RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Title: RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Guys, In my experience there are so many issues that come up in design that eventually affect the quality of life for a production dba that I have real concerns splitting the role. In my world as much as possible I do both starting with design I look at the various tradeoffs between performance (at various levels), maintenance and assist in architectural and design issues that later translate into how the database is made physical and therefore how much heartburn I might have with things like backups and recoveries, performance tuning and options. I work with developers in assisting in tuning SQL and this helps again in determining the best database design and understanding the tradeoffs necessary. If you do break these roles apart what is to keep an application DBA from doing the quick and dirty or neglecting long-term maintenance issues. They would necessarily have to deal with the beeps in the middle-of-the night that could have been averted due to a better initial design/architecture. To me these roles are done better if combined or at the least if the productional DBA type is at some level part of design along with the application DBA type.
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Peter Barnett wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Much of this may have already been said, but, here's my $0.02 ($0.012 after taxes): Generally, the term Applications DBA (note the plural form of Application there), refers to one who is concerned with the Oracle Applications (or Oracle Financials, or the Oracle Cooperative Applications, or the Oracle E-Business Suite, or whatever they're calling the bundle this week). That said, there is a pretty significant difference between an Applications DBA and a Regular DBA. Mostly, the Applications DBA would tend to do less of the data-modeling and, in some degree, less of the developer-handholding than a Regular DBA. Also, prior to the advent of a simple little trick they decided to give a complex-sounding name server-partitioning, the Regular DBA would probably have been much more familiar with the *newer* features of the RDBMS. (The Oracle Apps being such a behemoth that they generally don't (didn't) make use of many of those features). For example: Roles, Defined referential integrity constraints (relatively new to the Apps), partitioned tables/views, star schemas, replication, etc. Although, like anything, your degree of exposure to these features may somewhat depend on the systems you're supporting/implementing. Now, as to a Production vs. a Development DBA (Development probably being a more appropriate term in most cases). A Production DBA is generally more concerned with the overall availability and stability of the system (Backup/Recovery, Performance [identifying bad code and bashing the developer over the head with it], datafile placement, Failover, etc.). A Development DBA probably has more direct input into the design of the system (Normailzation, ERDs, tuning bad code before it goes into production). The Development DBA also probably has to/gets to deal with the Developers more frequently. So, IMHO, a good Production DBA would more likely have a Systems Administration background. While a good Development DBA would more likely have a Development background. And, a Great DBA should have some of both. -- James James J. Morrow E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Principal Consultant Tenure Systems, Inc. McKinney, TX, USA The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: James J. Morrow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Prod. DBA tends to be more responsible. App. DBA tends to be more creative. But could be both 8=) and the best are. -- Alexandre -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Alexandre Gorbatchev INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
For what it's worth I'll add my .02 cents worth to this. I've been in IT now for 14 years, started with Informix for my first 3 or 4 years, the rest with Oracle. I've seen my share of duhvelopers but get the best giggles from the fights that happen between DBA's and System Admins. You know the type I'm talking about, the DBA says the semaphores need to be tweaked and the System Admin knows nothing about Oracle and doesn't want a lowly DBA to poke around ;-) In my humble opinion, perfect path to DBA enlightenment: A couple or three years as a developer, a few as a System Admin a year as a junior DBA learning the Job Joe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joe LaCascio INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Wow Joe, how very like-minded we are. I'm not in the least swayed in this opinion by my programmer/system administrator/oracle DBA career path. 3 years PL/1,DL/1 and Assembler programming for those of you with good memories. 3 years mainframe system admin (VSE? VM?). Actually still programming at the same time. Long days! 11 years sys admin and Oracle DBA with the balance shifting further towards DBA as the years went by. =) Mike -Original Message- Sent: 31 May 2002 13:58 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L For what it's worth I'll add my .02 cents worth to this. I've been in IT now for 14 years, started with Informix for my first 3 or 4 years, the rest with Oracle. I've seen my share of duhvelopers but get the best giggles from the fights that happen between DBA's and System Admins. You know the type I'm talking about, the DBA says the semaphores need to be tweaked and the System Admin knows nothing about Oracle and doesn't want a lowly DBA to poke around ;-) In my humble opinion, perfect path to DBA enlightenment: A couple or three years as a developer, a few as a System Admin a year as a junior DBA learning the Job Joe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Hately Mike INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
