Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread 罗格雷格博士 
Oh yes

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com

_
From: David Connors mailto:da...@connors.com>>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:15 pm
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>


On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 at 10:56 Scott Barnes 
mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
"...Everytime I see a developer use multi-threading I think to myself, thank 
you for keeping future consultancy billables alive" - Anonymous

Most developers who create messes don't know what a thread is.

Personally, I thank whoever invented ORMs before I go to bed at night.

Performance and Go Live Problems FOR EVERYBODY!

David

--
David Connors
da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363

Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Tom Rutter 
IMO these "influential technical people" and vendors just see it as an
opportunity to add their name to something new and therefore keep their
jobs a bit longer.

Plus doing the same old thing is boring so anything new can be a good
change even if the old thing was "better".

On Monday, 28 November 2016, Greg Keogh  wrote:

> I **think** Greg Keogh started with this with some investigations on how
>> hard it was to implement something using framework/technique X. Cool. You
>> have learnt what not to do, not how to do something with the latest tech
>> just because Scott Hanselmann mentioned it.
>>
>
> Yeah sorry, it started as a somewhat surprised complaint over how messy it
> was to get Node.js working. Node.js mentioned so much lately (even MSDN
> magazine in the MEAN stack articles) that I thought it would be a nice way
> getting a bit sympathetic to JS and getting some practical skills. It would
> be great to be able to "script up" a REST service quickly ... after all,
> that's why scripting can be so great. I know someone who used Node.JS
> services to fed native mobile services they wrote in-house (but I don't
> know what tools he used).
>
> However, it all went of the rails once I reached 300+ files in 90+
> folders, using unfamiliar utilities, weird references, no IDE, no familiar
> project structure, and worst all ... it didn't work and was not listening
> on any port, and I had no idea how to debug it.
>
> I therefore maintain my claim that JavaScript and its huge ecosystem is
> poisonous, for all of the reasons mentioned in this thread. I'm shocked
> that large vendors and influential technical people are not raising loud
> alarm bells at the direction JS is taking our industry.
>
> *Greg K*
>

Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread David Connors 
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 at 10:56 Scott Barnes  wrote:

> "...Everytime I see a developer use multi-threading I think to myself,
> thank you for keeping future consultancy billables alive" - Anonymous
>

Most developers who create messes don't know what a thread is.

Personally, I thank whoever invented ORMs before I go to bed at night.

Performance and Go Live Problems FOR EVERYBODY!

David

-- 
David Connors
da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 417 189 363

Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Greg Keogh 
>
> I **think** Greg Keogh started with this with some investigations on how
> hard it was to implement something using framework/technique X. Cool. You
> have learnt what not to do, not how to do something with the latest tech
> just because Scott Hanselmann mentioned it.
>

Yeah sorry, it started as a somewhat surprised complaint over how messy it
was to get Node.js working. Node.js mentioned so much lately (even MSDN
magazine in the MEAN stack articles) that I thought it would be a nice way
getting a bit sympathetic to JS and getting some practical skills. It would
be great to be able to "script up" a REST service quickly ... after all,
that's why scripting can be so great. I know someone who used Node.JS
services to fed native mobile services they wrote in-house (but I don't
know what tools he used).

However, it all went of the rails once I reached 300+ files in 90+ folders,
using unfamiliar utilities, weird references, no IDE, no familiar project
structure, and worst all ... it didn't work and was not listening on any
port, and I had no idea how to debug it.

I therefore maintain my claim that JavaScript and its huge ecosystem is
poisonous, for all of the reasons mentioned in this thread. I'm shocked
that large vendors and influential technical people are not raising loud
alarm bells at the direction JS is taking our industry.

*Greg K*

RE: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Ken Schaefer 
Whilst, as consultants, we might like the mess that the 
unqualified/naïve/incompetent generate, in the sense that it creates more work 
for the rest of us, I do fear that customers don’t like that sort of 
environment.

