Re: [Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[gera...@neorigami.com]

In reply to Laura's message from earlier today.
I'm sorry for implying you had suggested a translation. Indeed, what you 
actually suggested was that I didn't need to translate its name when teaching 
it. I only meant, with my email from yesterday, that you believed the students 
could perfectly understand its association with a puzzle despite being from a 
single sheet. Sorry if that didn't come accross.

It was me who wanted to give it a name in Spanish and, although that wasn't 
your intention, your words did help me a bit to decide what to call it. Thank 
you for your original email as well as your clarification.


Speaking of Spanish, those who of you who speak that language as well. I invite 
you to the online group: Diálogos Origámicos. In the group, we talk about 
origami, share what we do, advertise activities and books, inform about our 
projects and events, show our folds and models, and participate in games and 
challenges. You can learn more about it here: https://dialogami.neorigami.com
--
Gerardo G.
gerardo(a)neorigami.com
 instagram.com/neorigamicomKnowledge and Curiosity in Origami:
six private classes online

"(...) It doesn’t happen often, but when it does, it takes your breath away and 
fills you with the true joy of origami. I experienced this in my lessons with 
Gerardo G. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Gerardo is (...)" C. R. Read the 
full review

Re: [Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[Laura R via Origami]

Gerardo, 
No, I did not suggest a translation. Quite the opposite. I said there is no 
need to translate everything. Leave names as they are and explain the model in 
your language. 
The following is what I said on July 2:
Why do you need to translate. Everybody knows what a puzzle is. You can say es 
un portamonedas que se arma como si fuera un puzzle pero solo necesitas un 
papel, no es modular. You just tell them what it is and they quickly figure 
out. No need to find the perfect translation because everything will leave you 
in the middle of something. 
Laura

> On Jul 30, 2023, at 12:09 AM, gera...@neorigami.com wrote:
> 
> At the begining of this month I had asked for help with the name of the 
> traditional model, puzzle purse, in Spanish and received a few replies. I 
> mentioned I was going to teach the model to a group of Spanish speakers, and 
> that if I didn't find a popular name, Laura Rozenberg's and Karen Reeds's 
> emails helped think of a translation of the name I was happy with.
> 
> So, I taught how to fold the model about a week ago and I wasn't able to find 
> popular name of the model in Spanish. I taught the model giving it the name 
> "bolsa rompecabezas". I want to explain to you why I chose that translation
> 
> "Purse" has different definitions. Although the first ones in the 
> Merriam-Webster dictionary are directly related to money, none of the 
> references to the model seem to mention banknotes or coins at all. I believe 
> the model relates instead to this other definition of the word: "a receptacle 
> (such as a pouch) shaped like a purse". Source: 
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purse 
> 
> 
> Continuing, Karen pointed to the book Repertorio Completo de Todos los Juegos 
> by Marco and Ochoa y Ronna (1896). That book calls it "bolsa". That word can 
> mean "bag", but it can also mean "pouch", just like the definition of "purse" 
> from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. I think in the minds of most 
> Spanish-speakers nowadays, we think first in plastic bags when we hear the 
> word "bolsa", but that model predates the invention of such bags.
> 
> Regarding the word "puzzle" I was hesitant to translate it as "rompecabezas", 
> since I believe the word in Spanish is limited to jigsaw puzzles. Yet, in her 
> email, Laura Rozenberg, mentioned how it would be easy to explain that the 
> model is a type of "rompecabezas" just that from the folding of a single 
> piece of paper. Aside from that, Karen Reeds revealed that the aforementioned 
> book places the model under the section "Rompecabezas". That section begins 
> with a parragraph explaining how the word is broadend in the book to include 
> "any type of game with a difficult solution" (pg. 706). So I guess I was 
> wrong, and "rompecabezas" is a proper translation of "puzzle" in this context.
> 
> And that is why I called, and propose the model to be called in Spanish, 
> "bolsa rompecabezas". Now, I think it's quite curious how the name "puzzle 
> PURSE" stuck, despite it seems to be mainly described nowadays as a very 
> creative type of Valentine's card from the past. Go figure .
> 
> --
> Gerardo G.
> gerardo(a)neorigami.com 
>  instagram.com/neorigamicom 
> Knowledge and Curiosity in Origami:
> six private classes online 
> 
> "(...) It doesn’t happen often, but when it does, it takes your breath away 
> and fills you with the true joy of origami. I experienced this in my lessons 
> with Gerardo G. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Gerardo is (...)" C. R. 
> Read the full review 
> 