see, this is why I always bribe my SAs. chocolate seems to work well, beers after work as necessary :) --- Joe LaCascio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For what it's worth I'll add my .02 cents worth to this. I've been in IT now for 14 years, started with Informix for my first 3 or 4 years, the rest with Oracle. I've seen my share of duhvelopers but get the best giggles from the fights that happen between DBA's and System Admins. You know the type I'm talking about, the DBA says the semaphores need to be tweaked and the System Admin knows nothing about Oracle and doesn't want a lowly DBA to poke around ;-) In my humble opinion, perfect path to DBA enlightenment: A couple or three years as a developer, a few as a System Admin a year as a junior DBA learning the Job Joe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joe LaCascio INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Amen to that. Keep on the good side of the sys admins! Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L see, this is why I always bribe my SAs. chocolate seems to work well, beers after work as necessary :) --- Joe LaCascio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For what it's worth I'll add my .02 cents worth to this. I've been in IT now for 14 years, started with Informix for my first 3 or 4 years, the rest with Oracle. I've seen my share of duhvelopers but get the best giggles from the fights that happen between DBA's and System Admins. You know the type I'm talking about, the DBA says the semaphores need to be tweaked and the System Admin knows nothing about Oracle and doesn't want a lowly DBA to poke around ;-) In my humble opinion, perfect path to DBA enlightenment: A couple or three years as a developer, a few as a System Admin a year as a junior DBA learning the Job Joe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joe LaCascio INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Prod. DBA tends to be more cynical. Speaking of a Prod DBA, did anyone notice that you iTAR button in metalink is gone? When you take a look at your profile, you'll see that there is Read TAR privilege missing. -Original Message- From: Alexandre Gorbatchev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 4:23 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Prod. DBA tends to be more responsible. App. DBA tends to be more creative. But could be both 8=) and the best are. -- Alexandre -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Alexandre Gorbatchev INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
I have the button to create tar and read tar privilege. Your admin must have changed it. Raj __ Rajendra Jamadagni MIS, ESPN Inc. Rajendra dot Jamadagni at ESPN dot com Any opinion expressed here is personal and doesn't reflect that of ESPN Inc. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, but having an opinion is an art! -Original Message- Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 5:00 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Prod. DBA tends to be more cynical. Speaking of a Prod DBA, did anyone notice that you iTAR button in metalink is gone? When you take a look at your profile, you'll see that there is Read TAR privilege missing. ***1 This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify ESPN at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you. ***1
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Mladen, This happened to me last week and was related to the support contract switching over to the new/renewed version. We called our rep and the TAR button was back almost immediately. John P Weatherman Database Administrator Replacements Ltd. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 5:00 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Prod. DBA tends to be more cynical. Speaking of a Prod DBA, did anyone notice that you iTAR button in metalink is gone? When you take a look at your profile, you'll see that there is Read TAR privilege missing. -Original Message- From: Alexandre Gorbatchev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 4:23 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Prod. DBA tends to be more responsible. App. DBA tends to be more creative. But could be both 8=) and the best are. -- Alexandre -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Alexandre Gorbatchev INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: John Weatherman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mail ing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Now see... as one new to the world of Apps DBA, I looked at her list, and realized that it was the other kind of applications... not Oracle Applications although from my experience network support, client support, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker (mostly because you WANT coffee, and are there before and/or after everyone else), consumer of various liquids... apply across the board. I also think... Ron... that being an apps dba requires not only a dedicated and investigative mind set... but a warped mindset... one in need of serious analysis... is required of apps dba. There is no other animal QUITE like Oracle Applications... it kind of reminds me of the dragon from Homer... the one that grew extra heads when you cut one off... but this one seems to know when you are thinking of cutting off a head, and it grows 10 more just to SHOW you who is boss, and teach you for thinking about doing anything to it! ajw -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:48 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mail ing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mail ing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
