[OGD] kovachii / Falmouth, Massachusetts (US)
in OGD V9 #25, viateur provided us with this media clipping: Glen Decker is not only a vendor and a member of the society, but he is an adventurer who brought a rare orchid out of a jungle in Peru. He is cultivating it in greenhouses in California and Hawaii. It is called kovachii for short. He will give a talk on that adventure which will include excellent pictures. That is well within the time-frame that I predicted. The flood has started. By the end of this year you won't be able to move at an Orchid Show without knocking over a P. kovachii. Amazing how quickly they grow (er ... from flask), isn't it ? Peter O'Byrne ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] kovachii seedlings
The problem with seedlings is that you cannot be 100 % certain that they are that what is written on the lable until they flower. We have known the case of the sanderianum seedlings that came from The Orchid Zone, and proved to be Prince Edward of York. We know of the thousands of P. Pinochio sold as P. primulinum. We know that zillions of primary hybrids have been sold as species, etc. Thus, why don't we all just wait and see. Hear my words: once the so-called legal seedlings will be out, they will have a miraculous proliferation in numbers ... and they will be crawling out of just about any horticultural whole. (Don't forget, there were, and are people that claim to be able to change water into wine). In two to five years, the kovachii story, will have settled down to what it is: a farce. Trying to compute the number of seedpods that may have possibly been made is futile. And just a few words on laboratories. Laboartories must not necessarily be at the grower in question. I am sure most of you know what outsourcing is. My friend up north also was accused of not having a laboratory and thus, the stupid CITES people, + Cribb + De Vogel accused him of not propagating plants, and they claimed that his could not be a producing business. If they would have asked, they would have had evidence from at least tree labs where the seedlings were produced for him. Those who want a grown plant of kovachii now, are able to get it. In our molecular biology study published in France, we used material of two different adult plants of P. kovachii (Chiron, Chiron Braem; Richardiana, VI(4): 206-216). Only the first wave of seedlings will fetch good prices. When they come, Viateur will surely find a way of informing us. Prof. Guido Braem ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re: [OGD] kovachii
The accusation that the kovachii seedlings from Peruflora are possibly not kovachii was once again made in OGD 8(348) in the letter Richard Orr posted from the Moore's and reinforced by Peter Croezen in OGD 8(349). As an observer, I want to know if anyone has any proof or even any reasonably sound evidence that the Peruflora Pk are not what they were sold as? So far all I have heard is hearsay and innuendo (e.g., a friend of a friend who visited the greenhouse told me...). I get the feeling this is one of those situations where the truth of the plants' origin won't be known for certain until the fastest growing seedlings start blooming. Although only 5 plants were legally collected by each nursery, each plant probably had 10+ mature growths. Some of the collected plants were undoubtedly in bud or bloom (as evidenced by their display in bloom at an orchid show in late 2003 and the Koopowitz article in the Oct/Dec 2003 OD article). Phrag. kovachii spikes typically carry 1-3 blooms. In three years' time, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that at least 50-100 seedpods could be produced. And a quick question: Does anyone know how many Peruvian nurseries have been authorized to collect 5 plants each of Phrag. kovachii? Is there a list somewhere on the INRENA site? I don't read Spanish, so I can't tell. Thanks, --Stephen -- Stephen Manza [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.slipperorchids.info ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re: [OGD] kovachii
I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about. It is apparent to me that Peter, in Canada and vendor for one Peruvian source (CJM), has said he will not sell Pk seedlings until they are compot size. Barbara's source is apparently Jerry Fischer and Chuck Acker, who purchased their Pk flasks from the other Peruvian source (PeruFlora), who, I understand, made them sign an agreement to not sell their seedlings prior to a certain time, whereas CJM made no such requirement. So speaking as an outsider to the discourse below, here are my observations: --I don't see any inuendoes in Peter's postings -- he is up-front in what he says. Peter is not yet selling Pk, but he is taking pre- orders as are the US vendors of PeruFlora plants. --Barbara seems to be saying that no one should be selling Pk flasks yet. Since she is in the US, and I know of only one place that is currently selling them, she must be talking about Piping Rock Orchids. Note that Piping Rock is selling flasks, not Pk seedlings out of flask as yet. --I suspect were it not for the agreement signed, Orchids Limited and Chuck Ackers would also be selling their Pk now. I could, of course, be wrong. --Unlike Barbara, I have no problem with Piping Rock selling their Pk flasks and hybrid seedlings now. I purchased my Pk flask from Piping Rock Orchids, whose Peruvian source is also CJM. The seedlings in