Re: [Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[gera...@neorigami.com]

At the begining of this month I had asked for help with the name of the 
traditional model, puzzle purse, in Spanish and received a few replies. I 
mentioned I was going to teach the model to a group of Spanish speakers, and 
that if I didn't find a popular name, Laura Rozenberg's and Karen Reeds's 
emails helped think of a translation of the name I was happy with.
So, I taught how to fold the model about a week ago and I wasn't able to find 
popular name of the model in Spanish. I taught the model giving it the name 
"bolsa rompecabezas". I want to explain to you why I chose that translation
"Purse" has different definitions. Although the first ones in the 
Merriam-Webster dictionary are directly related to money, none of the 
references to the model seem to mention banknotes or coins at all. I believe 
the model relates instead to this other definition of the word: "a receptacle 
(such as a pouch) shaped like a purse". Source: 
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purse
Continuing, Karen pointed to the book Repertorio Completo de Todos los Juegos 
by Marco and Ochoa y Ronna (1896). That book calls it "bolsa". That word can 
mean "bag", but it can also mean "pouch", just like the definition of "purse" 
from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. I think in the minds of most 
Spanish-speakers nowadays, we think first in plastic bags when we hear the word 
"bolsa", but that model predates the invention of such bags.
Regarding the word "puzzle" I was hesitant to translate it as "rompecabezas", 
since I believe the word in Spanish is limited to jigsaw puzzles. Yet, in her 
email, Laura Rozenberg, mentioned how it would be easy to explain that the 
model is a type of "rompecabezas" just that from the folding of a single piece 
of paper. Aside from that, Karen Reeds revealed that the aforementioned book 
places the model under the section "Rompecabezas". That section begins with a 
parragraph explaining how the word is broadend in the book to include "any type 
of game with a difficult solution" (pg. 706). So I guess I was wrong, and 
"rompecabezas" is a proper translation of "puzzle" in this context.
And that is why I called, and propose the model to be called in Spanish, "bolsa 
rompecabezas". Now, I think it's quite curious how the name "puzzle PURSE" 
stuck, despite it seems to be mainly described nowadays as a very creative type 
of Valentine's card from the past. Go figure .
--
Gerardo G.
gerardo(a)neorigami.com
 instagram.com/neorigamicomKnowledge and Curiosity in Origami:
six private classes online

"(...) It doesn’t happen often, but when it does, it takes your breath away and 
fills you with the true joy of origami. I experienced this in my lessons with 
Gerardo G. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Gerardo is (...)" C. R. Read the 
full review

Re: [Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[David Mitchell via Origami]

Karen Reeds  wrote:

>You set us all a good example by carefully documenting the names/creators of 
>models as much as you can, but I have to agree with Dave's pessimistic 
>conclusion.

Pessimistic? Realistic, surely ...

It's perhaps worth pointing out that in The Public Paperfolding Project I have, 
of necessity, given every 'traditional' design (or at least every 'traditional' 
design that occurs several times in the literature) a standard name (or 
sometimes two standard names if it is, for instance, 'traditional'  in both 
Japan and Western Europe / The Americas). Of course, I chose these standard 
names myself, mostly in English but sometimes in other languages, but I hope 
that having a standard name for each design will make referring to them and 
talking about them easier.

Dave

[Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[Karen Reeds via Origami]

July 9, 2023
Hi, Gerardo

I admire your effort to pin down the right names for traditional origami
models, and I'm grateful for all that I learned as a result of your  puzzle
purse investigations.

But origami nomenclature is a lot like botanical nomenclature before Carl
Linnaeus published *Species Plantarum* in 1753 -- a mess! *

You set us all a good example by carefully documenting the names/creators
of models as much as you can, but I have to agree with Dave's pessimistic
conclusion.

Do tell us, please, what you chose to call the model for your class and how
they liked the model and name.

Best wishes,
Karen
*Karen Reeds and Isabelle Charmantier, "Botany" entry, *Brill's
Encyclopaedia of the Neo-Latin World: Micropaedia*, ed. Philip Ford, Jan
Bloemendal, and Charles Fantazzi (Leiden: Brill, 2014), 933-935.


Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 11:20:10 +
> From: David Mitchell 
> To: "origami@lists.digitalorigami.com"
>     
> Subject: [Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?


I think we must also be careful not to believe that' traditional' designs
> necessarily had a 'traditional' name.

'La bolsa', for instance, is a title (in Spanish) that only appears once
> (as far as we know) for a design that only appears once in a Spanish book
> (as far as we know, prior to 1970).