ron, I've usually seen the term Apps DBA for the DBA who deals with Oracle Applications. As for using development dba vs application dba I was using the terminology of the original poster. My feeling is, separating these functions just adds to overhead and disconnect in solving problems... more places to point fingers and say it wasn't me, it was fill in the name's problem Rachel --- Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mail ing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Thanks to all who responded. The debate on the list is just as lively as the one around the water cooler. I did like the response about a 50% pay differential for production DBAs. That will make the bosses hair stand on end! --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
all it takes is one bad developer (commonly referred to as a duhveloper) to spark the flames remember, dilbert makes its money on the BAD side of software development, there is no humor (and in our cases, no angst) when the people do the jobs they are supposed, on time and properly. In my own case, I would say that 95% of the developers I have worked with have been really good at what they do, involved and interested enough to learn something about how Oracle works under the covers and not just how to code SQL. And yes, I started as a developer, although I've never been an Oracle developer. But that 5% makes for some REALLY good war stories :) --- Jay Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Jay Yes, many of us were developers and for awhile you have the illusion that they should accept you because you are one of them. Eventually you realize the relationship isn't that simple at all. The problems usually come from perspective, interests, and priorities. Many senior developers have an interest in learning about the database and I trust them to perform many tasks. Other developers have little interest in the database and I am constantly worried about ensuring they can't damage the database. As a production DBA, you must have a system-wide perspective, and many developers just think about their program as if it ran on a single-user PC. Some of their tuning may affect the system performance adversely, like not using bind variables. And lastly, their priority is getting their program completed and running as quickly as possible while your priority is keeping the database running. Therefore you should respond to their request as quickly as possible to meet their deadline. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Actually some of the worst DBA's come from the development track. IMHO, the best DBAs are from the systems world :). Of course this doesn't mean all systems ppl make good dba's or all developers make bad dba's. This is only from my experience. Gene *Let the Wars begin, NOT* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/30/02 11:08AM I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
I guess it's that old Russian proverb To a hammer, all the world looks like a nail. Developers have experience as hammers and everything revolves around the code. As an ex-developer, now DBA, I know that sometimes you need a screwdriver (or a Harvey Wall Banger). Jay Wade fish_dbaTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L @hotmail.com[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: rootcc: Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? 05/30/2002 11:08 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Beware of developers that carry screwdrivers. Its a hardware problem, not software. -- Alan Davey [EMAIL PROTECTED] 212-604-0200 x106 On 5/30/02, Thomas Day [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess it's that old Russian proverb To a hammer, all the world looks like a nail. Developers have experience as hammers and everything revolves around the code. As an ex-developer, now DBA, I know that sometimes you need a screwdriver (or a Harvey Wall Banger). Jay Wade fish_dbaTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L @hotmail.com[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: rootcc: Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? 05/30/2002 11:08 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
I'd take that pay differential thing with a grain of salt. The definitions for Production DBA's, Apps, DBA's, and Development DBA's are merely organizational interpretations. Each organization custom creates these titles so PHB's can put labels on people. In many cases a production DBA is merely a database babysitter and a Development/Apps DBA requires higher skills for the overall architecture. In other cases an apps DBA may just be someone who knows how to maintain a particular 3rd party application but their knowledge of the database engine is suspect. I once knew an HR Database Administrator, AKA Apps DBA, who knew nothing about databases but lots about some weird, off the wall, non-mainstream, proprietary HR application. This person's skills were not marketable but their title was. ;-) Aspiring chief cook and bottle washer, Steve Orr -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:06 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Thanks to all who responded. The debate on the list is just as lively as the one around the water cooler. I did like the response about a 50% pay differential for production DBAs. That will make the bosses hair stand on end! --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Gene - C'mon ya gotta give us more details. I have heard that most DBAs either come from developers or sys admins, but I can't recall a former sys admin, or maybe they just didn't mention it. I am curious about your observations on the best and worst qualities of each variety. I feel that a former developer might make a better development DBA because he/she might understand things from the developer's perspective. I could see where it might take a developer turned production DBA awhile to understand a systems perspective. If the developer only created code on a PC, it might take awhile to really get a system-wide perspective (or never). Maybe you'll give me a better appreciation for my sys admin. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 11:11 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Actually some of the worst DBA's come from the development track. IMHO, the best DBAs are from the systems world :). Of course this doesn't mean all systems ppl make good dba's or all developers make bad dba's. This is only from my experience. Gene *Let the Wars begin, NOT* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/30/02 11:08AM I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