my flask were beginning to touch the top of the flask when I put them into compot, where they were doing fine until I made a mistake and sprayed them with Physan. I lost a few, but the others seem to be recovering. (I'm keeping my fingers crossed.) I'm also finding they prefer temperatures cooler than 72-73ºF, which has been difficult for me to achieve this summer. Speaking for myself only, I am happy that I purchased a Pk flask. While it is true that there is little information about the specifics of growing them, I'm glad to be part of the experiment. Time will tell whether any rumors are true about whether any Pk flasks/seedlings are actually not Pk. The US players here, the Fischers, Chuck Ackers, Glen Decker... are all excellent growers. I think they all know that honesty is the best policy. There is too much at stake to be otherwise. Cover-ups usually don't work in the long term. Dot ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re: [OGD] Kovachii seedlings
I've seen pictures of other Pk hybrids available at Piping Rock, and the hybrids seemsto be growing as Jerry says. Glen says the species itself is a bit smaller (you'd have to look at his web page to see his actual quote), but the hybrids looked good.Maybethey areonly hard in a mixed greenhouse, attention to detail being what it is. *G*YMMV, K Barrett N Calif, USA IhavebeengrowingkovachiisinceAprilof05andIhaveanumberof plantsinthe8to9inchrangeand5-7inchrangeaswellasa numberofsmallerones.Thecrossthatseemsmostvigoroustomeis the'Jewel'x'Roseline'sib.Othersibsareslowerandfewerin number.ThehybridsIhavebetweenschlimii,longifolium,walisiiand dealesandroi(besseae)allseemtogrowwellwithgoodvigor.The wallisiihybridhasbroadstrongleaves.Ihaveimportedkovachii twice.Oncein05andonceinMayofthisyear. Happygrowing,JerryLeeFischerOrchidsLimitedwww.orchidweb.com Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search Try it now! ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Kovachii
I notice a definite shot at the blurring between commercial propagation conservation of the species. History shows that without question the best form of conservation is to grow more of anything commercially. All those growing Pk stand tall be proud. You deserve all the success you get. Only you have taken the commercial risk to grow a plant there is no data about. with it comes a significant conservation benefit that no other do gooder has been able to equal. Further, there are many more than 10 legal plants in cultivation. Remember please, not all countries have the crazy laws that the U.S.A. has. I am aware that a number Pk have been legally exported to other countries before Pk was described also since. Murray Shergold Easy Orchids Australia ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re: [OGD] Kovachii...
Please clear up a few things for me and the OGD audience: 1) Where in my post do I try to slime the opposition? Please explain!. 2) Who is it you went to that says to know the true story, different from mine, of what went on in Peru? 3) What is the true story Barbara? You seem to insinuate that you know it, but that I do not. 4) I challenge you to point out which Pk saga facts I do not have straight. Barbara, you have said A by publicly and falsely accusing me, I expect you have the guts to say B. In my experience with Pk seedlings and the experience of my Peruvian friends, the 12 inch leaf span Pk seedling you have seen is more likely to have come from an illegal flasks propagated in 2001-2002 than from legal Pk flask started in 2003. Many illegal Pk plant owners are known to have purchased one legal flask to hide their illegal ones behind. These include very well known orchid nurseries world wide. I will not flame you because you falsely accuse me on a public forum. All I ask is that you back up your accusations with facts. Peter Peter, Peter you still don't get it. You and your rumors... and likely this and that. That is what I am objecting to. Your insinuations are slimey and unfounded. The 12-inch leafspan seedling I referred to is sitting on Chuck Acker's bench. Want to see a picture? Here it is: http://phragflasks.com/images/image_pages/kovachii%20front%20runner.htm It came out of a flask he hand carried back here in 2005, the First flasks to come to the US legally. I think what you have is a case of sour grapes. You can't get them to grow any faster and you can't believe that anyone else can either. Well, Chuck is THE PHRAGMASTER and I would expect nothing less than healthy, thriving plants from him, and that is what I laid eyes on. The problem people are having with Pk flasks and seedlings relates to improperly grown flasks (too warm, maybe incorrect medium?), and the flasks being sold when the plants are too immature to be able to survive, much less thrive. I know of several people who have purchased flasks with plants of 1/2 leafspan that have died or which are suffering. THAT is not what I call conservation or preservation. People are in such a hurry to make a buck, and other people are shelling out good money, rare plants are dying and someone is laughing all the way to the bank. Wouldn't you rather get a healthy plant or compot that is actually ready to be sold? There... flame that! Barbara ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re: [OGD] kovachii