Other professional industries have become regulated, standardised and/or 
commoditised either through practitioners banding together (to keep out 
competition or to protect reputations), or customers (whether that be firms, or 
large service providers) have forced it down the throat of the market. CIOs and 
boards don’t like uncertainty, unpredictability and endless project failure. 
They want to pay for predictable outcomes with some confidence of delivery – 
and then large MSPs will fight to develop 
standards/methodologies/frameworks/commercial models/off-the-shelf software 
that delivers that. Hence we now have everything from ITIL, through to detailed 
work instructions and hordes of cheap offshore labour that knows exactly how to 
turn a spanner to tighten a nut.

Of course, IT’s still changing too rapidly to lock this all down, hence why we 
still have jobs. But I suspect the hamster wheel will slow down at some point. 
We’ve already seen this at the lowest layers of IT – in infrastructure and 
end-user computing. I think we’ll see it in generic development next. Before it 
starts to gobble up higher-order stuff.

Cheers
Ken

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2016 11:56 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

To your point about unqualified devs Dave :-

"...Everytime I see a developer use multi-threading I think to myself, thank 
you for keeping future consultancy billables alive" - Anonymous

The more chaos the web devs breed the more the seasoned devs can pick up the 
win falls from that.


---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 10:52 AM, David Connors 
mailto:da...@connors.com>> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 at 10:13 Mark Hurd 
mailto:markeh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This is getting an off-topic post even more general, but this thread
also suggests to me part of why we're a hard industry to get proper
engineering-level standards applied.

I had a great chat about this with one of our engineers last week as we were 
discussing what we would likely be doing as careers if there was no such thing 
as IT.

What we worked out through discussion was that IT is, unlike most industries, 
completely unregulated. Anyone can call themselves a software engineer and, if 
you're competent and have a good reputation, you can do very well.

We never get hand outs from the government but then again we set our own rules 
of engagement and our fee structures are dictated by the market.

Not sure what the solution is, of course.

I used to have a bug up my arse about how unregulated IT is any how many 
unqualified / incompetent people there are in the industry. I've gotten over 
that and now appreciate people who make ummaintainable messes of things as 
great providers of market differentiation for us. :)

David.

--
David Connors
da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363

Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Scott Barnes 
To your point about unqualified devs Dave :-

"...Everytime I see a developer use multi-threading I think to myself,
thank you for keeping future consultancy billables alive" - Anonymous

The more chaos the web devs breed the more the seasoned devs can pick up
the win falls from that.



---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 10:52 AM, David Connors  wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 at 10:13 Mark Hurd  wrote:
>
>> This is getting an off-topic post even more general, but this thread
>> also suggests to me part of why we're a hard industry to get proper
>> engineering-level standards applied.
>>
>
> I had a great chat about this with one of our engineers last week as we
> were discussing what we would likely be doing as careers if there was no
> such thing as IT.
>
> What we worked out through discussion was that IT is, unlike most
> industries, completely unregulated. Anyone can call themselves a software
> engineer and, if you're competent and have a good reputation, you can do
> very well.
>
> We never get hand outs from the government but then again we set our own
> rules of engagement and our fee structures are dictated by the market.
>
>
>> Not sure what the solution is, of course.
>>
>
> I used to have a bug up my arse about how unregulated IT is any how many
> unqualified / incompetent people there are in the industry. I've gotten
> over that and now appreciate people who make ummaintainable messes of
> things as great providers of market differentiation for us. :)
>
> David.
>
> --
> David Connors
> da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 417 189 363
>

Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread David Connors 
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 at 10:13 Mark Hurd  wrote:

> This is getting an off-topic post even more general, but this thread
> also suggests to me part of why we're a hard industry to get proper
> engineering-level standards applied.
>

I had a great chat about this with one of our engineers last week as we
were discussing what we would likely be doing as careers if there was no
such thing as IT.

What we worked out through discussion was that IT is, unlike most
industries, completely unregulated. Anyone can call themselves a software
engineer and, if you're competent and have a good reputation, you can do
very well.