So true! Its different in each organization. Titles change but jobs do not :). [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/30/02 12:51PM I'd take that pay differential thing with a grain of salt. The definitions for Production DBA's, Apps, DBA's, and Development DBA's are merely organizational interpretations. Each organization custom creates these titles so PHB's can put labels on people. In many cases a production DBA is merely a database babysitter and a Development/Apps DBA requires higher skills for the overall architecture. In other cases an apps DBA may just be someone who knows how to maintain a particular 3rd party application but their knowledge of the database engine is suspect. I once knew an HR Database Administrator, AKA Apps DBA, who knew nothing about databases but lots about some weird, off the wall, non-mainstream, proprietary HR application. This person's skills were not marketable but their title was. ;-) Aspiring chief cook and bottle washer, Steve Orr -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:06 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Thanks to all who responded. The debate on the list is just as lively as the one around the water cooler. I did like the response about a 50% pay differential for production DBAs. That will make the bosses hair stand on end! --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gene Sais INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
A Harvey Wall Banger? I've never heard of that type of hammer before :) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 12:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I guess it's that old Russian proverb To a hammer, all the world looks like a nail. Developers have experience as hammers and everything revolves around the code. As an ex-developer, now DBA, I know that sometimes you need a screwdriver (or a Harvey Wall Banger). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Toepke, Kevin M INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
I know I'm probably going to regret replying to this thread. I'm one of those people who spent years as a programmer...and wound up somewhere in between applications and tech support because I couldn't get the tech support I needed. When we got SAP'd in '93, I finally gave in to becoming a so-called DBA to keep the legacy systems running (not Oracle based) AND keep the SAP project afloat. So I'm probably one of those SAP babysitters. I would love to be able to hire a development or applications DBA (we also have non-SAP Oracle databases) but the skill set I need in an individual to actually reduce my work load is much broader than the typical Oracle development or applications person. I know there can be exceptions, of course, but I haven't found development or applications people to be too concerned about the context in which a database lives let alone know what IT auditors would be looking for. I mean, the role I play doesn't seem to have any technical boundaries because, again, anything that can impact the application (be it SAN, OS, network, presentation layer, security, hardware, maybe even Sun spots...) is of concern to me. On the other hand, a DBA without an understanding of the demands put on developer/applications people is a problem, too. Or maybe I needed to whine a bit because I've been up at 2am and 5am a couple of days in a row. Sleepless in California, Kip Bryant |I'd take that pay differential thing with a grain of salt. |The definitions for Production DBA's, Apps, DBA's, and Development DBA's are |merely organizational interpretations. Each organization custom creates |these titles so PHB's can put labels on people. |In many cases a production DBA is merely a database babysitter and a |Development/Apps DBA requires higher skills for the overall architecture. In |other cases an apps DBA may just be someone who knows how to maintain a |particular 3rd party application but their knowledge of the database engine |is suspect. I once knew an HR Database Administrator, AKA Apps DBA, who |knew nothing about databases but lots about some weird, off the wall, |non-mainstream, proprietary HR application. This person's skills were not |marketable but their title was. ;-) |Aspiring chief cook and bottle washer, |Steve Orr |-Original Message- |Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:06 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |Thanks to all who responded. The debate on the list |is just as lively as the one around the water cooler. |I did like the response about a 50% pay differential |for production DBAs. That will make the bosses hair |stand on end! |--- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | We are having this debate. What is a 'Production | DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of | everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on | infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of | Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has | loosely translated this into the group that is | always | on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. | | I would appreciate some input from those of you who | are Production DBAs. | | | | = | Pete Barnett | Lead Database Administrator | The Regence Group | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com |-- |Author: Orr, Steve | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 |San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists | |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L |(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may |also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