Many 'traditional' designs have multiple names in the literature, multiple
> names, that is, in the same language, not just in different languages.

So deciding what a design should properly be called is difficult, if not
> impossible ...


Dave

from Karen Reeds
karenmre...@gmail.com

[Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[David Mitchell via Origami]

gera...@neorigami.com wrote:

>I must confess I linked David's webpage but had not read it... oops

Bad boy!

I think we must also be careful not to believe that' traditional' designs 
necessarily had a 'traditional' name.

'La bolsa', for instance, is a title (in Spanish) that only appears once (as 
far as we know) for a design that only appears once in a Spanish book (as far 
as we know, prior to 1970).

Many 'traditional' designs have multiple names in the literature, multiple 
names, that is, in the same language, not just in different languages.

So deciding what a design should properly be called is difficult, if not 
impossible ...

Dave

Re: [Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[gera...@neorigami.com]

I had asked for help with the name in Spanish of the traditional model: puzzle 
purse. Both Laura Rozenberg and Karen Reeds replied. Laura suggested not 
translating the name, but instead explaining what it is and Karen referred to a 
book in Spanish, which is quoted by David Mitchell on the webpage I had linked. 
Thank you both!

It's an excellent idea to explain what the model is, but I must confess I have 
an obsession with model names... hahaha. I even wrote a long article about it, 
which was posted on The Fold. So, for example, it's important for me to write 
the name of the model and its creator on the folds I make and leave in the 
library for giving away, that also includes traditional models like this one.

And I must confess I linked David's webpage but had not read it... oops. The 
reference from that historic book to the model as "la bolsa" is very revealing. 
I decided to ask a couple of origami historians, which now Spanish, if they 
know about a popular name for the model in said language. If not, I think I can 
use Laura's and Karen's answers to propose a satistying version of the name in 
my first language.
--
Gerardo G.
gerardo(a)neorigami.com
 instagram.com/neorigamicomKnowledge and Curiosity in Origami:
six private classes online

"(...) It doesn’t happen often, but when it does, it takes your breath away and 
fills you with the true joy of origami. I experienced this in my lessons with 
Gerardo G. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Gerardo is (...)" C. R. Read the 
full review

[Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[Karen Reeds via Origami]

7/3/2023
Thank you very much, Gerardo, for the link to David Mitchell’s fascinating
Public Paperfolding History Project--Origami Heaven page about this Puzzle
Purse model (http://www.origamiheaven.com/historyofpuzzlepurses.htm).

Why not use the historical model name, “La Bolsa,” from the 1896 book,
*Repertorio
Completo de Todos los Juegos*, by de Luis Marco y Eugenio de Ochoa y Ronna,
as listed on David Mitchell's page (digitized facsimile:
http://bdh-rd.bne.es/viewer.vm?id=005049&page=1  part 3, page 826-827 =
image 833-834)?
You can always include a set of names in other languages, as David
Mitchell's page does. I think it would be interesting to share the La Bolsa
pages and see whether your students can fold the model from them.

If I am reading *Repertorio Completo de Todos los Juegos* (part 3, page 699
following) correctly, it uses the word Rompecabezas to refer to a variety
of brain-teaser puzzles,  not just jigsaw puzzles.

Thanks again and Happy folding!
Karen
cc; David Mitchell

PS As a historian of medicine, I'm struck by the model's use in China as a
"camphor-bag"  -- Origami Heaven's first example. While a mothball-holder
seems plausible, there were medicinal uses for camphor and, as this blog
post explains https://www.goya.in/blog/the-fascinating-story-of-camphor, it
can be used in tiny amounts in cooking for a subtle, distinctive
aroma/flavor.  I'm also grateful to  have learned about the Biblioteca
Digital Hispanica  http://bdh.bne.es/bnesearch/Inicio.do via OrigamiHeaven.

Karen Reeds, ringleader, Princeton Public Library Origami Group
karenmre...@gmail.com
Affiliate of Origami USA, http://origamiusa.org/
STILL ON PANDEMIC HIATUS
Princeton Public Library info:  609.924.9529
http://www.princetonlibrary.org/

Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 18:58:00 + (UTC)
From: "gera...@neorigami.com" 
To: Origami Lists Digitalorigami 
Subject: [Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?


