RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Mladen - I'm sorry but I'm still struggling with the part of your note that says After all, I had to resign because I advised my boss to buy MIPS R3300 based DECSystems 5800 with Ultrix. In slightly less then a year . . . Let me understand. You made a recommendation, which your boss accepted. Your company received almost a year of usage, I assume it was good, reliable service. First of all, I think you are better off not working for that company. Second, other that the salesman's opinion, why do you say that was the wrong system? Were there other issues, possibly involving his wife? I can only think of all the idiots that have been promoted for suggesting the wrong system. Third, I'm kinda glad that nobody has asked my opinion of what system should be purchased (well, aside from an Altos server running a Z-80, but that worked out well, but again, NO upgrade path), and in the future I'm going to be very careful not to give anybody the idea that I'm offering an opinion unless it is clearly required by my job description. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On 2002.05.23 22:43 Brown, Pedr wrote: OpenVMS is a rock solid plafform, we run 120+ 817 databases (spread across 20 nodes) with very few platform issues. The downside is some functionality doesn't work too well (like MTS) and on the benchmarks we've done inhouse Oracle/Tru64 has always been roughly 2x as fast as Oracle/OpenVMS on the same hardware configuration. That is because VMS has an old phylosophy of using CPU modes for separation of privileged parts of the program and, partly, because of the logical names. Logical names are implemented as devices. Turn on IO tracing with the set watch command and you'll see that every access to a logical name table (process, batch, group, system) causes an IO to happen. VMS is an old system with a huuuge kernel which is better suited for TP-monitor type of applications then to an intense myriad of small processes so characteristic for Unix. The only way to beat unix is not to use two-task architecture at all, because IO is extremely expensive on VMS but to use so called single-task architecture (S:) which used to be available on VMS long time ago. Also, turn off any OS caching (Files11 started doing that as of VMS 6) as Oracle does it's own caching and VMS caching only interferes and wastes the necessary memory. Also, make sure that swapper is not too active. You need to tune the memory variables (FREELIM, BORROWLIMIT,GROWLIMIT) extremely carefully because an overactive swapper can really kill a VMS machine. Also, tune the MPW (modified page writer) and make sure that the non-paged pool is sufficiently large. I was able to beat an HP 735 with HP-UX 7 with a MicroVAX 3900 with VMS 5.0 (a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away when there was SQL*Net V1.0 which was started as a process called orasrv). Im sure that modern Alpha machines can beat the crap out of OSF/1 microkernel Unix. Consult an old lore by Clay Prestia and Bruce Ellis (where is Billy Bitsandbites when youneed him?). I used to teach people how to tune VMS (I stopped using it when the world was much younger and the version was OpenVMS 5.5-2) and I know that VMS can be very, very highly tuned. If tuned properly, I'm sure it can beat any Unix on a comparably fast HW. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, 24 May 2002 1:33 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far Left OpenVMS for Irix 5.3 and never looked back. After all, I had to resign because I advised my boss to buy MIPS R3300 based DECSystems 5800 with Ultrix. In slightly less then a year, a DEC salesman stopped by and told my boss something like: No upgrade, no trade in, no transition, no support for Ultrix. Throw your boxes away and buy the new and shiny alphas. Aftere that, I was asked to resign. I am actually glad that DEC has perished. They certainly deserved it! No more OpenVMS for me. I'll stick with the mainstream. Unix rulez! OpenVMS was a nice system, DEC products were beautifully engineered but their marketing sucked big time. They fully deserved what happened to them. -- Mladen Gogala -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
-Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:23 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) Mladen - I'm sorry but I'm still struggling with the part of your note that says After all, I had to resign because I advised my boss to buy MIPS R3300 based DECSystems 5800 with Ultrix. In slightly less then a year . . . Let me understand. You made a recommendation, which your boss accepted. Your company received almost a year of usage, I assume it was good, reliable service. Yes it was, but they have expected more then a year.They accused me of spending money on the computer that was desupported in less then a year. I was working in a communist country then ( ex Yuogoslavia) and that's how it was. First of all, I think you are better off not working for that company. So do I, but I still don't like when somebody sells me equipment that gets despported in a year. DEC should have provided bug fixes and an easy transition period. They haven't done that. I mean, I'm driving 3 years old Hyundai and they have newer and better models now, but I still don't have trash my car, do I? After all, I did receive 4 years of good service but they keep providing spare parts like AC, transmission, gas pump and alike (I haven't needed them yet). I would really hate if they told me that I will not be able to obtain spare parts and that I have to buy a new Sonata, because this one is getting desupported. Second, other that the salesman's opinion, why do you say that was the wrong system? Were there other issues, possibly involving his wife? I Nope. The system was SMP, but Ultrix has never successfully done it. There were numerous bugs and DEC wasn't providing bug fixes any more. Soon IDEAS, Oracle and ArcInfo desupported it and there was no software for the box. can only think of all the idiots that have been promoted for suggesting the wrong system. Third, I'm kinda glad that nobody has asked my opinion of what system should be purchased (well, aside from an Altos server running a Z-80, but that worked out well, but again, NO upgrade path), and in the future I'm going to be very careful not to give anybody the idea that I'm offering an opinion unless it is clearly required by my job description. Good principle which I've learned the hard way. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Gogala, Mladen wrote: system should be purchased (well, aside from an Altos server running a Z-80, but that worked out well, but again, NO upgrade path), and in the future I'm going to be very careful not to give anybody the idea that I'm offering an opinion unless it is clearly required by my job description. Good principle which I've learned the hard way. Unless, that is, you are an external consultant, in which case you invoice and run away. When I still was a student, back in 1983, one of our teachers told us that, as far as hardware was concerned, there only were IBM and DEC, because you could then be certain that those two would be around in 5 years time, and much less so about the others. At this time, he was right. -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Mladen - Thanks for replying. And I thought formerly communist countries would have had the socialist idea that nobody ever lost their job. How naive of me I'm hoping that you are in a better job situation today. Actually, I've always wondered if organizations in foreign companies sometimes get shafted into unwittingly buying obsolete US products. I formerly worked at Control Data. When it was on the verge of ceasing its proprietary hardware business, they were still selling their largest mainframes to existing customers that were trying to forestall the eventual conversion, but no new US customers were coming forward. But the company newsletters were trumpeting new foreign customers like the government of Thailand, and I wondered how they would feel when the inevitable closing came. Just to keep this on Oracle, I thing that when we look at new platforms, we need to look into the future. For example, many RISC manufacturers have conceded that they can't compete against Intel's deep pockets and are switching to the Itanium for the next generation. This may presage their switch to Linux, since if they are all on the same hardware, it doesn't make sense for them to maintain their own Unix version. Also, with a lot of people in the industry counting on the success of the Itanium, all bets are off if it flops. But as you point out, making hardware recommendations doesn't come without a cost. Personally I'm going to remember that moral for awhile, probably being less irritated when my suggestions are ignored. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:48 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:23 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) Mladen - I'm sorry but I'm still struggling with the part of your note that says After all, I had to resign because I advised my boss to buy MIPS R3300 based DECSystems 5800 with Ultrix. In slightly less then a year . . . Let me understand. You made a recommendation, which your boss accepted. Your company received almost a year of usage, I assume it was good, reliable service. Yes it was, but they have expected more then a year.They accused me of spending money on the computer that was desupported in less then a year. I was working in a communist country then ( ex Yuogoslavia) and that's how it was. First of all, I think you are better off not working for that company. So do I, but I still don't like when somebody sells me equipment that gets despported in a year. DEC should have provided bug fixes and an easy transition period. They haven't done that. I mean, I'm driving 3 years old Hyundai and they have newer and better models now, but I still don't have trash my car, do I? After all, I did receive 4 years of good service but they keep providing spare parts like AC, transmission, gas pump and alike (I haven't needed them yet). I would really hate if they told me that I will not be able to obtain spare parts and that I have to buy a new Sonata, because this one is getting desupported. Second, other that the salesman's opinion, why do you say that was the wrong system? Were there other issues, possibly involving his wife? I Nope. The system was SMP, but Ultrix has never successfully done it. There were numerous bugs and DEC wasn't providing bug fixes any more. Soon IDEAS, Oracle and ArcInfo desupported it and there was no software for the box. can only think of all the idiots that have been promoted for suggesting the wrong system. Third, I'm kinda glad that nobody has asked my opinion of what system should be purchased (well, aside from an Altos server running a Z-80, but that worked out well, but again, NO upgrade path), and in the future I'm going to be very careful not to give anybody the idea that I'm offering an opinion unless it is clearly required by my job description. Good principle which I've learned the hard way. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San
Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Rich, I thank you for the heads up. I have read the install and release notes for Oracle on OpenVMS and will approach with a lot of caution. I am very familiar with the Unix world commands and expected actions but, the OpenVMS commands I have to learn and try to understand before I attempt the install. We have 2 boxes and 1 disk farm to use. One box will be the development server and the other server will be production. I have the advantage of learning with the development install first to correct any errors in my install. Do you have any suggested links or doc's that would be of help or guidance? Thanks, Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 11:33AM As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far up as 8i, Oracle has really done themselves a disservice by bastardizing their own install on OpenVMS. There is no OFA on OpenVMS. It is VERY difficult to create and maintain a database without using Oracle's horrid scripts. Oracle refuses to recognize VMS logicals in the DB (although you can fool it). And