[OGD] Pk seedlings
Peter, I agree that illegal mature Pk are being traded all over the world. However, what Glenn and I are offering for sale are Pk seedlings with a leaf span of less than 10 cm and yes, these are from legal flasks germinated more than three years ago,2003, by Alfredo Manrique in his legal Pk laboratory. We both supply legal Pk certificates with every sale, duplicate copies of which are returned to Alfredo Manrique in Lima for INRENA, the Peruvian CITES Authority. Peter who said: >Amazing how quickly they grow (er ... from flask), isn't it ? ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk seedlings
Sure do love a tennis match. Back and forth, back and forth . 'Quoth' the Raven, "Evermore" . back and forth. The only trouble is that we will never get to any 'Pk' point - not even hoping for set or match. Maybe we should call this the Pk Whimp-le-ton. Seems to me a lot like the Libby trial -- a very important question but those who really know what is going on just ain't talking while others can only speculate. Maybe it is time to go back to CITES. Let's try for something really juicy to speculate on: Will the US/EU CITES Police once again blow it like they did at one of the Redlands International Orchid Festivals a few years ago (French grower - don't remember which of the 'Family' it was) or will they exercise wisdom and cut the WOC some slack? Las Vegas - will you offer odds? Betters - go for stupidity and bureaucracy. That 'other' Jerry Fis(c)her identified the problem(s)(Orchids Digest, Vol 9, Issue 88) and nobody from AOS nor the Miami WOC has replied about how they are working with "Authority" to have things go smoothly - or even rationally: "The problem really is that if a person from the EU wants to purchase plants at the 19thWOC they have to have an import permit in advance from their countries management authority. This means they have to know exactly what they want to purchase well in advance of the WOC. ... Many other countries also require import permits and this all takes time. It is truly time for CITES reform regarding (ORCHID-my add) plants and I will shortly begin posting on this forum (and others) proposals as to how CITES could change to accommodate trade in truly art-prop material. I will be looking for feedback and if growers approve of these ideas I will ask for a statement of support. I will then begin to take this material to CITES officials in the US and Switzerland to see if change can occur." Don't like CITES? MAYBE WE CAN WE CONSIDER SOMETHING FOR WHICH I HAVE A DEEP PASSION (and something that can be accommodated by local/WOC societies - something over which they do have direct control): 1. Will all orchid shows (especially the WOC) set aside a special time for photographers - you know those guys and gals with tripods? Recently 'Rf WOC Bob' got right back on CITES but I have seen nothing on my comment on WOC and photographers dated 2 March 2007 Orchids Digest, Vol 9, Issue 82. 2. Will all orchid shows allow someone other than 'THE AOS chosen - FILM CAMERA - one' to take quality pictures of AOS awarded plants while they are being photographed for award record? I only write for myself but I would be perfectly resigned/willing to do so at 02:00 if that was the only time available. 3. When will the AOS recognize Digital Photography? Maybe they are reluctant to do so because it seems to me that their magazine 'frequently' has 'juiced' pictures. While I am on the soap box - but it is actually related. I ask that judges do the best they can to judge the quality of the photograph rather than the orchid. I was once told by a judge that my picture was not selected for a ribbon because the orchid I had selected to photograph was not of award quality. Maybe he was being kind but I don't think so - it WAS a lousy blossom but a very good PhotoShop pastel rendering worthy of an 'artistic' ribbon. I later sold the picture for US$50.00. PAX - but I fear not of my time. Jerry in IN ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk seedlings and plants
Dear Folks, what Peter Croezen has been saying is fully correct. Seedlings of Phragmipedium in flasks (= in vitro) are legal, no matter where the parents come from, no matter where, by whom and from whom they were purchased or obtained. They can be marketed without restriction in any given country and from any given country to any other given country, at any time. CITES simply does not apply (and Peter has given you the text to prove it). Thus the paper signed by Jerry Fischer or anyone else agreeing to hold the seedlings for "x" time is worthless, meaningless etc. (and I want to see anyone spend money enforcing a worthless piece of paper). Of course mature plants are in the USA and in Europe. However, the great numbers that have been said to have reached Europe in the past are wrong. Of course I will not disclose any details, but there are "some" adult plants in various countries in Europe (as there are in the USA and Canada). The "release" of the seedlings with the INRENA papers is good and amusing. Good because now anyone can have his seedlings surface without having to admit that he/she has/had adult plants. And I would think that this will happen within the next 2 years. Amusing because the price will of course go tumbling down. The story of the besseae plants will repeat itself ... I remember the first plants of besseae coming into Germany and being sold for 2500 DM, then they soon went down to 250 DM and lower. And I am very curious when the first hybrids will show up .. And lets see who will have them surface. Jerry Fischer wrote: I think the best way the kovachii problem can be resolved is if all of the plants are tracked for 6 or 7 years. That is already impossible as there is no way to trace the adult plants that are now in the various countries and that are, of course illegal. No one will admit to having any of those and thus, the fairy tail of tracking all plants for a number of years is an illusion. Furthermore, I don't know too many commercial growers who are willing to disclose the source of their plants. And why should they? All seedlings obtained in vitro are legal . It suffices to get one flask with a receipt, wait long enough and you have legal flowering plants. As long as you can claim that they are from the flask, you can sell them legally in your country What is the moral of the story: You can't keep any plant off the market with any law, regulation, agreement, or whatever. regards Guido -- Prof. Dr. Guido J. Braem Naunheimer Str. 17 35633 Lahnau Deutschland/Germany ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk seedlings in vitro - restriction?
