Re: [ozmidwifery] Quote of the Week - traumatic twin birth

[M & T Holroyd]

Congratulations to you & your family Justine.  I hope all went well.

Best wishes,  Tina H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Justine Caines" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Quote of the Week - traumatic twin birth


> Here Here Andrea
>
> I love that strategy and use it as a consumer. "I would be most interested
> to see the evidence that backs your claim"
>
> Geesje I hope you will be part of the MC National Day of Action (Saturday
> May 8).  The NSW day is to be held at Camden/Campbelltown to give Mr
Latham
> a very clear message that the federal government need to be more active in
> the promotion of best practice maternity care as the states are doing a
> pretty lousy job, and particularly that Latham needs to walk his talk re
> community and personal responsibility and family and all the rest!!!
>
> Justine
>
> PS:  New babe (Feb 28 9.15 am, another boy, Tobias Michael, 3.6kg and so
far
> a gentle soul)
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrea Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 12:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Quote of the Week - traumatic twin birth
>
>
> > Hello Geesje,
> >
> > When doctors start quoting the research like this, they are often
talking
> > "through their hat".
> > Since he is apparently up to date with the research, why not ask him to
> > produce the evidence he is using as the basis for his practice? It
> > shouldn't be up to you to find something to refute his claims, but his
> > responsibility to provide the research he is using.
> >
> > Doctors will get away with making these kinds of wild claims unless we
> > start questioning them. I was contacted recently by an obstetrician who
> > wanted to challenge something I have written in "Preparing for Birth:
> > Mothers". He claimed that there was research that showed one of my
> > statements was wrong and he said I should change what I have written "so
> > that I am not scaring the women". I wrote a friendly reply, asking that
he
> > give me the reference he was quoting, so I could be sure to have my
> > information correct. I pointed out that I would gladly make changes but
> > would only do so if I had reliable research evidence. Until then, my
book
> > would remain unchanged.  I am still waiting to hear back from him!
My
> > suspicion is that he didn't think I would call his bluff, but take "his
> > word" for it.
> >
> > How about trying this tack with this obstetrician. You could quite
easily
> > say that you want to make sure your practice is evidence based, and
would
> > welcome an update on this research that you must have missed. it
would
> > be interesting to see how he handles this! Challenging him in this way
> > might also help you to feel a bit better about this awful outcome and
> > perhaps make him think twice before trying it again.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> > At 11:53 PM 5/03/2004, Geesje and Steve wrote:
> > >Hi,
> > >Why do obstetrcians not see this?
> > >I'm hoping someone can help me. I'm sorry if I don't make much sense
but
> > >I'm very upset and full of emotions after witnessing a horrific twins
> > >birth last night. It was the worst birth I've ever seen in the 20 years
> > >that I have been in midwifery. My grandfather's vet did a gentler job
> with
> > >the cows! And to make it worse the obstetrician thought he had done a
> > >brilliant job! He got both twins out within 8 minutes. On questioning
> > >prior to the birth, on how long he would wait for the second twin to
> > >engage he said that he aims to get the second twin out 5-10 minutes
after
> > >the first because this is what all the research advises. "If you wait
> > >you're only waiting for trouble" . Silly me thought he was going to
wait
> > >at least one contraction to see what happened. How wrong I was.. .
> > >Now if anyone keeps up with research, it's me! But I have not read that
> it
> > >is advisable to act, instead of wait to see if the second twin engages,
> > >especially if they are both cephalic - like these twins were.
> > >Can anyone tell me where I can find the research that states that an
> > >epidural in a twin labour is best practice and the research  that
states
> > >that the second twin should be born (with of without force) as soon as
> > >pos

Re: [ozmidwifery] Quote of the Week - traumatic twin birth

[Justine Caines]

Here Here Andrea

I love that strategy and use it as a consumer. "I would be most interested
to see the evidence that backs your claim"

Geesje I hope you will be part of the MC National Day of Action (Saturday
May 8).  The NSW day is to be held at Camden/Campbelltown to give Mr Latham
a very clear message that the federal government need to be more active in
the promotion of best practice maternity care as the states are doing a
pretty lousy job, and particularly that Latham needs to walk his talk re
community and personal responsibility and family and all the rest!!!

Justine

PS:  New babe (Feb 28 9.15 am, another boy, Tobias Michael, 3.6kg and so far
a gentle soul)

- Original Message -
From: "Andrea Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Quote of the Week - traumatic twin birth