We never get hand outs from the government but then again we set our own
rules of engagement and our fee structures are dictated by the market.


> Not sure what the solution is, of course.
>

I used to have a bug up my arse about how unregulated IT is any how many
unqualified / incompetent people there are in the industry. I've gotten
over that and now appreciate people who make ummaintainable messes of
things as great providers of market differentiation for us. :)

David.

-- 
David Connors
da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 417 189 363

Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Mark Hurd 
This is getting an off-topic post even more general, but this thread
also suggests to me part of why we're a hard industry to get proper
engineering-level standards applied.

We might start to apply standards, but then the technology shifts from
under us and the standards are out of date. We then need to update the
standards to work with the new technology. (And as others have said
here, we're still not sure the new technology is better, but
"everyone's" already using it. Or we continue to use the now
out-of-date technology because that's what the standards apply to, and
"everyone else" moves on.)

Not sure what the solution is, of course.

-- 
Regards,
Mark Hurd, B.Sc.(Ma.)(Hons.)

RE: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Adrian Halid 
If you were to start a new Enterprise Web Project which has the potential to be 
continually developed and enhanced over 5 to 10 years what web technology 
frameworks would you choose?

 

Regards

 

Adrian Halid 

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Paul Glavich
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2016 6:18 AM
To: 'ozDotNet' 
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express

 

Yeah pretty much :)

 

I am a web guy through and through and I don’t mean to hack on people 
specifically, but as an industry it still manifests as real immaturity. I also 
don’t mean to suggest we don’t use and play with the new stuff either but the 
level of acceptance, particularly from people way smarter than me, is puzzling. 
It is real easy to be critical (like I have here…. ) so providing feedback on 
progress is pretty important. Doesn’t always work as momentum can carry it 
through (I am looking at you Angular2).

 

My rather rambling and opinionated point is that on a few engagements, I have 
recommended to not use the shiny new stuff, in favour of older but well known, 
and easier to maintain frameworks (after assessment of timeframes, people’s 
skillsets etc). Not using the latest in those cases has proven to be a boon, 
rather than an impediment. Sure it is lower on the coolness scale, and could be 
replaced with newer stuff later (obviously with a little rework) but it is 
working very well. It kind of suggests we perhaps invented part of the problem 
to solve in the first place. So I think play and assess the new stuff (like 
Greg has), but don’t blindly accept. Then engage and provide some form of 
influence or feedback so we don’t re-introduce the same mess in another 10 
years.

 

-  Glav

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com   
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Sunday, 27 November 2016 9:40 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> >
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

So Paul, you're basically saying "The standard we walk past, is the standard we 
accept" hehe :)




---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

 

On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Paul Glavich mailto:subscripti...@theglavs.com> > wrote:

Ahh the recurring thread about how immature the JS/Web dev community is and how 
hard it is to do anything “right”.

 

All I will say is we asked for it. If we didn’t ask for it, we accepted it. If 
we didn’t accept it, we assumed that the new was good and ran with it.

 

We make a whole lot of assumptions on server side tech and place a whole deal 
of constraints and measures on it.

 

Not so on client dev. Massive external dependencies are abhorrent on server 
side. On client side, they are celebrated (to cite an example).

 

We built it and promoted it. It is on us, not the vendors.

 

I *think* Greg Keogh started with this with some investigations on how hard it 
was to implement something using framework/technique X. Cool. You have learnt 
what not to do, not how to do something with the latest tech just because Scott 
Hanselmann mentioned it.

 

Caveat: I am an old bastard. This argument is not new, but it is compounded by 
an increase in velocity in general.

 

-  Glav

 

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com   
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  ] 
On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016 4:13 PM


To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> >
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

@Greg, the last version of LightSwitch you could choose either HTML5 or 
SilverLight on the client. But you're right... it's no longer an option.

