RE: [OT] Looking for work

[罗格雷格博士]

Love it…

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com/>

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Stephen Price
Sent: Friday, 10 June 2016 10:45 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work

You could call the app "Tender".

Sounds all kinds of wrong, I know.
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 7:56 PM +0800, "Scott Barnes" 
mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
There should be a Tinder / Grinder app for CV's... but instead of looks its 
blind resumes... then you as an employer have to ask a puzzle or specific 
question (you only get like 3)  the answer then gets handed in but you the 
employer need to match it to one of the pool of CV's you've "kept"...if you 
then lock it on the right target they get the job..

It's pretty much the same odds :) hehehe


---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Tony Wright 
mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I agree with you. There are all sorts of biases that come into play at 
interviews that often have very little to do with getting the right person to 
match the job and whether they can even do the job.

There are interviewers that want someone "like them" that might, perhaps, 
expect your braindump of technical knowledge to match theirs, there's primacy 
bias (comparing every candidate to the first one interviewed), recency bias 
(comparing everyone to the last person interviewed), there's the halo affect 
(one positive answer overshadows all negative answers), the horns affect (one 
negative answer overshadows all positive answers), and there's unconscious 
discrimination.

So there are definitely good people that get passed over during the interview 
process. Unfortunately, if you don't actually know the person or know of the 
person, there's really no other way. Mistakes in the interviewing process are 
often made, even when the person answers all the questions correctly they can 
still be a disaster. And these mistakes can just as easily be made by 
professional recruiters, who often suffer the same biases as everyone else.

The problem is really when you get someone that isn't a match. It is disastrous 
because it is a huge waste of time and money spent finding out the person isn't 
a fit. It is also disastrous because you will now need to find someone else to 
fill that position. And finally, it disastrous to the person themselves because 
they could have missed opportunities where they could have excelled in 
something else where they would have been a better match. So you don't really 
want to hire a person that thinks they're an "expert" that aren't really 
expert. It can make or break a project, and when it's your money on the line...




On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Scott Barnes 
mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm still stumbling my way through a psychology degree (hah weak attempt at an 
appeal to authority lol) but I'm more and more convinced that "technical 
interviews" are a form of projection less about means testing a persons' 
potential / abilities. Some folks just have extremely poor working memory while 
others have excellent ones but on the whole the ability for them to regurgitate 
the exact location of where logic lies within the .NET framework is really 
moot. Hell, I think i could probably put the .NET program managers themselves 
into the same process and i'd wonder if they would come out unscathed and more 
over what purpose does it really serve?

If someone can memorise the entirety of ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET> MVC but fails 
to apply the same logic in say Mono Subset then do they really know .NET or do 
they just know a subset of .NET. What if they could provide coverage on 
everything .NET up and until LINQ or Entity Framework? is that still .NET pass 
or fail? In that they've effectively illustrated they can grasp or comprehend 
the primitives required to progress with .NET but in the end have poor recall 
abilities?

In my interview process what I typically look for the most is appetite for 
puzzles. You're an engineer, you're not meant to walk in with answers you're 
supposed to walk in with enough foundation pieces to find answers, trick with 
interviews is to then test the foundation... its why stupid questions like "Why 
are manhole covers round" are legendary... its an open question that has only 
one true answer (because Ninja Turtles need to get in / out of them) but lends 
itself to creative / critical thinking.

Technical are fine but if they are more targeted at foundation level points 
...ie "inside pseudo code, write the usage of a p

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Stephen Price]

You could call the app "Tender".

Sounds all kinds of wrong, I know.

Get Outlook for iOS




On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 7:56 PM +0800, "Scott Barnes" 
mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com>> wrote:

There should be a Tinder / Grinder app for CV's... but instead of looks its 
blind resumes... then you as an employer have to ask a puzzle or specific 
question (you only get like 3)  the answer then gets handed in but you the 
employer need to match it to one of the pool of CV's you've "kept"...if you 
then lock it on the right target they get the job..

It's pretty much the same odds :) hehehe



---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Tony Wright 
mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I agree with you. There are all sorts of biases that come into play at 
interviews that often have very little to do with getting the right person to 
match the job and whether they can even do the job.

There are interviewers that want someone "like them" that might, perhaps, 
expect your braindump of technical knowledge to match theirs, there's primacy 
bias (comparing every candidate to the first one interviewed), recency bias 
(comparing everyone to the last person interviewed), there's the halo affect 
(one positive answer overshadows all negative answers), the horns affect (one 
negative answer overshadows all positive answers), and there's unconscious 
discrimination.

So there are definitely good people that get passed over during the interview 
process. Unfortunately, if you don't actually know the person or know of the 
person, there's really no other way. Mistakes in the interviewing process are 
often made, even when the person answers all the questions correctly they can 
still be a disaster. And these mistakes can just as easily be made by 
professional recruiters, who often suffer the same biases as everyone else.

The problem is really when you get someone that isn't a match. It is disastrous 
because it is a huge waste of time and money spent finding out the person isn't 
a fit. It is also disastrous because you will now need to find someone else to 
fill that position. And finally, it disastrous to the person themselves because 
they could have missed opportunities where they could have excelled in 
something else where they would have been a better match. So you don't really 
want to hire a person that thinks they're an "expert" that aren't really 
expert. It can make or break a project, and when it's your money on the line...




On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Scott Barnes 
mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm still stumbling my way through a psychology degree (hah weak attempt at an 
appeal to authority lol) but I'm more and more convinced that "technical 
interviews" are a form of projection less about means testing a persons' 
potential / abilities. Some folks just have extremely poor working memory while 
others have excellent ones but on the whole the ability for them to regurgitate 
the exact location of where logic lies within the .NET framework is really 
moot. Hell, I think i could probably put the .NET program managers themselves 
into the same process and i'd wonder if they would come out unscathed and more 
over what purpose does it really serve?