> Hello Geesje,
>
> When doctors start quoting the research like this, they are often talking
> "through their hat".
> Since he is apparently up to date with the research, why not ask him to
> produce the evidence he is using as the basis for his practice? It
> shouldn't be up to you to find something to refute his claims, but his
> responsibility to provide the research he is using.
>
> Doctors will get away with making these kinds of wild claims unless we
> start questioning them. I was contacted recently by an obstetrician who
> wanted to challenge something I have written in "Preparing for Birth:
> Mothers". He claimed that there was research that showed one of my
> statements was wrong and he said I should change what I have written "so
> that I am not scaring the women". I wrote a friendly reply, asking that he
> give me the reference he was quoting, so I could be sure to have my
> information correct. I pointed out that I would gladly make changes but
> would only do so if I had reliable research evidence. Until then, my book
> would remain unchanged.  I am still waiting to hear back from him!  My
> suspicion is that he didn't think I would call his bluff, but take "his
> word" for it.
>
> How about trying this tack with this obstetrician. You could quite easily
> say that you want to make sure your practice is evidence based, and would
> welcome an update on this research that you must have missed. it would
> be interesting to see how he handles this! Challenging him in this way
> might also help you to feel a bit better about this awful outcome and
> perhaps make him think twice before trying it again.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Andrea
>
>
> At 11:53 PM 5/03/2004, Geesje and Steve wrote:
> >Hi,
> >Why do obstetrcians not see this?
> >I'm hoping someone can help me. I'm sorry if I don't make much sense but
> >I'm very upset and full of emotions after witnessing a horrific twins
> >birth last night. It was the worst birth I've ever seen in the 20 years
> >that I have been in midwifery. My grandfather's vet did a gentler job
with
> >the cows! And to make it worse the obstetrician thought he had done a
> >brilliant job! He got both twins out within 8 minutes. On questioning
> >prior to the birth, on how long he would wait for the second twin to
> >engage he said that he aims to get the second twin out 5-10 minutes after
> >the first because this is what all the research advises. "If you wait
> >you're only waiting for trouble" . Silly me thought he was going to wait
> >at least one contraction to see what happened. How wrong I was.. .
> >Now if anyone keeps up with research, it's me! But I have not read that
it
> >is advisable to act, instead of wait to see if the second twin engages,
> >especially if they are both cephalic - like these twins were.
> >Can anyone tell me where I can find the research that states that an
> >epidural in a twin labour is best practice and the research  that states
> >that the second twin should be born (with of without force) as soon as
> >possible after the first. As well as any resaerch that disputes this.
> >Being Dutch and having worked as a homebirth midwife in Holland I have
> >always had reservations on supporting high risk births at home but after
> >seeing what happened last night I can fully understand why some women
seek
> >homebirths for high risk births.
> >Geesje
> >
> >
> >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
> >To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>list
> >Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 7:51 PM
> >Subject: [ozmidwifery] Quote of the Week
> >
> > From Midwifery Today: "H. Deutsch, a psychologist active in the 1940s,
> > knew that a

Re: [ozmidwifery] Quote of the Week - traumatic twin birth

[Andrea Robertson]

Hello Geesje,

When doctors start quoting the research like this, they are often talking 
"through their hat".
Since he is apparently up to date with the research, why not ask him to 
produce the evidence he is using as the basis for his practice? It 
shouldn't be up to you to find something to refute his claims, but his 
responsibility to provide the research he is using.

Doctors will get away with making these kinds of wild claims unless we 
start questioning them. I was contacted recently by an obstetrician who 
wanted to challenge something I have written in "Preparing for Birth: 
Mothers". He claimed that there was research that showed one of my 
statements was wrong and he said I should change what I have written "so 
that I am not scaring the women". I wrote a friendly reply, asking that he 
give me the reference he was quoting, so I could be sure to have my 
information correct. I pointed out that I would gladly make changes but 
would only do so if I had reliable research evidence. Until then, my book 
would remain unchanged.  I am still waiting to hear back from him!  My 
suspicion is that he didn't think I would call his bluff, but take "his 
word" for it.

How about trying this tack with this obstetrician. You could quite easily 
say that you want to make sure your practice is evidence based, and would 
welcome an update on this research that you must have missed. it would 
be interesting to see how he handles this! Challenging him in this way 
might also help you to feel a bit better about this awful outcome and 
perhaps make him think twice before trying it again.

Best wishes,

Andrea

At 11:53 PM 5/03/2004, Geesje and Steve wrote:
Hi,
Why do obstetrcians not see this?
I'm hoping someone can help me. I'm sorry if I don't make much sense but 
I'm very upset and full of emotions after witnessing a horrific twins 
birth last night. It was the worst birth I've ever seen in the 20 years 
that I have been in midwifery. My grandfather's vet did a gentler job with 
the cows! And to make it worse the obstetrician thought he had done a 
brilliant job! He got both twins out within 8 minutes. On questioning 
prior to the birth, on how long he would wait for the second twin to 
engage he said that he aims to get the second twin out 5-10 minutes after 
the first because this is what all the research advises. "If you wait 
you're only waiting for trouble" . Silly me thought he was going to wait 
at least one contraction to see what happened. How wrong I was.. .
Now if anyone keeps up with research, it's me! But I have not read that it 
is advisable to act, instead of wait to see if the second twin engages, 
especially if they are both cephalic - like these twins were.
Can anyone tell me where I can find the research that states that an 
epidural in a twin labour is best practice and the research  that states 
that the second twin should be born (with of without force) as soon as 
possible after the first. As well as any resaerch that disputes this.
Being Dutch and having worked as a homebirth midwife in Holland I have 
always had reservations on supporting high risk births at home but after 
seeing what happened last night I can fully understand why some women seek 
homebirths for high risk births.
Geesje

From: Mary Murphy
To: list
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 7:51 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Quote of the Week
From Midwifery Today: "H. Deutsch, a psychologist active in the 1940s, 
knew that at the time of birth, it is not just a vagina that is opening, 
the woman's entire psyche is open and vulnerable."


-
Andrea Robertson
Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth Education
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.birthinternational.com
--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.