 

On 25 November 2016 at 11:25, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) mailto:g...@greglow.com> > wrote:

Yep, Lightswitch is dead. It was Silverlight based.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

Dr Greg Low

 

1300SQLSQL   (1300 775 775) office |  
 +61 419201410 mobile│   
+61 3 8676 4913 fax 

SQL Down Under | Web:   www.sqldownunder.com |  
 http://greglow.me

 

From:   ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com 
[mailto:  ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] 
On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016 2:20 PM


To: ozDotNet <  ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

Arguably, a productive web-based RAD tool is exactly the sort of niche that 
Microsoft LightSwitch was trying to fill (although I'm pretty certain it's now 
dead). As I said earlier, we use OutSystems here, and I believe it's an area 
that Aurelia.IO and other vendors are growing into as well.

 

On 25 November 2016 at 11:00, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) <  
g...@greglow.com> wrote:

But that's exactly the point Scott. Why have we gone so far backwards in 
productivity?

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
1300S

Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread David Connors 
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 20:32 Paul Glavich 
wrote:

> You have learnt what not to do, not how to do something with the latest
> tech just because Scott Hanselmann mentioned it.
>

This made me chuckle.

David.

-- 
David Connors
da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 417 189 363

RE: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Paul Glavich 
Yeah pretty much :)

 

I am a web guy through and through and I don’t mean to hack on people 
specifically, but as an industry it still manifests as real immaturity. I also 
don’t mean to suggest we don’t use and play with the new stuff either but the 
level of acceptance, particularly from people way smarter than me, is puzzling. 
It is real easy to be critical (like I have here…. ) so providing feedback on 
progress is pretty important. Doesn’t always work as momentum can carry it 
through (I am looking at you Angular2).

 

My rather rambling and opinionated point is that on a few engagements, I have 
recommended to not use the shiny new stuff, in favour of older but well known, 
and easier to maintain frameworks (after assessment of timeframes, people’s 
skillsets etc). Not using the latest in those cases has proven to be a boon, 
rather than an impediment. Sure it is lower on the coolness scale, and could be 
replaced with newer stuff later (obviously with a little rework) but it is 
working very well. It kind of suggests we perhaps invented part of the problem 
to solve in the first place. So I think play and assess the new stuff (like 
Greg has), but don’t blindly accept. Then engage and provide some form of 
influence or feedback so we don’t re-introduce the same mess in another 10 
years.

 

-  Glav

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Sunday, 27 November 2016 9:40 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

So Paul, you're basically saying "The standard we walk past, is the standard we 
accept" hehe :)




---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

 

On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Paul Glavich mailto:subscripti...@theglavs.com> > wrote:

Ahh the recurring thread about how immature the JS/Web dev community is and how 
hard it is to do anything “right”.

 

All I will say is we asked for it. If we didn’t ask for it, we accepted it. If 
we didn’t accept it, we assumed that the new was good and ran with it.

 

We make a whole lot of assumptions on server side tech and place a whole deal 
of constraints and measures on it.

 

Not so on client dev. Massive external dependencies are abhorrent on server 
side. On client side, they are celebrated (to cite an example).

 

We built it and promoted it. It is on us, not the vendors.

 

I *think* Greg Keogh started with this with some investigations on how hard it 
was to implement something using framework/technique X. Cool. You have learnt 
what not to do, not how to do something with the latest tech just because Scott 
Hanselmann mentioned it.

 

Caveat: I am an old bastard. This argument is not new, but it is compounded by 
an increase in velocity in general.

 

-  Glav

 

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com   
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  ] 
On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016 4:13 PM


To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> >
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

@Greg, the last version of LightSwitch you could choose either HTML5 or 
SilverLight on the client. But you're right... it's no longer an option.