If someone can memorise the entirety of ASP.NET MVC but fails 
to apply the same logic in say Mono Subset then do they really know .NET or do 
they just know a subset of .NET. What if they could provide coverage on 
everything .NET up and until LINQ or Entity Framework? is that still .NET pass 
or fail? In that they've effectively illustrated they can grasp or comprehend 
the primitives required to progress with .NET but in the end have poor recall 
abilities?

In my interview process what I typically look for the most is appetite for 
puzzles. You're an engineer, you're not meant to walk in with answers you're 
supposed to walk in with enough foundation pieces to find answers, trick with 
interviews is to then test the foundation... its why stupid questions like "Why 
are manhole covers round" are legendary... its an open question that has only 
one true answer (because Ninja Turtles need to get in / out of them) but lends 
itself to creative / critical thinking.

Technical are fine but if they are more targeted at foundation level points 
...ie "inside pseudo code, write the usage of a pointer being passed in out of 
two separate layers and then same thing but a copy instead" - who cares if the 
person writes this in python, you now have an indicator marked out on their 
ability to understand how memory works which in turn is really what you want to 
know at the end of the day.

When people lie in their CV"s they are an "expert" don't be quick to punish, as 
what you're likely seeing unfolding is someone who's got the confidence and 
ambition to fight for that title - so in a way, use that, feed that behaviour 
and you'll likely come away with a seasoned warrior. If after 1 - 3

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Scott Barnes]

There should be a Tinder / Grinder app for CV's... but instead of looks its
blind resumes... then you as an employer have to ask a puzzle or specific
question (you only get like 3)  the answer then gets handed in but you the
employer need to match it to one of the pool of CV's you've "kept"...if you
then lock it on the right target they get the job..

It's pretty much the same odds :) hehehe



---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Tony Wright  wrote:

> I agree with you. There are all sorts of biases that come into play at
> interviews that often have very little to do with getting the right person
> to match the job and whether they can even do the job.
>
> There are interviewers that want someone "like them" that might, perhaps,
> expect your braindump of technical knowledge to match theirs, there's
> primacy bias (comparing every candidate to the first one interviewed),
> recency bias (comparing everyone to the last person interviewed), there's
> the halo affect (one positive answer overshadows all negative answers), the
> horns affect (one negative answer overshadows all positive answers), and
> there's unconscious discrimination.
>
> So there are definitely good people that get passed over during the
> interview process. Unfortunately, if you don't actually know the person or
> know of the person, there's really no other way. Mistakes in the
> interviewing process are often made, even when the person answers all the
> questions correctly they can still be a disaster. And these mistakes can
> just as easily be made by professional recruiters, who often suffer the
> same biases as everyone else.
>
> The problem is really when you get someone that isn't a match. It is
> disastrous because it is a huge waste of time and money spent finding out
> the person isn't a fit. It is also disastrous because you will now need to
> find someone else to fill that position. And finally, it disastrous to the
> person themselves because they could have missed opportunities where they
> could have excelled in something else where they would have been a better
> match. So you don't really want to hire a person that thinks they're an
> "expert" that aren't really expert. It can make or break a project, and
> when it's your money on the line...
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Scott Barnes 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm still stumbling my way through a psychology degree (hah weak attempt
>> at an appeal to authority lol) but I'm more and more convinced that
>> "technical interviews" are a form of projection less about means testing a
>> persons' potential / abilities. Some folks just have extremely poor working
>> memory while others have excellent ones but on the whole the ability for
>> them to regurgitate the exact location of where logic lies within the .NET
>> framework is really moot. Hell, I think i could probably put the .NET
>> program managers themselves into the same process and i'd wonder if they
>> would come out unscathed and more over what purpose does it really serve?
>>
>> If someone can memorise the entirety of ASP.NET MVC but fails to apply
>> the same logic in say Mono Subset then do they really know .NET or do they
>> just know a subset of .NET. What if they could provide coverage on
>> everything .NET up and until LINQ or Entity Framework? is that still .NET
>> pass or fail? In that they've effectively illustrated they can grasp or
>> comprehend the primitives required to progress with .NET but in the end
>> have poor recall abilities?
>>
>> In my interview process what I typically look for the most is appetite
>> for puzzles. You're an engineer, you're not meant to walk in with answers
>> you're supposed to walk in with enough foundation pieces to find answers,
>> trick with interviews is to then test the foundation... its why stupid
>> questions like "Why are manhole covers round" are legendary... its an open
>> question that has only one true answer (because Ninja Turtles need to get
>> in / out of them) but lends itself to creative / critical thinking.
>>
>> Technical are fine but if they are more targeted at foundation level
>> points ...ie "inside pseudo code, write the usage of a pointer being passed
>> in out of two separate layers and then same thing but a copy instead" - who
>> cares if the person writes this in python, you now have an indicator marked
>> out on their ability to understand how memory works which in turn is really
>> what you want to know at the end of the day.
>>
>> When people lie in their CV"s they are an "expert" don't be quick to
>> punish, as what you're likely seeing unfolding is someone who's got the
>> confidence and ambition to fight for that title - so in a way, use that,
>> feed that behaviour and you'll likely come away with a seasoned warrior. If
>> after 1 - 3 months they are an empty vessel, well you still can say "Sorry,
>> the tribe has spoken, thanks for coming". Only a fool would assume that a
>> new hire is produc

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Tony Wright]

I agree with you. There are all sorts of biases that come into play at
interviews that often have very little to do with getting the right person
to match the job and whether they can even do the job.

There are interviewers that want someone "like them" that might, perhaps,
expect your braindump of technical knowledge to match theirs, there's
primacy bias (comparing every candidate to the first one interviewed),
recency bias (comparing everyone to the last person interviewed), there's
the halo affect (one positive answer overshadows all negative answers), the
horns affect (one negative answer overshadows all positive answers), and
there's unconscious discrimination.

So there are definitely good people that get passed over during the
interview process. Unfortunately, if you don't actually know the person or
know of the person, there's really no other way. Mistakes in the
interviewing process are often made, even when the person answers all the
questions correctly they can still be a disaster. And these mistakes can
just as easily be made by professional recruiters, who often suffer the
same biases as everyone else.