HELLO
I plan to teach this model to Spanish speakers:
http://www.origamiheaven.com/historyofpuzzlepurses.htm
First of all, should I just call it "puzzle purse" in English? I see it
sometimes appears as "Valentine puzzle purse" and some others as "Victorian
puzzle purse". What do you suggest?
In regard to Spanish, have any of you seen any reference to this model?for
example, its diagrams?in a book in said language? How was the model called?
If not, those of you that also now Spanish, how would you translate it? I'd
say both the word "puzzle" and "purse" can be challenging to translate to
Spanish. There's no exact translation for the word "puzzle". "Rompecabezas"
means "jigsaw puzzle", but isn't appropriate for other types of puzzles,
like this purse. It's a similar situation with "purse"; the Spanish word
would depend on the type of "purse".
I'm inclined for "Cartera de ingenio", which would literally mean
"Ingenuity purse". That's as close as I got.

Thank you in advance. If you prefer, you can instead reply privately to my
email address: gerardo(a)neorigami.com
--
Gerardo G.
gerardo(a)neorigami.com
instagram.com/neorigamicomKnowledge and Curiosity in Origami:

from Karen Reeds
karenmre...@gmail.com

Re: [Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[Laura R via Origami]

Why do you need to translate. Everybody knows what a puzzle is. You can say es 
un portamonedas que se arma como si fuera un puzzle pero solo necesitas un 
papel, no es modular. You just tell them what it is and they quickly figure 
out. No need to find the perfect translation because everything will leave you 
in the middle of something. 

Actually, I make beautiful earrings out of this easy model. They must look 
perfect and made with the best washi.

Laura

> On Jul 2, 2023, at 3:58 PM, gera...@neorigami.com wrote:
> 
> HELLO
> 
> I plan to teach this model to Spanish speakers: 
> http://www.origamiheaven.com/historyofpuzzlepurses.htm 
> 
> 
> First of all, should I just call it "puzzle purse" in English? I see it 
> sometimes appears as "Valentine puzzle purse" and some others as "Victorian 
> puzzle purse". What do you suggest?
> 
> In regard to Spanish, have any of you seen any reference to this model–for 
> example, its diagrams–in a book in said language? How was the model called?
> 
> If not, those of you that also now Spanish, how would you translate it? I'd 
> say both the word "puzzle" and "purse" can be challenging to translate to 
> Spanish. There's no exact translation for the word "puzzle". "Rompecabezas" 
> means "jigsaw puzzle", but isn't appropriate for other types of puzzles, like 
> this purse. It's a similar situation with "purse"; the Spanish word would 
> depend on the type of "purse".
> 
> I'm inclined for "Cartera de ingenio", which would literally mean "Ingenuity 
> purse". That's as close as I got.
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance. If you prefer, you can instead reply privately to my 
> email address: gerardo(a)neorigami.com
> 
> --
> Gerardo G.
> gerardo(a)neorigami.com 
>  instagram.com/neorigamicom 
> Knowledge and Curiosity in Origami:
> six private classes online 
> 
> "(...) It doesn’t happen often, but when it does, it takes your breath away 
> and fills you with the true joy of origami. I experienced this in my lessons 
> with Gerardo G. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Gerardo is (...)" C. R. 
> Read the full review 
> 

[Origami] Name of the puzzle purse in Spanish?

[gera...@neorigami.com]

HELLO
I plan to teach this model to Spanish speakers: 
http://www.origamiheaven.com/historyofpuzzlepurses.htm
First of all, should I just call it "puzzle purse" in English? I see it 
sometimes appears as "Valentine puzzle purse" and some others as "Victorian 
puzzle purse". What do you suggest?
In regard to Spanish, have any of you seen any reference to this model–for 
example, its diagrams–in a book in said language? How was the model called?
If not, those of you that also now Spanish, how would you translate it? I'd say 
both the word "puzzle" and "purse" can be challenging to translate to Spanish. 
There's no exact translation for the word "puzzle". "Rompecabezas" means 
"jigsaw puzzle", but isn't appropriate for other types of puzzles, like this 
purse. It's a similar situation with "purse"; the Spanish word would depend on 
the type of "purse".
I'm inclined for "Cartera de ingenio", which would literally mean "Ingenuity 
purse". That's as close as I got.

Thank you in advance. If you prefer, you can instead reply privately to my 
email address: gerardo(a)neorigami.com
--
Gerardo G.
gerardo(a)neorigami.com
 instagram.com/neorigamicomKnowledge and Curiosity in Origami:
six private classes online

"(...) It doesn’t happen often, but when it does, it takes your breath away and 
fills you with the true joy of origami. I experienced this in my lessons with 
Gerardo G. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Gerardo is (...)" C. R. Read the 
full review