 

On 25 November 2016 at 11:25, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) mailto:g...@greglow.com> > wrote:

Yep, Lightswitch is dead. It was Silverlight based.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

Dr Greg Low

 

1300SQLSQL   (1300 775 775) office |  
 +61 419201410 mobile│   
+61 3 8676 4913 fax 

SQL Down Under | Web:   www.sqldownunder.com |  
 http://greglow.me

 

From:   ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com 
[mailto:  ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] 
On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016 2:20 PM


To: ozDotNet <  ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

Arguably, a productive web-based RAD tool is exactly the sort of niche that 
Microsoft LightSwitch was trying to fill (although I'm pretty certain it's now 
dead). As I said earlier, we use OutSystems here, and I believe it's an area 
that Aurelia.IO and other vendors are growing into as well.

 

On 25 November 2016 at 11:00, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) <  
g...@greglow.com> wrote:

But that's exactly the point Scott. Why have we gone so far backwards in 
productivity?

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL   (1300 775 775) office |  
 +61 419201410 mobile│   
+61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web:   www.sqldownunder.com

 


  _  


From:   ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com < 
 ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> on behalf 
of Scott Barnes <  scott.bar...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 12:09:38 PM
To: ozDotNet


Subject: Re: [OT] node.js

Re: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Scott Barnes 
So Paul, you're basically saying "The standard we walk past, is the
standard we accept" hehe :)

---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Paul Glavich 
wrote:

> Ahh the recurring thread about how immature the JS/Web dev community is
> and how hard it is to do anything “right”.
>
>
>
> All I will say is we asked for it. If we didn’t ask for it, we accepted
> it. If we didn’t accept it, we assumed that the new was good and ran with
> it.
>
>
>
> We make a whole lot of assumptions on server side tech and place a whole
> deal of constraints and measures on it.
>
>
>
> Not so on client dev. Massive external dependencies are abhorrent on
> server side. On client side, they are celebrated (to cite an example).
>
>
>
> We built it and promoted it. It is on us, not the vendors.
>
>
>
> I **think** Greg Keogh started with this with some investigations on how
> hard it was to implement something using framework/technique X. Cool. You
> have learnt what not to do, not how to do something with the latest tech
> just because Scott Hanselmann mentioned it.
>
>
>
> Caveat: I am an old bastard. This argument is not new, but it is
> compounded by an increase in velocity in general.
>
>
>
> -  Glav
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Nathan Schultz
> *Sent:* Friday, 25 November 2016 4:13 PM
>
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
>
> @Greg, the last version of LightSwitch you could choose either HTML5 or
> SilverLight on the client. But you're right... it's no longer an option.
>
>
>
> On 25 November 2016 at 11:25, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)  wrote:
>
> Yep, Lightswitch is dead. It was Silverlight based.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com | http://greglow.me
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Nathan Schultz
> *Sent:* Friday, 25 November 2016 2:20 PM
>
>
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
>
> Arguably, a productive web-based RAD tool is exactly the sort of niche
> that Microsoft LightSwitch was trying to fill (although I'm pretty certain
> it's now dead). As I said earlier, we use OutSystems here, and I believe
> it's an area that Aurelia.IO and other vendors are growing into as well.
>
>
>
> On 25 November 2016 at 11:00, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)  wrote:
>
> But that's exactly the point Scott. Why have we gone so far backwards in
> productivity?
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> Dr Greg Low
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>
>
> --
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  on
> behalf of Scott Barnes 
> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2016 12:09:38 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
>
> "It Depends" on what tool you're looking at. If all you're doing is
> staring at Visual Studio and that's it and wondering why the world is so
> hard to develop for then that's not a realistic outcome, as despite all the
> OSS rhetoric, Microsoft is still preoccupied with Windows first class
> citizen approach to roadmaps. They'll dip their toes in other platforms but
> until revenue models change, tool -> windows. The rest will just be
> additive biproduct / bonus rounds outside that.
>
>
>
> Products like Unity3D and Xamarin were the answer to that question but not
> as "drag-n-drop tab dot ship" as Winforms of old.. those days are well
> behind us now.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Regards,
> Scott Barnes
> http://www.riagenic.com
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) 
> wrote:
>
> So it then comes back to tooling again.
>
>
>
> Why can’t I build an app with the ease of a winform app and have it
> deployed in the current environments? Surely the app framework should fix
> the underlying mess and let me code to a uniform clean model.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com | http://greglow.me
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
> *Sent:* Thursday, 24 November 2016 9:41 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Subject:* RE: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
>
> I guess the conclusion I would draw from that is not so much that the “web
> world is so much worse because we have to cater for all these clients” as
> “the web world is the only feasible answer to catering for all these
> clients – it’s simply not financially feasible to do it via thick clients”
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com ] *On Behalf Of *Nathan
> Schultz
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 November 2