The problem is really when you get someone that isn't a match. It is
disastrous because it is a huge waste of time and money spent finding out
the person isn't a fit. It is also disastrous because you will now need to
find someone else to fill that position. And finally, it disastrous to the
person themselves because they could have missed opportunities where they
could have excelled in something else where they would have been a better
match. So you don't really want to hire a person that thinks they're an
"expert" that aren't really expert. It can make or break a project, and
when it's your money on the line...




On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Scott Barnes  wrote:

> I'm still stumbling my way through a psychology degree (hah weak attempt
> at an appeal to authority lol) but I'm more and more convinced that
> "technical interviews" are a form of projection less about means testing a
> persons' potential / abilities. Some folks just have extremely poor working
> memory while others have excellent ones but on the whole the ability for
> them to regurgitate the exact location of where logic lies within the .NET
> framework is really moot. Hell, I think i could probably put the .NET
> program managers themselves into the same process and i'd wonder if they
> would come out unscathed and more over what purpose does it really serve?
>
> If someone can memorise the entirety of ASP.NET MVC but fails to apply
> the same logic in say Mono Subset then do they really know .NET or do they
> just know a subset of .NET. What if they could provide coverage on
> everything .NET up and until LINQ or Entity Framework? is that still .NET
> pass or fail? In that they've effectively illustrated they can grasp or
> comprehend the primitives required to progress with .NET but in the end
> have poor recall abilities?
>
> In my interview process what I typically look for the most is appetite for
> puzzles. You're an engineer, you're not meant to walk in with answers
> you're supposed to walk in with enough foundation pieces to find answers,
> trick with interviews is to then test the foundation... its why stupid
> questions like "Why are manhole covers round" are legendary... its an open
> question that has only one true answer (because Ninja Turtles need to get
> in / out of them) but lends itself to creative / critical thinking.
>
> Technical are fine but if they are more targeted at foundation level
> points ...ie "inside pseudo code, write the usage of a pointer being passed
> in out of two separate layers and then same thing but a copy instead" - who
> cares if the person writes this in python, you now have an indicator marked
> out on their ability to understand how memory works which in turn is really
> what you want to know at the end of the day.
>
> When people lie in their CV"s they are an "expert" don't be quick to
> punish, as what you're likely seeing unfolding is someone who's got the
> confidence and ambition to fight for that title - so in a way, use that,
> feed that behaviour and you'll likely come away with a seasoned warrior. If
> after 1 - 3 months they are an empty vessel, well you still can say "Sorry,
> the tribe has spoken, thanks for coming". Only a fool would assume that a
> new hire is productive in the 1-3 month timelines anyway, as thats just not
> how it actually unfolds (regardless of skill level).
>
> my 25c.
>
>
> ---
> Regards,
> Scott Barnes
> http://www.riagenic.com
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Bec C  wrote:
>
>> That's what recruitment agencies typically ask for on a CV. I know how
>> hard it can be when recruiters look for an "angular expert" but the only
>> angular experience you have is some online videos. Hard to compete. Many
>> devs lie on the CV actually to get the job, sometimes it works.
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Tony Wright  wrote:
>>
>>> I would find

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Stephen Price]

Forgot about that one...


I also thought to myself (after I replied) "hmmm... note how I went for the 
puzzle... damn, did he just bait me?"


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  on behalf 
of DotNet Dude 
Sent: Thursday, 9 June 2016 2:21:20 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work

4) So you can roll them and race cars down a hill

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Stephen Price 
mailto:step...@lythixdesigns.com>> wrote:

The reason man hole covers are round are:

1) the hole is round and

2) its impossible for a round cover to fall into a round hole. no matter which 
way you turn it, it can't fall down the hole. A square cover can fall down if 
you angle the shortest edge between the diagonals.

3) and because turtles.


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> on behalf 
of Scott Barnes mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, 9 June 2016 1:39:00 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work

I'm still stumbling my way through a psychology degree (hah weak attempt at an 
appeal to authority lol) but I'm more and more convinced that "technical 
interviews" are a form of projection less about means testing a persons' 
potential / abilities. Some folks just have extremely poor working memory while 
others have excellent ones but on the whole the ability for them to regurgitate 
the exact location of where logic lies within the .NET framework is really 
moot. Hell, I think i could probably put the .NET program managers themselves 
into the same process and i'd wonder if they would come out unscathed and more 
over what purpose does it really serve?

If someone can memorise the entirety of ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET> MVC but fails 
to apply the same logic in say Mono Subset then do they really know .NET or do 
they just know a subset of .NET. What if they could provide coverage on 
everything .NET up and until LINQ or Entity Framework? is that still .NET pass 
or fail? In that they've effectively illustrated they can grasp or comprehend 
the primitives required to progress with .NET but in the end have poor recall 
abilities?

In my interview process what I typically look for the most is appetite for 
puzzles. You're an engineer, you're not meant to walk in with answers you're 
supposed to walk in with enough foundation pieces to find answers, trick with 
interviews is to then test the foundation... its why stupid questions like "Why 
are manhole covers round" are legendary... its an open question that has only 
one true answer (because Ninja Turtles need to get in / out of them) but lends 
itself to creative / critical thinking.

Technical are fine but if they are more targeted at foundation level points 
...ie "inside pseudo code, write the usage of a pointer being passed in out of 
two separate layers and then same thing but a copy instead" - who cares if the 
person writes this in python, you now have an indicator marked out on their 
ability to understand how memory works which in turn is really what you want to 
know at the end of the day.

When people lie in their CV"s they are an "expert" don't be quick to punish, as 
what you're likely seeing unfolding is someone who's got the confidence and 
ambition to fight for that title - so in a way, use that, feed that behaviour 
and you'll likely come away with a seasoned warrior. If after 1 - 3 months they 
are an empty vessel, well you still can say "Sorry, the tribe has spoken, 
thanks for coming". Only a fool would assume that a new hire is productive in 
the 1-3 month timelines anyway, as thats just not how it actually unfolds 
(regardless of skill level).

my 25c.


---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Bec C 
mailto:bec.usern...@gmail.com>> wrote:
That's what recruitment agencies typically ask for on a CV. I know how hard it 
can be when recruiters look for an "angular expert" but the only angular 
experience you have is some online videos. Hard to compete. Many devs lie on 
the CV actually to get the job, sometimes it works.


On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Tony Wright 
mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I would find it a dubious stat, and certainly wouldn't rely on it.

It only indicates your perception of where you are and may have no basis in 
reality.

Best leave it out and wait for those employers that think it means something to 
request it from you.

Better employers will be able to gauge where you are from your history and 
clever questioning.

T.

On 7 Jun 2016 3:49 PM, "Tom P"  wrote:
What do the seniors here look for on a CV? I've been told by a few people I 
should be giving myself a score out of 10 for competency in a particular 
langua

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[DotNet Dude]

4) So you can roll them and race cars down a hill

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Stephen Price 
wrote:

> The reason man hole covers are round are:
>
> 1) the hole is round and
>
> 2) its impossible for a round cover to fall into a round hole. no matter
> which way you turn it, it can't fall down the hole. A square cover can fall
> down if you angle the shortest edge between the diagonals.
>
> 3) and because turtles.
> --
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  on
> behalf of Scott Barnes 
> *Sent:* Thursday, 9 June 2016 1:39:00 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Looking for work
>
> I'm still stumbling my way through a psychology degree (hah weak attempt
> at an appeal to authority lol) but I'm more and more convinced that
> "technical interviews" are a form of projection less about means testing a
> persons' potential / abilities. Some folks just have extremely poor working
> memory while others have excellent ones but on the whole the ability for
> them to regurgitate the exact location of where logic lies within the .NET
> framework is really moot. Hell, I think i could probably put the .NET
> program managers themselves into the same process and i'd wonder if they
> would come out unscathed and more over what purpose does it really serve?
>
> If someone can memorise the entirety of ASP.NET MVC but fails to apply
> the same logic in say Mono Subset then do they really know .NET or do they
> just know a subset of .NET. What if they could provide coverage on
> everything .NET up and until LINQ or Entity Framework? is that still .NET
> pass or fail? In that they've effectively illustrated they can grasp or
> comprehend the primitives required to progress with .NET but in the end
> have poor recall abilities?
>
> In my interview process what I typically look for the most is appetite for
> puzzles. You're an engineer, you're not meant to walk in with answers
> you're supposed to walk in with enough foundation pieces to find answers,
> trick with interviews is to then test the foundation... its why stupid
> questions like "Why are manhole covers round" are legendary... its an open
> question that has only one true answer (because Ninja Turtles need to get
> in / out of them) but lends itself to creative / critical thinking.
>
> Technical are fine but if they are more targeted at foundation level
> points ...ie "inside pseudo code, write the usage of a pointer being passed
> in out of two separate layers and then same thing but a copy instead" - who
> cares if the person writes this in python, you now have an indicator marked
> out on their ability to understand how memory works which in turn is really
> what you want to know at the end of the day.
>
> When people lie in their CV"s they are an "expert" don't be quick to
> punish, as what you're likely seeing unfolding is someone who's got the
> confidence and ambition to fight for that title - so in a way, use that,
> feed that behaviour and you'll likely come away with a seasoned warrior. If
> after 1 - 3 months they are an empty vessel, well you still can say "Sorry,
> the tribe has spoken, thanks for coming". Only a fool would assume that a
> new hire is productive in the 1-3 month timelines anyway, as thats just not
> how it actually unfolds (regardless of skill level).
>
> my 25c.
>
>
> ---
> Regards,
> Scott Barnes
> http://www.riagenic.com
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Bec C  wrote:
>
>> That's what recruitment agencies typically ask for on a CV. I know how
>> hard it can be when recruiters look for an "angular expert" but the only
>> angular experience you have is some online videos. Hard to compete. Many
>> devs lie on the CV actually to get the job, sometimes it works.
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Tony Wright  wrote:
>>
>>> I would find it a dubious stat, and certainly wouldn't rely on it.
>>>
>>> It only indicates your perception of where you are and may have no basis
>>> in reality.
>>>
>>> Best leave it out and wait for those employers that think it means
>>> something to request it from you.
>>>
>>> Better employers will be able to gauge where you are from your history
>>> and clever questioning.
>>>
>>> T.
>>> On 7 Jun 2016 3:49 PM, "Tom P"  wrote:
>>>
>>>> What do the seniors here look for on a CV? I've been told by a few
>>>> people I should be giving myself a score out of 10 for competency in a
>>>> particular language/technology but I find it quite hard to do that and have
>>>> it actually mean anything.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> On 7 June 2016 at 10:22, Greg Keogh  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an
>>>>>> AngularJS "expert" when I was looking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh hell! I'll never work again -- *GK*
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Stephen Price]

The reason man hole covers are round are:

1) the hole is round and

2) its impossible for a round cover to fall into a round hole. no matter which 
way you turn it, it can't fall down the hole. A square cover can fall down if 
you angle the shortest edge between the diagonals.

3) and because turtles.


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  on behalf 
of Scott Barnes 
Sent: Thursday, 9 June 2016 1:39:00 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work

I'm still stumbling my way through a psychology degree (hah weak attempt at an 
appeal to authority lol) but I'm more and more convinced that "technical 
interviews" are a form of projection less about means testing a persons' 
potential / abilities. Some folks just have extremely poor working memory while 
others have excellent ones but on the whole the ability for them to regurgitate 
the exact location of where logic lies within the .NET framework is really 
moot. Hell, I think i could probably put the .NET program managers themselves 
into the same process and i'd wonder if they would come out unscathed and more 
over what purpose does it really serve?