There is a definite need for people with detailed knowledge of mission critical apps and it's optimal when DBA's and System Admins are wired in! the role I play doesn't seem to have any technical boundaries Boundaries are things that aggressive DBA's want to break through. They intrusively stick their noses into development, systems admin, networks, and applications. Why? Because it affects database performance. Since the database touches so much it only stands to reason that DBA's stretch and challenge the boundaries. Here's a link from Oracle Magazine that addresses this at some length. http://www.oracle.com/oramag/oracle/99-Mar/index.html?29cov.html Steve Orr Former Californian well rested in Montana -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 11:57 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I know I'm probably going to regret replying to this thread. I'm one of those people who spent years as a programmer...and wound up somewhere in between applications and tech support because I couldn't get the tech support I needed. When we got SAP'd in '93, I finally gave in to becoming a so-called DBA to keep the legacy systems running (not Oracle based) AND keep the SAP project afloat. So I'm probably one of those SAP babysitters. I would love to be able to hire a development or applications DBA (we also have non-SAP Oracle databases) but the skill set I need in an individual to actually reduce my work load is much broader than the typical Oracle development or applications person. I know there can be exceptions, of course, but I haven't found development or applications people to be too concerned about the context in which a database lives let alone know what IT auditors would be looking for. I mean, the role I play doesn't seem to have any technical boundaries because, again, anything that can impact the application (be it SAN, OS, network, presentation layer, security, hardware, maybe even Sun spots...) is of concern to me. On the other hand, a DBA without an understanding of the demands put on developer/applications people is a problem, too. Or maybe I needed to whine a bit because I've been up at 2am and 5am a couple of days in a row. Sleepless in California, Kip Bryant |I'd take that pay differential thing with a grain of salt. |The definitions for Production DBA's, Apps, DBA's, and Development DBA's are |merely organizational interpretations. Each organization custom creates |these titles so PHB's can put labels on people. |In many cases a production DBA is merely a database babysitter and a |Development/Apps DBA requires higher skills for the overall architecture. In |other cases an apps DBA may just be someone who knows how to maintain a |particular 3rd party application but their knowledge of the database engine |is suspect. I once knew an HR Database Administrator, AKA Apps DBA, who |knew nothing about databases but lots about some weird, off the wall, |non-mainstream, proprietary HR application. This person's skills were not |marketable but their title was. ;-) |Aspiring chief cook and bottle washer, |Steve Orr -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Hello Dennis My path: Computer operator, duveloper, system programmer, DBA. About developers: they do not see the whole picture, do not understand limitations etc.. I had a call from the guy who is charge of a project. The database creates about 10 MB of archive logs every 3-4 minutes, and is on remote site. He come over to discuss the possibility of implementing a stand by database at our main site. When I asked him the bank width to the remote site he told me: fast, 256KBps. A simple calculation was enough to explain to him that he creates much more data then the pipe line can carry. Boy was he suprised. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 6:51 PM Gene - C'mon ya gotta give us more details. I have heard that most DBAs either come from developers or sys admins, but I can't recall a former sys admin, or maybe they just didn't mention it. I am curious about your observations on the best and worst qualities of each variety. I feel that a former developer might make a better development DBA because he/she might understand things from the developer's perspective. I could see where it might take a developer turned production DBA awhile to understand a systems perspective. If the developer only created code on a PC, it might take awhile to really get a system-wide perspective (or never). Maybe you'll give me a better appreciation for my sys admin. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 11:11 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Actually some of the worst DBA's come from the development track. IMHO, the best DBAs are from the systems world :). Of course this doesn't mean all systems ppl make good dba's or all developers make bad dba's. This is only from my experience. Gene *Let the Wars begin, NOT* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/30/02 11:08AM I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware evaluation, whipping post, IT team member (possibly team leader), self driven, office coffee maker, consumer of various liquids. Ron ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/29/02 04:50PM that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
