fills up all DML stops.
database still recoverable though.  just need to clean out or extend the log
and all is well again.

no snapshot too old errors though ;-)

> -Original Message-
> From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject:  RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> 
> Yes and no.  If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are
> effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of
> transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware).
> OTOH,
> Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last
> transaction ("no data lost") by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the
> online redos and the archives.
> 
> Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and
> at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups
> on-the-fly)?  In other words, if it fills up, what happens?  Does it get
> overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?
> 
> Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product...
> 
> Rich
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Jesse, Rich
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[STEVE OLLIG]

Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the
transaction log in SQeal Server.  Same effect.

the transaction log is a fixed size.  it can be extended while the db is
online.  but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the day -
it's been a while).  if the transaction log fills up all DML stops.
database still recoverable though.  just need to clean out or extend the log
and all is well again.

no snapshot too old errors though ;-)

> -Original Message-
> From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject:  RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> 
> Yes and no.  If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are
> effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of
> transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware).
> OTOH,
> Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last
> transaction ("no data lost") by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the
> online redos and the archives.
> 
> Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and
> at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups
> on-the-fly)?  In other words, if it fills up, what happens?  Does it get
> overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?
> 
> Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product...
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:05 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Sorry but point 7 isn't exactly true.
> 
> Transaction logging does take place and can be backed up for reapplication
> 
> to a database backup.
> 
> Its not perhaps as well implemented as Oracle's but I have a system with
> the
> 
> transaction log backed up every 30 minutes.
> 
> The implementation is different but the effect is the same with the
> ability 
> to do point in time recovery. And they do have log shipping capability in 
> SQL Server 2000 (Enterprise).
> 
> The point that really bothered me was the lack of multiplexing the writes
> to
> 
> the transaction logs (redo). DB2/UDB has it.  The MSS method (only option)
> 
> is to Mirror.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> >From: Jan Pruner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:19:10 -0800
> >
> >Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from
> >Microsoft.
> >I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise.
> >1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN
> ...
> >THEN.
> >
> >2. MS SQL has nothing  like package.
> >
> >3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years
> will
> >have)
> >
> >4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging
> for
> >whole session.
> >
> >5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence).
> >
> >6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to 
> >store
> >passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS 
> >SQL)
> >:-)
> >
> >7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL.
> >
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Jesse, Rich
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
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> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Rachel Carmichael]

last time I worked with SQL Server (at least 5 years ago, so this may
be totally out of date)

if the log file filled completely you had to truncate it to clear
space, you could not archive off. If it was not filled, you could
archive and clear it.


--- "Jesse, Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes and no.  If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you
> are
> effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of
> transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware).
>  OTOH,
> Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last
> transaction ("no data lost") by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both
> the
> online redos and the archives.
> 
> Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB
> itself and
> at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups
> on-the-fly)?  In other words, if it fills up, what happens?  Does it
> get
> overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?
> 
> Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product...
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI
> USA
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:05 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Sorry but point 7 isn't exactly true.
> 
> Transaction logging does take place and can be backed up for
> reapplication 
> to a database backup.
> 
> Its not perhaps as well implemented as Oracle's but I have a system
> with the
> 
> transaction log backed up every 30 minutes.
> 
> The implementation is different but the effect is the same with the
> ability 
> to do point in time recovery. And they do have log shipping
> capability in 
> SQL Server 2000 (Enterprise).
> 
> The point that really bothered me was the lack of multiplexing the
> writes to
> 
> the transaction logs (redo). DB2/UDB has it.  The MSS method (only
> option) 
> is to Mirror.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> >From: Jan Pruner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:19:10 -0800
> >
> >Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people
> from
> >Microsoft.
> >I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise.
> >1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION
> WHEN ...
> >THEN.
> >
> >2. MS SQL has nothing  like package.
> >
> >3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2
> years will
> >have)
> >
> >4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop
> logging for
> >whole session.
> >
> >5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT
> sequence).
> >
> >6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare
> to 
> >store
> >passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is
> using MS 
> >SQL)
> >:-)
> >
> >7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL.
> >
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Jesse, Rich
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> 


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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Jesse, Rich]

Yes and no.  If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are
effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of
transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware).  OTOH,
Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last
transaction ("no data lost") by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the
online redos and the archives.

Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and
at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups
on-the-fly)?  In other words, if it fills up, what happens?  Does it get
overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?

Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product...

Rich


Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA


-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:05 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Sorry but point 7 isn't exactly true.

Transaction logging does take place and can be backed up for reapplication 
to a database backup.

Its not perhaps as well implemented as Oracle's but I have a system with the

transaction log backed up every 30 minutes.

The implementation is different but the effect is the same with the ability 
to do point in time recovery. And they do have log shipping capability in 
SQL Server 2000 (Enterprise).

The point that really bothered me was the lack of multiplexing the writes to

the transaction logs (redo). DB2/UDB has it.  The MSS method (only option) 
is to Mirror.

David



>From: Jan Pruner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:19:10 -0800
>
>Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from
>Microsoft.
>I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise.
>1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ...
>THEN.
>
>2. MS SQL has nothing  like package.
>
>3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will
>have)
>
>4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for
>whole session.
>
>5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence).
>
>6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to 
>store
>passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS 
>SQL)
>:-)
>
>7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL.
>
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
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  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Dale]

Hi

I saw this list posted on an Oracle Newsgroup a while back :-)

Oracle has multiversioning. SQL Server has no equivalent
In Oracle reads don't block writes and writes don't block reads
In Oracle there are unlimited row level locks
In Oracle there is no such thing as lock escallation or page level
locking
In Oracle there is no need to use temp tables to accumulate intermediate
level results
In Oracle phyiscal transactions can be as large as logical transactions.
No need to fragment them
Oracle runs on platforms other than Windows
Oracle has many trigger types not available in SQL Server
Oracle lines the pockets of Larry Ellison rather than Bill Gates. Which
means that someone is having fun with your money rather than just
hoarding it.

Also look at the link below for a longish (400+ lines) and very detailed
technical comparison.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=faulkner+oracle+sqlserver&hl=en&lr=lang_en
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&selm=FssV9.25204%24jM5.66998%40newsfeeds.bigp
ond.com&rnum=4

- Dale
-
Instant schema documentation for free? Check out the DDL to HTML facility in
the freeware DBATool. http://www.DataBee.com


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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[david davis]

Nope. Can backup online. However certain actions can't be perfomed while the 
transaction log is being backed. eg. Add new database file to the system. 
This also applies to database backups.

David






From: "Boivin, Patrice J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:59:14 -0800
Not sure if this is true... I heard that to back up the transaction log, 
the
database has to be stopped.

???

Pat.

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:19 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from
Microsoft.
I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise.
1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ...
THEN.
2. MS SQL has nothing  like package.

3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will
have)
4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for
whole session.
5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence).

6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to
store
passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS
SQL)
:-)
7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL.

Just my notes from meeting.

JP

On Thursday 27 February 2003 21:35, you wrote:
> I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix
> stability to Windows stability.
>
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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Boivin, Patrice J]

Not sure if this is true... I heard that to back up the transaction log, the
database has to be stopped.

???

Pat.

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:19 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from 
Microsoft.
I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise.
1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... 
THEN.

2. MS SQL has nothing  like package.

3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will 
have)

4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for 
whole session.

5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence).

6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to
store 
passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS
SQL) 
:-)

7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL.

Just my notes from meeting.

JP

On Thursday 27 February 2003 21:35, you wrote:
> I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix
> stability to Windows stability.
>

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Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[david davis]

Sorry but point 7 isn't exactly true.

Transaction logging does take place and can be backed up for reapplication 
to a database backup.

Its not perhaps as well implemented as Oracle's but I have a system with the 
transaction log backed up every 30 minutes.

The implementation is different but the effect is the same with the ability 
to do point in time recovery. And they do have log shipping capability in 
SQL Server 2000 (Enterprise).

The point that really bothered me was the lack of multiplexing the writes to 
the transaction logs (redo). DB2/UDB has it.  The MSS method (only option) 
is to Mirror.

David



From: Jan Pruner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:19:10 -0800
Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from
Microsoft.
I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise.
1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ...
THEN.
2. MS SQL has nothing  like package.

3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will
have)
4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for
whole session.
5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence).

6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to 
store
passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS 
SQL)
:-)

7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL.

Just my notes from meeting.

JP

On Thursday 27 February 2003 21:35, you wrote:
> I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix
> stability to Windows stability.
>
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Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Jan Pruner]

Advanced Linux is free, but if you choose to buy prepackaged distribution then 
you have to pay for it. But you will find the same software as in 
"downloaded" distribution. :-)

I'm using SuSE workstation for Oracle developing and everyday office work more 
than 2 years now and, personally (!), to work today on Windows200 is a pain 
for me. I'm using KDE desktop.

JP

On Friday 28 February 2003 13:59, you wrote:
> www.opensource.org and other sites (The Register) and
> www.globetechnology.com (Globe & Mail's technology news site) mentioned
> that MS considers LINUX a threat.
>
> Last week I attended an OS security class where each student had two PCs,
> one was a Windows2000 machine, one was a LINUX machine.  The LINUX machine
> came with Gnome, which doesn't look all that bad.  I would argue that the
> LINUX GUI needs a bit of streamlining but you can see that it has
> dramatically improved.
>
> LINUX still has software compatibility problems, the courseware referred to
> a LINUX configuration program that (for some unknown reason) wouldn't work
> on our LINUX machines.
>
> The LINUX machines seemed to have older hardware, I have the impression
> that they were the ones the training center had "replaced and upgraded" to
> Windows2000, but now had turned around and were using them for teaching OS
> security on LINUX.  Speed was comparable.
>
> The irony is that as LINUX becomes more streamlined, vendors start charging
> for it... Will there be a meeting in the middle of open source OS and
> Windows?  If Microsoft has to reduce its prices for  Windows, how will it
> maintain its revenue growth?
>
> Advanced LINUX is not free either, I don't know how its price compares with
> the Windows2000 offering though.
>
> Regards,
> Patrice Boivin
> Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:40 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> As long as I'm not replaced by an open source (cheap) DBA 
>
>
> Stephane Paquette
> Administrateur de bases de donnees
> Database Administrator
> Standard Life
> www.standardlife.ca
> Tel. (514) 925-7187
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 5:04 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I don't believe MS will ever give up.  Isn't that part of American
> Capitalism?  Your competitor does you one better on some test, therefore
> you've
> got to better them.  Give Oracle a couple of weeks and we'll here that one
> too.
>
> But seriously, how many of us really care about the TP-C benchmark?
> It's
> great for marketing and the sales droids but how do I relate that to the
> business needs of where I'm working?  Great, we can push the database to
> 400K+
> transactions per second, wow.  Now if I could just get those 300 testers on
> the
> floor to take advantage of that when their tests are 5 minutes long!!
> Somehow
> the capabilities of the server/database combination has gotten SOO big that
> it
> can't be filled anymore or so the users think when they release the query
> from
> hell.
>
> BTW: As I look down the road to the future, I wonder how much of the
> commercial software industry is going to survive the wave of open source
> stuff
> coming down the pipe?  Here I am, today, sitting at a MS Win2K desktop with
> Oracle running on the database server.  A couple of years down the road I
> can
> see a Linux, or some derivative of it, as the desktop and PostgreSql on the
> database server.  Processing data will still have to happen and relational
> data
> will still be around, but will MS and Oracle??  Damn good question I'd have
> to
> say.
>
> /* rant mode off, cool mode on */
>
> Dick Goulet
>
> Reply Separator
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date:   2/27/2003 11:26 AM
>
> For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance
> (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?).
> Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah
> I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship.
>
> http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707
> 
>
>
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Boyle Candi]

The major misconception is that open source is free (As in no charge, al
la "Free beer").  This this not the case.  It is free, as in you can see
the source code, play with it, and distribute it.  However, you need
support, maintenance, etc.  This is where the costs are.

My company uses Linux for production servers.  We didn't move to it
strictly because of cost.  We moved to it for freedom and flexibility
(as opposed to being tied to IBM support contracts).  We have paid for 5
people to undergo training and certification and pay for licenses for
RedHat Advanced Server.  It is worth every penny to not have to schedule
weekly reboots of the servers (which the networking group, running
windoze, has to).  It is also priceless to no longer have IBM telling us
that merely considering touching the RS6000 violates our support
contract.

-Candi

Proud user of Evolution mail client on a linux box running KDE... and
vmware for windows



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Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Jan Pruner]

Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from 
Microsoft.
I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise.
1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... 
THEN.

2. MS SQL has nothing  like package.

3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will 
have)

4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for 
whole session.

5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence).

6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to store 
passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS SQL) 
:-)

7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL.

Just my notes from meeting.

JP

On Thursday 27 February 2003 21:35, you wrote:
> I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix
> stability to Windows stability.
>

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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Boivin, Patrice J]

www.opensource.org and other sites (The Register) and
www.globetechnology.com (Globe & Mail's technology news site) mentioned that
MS considers LINUX a threat.

Last week I attended an OS security class where each student had two PCs,
one was a Windows2000 machine, one was a LINUX machine.  The LINUX machine
came with Gnome, which doesn't look all that bad.  I would argue that the
LINUX GUI needs a bit of streamlining but you can see that it has
dramatically improved.

LINUX still has software compatibility problems, the courseware referred to
a LINUX configuration program that (for some unknown reason) wouldn't work
on our LINUX machines.

The LINUX machines seemed to have older hardware, I have the impression that
they were the ones the training center had "replaced and upgraded" to
Windows2000, but now had turned around and were using them for teaching OS
security on LINUX.  Speed was comparable.

The irony is that as LINUX becomes more streamlined, vendors start charging
for it... Will there be a meeting in the middle of open source OS and
Windows?  If Microsoft has to reduce its prices for  Windows, how will it
maintain its revenue growth?

Advanced LINUX is not free either, I don't know how its price compares with
the Windows2000 offering though.

Regards,
Patrice Boivin
Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:40 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


As long as I'm not replaced by an open source (cheap) DBA 


Stephane Paquette
Administrateur de bases de donnees
Database Administrator
Standard Life
www.standardlife.ca
Tel. (514) 925-7187
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 



-Original Message-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 5:04 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I don't believe MS will ever give up.  Isn't that part of American
Capitalism?  Your competitor does you one better on some test, therefore
you've
got to better them.  Give Oracle a couple of weeks and we'll here that one
too.

But seriously, how many of us really care about the TP-C benchmark?
It's
great for marketing and the sales droids but how do I relate that to the
business needs of where I'm working?  Great, we can push the database to
400K+
transactions per second, wow.  Now if I could just get those 300 testers on
the
floor to take advantage of that when their tests are 5 minutes long!!
Somehow
the capabilities of the server/database combination has gotten SOO big that
it
can't be filled anymore or so the users think when they release the query
from
hell.

BTW: As I look down the road to the future, I wonder how much of the
commercial software industry is going to survive the wave of open source
stuff
coming down the pipe?  Here I am, today, sitting at a MS Win2K desktop with
Oracle running on the database server.  A couple of years down the road I
can
see a Linux, or some derivative of it, as the desktop and PostgreSql on the
database server.  Processing data will still have to happen and relational
data
will still be around, but will MS and Oracle??  Damn good question I'd have
to
say.

/* rant mode off, cool mode on */

Dick Goulet

Reply Separator
Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   2/27/2003 11:26 AM

For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance
(wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?).
Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah
I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship.

http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707




Dennis Williams
DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Glenn Stauffer]

Well, if they are serious about staying in the big db market, they'd better
keep trying.  And, where do you catch the attention of managers and
journalists?  Show some big commitments to your platform by major companies
or show performance benchmark results that rival or exceed your
competition's.  I'd like to see MS put some pressure on Oracle; maybe that
would drive Oracle to reduce prices or make further improvement in the
quality of management tools, etc.

Glenn Stauffer

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM


> For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance
> (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?).
> Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah
> I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship.
>
> http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707
> 
>
>
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>
>

-- 
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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Stephane Paquette]

As long as I'm not replaced by an open source (cheap) DBA 


Stephane Paquette
Administrateur de bases de donnees
Database Administrator
Standard Life
www.standardlife.ca
Tel. (514) 925-7187
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 



-Original Message-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 5:04 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I don't believe MS will ever give up.  Isn't that part of American
Capitalism?  Your competitor does you one better on some test, therefore
you've
got to better them.  Give Oracle a couple of weeks and we'll here that one
too.