If someone can memorise the entirety of ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET> MVC but fails 
to apply the same logic in say Mono Subset then do they really know .NET or do 
they just know a subset of .NET. What if they could provide coverage on 
everything .NET up and until LINQ or Entity Framework? is that still .NET pass 
or fail? In that they've effectively illustrated they can grasp or comprehend 
the primitives required to progress with .NET but in the end have poor recall 
abilities?

In my interview process what I typically look for the most is appetite for 
puzzles. You're an engineer, you're not meant to walk in with answers you're 
supposed to walk in with enough foundation pieces to find answers, trick with 
interviews is to then test the foundation... its why stupid questions like "Why 
are manhole covers round" are legendary... its an open question that has only 
one true answer (because Ninja Turtles need to get in / out of them) but lends 
itself to creative / critical thinking.

Technical are fine but if they are more targeted at foundation level points 
...ie "inside pseudo code, write the usage of a pointer being passed in out of 
two separate layers and then same thing but a copy instead" - who cares if the 
person writes this in python, you now have an indicator marked out on their 
ability to understand how memory works which in turn is really what you want to 
know at the end of the day.

When people lie in their CV"s they are an "expert" don't be quick to punish, as 
what you're likely seeing unfolding is someone who's got the confidence and 
ambition to fight for that title - so in a way, use that, feed that behaviour 
and you'll likely come away with a seasoned warrior. If after 1 - 3 months they 
are an empty vessel, well you still can say "Sorry, the tribe has spoken, 
thanks for coming". Only a fool would assume that a new hire is productive in 
the 1-3 month timelines anyway, as thats just not how it actually unfolds 
(regardless of skill level).

my 25c.


---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Bec C 
mailto:bec.usern...@gmail.com>> wrote:
That's what recruitment agencies typically ask for on a CV. I know how hard it 
can be when recruiters look for an "angular expert" but the only angular 
experience you have is some online videos. Hard to compete. Many devs lie on 
the CV actually to get the job, sometimes it works.


On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Tony Wright 
mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I would find it a dubious stat, and certainly wouldn't rely on it.

It only indicates your perception of where you are and may have no basis in 
reality.

Best leave it out and wait for those employers that think it means something to 
request it from you.

Better employers will be able to gauge where you are from your history and 
clever questioning.

T.

On 7 Jun 2016 3:49 PM, "Tom P"  wrote:
What do the seniors here look for on a CV? I've been told by a few people I 
should be giving myself a score out of 10 for competency in a particular 
language/technology but I find it quite hard to do that and have it actually 
mean anything.

Thanks
Tom

On 7 June 2016 at 10:22, Greg Keogh  wrote:
I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS 
"expert" when I was looking.

Oh hell! I'll never work again -- GK

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Scott Barnes]

I'm still stumbling my way through a psychology degree (hah weak attempt at
an appeal to authority lol) but I'm more and more convinced that "technical
interviews" are a form of projection less about means testing a persons'
potential / abilities. Some folks just have extremely poor working memory
while others have excellent ones but on the whole the ability for them to
regurgitate the exact location of where logic lies within the .NET
framework is really moot. Hell, I think i could probably put the .NET
program managers themselves into the same process and i'd wonder if they
would come out unscathed and more over what purpose does it really serve?

If someone can memorise the entirety of ASP.NET MVC but fails to apply the
same logic in say Mono Subset then do they really know .NET or do they just
know a subset of .NET. What if they could provide coverage on everything
.NET up and until LINQ or Entity Framework? is that still .NET pass or
fail? In that they've effectively illustrated they can grasp or comprehend
the primitives required to progress with .NET but in the end have poor
recall abilities?

In my interview process what I typically look for the most is appetite for
puzzles. You're an engineer, you're not meant to walk in with answers
you're supposed to walk in with enough foundation pieces to find answers,
trick with interviews is to then test the foundation... its why stupid
questions like "Why are manhole covers round" are legendary... its an open
question that has only one true answer (because Ninja Turtles need to get
in / out of them) but lends itself to creative / critical thinking.

Technical are fine but if they are more targeted at foundation level points
...ie "inside pseudo code, write the usage of a pointer being passed in out
of two separate layers and then same thing but a copy instead" - who cares
if the person writes this in python, you now have an indicator marked out
on their ability to understand how memory works which in turn is really
what you want to know at the end of the day.

When people lie in their CV"s they are an "expert" don't be quick to
punish, as what you're likely seeing unfolding is someone who's got the
confidence and ambition to fight for that title - so in a way, use that,
feed that behaviour and you'll likely come away with a seasoned warrior. If
after 1 - 3 months they are an empty vessel, well you still can say "Sorry,
the tribe has spoken, thanks for coming". Only a fool would assume that a
new hire is productive in the 1-3 month timelines anyway, as thats just not
how it actually unfolds (regardless of skill level).

my 25c.


---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Bec C  wrote:

> That's what recruitment agencies typically ask for on a CV. I know how
> hard it can be when recruiters look for an "angular expert" but the only
> angular experience you have is some online videos. Hard to compete. Many
> devs lie on the CV actually to get the job, sometimes it works.
>
>
> On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Tony Wright  wrote:
>
>> I would find it a dubious stat, and certainly wouldn't rely on it.
>>
>> It only indicates your perception of where you are and may have no basis
>> in reality.
>>
>> Best leave it out and wait for those employers that think it means
>> something to request it from you.
>>
>> Better employers will be able to gauge where you are from your history
>> and clever questioning.
>>
>> T.
>> On 7 Jun 2016 3:49 PM, "Tom P"  wrote:
>>
>>> What do the seniors here look for on a CV? I've been told by a few
>>> people I should be giving myself a score out of 10 for competency in a
>>> particular language/technology but I find it quite hard to do that and have
>>> it actually mean anything.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On 7 June 2016 at 10:22, Greg Keogh  wrote:
>>>
 I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an
> AngularJS "expert" when I was looking.
>

 Oh hell! I'll never work again -- *GK*

>>>
>>>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Bec C]

That's what recruitment agencies typically ask for on a CV. I know how hard
it can be when recruiters look for an "angular expert" but the only angular
experience you have is some online videos. Hard to compete. Many devs lie
on the CV actually to get the job, sometimes it works.