Hello to everyone on the forum, I have been growing kovachii since April of 05 and I have a number of plants in the 8 to 9 inch range and 5-7 inch range as well as a number of smaller ones. The cross that seems most vigorous to me is the 'Jewel' x 'Roseline' sib. Other sibs are slower and fewer in number. The hybrids I have between schlimii, longifolium, walisii and de alesandroi (besseae) all seem to grow well with good vigor. The wallisii hybrid has broad strong leaves. I have imported kovachii twice. Once in 05 and once in May of this year. Happy growing, Jerry Lee Fischer Orchids Limited www.orchidweb.com ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Kovachii
There have been hybrids made by legal sources in Peru..They do every bit as badly from flask as the species. Kovachii plants (seedlings) are impossible to grow as far as I or anyone growing them knows..3000 ft is still not good for growing Kovachii..That is a fact..buyer beware..this is not a species that will be common in cultivation..and, sorry to say, so far the hybrid with boissierianum is faring no better from flasks sent here by Silva...(not to me, by the way) So, for the moment, do not waste your money...Bill Bergstrom ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re: [OGD] Kovachii
Bill, Phrag kovachii is not that hard to grow. I have seen hundreds thriving and they are all larger than 3 leafspans. One has almost 12 wingspread. Their grower isn't doing anything different than most other phrags. So, please don't label Pk unfairly as difficult to grow. And Peter, Come on... Your unfounded insinuations are so obvious. We all know you sell CJM product. You have a vested interest in marketing CJM product. Back when you and I corresponded, I almost believed the stuff you were telling me. But I went to someone who knows what went on in Peru and got the true story. It irritates me no end that you try to slime your competition like you do. I know I am now a target for your flames, but I don't care. Make sure you have your facts STRAIGHT before you make your unfounded innuendos. When you say Silva, you probably mean well known Peruvian orchid collector Manuel Arias Silva, who is not connected with CJM at all. To anyone contemplating purchasing legal Pk seedlings, I guarantee that the CJM Pk seedlings are true Pk and easy to grow when you follow a few basic steps. Peter Barbara ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] kovachii sources
Steven,Your examples are for nurseries in the US, only. Alfredo Manrique also deals with Peter Croezen of Green Canyon Orchids in Canada. If you check his website, you will see that he has received kovachii seedlings, and is growing them up a bit before he feels comfortable to sell them.Dot From: "Stephen Manza" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OGD] kovachii sources There are two nurseries in Peru that have been granted permission by the Peruvian government to export Phrag kovachii: (1) Centro de Jardineria Manrique (Alfredo Manrique) - Dealing only with Fritz Schomburg at Tropical Propagations (handling the lab work) and Glen Decker at Piping Rock Orchids (seedlings and sales). They already have a sizable number of flasks in the states and should have seedlings for sale sometime around August. I bought a flask from Fritz and Glen at the NYIOS 10 days ago containing ~15 plantlets for $225. The plantlets are not yet large enough to be deflasked, so they are only being sold at the moment to those who can hand carry them. (2) Peruflora (Manuel and Monolo Arias) - Has sold flasks to a number of orchid growers, in the US and elsewhere. However, they forced whoever they sold to to sign a document promising not to sell the seedlings until March/April, 2007. They claim it is somehow associated with the INRENA officials in Peru, but it was basically a way to try and maintain a monopoly on kovachii flask sales. For a list of people who purchased flasks, you can check their website: http://www.peru-flora.com/news19.htm There are only two growers in the US that I know of currently selling kovachii from Peruflora. Orchids Limited is selling seedlings as what they call 'futures' at a massively inflated price. Their minimum for a single seedling is $225, with a non-refundable 50% deposit required at the time of order, to be shipped in March/April, 2007. Chuck Acker is selling kovachii seedlings in compots of 5 or 10 for $100/ seedling, with a non-refundable 50% deposit required at the time of order, to be shipped in March/April, 2007. [The difference between the deposits being that if Orchids Limited can't fill your order, you get store credit, whereas Chuck Acker will refund your money.] --Stephen ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] kovachii sources
There are two nurseries in Peru that have been granted permission by the Peruvian government to export Phrag kovachii: (1) Centro de Jardineria Manrique (Alfredo Manrique) - Dealing only with Fritz Schomburg at Tropical Propagations (handling the lab work) and Glen Decker at Piping Rock Orchids (seedlings and sales). They already have a sizable number of flasks in the states and should have seedlings for sale sometime around August. I bought a flask from Fritz and Glen at the NYIOS 10 days ago containing ~15 plantlets for $225. The plantlets are not yet large enough to be deflasked, so they are only being sold at the moment to those who can hand carry them. (2) Peruflora (Manuel and Monolo Arias) - Has sold flasks to a number of orchid growers, in the US and elsewhere. However, they forced whoever they sold to to sign a document promising