But seriously, how many of us really care about the TP-C benchmark?
It's
great for marketing and the sales droids but how do I relate that to the
business needs of where I'm working?  Great, we can push the database to
400K+
transactions per second, wow.  Now if I could just get those 300 testers on
the
floor to take advantage of that when their tests are 5 minutes long!!
Somehow
the capabilities of the server/database combination has gotten SOO big that
it
can't be filled anymore or so the users think when they release the query
from
hell.

BTW: As I look down the road to the future, I wonder how much of the
commercial software industry is going to survive the wave of open source
stuff
coming down the pipe?  Here I am, today, sitting at a MS Win2K desktop with
Oracle running on the database server.  A couple of years down the road I
can
see a Linux, or some derivative of it, as the desktop and PostgreSql on the
database server.  Processing data will still have to happen and relational
data
will still be around, but will MS and Oracle??  Damn good question I'd have
to
say.

/* rant mode off, cool mode on */

Dick Goulet

Reply Separator
Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   2/27/2003 11:26 AM

For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance
(wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?).
Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah
I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship.

http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707




Dennis Williams
DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Nick Wagner]

Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!



He's 
got a good point,  performance at that point doesn't matter if your system 
must be rebooted weekly, and crashes every couple of days.   

 
The 
tests should be run 24x7 for 350 days... to get a real idea on what kind of 
reliability and performance you can get.  
-Original Message-From: Jamadagni, Rajendra 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 
11:44 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: 
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Select * from dual / 
always gives good performance ... 
Okay ... MS got good numbers, so assume that system was so 
tweaked that no other program else might be running on it for all we know. 
Launch a local IE and see the TPC-C go down ... (I know, sometimes I can be evil 
...) 
But TPC-C doesn't care about the effect of virus attacks? 
Available exploits? BSOD? Now that itanium is 64bit and faster, would you see a 
BSOD appear faster?
I don't hate MS, I just like them less than I like Unix 
systems... that's all, it is a personal preference. ps: 
This email is sent using Outlook/2000 running on Windoz/2000. 
Raj - 
Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com Any views expressed here are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !! 

-Original Message- From: DENNIS 
WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: 
MS SQL hasn't given up! 
For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in 
performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years 
ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like 
the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler 
because it won the NASCAR championship.   
http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 
<http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707> 
  
Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA 
Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: 
http://www.orafaq.net 
-- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS 
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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San Diego, California    
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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Boivin, Patrice J]

Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!



I 
would be curious to know what changes they made to the OS, what services they 
decided not to run.
 
Did 
they follow their own security guidelines before running the 
tests?
 
Pat.

  -Original Message-From: Jamadagni, Rajendra 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, February 27, 
  2003 3:44 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list 
  ORACLE-LSubject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
  Select * from dual / 
  always gives good performance ... 
  Okay ... MS got good numbers, so assume that system was so 
  tweaked that no other program else might be running on it for all we know. 
  Launch a local IE and see the TPC-C go down ... (I know, sometimes I can be 
  evil ...) 
  But TPC-C doesn't care about the effect of virus attacks? 
  Available exploits? BSOD? Now that itanium is 64bit and faster, would you see 
  a BSOD appear faster?
  I don't hate MS, I just like them less than I like Unix 
  systems... that's all, it is a personal preference. ps: This email is sent using Outlook/2000 running on 
  Windoz/2000. 
  Raj - 
  Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com Any views expressed here are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !! 
  
  -Original Message- From: 
  DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up! 
  For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in 
  performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years 
  ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks 
  like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a 
  Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship.   http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 
  <http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707> 
    
  Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA 
  Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  -- Please see the official ORACLE-L 
  FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- 
  Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS   
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Fat City Network Services    -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com 
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  California    -- Mailing list and web 
  hosting services - 
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  list you want to be removed from).  You may also 
  send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). 

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Jamadagni, Rajendra]

Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!



Paula,
 
I like the 100% tired part.
 
Raj
- 
Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot 
com Any views expressed here are 
strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can 
have facts, having an opinion is an art !! 