On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Tony Wright  wrote:

> I would find it a dubious stat, and certainly wouldn't rely on it.
>
> It only indicates your perception of where you are and may have no basis
> in reality.
>
> Best leave it out and wait for those employers that think it means
> something to request it from you.
>
> Better employers will be able to gauge where you are from your history and
> clever questioning.
>
> T.
> On 7 Jun 2016 3:49 PM, "Tom P"  > wrote:
>
>> What do the seniors here look for on a CV? I've been told by a few people
>> I should be giving myself a score out of 10 for competency in a particular
>> language/technology but I find it quite hard to do that and have it
>> actually mean anything.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Tom
>>
>> On 7 June 2016 at 10:22, Greg Keogh > > wrote:
>>
>>> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an
 AngularJS "expert" when I was looking.

>>>
>>> Oh hell! I'll never work again -- *GK*
>>>
>>
>>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[罗格雷格博士]

Be careful what knowledge you claim to have too. I regularly do technical 
interviews on behalf of clients (3 so far this week already - must be the 
season for it). If a person claims experience or knowledge in an area, I tend 
to drill into it with increasing depth to judge that myself anyway. It's 
obvious when they just put entries in to match a recruiter's search.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com




On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM +1000, "Tom P" 
mailto:tompbi...@gmail.com>> wrote:

What do the seniors here look for on a CV? I've been told by a few people I 
should be giving myself a score out of 10 for competency in a particular 
language/technology but I find it quite hard to do that and have it actually 
mean anything.

Thanks
Tom

On 7 June 2016 at 10:22, Greg Keogh 
mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS 
"expert" when I was looking.

Oh hell! I'll never work again -- GK

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Tony Wright]

I would find it a dubious stat, and certainly wouldn't rely on it.

It only indicates your perception of where you are and may have no basis in
reality.

Best leave it out and wait for those employers that think it means
something to request it from you.

Better employers will be able to gauge where you are from your history and
clever questioning.

T.
On 7 Jun 2016 3:49 PM, "Tom P"  wrote:

> What do the seniors here look for on a CV? I've been told by a few people
> I should be giving myself a score out of 10 for competency in a particular
> language/technology but I find it quite hard to do that and have it
> actually mean anything.
>
> Thanks
> Tom
>
> On 7 June 2016 at 10:22, Greg Keogh  wrote:
>
>> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
>>> "expert" when I was looking.
>>>
>>
>> Oh hell! I'll never work again -- *GK*
>>
>
>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Tom P]

What do the seniors here look for on a CV? I've been told by a few people I
should be giving myself a score out of 10 for competency in a particular
language/technology but I find it quite hard to do that and have it
actually mean anything.

Thanks
Tom

On 7 June 2016 at 10:22, Greg Keogh  wrote:

> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
>> "expert" when I was looking.
>>
>
> Oh hell! I'll never work again -- *GK*
>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Stephen Price]

Makes me think of pancakes. ...


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  on behalf 
of Tony Wright 
Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2016 9:32:13 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work


If you can do everything, you are now a full stack developer. That tells people 
you can do more than build a Web page.

On 7 Jun 2016 11:26 AM, "Stephen Price" 
mailto:step...@lythixdesigns.com>> wrote:

I've actually wondered about this myself. The roles I go for are the .Net 
roles. Generally speaking, my role is ".Net Developer" due to the C# .Net being 
the main skill required, but its rarely all you do. Javascript is a big 
component these days, and as it's been pointed out, so many client side 
technologies to choose from (most not Microsoft).

So will there come a day where we no longer call ourselves .Net developers? 
There has always been a gap between web developers and .Net developers both in 
skill set and rates of pay. I suspect web developers (technology wise) have 
caught up or are catching up. (in both areas?)

A simple static website is one thing, but an actual web application requires a 
lot of skill. No difference to the backend stuff.

I've also struggled with MVC being the right fit for web applications now. I'm 
working on my own project on the side and what started as MVC is now pretty 
much a SPA hosted in the MVC framework. If I was to start it over now, I'd make 
it an Angular 2 front end with WebAPI (because I know C#) for the backend. Will 
that change down the track? Perhaps the backend could end up something non .Net 
like node or something. Suddenly I'm no longer a Microsoft developer... so what 
do I call myself?


cheers

Stephen


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> on behalf 
of Michael Ridland mailto:rid...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2016 9:15:42 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work


I find it strange that there wouldn't be many jobs with MVC, there must be a 
large amount of codebases still using MVC?

Thanks


Michael Ridland | Technical Director | Xamarin MVP

XAM Consulting - Mobile Technology Specialists

www.xam-consulting.com<http://www.xam-consulting.com/>

Blog: www.michaelridland.com<http://www.michaelridland.com>


On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Tom P 
mailto:tompbi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Server side code like MVC are my strengths but it seems nobody cares for that 
any more. I'm stuck in 2011 it seems.

On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Greg Low (??) 
mailto:g...@greglow.com>> wrote:
Hey Tom,

Best to give us a clue on what you think your core strengths are. Then anyone 
that knows of something can let you know.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile? 
+61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com/>

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Tom P
Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2016 10:17 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work

No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps then.

Thanks
Tom

On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C  wrote:
I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS 
"expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not even reaching 
that stage?

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:
Hi folks,

I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very desperate 
now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send through.