I really did not want to add to this thread, just a few points. Not all DBA's from development are bad, actually I worked w/ one from this list who was very good. I just find DBA's w/ a systems background (i.e. networks, unix admin, vms admin, firewalls, etc.) can manage many databases from a systems perspective (the big picture) whereas most developers see a much smaller world. I have worked my way from c/assembler development vms sys mgr unix sys admin sap basis oracle dba jack of all trades. I never did the oracle development track and am quite impressed w/ some of the listers here who provide sql and pl/sql code. Guess, what I am trying to say is that the DBA job crosses many boundaries. Where they cross depends on your organization and size. There are a lot of yehaaaw developers out there who want to be DBA's, but ask them for a traceroute and huh :). Gene [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/30/02 02:38PM Hello Dennis My path: Computer operator, duveloper, system programmer, DBA. About developers: they do not see the whole picture, do not understand limitations etc.. I had a call from the guy who is charge of a project. The database creates about 10 MB of archive logs every 3-4 minutes, and is on remote site. He come over to discuss the possibility of implementing a stand by database at our main site. When I asked him the bank width to the remote site he told me: fast, 256KBps. A simple calculation was enough to explain to him that he creates much more data then the pipe line can carry. Boy was he suprised. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 6:51 PM Gene - C'mon ya gotta give us more details. I have heard that most DBAs either come from developers or sys admins, but I can't recall a former sys admin, or maybe they just didn't mention it. I am curious about your observations on the best and worst qualities of each variety. I feel that a former developer might make a better development DBA because he/she might understand things from the developer's perspective. I could see where it might take a developer turned production DBA awhile to understand a systems perspective. If the developer only created code on a PC, it might take awhile to really get a system-wide perspective (or never). Maybe you'll give me a better appreciation for my sys admin. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 11:11 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Actually some of the worst DBA's come from the development track. IMHO, the best DBAs are from the systems world :). Of course this doesn't mean all systems ppl make good dba's or all developers make bad dba's. This is only from my experience. Gene *Let the Wars begin, NOT* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/30/02 11:08AM I feel that it is hard to draw the lines between Application and Production DBA's. For example where would you place the DBA that maintains SAP? Without the application knowledge he/she/it wouldn't get very far. Also I have been wondering something and this thread seems a good place to ask. Is there a historical feud between DBA's and Developers? Coming from a consulting/software house I find some of the comments funny but can't believe that there is that quantity of bad developers. Most of the DBA's we deal with have come up through the ranks and started as developers. From: Ron Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 04:48:29 -0800 Rachel, I agree with your short list of the areas of responsibilities but I would change the word application to development. An application DBA, from the people I have talked to, is quite busy performing the upgrades and patches that accompany the Oracle Applications. The applications database generally has many, many tables, triggers and constraints and is constantly the target for upgrades and patches from Oracle. It is a time consuming task as the majority of the different applications (financial, HR, Purchase Order, etc) have hooks into each different package and are so intertwined that any small fix in one involves patches for the others. There are only a few user defined tables as each package has their own named tables that are partially shared between packages. There is very little if any work you can do on the application code because it is so intertwined and customized when it is installed. Any upgrades require that the customization be reworked to make it fit into the new version of the application package. It takes a longer time to install than a standard database, on the magnitude of days, and requires a dedicated and investigative mind set to maintain. To the list you created I would add: Help desk call recipient, network support, client support, software and hardware
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
To me production and application DBA's are one and the same. They support those applications that are currently in production. My $0.02 worth, Ken Janusz, CPIM - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:20 PM We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: KENNETH JANUSZ INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Title: RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? Pete, In that case, Production DBAs are the people getting paid 1.5 times as much as Applications DBAs. Jerry Whittle ACIFICS DBA NCI Information Systems Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 618-622-4145 -Original Message- From: Peter Barnett [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
that's not a bad definition :) seriously, everyone will have their own definition, mine is: production dba -- responsible for all databases that are considered production. this includes but is not limited to: backups recovery testing contingency testing production performance tuning (should mostly be database tuning as SQL really should be tuned at the development stage, with information passed back from the production DBA) documentation of all procedures space management on production systems, including capacity planning and projection of growth change management monitoring external data loads into production database health checks on production database application dba -- responsible for all databases in which developers have access. responsibilities: SQL tuning (not SQL coding!) database design, in conjunction with the developers any and all changes to the application schema working with the production DBA to ensure production performance (see SQL tuning!) backups (these might be weekly offline backups, as development is usually less critical but then again maybe not) as deadlines creep closer, the weekends off may not be this is just the short list I've usually been both the production and application dba where I've worked. Rachel --- Peter Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