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, February 27, 
  2003 3:09 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list 
  ORACLE-LSubject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
  I think it is foolish to ignore MS SQL at this point.  I 
  think that knowing MS SQL only benefits me as a Oracle DBA in the 
  long-run.  It helps to understand the core concepts of managing 
  RDBMS.  I don't think I could know both in the same amount of detail and 
  frankly there is a lot more to know about Oracle from a purely RDBMS basis 
  because there is more to deal with - I think this translates to more 
  flexibility of an RDBMS.  I think we become more valuable to employers 
  and in the market if we can understand both to some degree.  Sorry.  
  Just observing reality.  
  Paula Stankus 80% OCP DBA 8i, 100% 
  DBA, X% Project Mgr, X% Developer, X% 9IAS ADministrator, X% ArcSDE 
  Administrator, X% Data Architect, 100% Wife, Mother and Daughter, 100% 
  Tired.
*This e-mail 
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and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank 
you.*1

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Paula_Stankus]

Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!



I 
agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix stability to 
Windows stability.  

  -Original Message-From: Jamadagni, Rajendra 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, February 27, 
  2003 2:44 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list 
  ORACLE-LSubject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
  Select * from dual / 
  always gives good performance ... 
  Okay ... MS got good numbers, so assume that system was so 
  tweaked that no other program else might be running on it for all we know. 
  Launch a local IE and see the TPC-C go down ... (I know, sometimes I can be 
  evil ...) 
  But TPC-C doesn't care about the effect of virus attacks? 
  Available exploits? BSOD? Now that itanium is 64bit and faster, would you see 
  a BSOD appear faster?
  I don't hate MS, I just like them less than I like Unix 
  systems... that's all, it is a personal preference. ps: This email is sent using Outlook/2000 running on 
  Windoz/2000. 
  Raj - 
  Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com Any views expressed here are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !! 
  
  -Original Message- From: 
  DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up! 
  For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in 
  performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years 
  ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks 
  like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a 
  Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship.   http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 
  <http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707> 
    
  Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA 
  Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  -- Please see the official ORACLE-L 
  FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Fat City Network Services    -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com 
  San Diego, 
  California    -- Mailing list and web 
  hosting services - 
  To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail 
  message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling 
  of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line 
  containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing 
  list you want to be removed from).  You may also 
  send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). 

RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Paula_Stankus]

Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!





I think it is foolish to ignore MS SQL at this point.  I think that knowing MS SQL only benefits me as a Oracle DBA in the long-run.  It helps to understand the core concepts of managing RDBMS.  I don't think I could know both in the same amount of detail and frankly there is a lot more to know about Oracle from a purely RDBMS basis because there is more to deal with - I think this translates to more flexibility of an RDBMS.  I think we become more valuable to employers and in the market if we can understand both to some degree.  Sorry.  Just observing reality.  

Paula Stankus
80% OCP DBA 8i, 100% DBA, X% Project Mgr, X% Developer, X% 9IAS ADministrator, X% ArcSDE Administrator, X% Data Architect, 100% Wife, Mother and Daughter, 100% Tired.

-Original Message-
From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up!



For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance
(wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?).
Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah
I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship.
 
http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707
<http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707> 
 



Dennis Williams 
DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA 
Lifetouch, Inc. 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Lyndon Tiu]

If you know MS. You should know they will never give up. They will
conquer the Universe one day. Resistance is futile.

-- 
Lyndon Tiu


Quoting DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in
> performance
> (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?).
> Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR
> winners. Yeah
> I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR
> championship.
>  
> http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707
>  
>  
> 
> 
> Dennis Williams 
> DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA 
> Lifetouch, Inc. 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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Author: Lyndon Tiu
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RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!

[Jamadagni, Rajendra]

Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!





Select * from dual
/


always gives good performance ... 


Okay ... MS got good numbers, so assume that system was so tweaked that no other program else might be running on it for all we know. Launch a local IE and see the TPC-C go down ... (I know, sometimes I can be evil ...) 

But TPC-C doesn't care about the effect of virus attacks? Available exploits? BSOD? Now that itanium is 64bit and faster, would you see a BSOD appear faster?

I don't hate MS, I just like them less than I like Unix systems... that's all, it is a personal preference.
ps: This email is sent using Outlook/2000 running on Windoz/2000.


Raj
-
Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com
Any views expressed here are strictly personal.
QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !!



-Original Message-
From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up!



For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance
(wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?).
Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah
I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship.
 
http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707
<http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707> 
 



Dennis Williams 
DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA 
Lifetouch, Inc. 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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