Thanks
Tom




--
Thanks
Tom

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Tony Wright]

If you can do everything, you are now a full stack developer. That tells
people you can do more than build a Web page.
On 7 Jun 2016 11:26 AM, "Stephen Price"  wrote:

> I've actually wondered about this myself. The roles I go for are the .Net
> roles. Generally speaking, my role is ".Net Developer" due to the C# .Net
> being the main skill required, but its rarely all you do. Javascript is a
> big component these days, and as it's been pointed out, so many client side
> technologies to choose from (most not Microsoft).
>
> So will there come a day where we no longer call ourselves .Net
> developers? There has always been a gap between web developers and .Net
> developers both in skill set and rates of pay. I suspect web developers
> (technology wise) have caught up or are catching up. (in both areas?)
>
> A simple static website is one thing, but an actual web application
> requires a lot of skill. No difference to the backend stuff.
>
> I've also struggled with MVC being the right fit for web applications now.
> I'm working on my own project on the side and what started as MVC is now
> pretty much a SPA hosted in the MVC framework. If I was to start it over
> now, I'd make it an Angular 2 front end with WebAPI (because I know C#) for
> the backend. Will that change down the track? Perhaps the backend could end
> up something non .Net like node or something. Suddenly I'm no longer a
> Microsoft developer... so what do I call myself?
>
>
> cheers
>
> Stephen
> --
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  on
> behalf of Michael Ridland 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 7 June 2016 9:15:42 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Looking for work
>
>
> I find it strange that there wouldn't be many jobs with MVC, there must be
> a large amount of codebases still using MVC?
>
> Thanks
>
> *Michael Ridland | Technical Director | Xamarin MVP*
>
> XAM Consulting - Mobile Technology Specialists
>
> www.xam-consulting.com
>
> Blog: www.michaelridland.com
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Tom P  wrote:
>
>> Server side code like MVC are my strengths but it seems nobody cares for
>> that any more. I'm stuck in 2011 it seems.
>>
>> On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)  wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Tom,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best to give us a clue on what you think your core strengths are. Then
>>> anyone that knows of something can let you know.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>>> fax
>>>
>>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
>>> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom P
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 7 June 2016 10:17 AM
>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Looking for work
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps
>>> then.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C  wrote:
>>>
>>> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an
>>> AngularJS "expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not
>>> even reaching that stage?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very
>>> desperate now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send
>>> through.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks
>> Tom
>>
>>
>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Michael Ridland]

I've built many application with Angular so I know what it is.

I was referring to the fact majority of development is done on existing
system, people cannot rebuild large systems overnight??




*Michael Ridland | Technical Director | Xamarin MVP*

XAM Consulting - Mobile Technology Specialists

www.xam-consulting.com

Blog: www.michaelridland.com



On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Tony Wright  wrote:

> Angular does mvc entirely on the client. You don't even need mvc on the
> server anymore. The only thing you do with the server is interact with
> webapi, which is were all the server-side business logic resides.
>
> Some places use JavaScript libraries that only implement the view part of
> mvc, so you can still use server side mvc, but you will need one of those
> JavaScript libraries if you want to go down that path. React is an example
> of this.
>
> There are also other ways now that you implement continuous integration,
> compression etc. Some people on here have hinted on that, with references
> to gulp and Sass and various other intermediate processes, and even the new
> visual code ide can work with those.
>
> It turns out that one of the strengths of visual studio, having all these
> tools integrated, is now one of its weaknesses, in that because it doesn't
> use an accessible pipeline it can't adapt quickly when new processes are
> invented.
>
> If you want an example of a modem enterprise architecture, I would
> recommend you take a look at asp.net boilerplate, (google it) which is a
> framework I used on my last project. (Unfortunately I think it is still
> angular 1, but it is still worth a look)
>
> T.
> On 7 Jun 2016 11:07 AM, "Tom P"  wrote:
>
>> Server side code like MVC are my strengths but it seems nobody cares for
>> that any more. I'm stuck in 2011 it seems.
>>
>> On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)  wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Tom,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best to give us a clue on what you think your core strengths are. Then
>>> anyone that knows of something can let you know.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>>> fax
>>>
>>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
>>> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom P
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 7 June 2016 10:17 AM
>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Looking for work
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps
>>> then.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C  wrote:
>>>
>>> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an
>>> AngularJS "expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not
>>> even reaching that stage?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very
>>> desperate now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send
>>> through.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks
>> Tom
>>
>>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Stephen Price]

I've actually wondered about this myself. The roles I go for are the .Net 
roles. Generally speaking, my role is ".Net Developer" due to the C# .Net being 
the main skill required, but its rarely all you do. Javascript is a big 
component these days, and as it's been pointed out, so many client side 
technologies to choose from (most not Microsoft).

So will there come a day where we no longer call ourselves .Net developers? 
There has always been a gap between web developers and .Net developers both in 
skill set and rates of pay. I suspect web developers (technology wise) have 
caught up or are catching up. (in both areas?)

A simple static website is one thing, but an actual web application requires a 
lot of skill. No difference to the backend stuff.

I've also struggled with MVC being the right fit for web applications now. I'm 
working on my own project on the side and what started as MVC is now pretty 
much a SPA hosted in the MVC framework. If I was to start it over now, I'd make 
it an Angular 2 front end with WebAPI (because I know C#) for the backend. Will 
that change down the track? Perhaps the backend could end up something non .Net 
like node or something. Suddenly I'm no longer a Microsoft developer... so what 
do I call myself?


cheers

Stephen


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  on behalf 
of Michael Ridland 
Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2016 9:15:42 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work


I find it strange that there wouldn't be many jobs with MVC, there must be a 
large amount of codebases still using MVC?

Thanks


Michael Ridland | Technical Director | Xamarin MVP

XAM Consulting - Mobile Technology Specialists

www.xam-consulting.com<http://www.xam-consulting.com/>

Blog: www.michaelridland.com<http://www.michaelridland.com>


On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Tom P 
mailto:tompbi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Server side code like MVC are my strengths but it seems nobody cares for that 
any more. I'm stuck in 2011 it seems.

On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Greg Low (??) 
mailto:g...@greglow.com>> wrote:
Hey Tom,

Best to give us a clue on what you think your core strengths are. Then anyone 
that knows of something can let you know.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile? 
+61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com/>

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Tom P
Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2016 10:17 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work

No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps then.

Thanks
Tom

On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C  wrote:
I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS 
"expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not even reaching 
that stage?