I had always thought that you could draw a line: All activities Before Implementation are the pervue of the Development DBA. (Including all the database design, development, layout, etc. work) All activities After Implementation are the pervue of the Production DBA. (Including all the day to day tuning, administering, background work, etc.) But in reality, it rarely is that cut and dried. I would call the designations work priorities. During normal work conditions everyone works on whatever is neccessary. But, when conditions arise dealing with your work priority, you drop what you are doing to give top priority to that condition. Kevin -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L To me production and application DBA's are one and the same. They support those applications that are currently in production. My $0.02 worth, Ken Janusz, CPIM - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:20 PM We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: KENNETH JANUSZ INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Lange INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
Production DBA 1. Take care of Production Databases 2. Fend Of user and developer questions with certain expertise so as to minimize additional work. 3. Expertly browse Metaslink (or any other site, just call it a beta interface to New Metalink). 4. Perform task #1 for all databases in the organization, after all a database is a database. Developer DBA An extinct species in this world of cost-cutting, money saving bean counters. Frankly, we do not have a distinction, we are just DBAs. This message is encrypted using double-ROT13 encryption, if you are reading this, you are in violation of DCMA. (The above tagline is stolen and will be used, until I make a clever one for myself.) Raj __ Rajendra Jamadagni MIS, ESPN Inc. Rajendra dot Jamadagni at ESPN dot com Any opinion expressed here is personal and doesn't reflect that of ESPN Inc. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, but having an opinion is an art! ***1 This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify ESPN at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you. ***1
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
A company here in Portland separates their DBA staff into Production Support and Application DBA groups. The production DBAs are concerned with infrastructure, hardware, backups, database upgrades and everything else that is (more or less) independent of the software application. The application DBAs are specialists on the data model and the software package using the database. They perform tuning and first line developer/user support. The model does not appear to be very effective. I certainly would not recommend it. Kevin Kennedy First Point Energy Corporation -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: kkennedy INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
We split it up into Production and Development DBAs. Theoretically a DBA should be full-function; however, the way the contracts are set up the functions are divided. Production DBAs work with existing, in-production instances and databases, tuning, security, backup and restore, user management. Development DBAs work with designing and implementing new systems or with enhancements and fixes to existing systems. Development DBAs work more closely with developers, write more PL/SQL and generally get to go home on weekends and sleep through the night (unless a system or change is being implemented --- in which case their butt is on the line). I'm sure that there are several good white papers out there somewhere but, since it's 4:30 and I'm a development DBA, I'm outta here --- and that's the real definition. Peter Barnett regdba To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L @yahoo.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: rootcc: Subject: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? 05/29/2002 04:20 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thomas Day INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: So, What is a 'Production DBA'?
First, a production dba is who and not what (except on St. Patrick's day, but that's another story) Second, a production DBA - Constantly monitors the database for performance - Shuts the database down and starts it up during the scheduled downtime events. - reviews audit trail and provides daily security report. - grants/ revokes access - allocates additional space to the database - Communicates with the Oracle Corp. and opens TARs, orders software - evaluates and installs any patches and patchsets. - provides weekly and monthly reports about the disk space consumption which say how much space is left and who consumes how much disk space - Is the first contact for any production database problem. He or she will be the most frequently called person in the company, without the need to win Mr. or Miss Popularity contest. - Keeps the log of all DBA activities pertaining to the production environment. - Keeps constantly in touch with Mr. Simon Trevaglia for best practices and makes sure that his/hers BDBAFH skills are regularly updated. -Original Message- From: Peter Barnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 4:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: So, What is a 'Production DBA'? We are having this debate. What is a 'Production DBA'? Right now all of the DBAs do some of everything. In an effort to focus more DBA time on infrastructure, damagement is floating the idea of Production and Applications DBAs. The DBA group has loosely translated this into the group that is always on-call and the group that gets their weekends off. I would appreciate some input from those of you who are Production DBAs. = Pete Barnett Lead Database Administrator The Regence Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter Barnett INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