do NOT use OpenVMS if you need MTS because it simply does not work, even in 9i (see the Midrange forum on MetaClink). I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of VMS. I've been working with it since v4.7 and haven't seen an OS that compares. HOWEVER, for some unknown reason, companies that produce software on multiple platforms tend to screw up their VMS installs. I have no idea why. I've been working in Unix for four or five years now and just don't understand why people in the Unix/Winders world make OpenVMS so difficult! It's EASY! /soapbox VMS (whoops...OpenVMS) gets a bad rap because of poor marketing, and a poor understanding of how VMS works by the people that develop on it and/or manage the systems. Hell, my OpenVMS box here that's running 4 Oracle 8.0.5 instances has had 5 minutes of down time in the past 716 days. And that downtime was due to a network failure. Five 9s, baby, and then some! Woah...once again, DBA need beer. Enjoy! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Ron Rogers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Rename Column in 9iR2 Hemant, The price I am referring to is the cost involved with moving from a Dell server on Novell to a Compaq OpenVMS server. There are a lot of company sided issues that have to be addressed and cases made for the move. In this case the software is not an issues as you stated, the issues revolve around the hardware and developmental considerations. I would be more that happy to move to the latest and greatest solid platform/database combination. It would allow us to create and implement browser based applications rather easily and would allow us to use the 9iAS Suite of products. For now all I can do is make requests for item to be included in the budget as we move forward, backwards, sideways, dance on circles. Ron ROR mª¿ªm -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
vms is a great os, if only dec ported it to the intel chip, then ms would not be what it is today. ohh well, that's history. for installs on vms use oracleins not the gui installer. they give you 2 choices, guess b/c the gui doesn't work :). wish they would bring back orainst /c for unix! gene [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 11:33AM As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far up as 8i, Oracle has really done themselves a disservice by bastardizing their own install on OpenVMS. There is no OFA on OpenVMS. It is VERY difficult to create and maintain a database without using Oracle's horrid scripts. Oracle refuses to recognize VMS logicals in the DB (although you can fool it). And do NOT use OpenVMS if you need MTS because it simply does not work, even in 9i (see the Midrange forum on MetaClink). I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of VMS. I've been working with it since v4.7 and haven't seen an OS that compares. HOWEVER, for some unknown reason, companies that produce software on multiple platforms tend to screw up their VMS installs. I have no idea why. I've been working in Unix for four or five years now and just don't understand why people in the Unix/Winders world make OpenVMS so difficult! It's EASY! /soapbox VMS (whoops...OpenVMS) gets a bad rap because of poor marketing, and a poor understanding of how VMS works by the people that develop on it and/or manage the systems. Hell, my OpenVMS box here that's running 4 Oracle 8.0.5 instances has had 5 minutes of down time in the past 716 days. And that downtime was due to a network failure. Five 9s, baby, and then some! Woah...once again, DBA need beer. Enjoy! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Ron Rogers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Rename Column in 9iR2 Hemant, The price I am referring to is the cost involved with moving from a Dell server on Novell to a Compaq OpenVMS server. There are a lot of company sided issues that have to be addressed and cases made for the move. In this case the software is not an issues as you stated, the issues revolve around the hardware and developmental considerations. I would be more that happy to move to the latest and greatest solid platform/database combination. It would allow us to create and implement browser based applications rather easily and would allow us to use the 9iAS Suite of products. For now all I can do is make requests for item to be included in the budget as we move forward, backwards, sideways, dance on circles. Ron ROR mª¿ªm -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gene Sais INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
I can add to Jesse's comments. VMS has always been the bastard of Oracle Platforms even though it was written for VMS initially. Remember that Larry first wrote Oracle on the VMS platform. The installation process is actually very clean as compared to many other environments. Yes, it does require additional knowledge of how logicals and symbols function, and yes OFA does not truly exist within the spectrum as it does on Unix. However, OFA does exist within the OpenVMS environment and is the responsibility of the DBA to exercise the implementation of it. Thus, only war-torn DBAs understand the VMS environment of Oracle and have a relatively easy time implementing on this platform. As far as logicals within the database, Jesse is correct in that Oracle is not very friendly with them if you want datafiles to use logicals. However, if you define the logicals as terminal, rooted logicals, Oracle does not translate them. In fact, this is the proper way to define data files versus using the device name. What happens if you have to move the device from DSA10 to DSA100, but the disk is still the same? It is simply moving to another controller. You are screwed if you use the physical device name. If you use logicals, all works well. Jesse is right. VMS is the strongest and most robust platform Oracle runs on. If not, then why did Oracle buy RDB and use Compaq (sorry DEC) for the clustering technology for 9i RAC? Contradict that one and you should open up your own database company. Enough ranting. Become familiar with Open VMS and all will be well. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far up as 8i, Oracle has really done themselves a disservice by bastardizing their own install on OpenVMS. There is no OFA on OpenVMS. It is VERY difficult to create and maintain a database without using Oracle's horrid scripts. Oracle refuses to recognize VMS logicals in the DB (although you can fool it). And do NOT use OpenVMS if you need MTS because it simply does not work, even in 9i (see the Midrange forum on MetaClink). I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of VMS. I've been working with it since v4.7 and haven't seen an OS that compares. HOWEVER, for some unknown reason, companies that produce software on multiple platforms tend to screw up their VMS installs. I have no idea why. I've been working in Unix for four or five years now and just don't understand why people in the Unix/Winders world make OpenVMS so difficult! It's EASY! /soapbox VMS (whoops...OpenVMS) gets a bad rap because of poor marketing, and a poor understanding of how VMS works by the people that develop on it and/or manage the systems. Hell, my OpenVMS box here that's running 4 Oracle 8.0.5 instances has had 5 minutes of down time in the past 716 days. And that downtime was due to a network failure. Five 9s, baby, and then some! Woah...once again, DBA need beer. Enjoy! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Ron Rogers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Rename Column in 9iR2 Hemant, The price I am referring to is the cost involved with moving from a Dell server on Novell to a Compaq OpenVMS server. There are a lot of company sided issues that have to be addressed and cases made for the move. In this case the software is not an issues as you stated, the issues revolve around the hardware and developmental considerations. I would be more that happy to move to the latest and greatest solid platform/database combination. It would allow us to create and implement browser based applications rather easily and would allow us to use the 9iAS Suite of products. For now all I can do is make requests for item to be included in the budget as we move forward, backwards, sideways, dance on circles. Ron ROR mª¿ªm -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Ron: There's a list at iouga-vms-l The traffic is very-very-very-very light. However, when I've needed help, the responses have been exceptional. Good luck! Barb -- From: Ron Rogers[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) Rich, I thank you for the heads up. I have read the install and release notes for Oracle on OpenVMS and will approach with a lot of caution. I am very familiar with the Unix world commands and expected actions but, the OpenVMS commands I have to learn and try to understand before I attempt the install. We have 2 boxes and 1 disk farm to use. One box will be the development server and the other server will be production. I have the advantage of learning with the development install first to correct any errors in my install. Do you have any suggested links or doc's that would be of help or guidance? Thanks, Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 11:33AM As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far up as 8i, Oracle has really done themselves a disservice by bastardizing their own install on OpenVMS. There is no OFA on OpenVMS. It is VERY difficult to create and maintain a database without using Oracle's horrid scripts. Oracle refuses to recognize VMS logicals in the DB (although you can fool it). And do NOT use OpenVMS if you need MTS because it simply does not work, even in 9i (see the Midrange forum on MetaClink). I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of VMS. I've been working with it since v4.7 and haven't seen an OS that compares. HOWEVER, for some unknown reason, companies that produce software on multiple platforms tend to screw up their VMS installs. I have no idea why. I've been working in Unix for four or five years now and just don't understand why people in the Unix/Winders world make OpenVMS so difficult! It's EASY! /soapbox VMS (whoops...OpenVMS) gets a bad rap because of poor marketing, and a poor understanding of how VMS works by the people that develop on it and/or manage the systems. Hell, my OpenVMS box here that's running 4 Oracle 8.0.5 instances has had 5 minutes of down time in the past 716 days. And that downtime was due to a network failure. Five 9s, baby, and then some! Woah...once again, DBA need beer. Enjoy! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Ron Rogers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Rename Column in 9iR2 Hemant, The price I am referring to is the cost involved with moving from a Dell server on Novell to a Compaq OpenVMS server. There are a lot of company sided issues that have to be addressed and cases made for the move. In this case the software is not an issues as you stated, the issues revolve around the hardware and developmental considerations. I would be more that happy to move to the latest and greatest solid platform/database combination. It would allow us to create and implement browser based applications rather easily and would allow us to use the 9iAS Suite of products. For now all I can do is make requests for item to be included in the budget as we move forward, backwards, sideways, dance on circles. Ron ROR mª¿ªm -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Thanks, Barb. From the traffic on this issue I think that there is quite a few VMS users on the list. They have been quiet and do not generate a lot of traffic. Does this mean that I have to watch all of the other traffic and think to myself why not convert to VMS and not have the problems? Just rambling Ron ROR mô¿ôm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 01:13PM Ron: There's a list at iouga-vms-l The traffic is very-very-very-very light. However, when I've needed help, the responses have been exceptional. Good luck! Barb -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