Dear Keith, please re-read the passage of the CITES regulations Peter (Croezen) posted on this forum. Please point out to us where it says that seedlings in vitro produced from "illegal" parents would not be freely tradable. Although I admit, that English is not my native tongue, I like to believe that my knowledge on the English language is sufficient to be able to note that no such restriction was sighted by me ... but maybe your eyesight is better than mine. regards Guido Prof. Dr. Guido J. Braem Naunheimer Str. 17 35633 Lahnau Deutschland/Germany ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk seedlings are easy to grow.
Bill,
Concerning your post "Kovachii" I take it you
mean Phragmipedium kovachii, (note small letter k) commonly referred to as Pk on
public forums.
You speak of Pk seedlings "being impossible to
grow." I totally disagree One very experienced Phrag
grower/exhibitor/vendor tells me that in his experience, Pk seedlings are
easier to grow than Phrag besseae seedlings.
I base my disagreement with your post on my
personal experience and the experience of others as posted for some time now
on public forums . Yes there are some who have problems, but then there are
some who have problems with Phal. seedlings as well.
I feel sorry that you had a bad personal
experience, which may be due to one or more of many factors which you fail to
disclose. The biggest part of your problem may be "too high temperatures for in
flask seedlings" plus "from whom and when," you purchased the Pk flask and not
having been told a few basic rules to follow. You can truly not generalize from
that experience
You certainly can not speak for "anyone growing
them," which I take to mean "everyone growing them."
You can not speak for me, or the many Pk
seedling owners who are growing them successfully in many countries
all over the world; some of whom I know personally.
I think you are doing the vendors and indeed the
average Phrag growers a disservice with your post.
Pk seedlings, legally propagated in the
laboratories of CJM (Centro de Jardineria Manrique)are easy to
grow!
When in flask, you have to keep the temperatures in
mid to high sixties, for growing them warmer appears to produce toxins perhaps
(no proof) causing the leaves to turn yellow. CJM Pk flasks, kept
at 65 to 70 F, do not have this yellowing problem.
Pk seedlings can be compotted at a very early stage
and do well, even at higher temperatures than my own recommended
Intermediate temps {The plants naturally grow at 1900 meters above sea
level (6235 feet)}.
In my compots, Pk seedlings stay a healthy
green at temperatures around 65F and grow well. I also have some compots
at 80F, occasionally reaching 90 and 95F. These stay a healthy green but
grow slower than those at the lower temps.
My compotted Pk seedlings range in size from
1/2 to 3 inches. Even the 1/4 inch size Pk seedlings are
surviving and growing in NZ sphagnum moss. You must follow a few basic culture
rules for this species, but isn't that true for many orchid
species?
Bill, contrary to what you predict will happen,
I vision Pk species and hybrids on the benches of every Phrag
loving grower in the world, except those who consider big flowers ugly, as
one of my friends does.
When you say Silva, you probably mean well known
Peruvian orchid collector Manuel Arias Silva, who is not connected with CJM at
all.
To anyone contemplating purchasing legal Pk
seedlings, I guarantee that the CJM Pk seedlings are true Pk and easy
to grow when you follow a few basic steps.
Peter
___
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