RE: [OT] node.js and express

2016-11-27 Thread Paul Glavich 
Ahh the recurring thread about how immature the JS/Web dev community is and how 
hard it is to do anything “right”.

 

All I will say is we asked for it. If we didn’t ask for it, we accepted it. If 
we didn’t accept it, we assumed that the new was good and ran with it.

 

We make a whole lot of assumptions on server side tech and place a whole deal 
of constraints and measures on it.

 

Not so on client dev. Massive external dependencies are abhorrent on server 
side. On client side, they are celebrated (to cite an example).

 

We built it and promoted it. It is on us, not the vendors.

 

I *think* Greg Keogh started with this with some investigations on how hard it 
was to implement something using framework/technique X. Cool. You have learnt 
what not to do, not how to do something with the latest tech just because Scott 
Hanselmann mentioned it.

 

Caveat: I am an old bastard. This argument is not new, but it is compounded by 
an increase in velocity in general.

 

-  Glav

 

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016 4:13 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

@Greg, the last version of LightSwitch you could choose either HTML5 or 
SilverLight on the client. But you're right... it's no longer an option.

 

On 25 November 2016 at 11:25, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) mailto:g...@greglow.com> > wrote:

Yep, Lightswitch is dead. It was Silverlight based.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

Dr Greg Low

 

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410   
mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913   fax 

SQL Down Under | Web:   www.sqldownunder.com |  
 http://greglow.me

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com   
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  ] 
On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016 2:20 PM


To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> >
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

Arguably, a productive web-based RAD tool is exactly the sort of niche that 
Microsoft LightSwitch was trying to fill (although I'm pretty certain it's now 
dead). As I said earlier, we use OutSystems here, and I believe it's an area 
that Aurelia.IO and other vendors are growing into as well.

 

On 25 November 2016 at 11:00, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) mailto:g...@greglow.com> > wrote:

But that's exactly the point Scott. Why have we gone so far backwards in 
productivity?

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410   
mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913   fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com  

 

  _  

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com   
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> > on 
behalf of Scott Barnes mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 12:09:38 PM
To: ozDotNet


Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express

 

"It Depends" on what tool you're looking at. If all you're doing is staring at 
Visual Studio and that's it and wondering why the world is so hard to develop 
for then that's not a realistic outcome, as despite all the OSS rhetoric, 
Microsoft is still preoccupied with Windows first class citizen approach to 
roadmaps. They'll dip their toes in other platforms but until revenue models 
change, tool -> windows. The rest will just be additive biproduct / bonus 
rounds outside that. 

 

Products like Unity3D and Xamarin were the answer to that question but not as 
"drag-n-drop tab dot ship" as Winforms of old.. those days are well behind us 
now.

 

 

 

 

 




---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

 

On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) mailto:g...@greglow.com> > wrote:

So it then comes back to tooling again.

 

Why can’t I build an app with the ease of a winform app and have it deployed in 
the current environments? Surely the app framework should fix the underlying 
mess and let me code to a uniform clean model.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

Dr Greg Low

 

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775  ) office | +61 419201410 
  mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913   
fax 

SQL Down Under | Web:   www.sqldownunder.com |  
 http://greglow.me

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com   
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  ] 
On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2016 9:41 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> >
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express

 

I guess the conclusion I would draw from that is not so much that the “web 
world is so much worse because we have to cater for all these clients” as “the 
web world is the only feasible answer to catering for all these clients – it’s 
simply not financially feasible to do it via thick clients”

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com