VMS uses logicals as much as Unix uses environment variables. I use vms logicals and unix env variables in my db create scripts. VMS logicals also work for init.ora params (eg. control_files) whereas in Unix, you must spell it out. gene *used vms b4 dos was around :)* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 12:33PM I can add to Jesse's comments. VMS has always been the bastard of Oracle Platforms even though it was written for VMS initially. Remember that Larry first wrote Oracle on the VMS platform. The installation process is actually very clean as compared to many other environments. Yes, it does require additional knowledge of how logicals and symbols function, and yes OFA does not truly exist within the spectrum as it does on Unix. However, OFA does exist within the OpenVMS environment and is the responsibility of the DBA to exercise the implementation of it. Thus, only war-torn DBAs understand the VMS environment of Oracle and have a relatively easy time implementing on this platform. As far as logicals within the database, Jesse is correct in that Oracle is not very friendly with them if you want datafiles to use logicals. However, if you define the logicals as terminal, rooted logicals, Oracle does not translate them. In fact, this is the proper way to define data files versus using the device name. What happens if you have to move the device from DSA10 to DSA100, but the disk is still the same? It is simply moving to another controller. You are screwed if you use the physical device name. If you use logicals, all works well. Jesse is right. VMS is the strongest and most robust platform Oracle runs on. If not, then why did Oracle buy RDB and use Compaq (sorry DEC) for the clustering technology for 9i RAC? Contradict that one and you should open up your own database company. Enough ranting. Become familiar with Open VMS and all will be well. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far up as 8i, Oracle has really done themselves a disservice by bastardizing their own install on OpenVMS. There is no OFA on OpenVMS. It is VERY difficult to create and maintain a database without using Oracle's horrid scripts. Oracle refuses to recognize VMS logicals in the DB (although you can fool it). And do NOT use OpenVMS if you need MTS because it simply does not work, even in 9i (see the Midrange forum on MetaClink). I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of VMS. I've been working with it since v4.7 and haven't seen an OS that compares. HOWEVER, for some unknown reason, companies that produce software on multiple platforms tend to screw up their VMS installs. I have no idea why. I've been working in Unix for four or five years now and just don't understand why people in the Unix/Winders world make OpenVMS so difficult! It's EASY! /soapbox VMS (whoops...OpenVMS) gets a bad rap because of poor marketing, and a poor understanding of how VMS works by the people that develop on it and/or manage the systems. Hell, my OpenVMS box here that's running 4 Oracle 8.0.5 instances has had 5 minutes of down time in the past 716 days. And that downtime was due to a network failure. Five 9s, baby, and then some! Woah...once again, DBA need beer. Enjoy! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Ron Rogers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Rename Column in 9iR2 Hemant, The price I am referring to is the cost involved with moving from a Dell server on Novell to a Compaq OpenVMS server. There are a lot of company sided issues that have to be addressed and cases made for the move. In this case the software is not an issues as you stated, the issues revolve around the hardware and developmental considerations. I would be more that happy to move to the latest and greatest solid platform/database combination. It would allow us to create and implement browser based applications rather easily and would allow us to use the 9iAS Suite of products. For now all I can do is make requests for item to be included in the budget as we move forward, backwards, sideways, dance on circles. Ron ROR mª¿ªm -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Do this: $define/system sys$error nla0: and everything will be working fine. Those pesky error messages will be gone. Just kidding. There is, however an open source project called FreeVMS which wants to do exactly that: to create a free version of OpenVMS for PCs, much like Linux. The home page of the project is at: http://freevms.free.fr/indexGB.html There is also a commercial company providing a wonderfull emulation for various Unix systems. They ported DCL, backup and, yes, my favorite GOLD-PF6 EDT editor. EVE (Extended VAX Editor) was by far the best editor I've ever worked with. Utilities like monitor (mon modes, mod disk/item=queue, mon page, mon pool) and backup (backup/ignore=interlock), help system and sysgen are unsurpassed peaks of computing and I've never seen anything even remotely as practical as an OpenVMS system. Even tricks of the trade, like set watch command were asthetically nice. -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 2:58 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) VMS uses logicals as much as Unix uses environment variables. I use vms logicals and unix env variables in my db create scripts. VMS logicals also work for init.ora params (eg. control_files) whereas in Unix, you must spell it out. gene *used vms b4 dos was around :)* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 12:33PM I can add to Jesse's comments. VMS has always been the bastard of Oracle Platforms even though it was written for VMS initially. Remember that Larry first wrote Oracle on the VMS platform. The installation process is actually very clean as compared to many other environments. Yes, it does require additional knowledge of how logicals and symbols function, and yes OFA does not truly exist within the spectrum as it does on Unix. However, OFA does exist within the OpenVMS environment and is the responsibility of the DBA to exercise the implementation of it. Thus, only war-torn DBAs understand the VMS environment of Oracle and have a relatively easy time implementing on this platform. As far as logicals within the database, Jesse is correct in that Oracle is not very friendly with them if you want datafiles to use logicals. However, if you define the logicals as terminal, rooted logicals, Oracle does not translate them. In fact, this is the proper way to define data files versus using the device name. What happens if you have to move the device from DSA10 to DSA100, but the disk is still the same? It is simply moving to another controller. You are screwed if you use the physical device name. If you use logicals, all works well. Jesse is right. VMS is the strongest and most robust platform Oracle runs on. If not, then why did Oracle buy RDB and use Compaq (sorry DEC) for the clustering technology for 9i RAC? Contradict that one and you should open up your own database company. Enough ranting. Become familiar with Open VMS and all will be well. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far up as 8i, Oracle has really done themselves a disservice by bastardizing their own install on OpenVMS. There is no OFA on OpenVMS. It is VERY difficult to create and maintain a database without using Oracle's horrid scripts. Oracle refuses to recognize VMS logicals in the DB (although you can fool it). And do NOT use OpenVMS if you need MTS because it simply does not work, even in 9i (see the Midrange forum on MetaClink). I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of VMS. I've been working with it since v4.7 and haven't seen an OS that compares. HOWEVER, for some unknown reason, companies that produce software on multiple platforms tend to screw up their VMS installs. I have no idea why. I've been working in Unix for four or five years now and just don't understand why people in the Unix/Winders world make OpenVMS so difficult! It's EASY! /soapbox VMS (whoops...OpenVMS) gets a bad rap because of poor marketing, and a poor understanding of how VMS works by the people that develop on it and/or manage the systems. Hell, my OpenVMS box here that's running 4 Oracle 8.0.5 instances has had 5 minutes of down time in the past 716 days. And that downtime was due to a network failure. Five 9s, baby, and then some! Woah...once again, DBA need beer. Enjoy! :) Rich Jesse
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
http://www.free-vms.org But I think they only support up to Oracle 8.1.7. ;D Of course, now that I made that little joke, I can't even get into the website... Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) vms is a great os, if only dec ported it to the intel chip, then ms would not be what it is today. ohh well, that's history. for installs on vms use oracleins not the gui installer. they give you 2 choices, guess b/c the gui doesn't work :). wish they would bring back orainst /c for unix! gene -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
try http://www.freevms.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 03:40PM http://www.free-vms.org But I think they only support up to Oracle 8.1.7. ;D Of course, now that I made that little joke, I can't even get into the website... Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) vms is a great os, if only dec ported it to the intel chip, then ms would not be what it is today. ohh well, that's history. for installs on vms use oracleins not the gui installer. they give you 2 choices, guess b/c the gui doesn't work :). wish they would bring back orainst /c for unix! gene -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gene Sais INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
hmmm, eve is the best editor and lets not forget show/process/cont/id=pid. vms on intel. i wonder if it will take off. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 03:35PM Do this: $define/system sys$error nla0: and everything will be working fine. Those pesky error messages will be gone. Just kidding. There is, however an open source project called FreeVMS which wants to do exactly that: to create a free version of OpenVMS for PCs, much like Linux. The home page of the project is at: http://freevms.free.fr/indexGB.html There is also a commercial company providing a wonderfull emulation for various Unix systems. They ported DCL, backup and, yes, my favorite GOLD-PF6 EDT editor. EVE (Extended VAX Editor) was by far the best editor I've ever worked with. Utilities like monitor (mon modes, mod disk/item=queue, mon page, mon pool) and backup (backup/ignore=interlock), help system and sysgen are unsurpassed peaks of computing and I've never seen anything even remotely as practical as an OpenVMS system. Even tricks of the trade, like set watch command were asthetically nice. -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 2:58 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) VMS uses logicals as much as Unix uses environment variables. I use vms logicals and unix env variables in my db create scripts. VMS logicals also work for init.ora params (eg. control_files) whereas in Unix, you must spell it out. gene *used vms b4 dos was around :)* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 12:33PM I can add to Jesse's comments. VMS has always been the bastard of Oracle Platforms even though it was written for VMS initially. Remember that Larry first wrote Oracle on the VMS platform. The installation process is actually very clean as compared to many other environments. Yes, it does require additional knowledge of how logicals and symbols function, and yes OFA does not truly exist within the spectrum as it does on Unix. However, OFA does exist within the OpenVMS environment and is the responsibility of the DBA to exercise the implementation of it. Thus, only war-torn DBAs understand the VMS environment of Oracle and have a relatively easy time implementing on this platform. As far as logicals within the database, Jesse is correct in that Oracle is not very friendly with them if you want datafiles to use logicals. However, if you define the logicals as terminal, rooted logicals, Oracle does not translate them. In fact, this is the proper way to define data files versus using the device name. What happens if you have to move the device from DSA10 to DSA100, but the disk is still the same? It is simply moving to another controller. You are screwed if you use the physical device name. If you use logicals, all works well. Jesse is right. VMS is the strongest and most robust platform Oracle runs on. If not, then why did Oracle buy RDB and use Compaq (sorry DEC) for the clustering technology for 9i RAC? Contradict that one and you should open up your own database company. Enough ranting. Become familiar with Open VMS and all will be well. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far up as 8i, Oracle has really done themselves a disservice by bastardizing their own install on OpenVMS. There is no OFA on OpenVMS. It is VERY difficult to create and maintain a database without using Oracle's horrid scripts. Oracle refuses to recognize VMS logicals in the DB (although you can fool it). And do NOT use OpenVMS if you need MTS because it simply does not work, even in 9i (see the Midrange forum on MetaClink). I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of VMS. I've been working with it since v4.7 and haven't seen an OS that compares. HOWEVER, for some unknown reason, companies that produce software on multiple platforms tend to screw up their VMS installs. I have no idea why. I've been working in Unix for four or five years now and just don't understand why people in the Unix/Winders world make OpenVMS so difficult! It's EASY! /soapbox VMS (whoops...OpenVMS) gets a bad rap because of poor marketing, and a poor understanding of how VMS works by the people that develop on it and/or manage the systems. Hell, my OpenVMS box here that's running 4 Oracle 8.0.5 instances has had 5 minutes of down time in the past 716 days. And that
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Actually, the gui does work for VMS. You need to use an emulator like Exceed and initiate a DecWindows session on the server. In actuality, you become a server (ie your pc) for the session. I used this for installing early versions of 8.0 and 8i and it worked quite well. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 3:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) http://www.free-vms.org But I think they only support up to Oracle 8.1.7. ;D Of course, now that I made that little joke, I can't even get into the website... Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) vms is a great os, if only dec ported it to the intel chip, then ms would not be what it is today. ohh well, that's history. for installs on vms use oracleins not the gui installer. they give you 2 choices, guess b/c the gui doesn't work :). wish they would bring back orainst /c for unix! gene -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Karniotis, Stephen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
Actually used on the console, dec cde, openvms 7.3 oracle 8.1.7.3 and the gui failed, re-ran using oracleins it worked like a charm. I don't remember the error messages. Oh well, some work, some don't. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 04:43PM Actually, the gui does work for VMS. You need to use an emulator like Exceed and initiate a DecWindows session on the server. In actuality, you become a server (ie your pc) for the session. I used this for installing early versions of 8.0 and 8i and it worked quite well. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 3:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) http://www.free-vms.org But I think they only support up to Oracle 8.1.7. ;D Of course, now that I made that little joke, I can't even get into the website... Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) vms is a great os, if only dec ported it to the intel chip, then ms would not be what it is today. ohh well, that's history. for installs on vms use oracleins not the gui installer. they give you 2 choices, guess b/c the gui doesn't work :). wish they would bring back orainst /c for unix! gene -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Karniotis, Stephen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gene Sais INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
I take it you haven't patched yet? AFAIK, 8i+ patches work off the OUI directory. And I'm guessing that ORACLEINS doesn't populate anything in there, which leads me to believe that the patch may not take. Or does it??? Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 4:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) Actually used on the console, dec cde, openvms 7.3 oracle 8.1.7.3 and the gui failed, re-ran using oracleins it worked like a charm. I don't remember the error messages. Oh well, some work, some don't. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
I applied 11 additional patches to 8.1.7.3 (I also was unable to get OUI to work, after spending hours trying.) The patches went on nice and clean. No requirement to use OUI. Worked ok for me. . . . Barb -- From: Jesse, Rich[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 4:33 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) I take it you haven't patched yet? AFAIK, 8i+ patches work off the OUI directory. And I'm guessing that ORACLEINS doesn't populate anything in there, which leads me to believe that the patch may not take. Or does it??? Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 4:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) Actually used on the console, dec cde, openvms 7.3 oracle 8.1.7.3 and the gui failed, re-ran using oracleins it worked like a charm. I don't remember the error messages. Oh well, some work, some don't. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Baker, Barbara INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
It is a new install, oracle 8.1.7, then 8.1.7.3 patch, then creation of db's. It all working so far, only been 3 weeks :). [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/23/02 06:33PM I take it you haven't patched yet? AFAIK, 8i+ patches work off the OUI directory. And I'm guessing that ORACLEINS doesn't populate anything in there, which leads me to believe that the patch may not take. Or does it??? Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 4:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2) Actually used on the console, dec cde, openvms 7.3 oracle 8.1.7.3 and the gui failed, re-ran using oracleins it worked like a charm. I don't remember the error messages. Oh well, some work, some don't. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gene Sais INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
OpenVMS is a rock solid plafform, we run 120+ 817 databases (spread across 20 nodes) with very few platform issues. The downside is some functionality doesn't work too well (like MTS) and on the benchmarks we've done inhouse Oracle/Tru64 has always been roughly 2x as fast as Oracle/OpenVMS on the same hardware configuration. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, 24 May 2002 1:33 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far up as 8i, Oracle has really done themselves a disservice by bastardizing their own install on OpenVMS. There is no OFA on OpenVMS. It is VERY difficult to create and maintain a database without using Oracle's horrid scripts. Oracle refuses to recognize VMS logicals in the DB (although you can fool it). And do NOT use OpenVMS if you need MTS because it simply does not work, even in 9i (see the Midrange forum on MetaClink). I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of VMS. I've been working with it since v4.7 and haven't seen an OS that compares. HOWEVER, for some unknown reason, companies that produce software on multiple platforms tend to screw up their VMS installs. I have no idea why. I've been working in Unix for four or five years now and just don't understand why people in the Unix/Winders world make OpenVMS so difficult! It's EASY! /soapbox VMS (whoops...OpenVMS) gets a bad rap because of poor marketing, and a poor understanding of how VMS works by the people that develop on it and/or manage the systems. Hell, my OpenVMS box here that's running 4 Oracle 8.0.5 instances has had 5 minutes of down time in the past 716 days. And that downtime was due to a network failure. Five 9s, baby, and then some! Woah...once again, DBA need beer. Enjoy! :) Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- From: Ron Rogers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Rename Column in 9iR2 Hemant, The price I am referring to is the cost involved with moving from a Dell server on Novell to a Compaq OpenVMS server. There are a lot of company sided issues that have to be addressed and cases made for the move. In this case the software is not an issues as you stated, the issues revolve around the hardware and developmental considerations. I would be more that happy to move to the latest and greatest solid platform/database combination. It would allow us to create and implement browser based applications rather easily and would allow us to use the 9iAS Suite of products. For now all I can do is make requests for item to be included in the budget as we move forward, backwards, sideways, dance on circles. Ron ROR mª¿ªm -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Brown, Pedr INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle and OpenVMS (was: Rename Column in 9iR2)
On 2002.05.23 22:43 Brown, Pedr wrote: OpenVMS is a rock solid plafform, we run 120+ 817 databases (spread across 20 nodes) with very few platform issues. The downside is some functionality doesn't work too well (like MTS) and on the benchmarks we've done inhouse Oracle/Tru64 has always been roughly 2x as fast as Oracle/OpenVMS on the same hardware configuration. That is because VMS has an old phylosophy of using CPU modes for separation of privileged parts of the program and, partly, because of the logical names. Logical names are implemented as devices. Turn on IO tracing with the set watch command and you'll see that every access to a logical name table (process, batch, group, system) causes an IO to happen. VMS is an old system with a huuuge kernel which is better suited for TP-monitor type of applications then to an intense myriad of small processes so characteristic for Unix. The only way to beat unix is not to use two-task architecture at all, because IO is extremely expensive on VMS but to use so called single-task architecture (S:) which used to be available on VMS long time ago. Also, turn off any OS caching (Files11 started doing that as of VMS 6) as Oracle does it's own caching and VMS caching only interferes and wastes the necessary memory. Also, make sure that swapper is not too active. You need to tune the memory variables (FREELIM, BORROWLIMIT,GROWLIMIT) extremely carefully because an overactive swapper can really kill a VMS machine. Also, tune the MPW (modified page writer) and make sure that the non-paged pool is sufficiently large. I was able to beat an HP 735 with HP-UX 7 with a MicroVAX 3900 with VMS 5.0 (a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away when there was SQL*Net V1.0 which was started as a process called orasrv). Im sure that modern Alpha machines can beat the crap out of OSF/1 microkernel Unix. Consult an old lore by Clay Prestia and Bruce Ellis (where is Billy Bitsandbites when youneed him?). I used to teach people how to tune VMS (I stopped using it when the world was much younger and the version was OpenVMS 5.5-2) and I know that VMS can be very, very highly tuned. If tuned properly, I'm sure it can beat any Unix on a comparably fast HW. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, 24 May 2002 1:33 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As a side note, please please please become familiar with OpenVMS and more importantly Oracle on OpenVMS before tackling this. At least as far Left OpenVMS for Irix 5.3 and never looked back. After all, I had to resign because I advised my boss to buy MIPS R3300 based DECSystems 5800 with Ultrix. In slightly less then a year, a DEC salesman stopped by and told my boss something like: No upgrade, no trade in, no transition, no support for Ultrix. Throw your boxes away and buy the new and shiny alphas. Aftere that, I was asked to resign. I am actually glad that DEC has perished. They certainly deserved it! No more OpenVMS for me. I'll stick with the mainstream. Unix rulez! OpenVMS was a nice system, DEC products were beautifully engineered but their marketing sucked big time. They fully deserved what happened to them. -- Mladen Gogala -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