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:
Hi folks,

I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very desperate 
now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send through.

Thanks
Tom




--
Thanks
Tom

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Tony Wright]

Angular does mvc entirely on the client. You don't even need mvc on the
server anymore. The only thing you do with the server is interact with
webapi, which is were all the server-side business logic resides.

Some places use JavaScript libraries that only implement the view part of
mvc, so you can still use server side mvc, but you will need one of those
JavaScript libraries if you want to go down that path. React is an example
of this.

There are also other ways now that you implement continuous integration,
compression etc. Some people on here have hinted on that, with references
to gulp and Sass and various other intermediate processes, and even the new
visual code ide can work with those.

It turns out that one of the strengths of visual studio, having all these
tools integrated, is now one of its weaknesses, in that because it doesn't
use an accessible pipeline it can't adapt quickly when new processes are
invented.

If you want an example of a modem enterprise architecture, I would
recommend you take a look at asp.net boilerplate, (google it) which is a
framework I used on my last project. (Unfortunately I think it is still
angular 1, but it is still worth a look)

T.
On 7 Jun 2016 11:07 AM, "Tom P"  wrote:

> Server side code like MVC are my strengths but it seems nobody cares for
> that any more. I'm stuck in 2011 it seems.
>
> On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)  wrote:
>
>> Hey Tom,
>>
>>
>>
>> Best to give us a clue on what you think your core strengths are. Then
>> anyone that knows of something can let you know.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>> fax
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
>> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom P
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 7 June 2016 10:17 AM
>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Looking for work
>>
>>
>>
>> No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps
>> then.
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C  wrote:
>>
>> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
>> "expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not even
>> reaching that stage?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very
>> desperate now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send
>> through.
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> Tom
>
>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Michael Ridland]

I find it strange that there wouldn't be many jobs with MVC, there must be
a large amount of codebases still using MVC?

Thanks

*Michael Ridland | Technical Director | Xamarin MVP*

XAM Consulting - Mobile Technology Specialists

www.xam-consulting.com

Blog: www.michaelridland.com



On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Tom P  wrote:

> Server side code like MVC are my strengths but it seems nobody cares for
> that any more. I'm stuck in 2011 it seems.
>
> On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)  wrote:
>
>> Hey Tom,
>>
>>
>>
>> Best to give us a clue on what you think your core strengths are. Then
>> anyone that knows of something can let you know.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>> fax
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
>> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom P
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 7 June 2016 10:17 AM
>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Looking for work
>>
>>
>>
>> No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps
>> then.
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C  wrote:
>>
>> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
>> "expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not even
>> reaching that stage?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very
>> desperate now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send
>> through.
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> Tom
>
>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Tom P]

Server side code like MVC are my strengths but it seems nobody cares for
that any more. I'm stuck in 2011 it seems.

On Tuesday, 7 June 2016, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)  wrote:

> Hey Tom,
>
>
>
> Best to give us a clue on what you think your core strengths are. Then
> anyone that knows of something can let you know.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
>  [mailto:
> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
> ] *On
> Behalf Of *Tom P
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 7 June 2016 10:17 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet  >
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Looking for work
>
>
>
> No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps then.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C  > wrote:
>
> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
> "expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not even
> reaching that stage?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  > wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
>
>
> I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very
> desperate now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send
> through.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Thanks
Tom

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Tony Wright]

In the past you could ride the winning horse, which was Microsoft, and you
would almost always be in a job. I did this myself for 20 years. But in
about the last 5 years the market diversified away from Microsoft. Amazon
invented the cloud, smart phones became prolific and client side JavaScript
libraries became the new way everything is done in the Web world.

I also read a lot about people that thought they were too old now for IT
and nobody wanted them anymore. That's rubbish as far as I'm concerned.
Businesses will always hire people who have the latest greatest skills and
the experience that goes with it.

So 2 years ago I got a pluralsight subscription and learnt angular. And it
was eye opening and door opening. It is definitely a path worth taking for
people in the Microsoft world. Angular 2 will be even better.

You need to diversify to be relevant. Investigate the job market, figure
out what is in demand and make the transition.

The reason I recognised it changed was only because I saw it happen to my
dad when they went from mainframe to micro to pc. He was great on mainframe
and micro but couldn't really transition to pc, which left him in
unemployment for a significant period of time.

Things have changed and even Microsoft recognises it.

You need to adapt and keep up as well.

T.
On 7 Jun 2016 10:22 AM, "Greg Keogh"  wrote:

> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
>> "expert" when I was looking.
>>
>
> Oh hell! I'll never work again -- *GK*
>

RE: [OT] Looking for work

[罗格雷格博士]

Hey Tom,

Best to give us a clue on what you think your core strengths are. Then anyone 
that knows of something can let you know.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com/>

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Tom P
Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2016 10:17 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] Looking for work

No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps then.

Thanks
Tom

On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C 
mailto:bec.usern...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS 
"expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not even reaching 
that stage?

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P 
mailto:tompbi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi folks,

I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very desperate 
now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send through.

Thanks
Tom

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Greg Keogh]

>
> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
> "expert" when I was looking.
>

Oh hell! I'll never work again -- *GK*

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Tom P]

No interviews in three months. I'll look into an Angular cert perhaps then.

Thanks
Tom

On 7 June 2016 at 10:15, Bec C  wrote:

> I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
> "expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not even
> reaching that stage?
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very
>> desperate now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send
>> through.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Tom
>>
>
>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[Bec C]

I had a tough time down there too. Everywhere seemed to want an AngularJS
"expert" when I was looking. Are you getting interviews or not even
reaching that stage?

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very
> desperate now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send
> through.
>
> Thanks
> Tom
>

Re: [OT] Looking for work

[DotNet Dude]

Send through your CV and I'll try to hook you up

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom P  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I've really had a tough time finding work in Melbourne. Getting very
> desperate now. If anyone knows of a junior-intermediate role please send
> through.
>
> Thanks
> Tom
>