not to sell the seedlings until March/April, 2007. They claim it is somehow associated with the INRENA officials in Peru, but it was basically a way to try and maintain a monopoly on kovachii flask sales. For a list of people who purchased flasks, you can check their website: http://www.peru-flora.com/news19.htm There are only two growers in the US that I know of currently selling kovachii from Peruflora. Orchids Limited is selling seedlings as what they call 'futures' at a massively inflated price. Their minimum for a single seedling is $225, with a non-refundable 50% deposit required at the time of order, to be shipped in March/April, 2007. Chuck Acker is selling kovachii seedlings in compots of 5 or 10 for $100/ seedling, with a non-refundable 50% deposit required at the time of order, to be shipped in March/April, 2007. [The difference between the deposits being that if Orchids Limited can't fill your order, you get store credit, whereas Chuck Acker will refund your money.] --Stephen ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] kovachii - queries
Jerry Lee Fischer wrote : We had to sign an agreement with INRENA that the seedlings [of Phragmipedium kovachii] would not be sold for 2 years. Is it possible to reproduce the seedlings (plants) by tissue culture before the end of the 2-year period ? If so, is there a provision in the agreement that would prevent you from doing that and selling the new seedlings ? Jerry also wrote : The seedlings are from Manolo Arias of Peru If Manolo (or is it Manola like Peter Croezen wrote in his post ? http://orchidguide.com/pipermail/orchids_orchidguide.com/2005-April/001933.html) is the son of Manuel Arias Silva, does he sell the seedlings because he owns part of his father's business, Orquídeas Peruanas, or is it for legal reasons related with the Arias/Norris affair ? *** Regards, Viateur ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re: [OGD] kovachii - queries
Steve, Are you referring to the technical ability, or the ability within the terms of the agreement? Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.comPlants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info! - Original Message - From: Steve Topletz To: the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [OGD] kovachii - queries Yes, it is possible.viateur Is it possible to reproduce the seedlings (plants) by tissue culture beforeviateur the end of the 2-year period ?___the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD)orchids@orchidguide.comhttp://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re[2]: [OGD] kovachii - queries
Technical ability only. As per the agreement, I am not aware one way or the other. ST Ray Steve, Ray Ray Are you referring to the technical ability, or the ability within the terms of the agreement? Ray Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Ray Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info! Ray Ray Ray - Original Message - Ray From: Steve Topletz Ray To:the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) Ray Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:16 PM Ray Subject: Re: [OGD] kovachii - queries Ray Yes, it is possible. viateur Is it possible to reproduce the seedlings (plants) by tissue culture before viateur the end of the 2-year period ? Ray ___ Ray the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) Ray orchids@orchidguide.com Ray http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Kovachii DNA
four plants of Phrag. kovachii were identical for each sequence analysed. I did not read the article, but it just means that the 4 sequences were identical. A sequence is just a part of the DNA strain, so differences might be located elsewhere on the strain Uri __ ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Kovachii flasks
The legal kovachii flask will be available this year, but there are some problems whit the Peruvian government so the Peruvian orchid club don't'a know how the kovachii flasks will be sell worldwide, the only confirmed information is that an orchid shop whit kovachii flasks will be open this year in Spain. -- Regards, Thomas from Guatemala. ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] kovachii and neofinetia
How far off are we from legal kovachii flasks or plants? And in the US? Also, how long to neofinetia take to bloom from flask? Steve Topletz ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] kovachii and Norris
Hello OGDers : In a press release, United States Attorney for the Southern District of Florida indicates : defendant, George Norris, a resident of Spring, Texas, was sentenced to seventeen (17) months' imprisonment and two (2) years of supervised release at a hearing in Miami, Florida, Federal District Court today in connection with a conspiracy to smuggle into the United States protected orchid specimens, including specimens of the genus Phragmipedium source : http://www.lawfuel.com/index.php?page=press_releaseshandler=focuspressreleaseid=1696category=return=list-publicationssortby=timestampscreen=1 I have heard, a couple of times at my orchid society, comments that Manuel Arias Silva was sentenced for exporting Phragmipedium kovachii. Did I miss something at some point or the species was never actually mentioned in the prosecution against Manuel Arias Silva nor George Norris ? Thanks in advance for straightening out the facts. Regards, Viateur ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids
