Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
ÿþ< ! D O C T Y P E H T M L P U B L I C " - / / W 3 C / / D T D H T M L 4 . 0 T r a n s i t i o n a l / / E N " >
< H T M L > < H E A D >
< M E T A c o n t e n t = " t e x t / h t m l ; c h a r s e t = u n i c o d e " h t t p - e q u i v = C o n t e n t - T y p e >
< M E T A c o n t e n t = " M S H T M L 5 . 0 0 . 2 6 1 4 . 3 5 0 0 " n a m e = G E N E R A T O R >
< S T Y L E > < / S T Y L E >
< / H E A D >
< B O D Y b g C o l o r = # f f f f f f >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > D e a r S o n j a < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > S t a y o f g o o d c h e e r a n d c h e e k y - I l o v e r e g u l a r
d o s e s o f c h e e k i n f a c t I a m g o i n g i n t o w i t h d r a w a l ? < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > < B R > D o w h a t y o u n e e d t o s t a y t r u e t o
y o u ! < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > A n d t h e p a y i s n o t i t ! < B R > L o v e < B R > f r o m a n o t h e r
i r r e v e r a n t m i d w i f e < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > d e n i s e < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< B L O C K Q U O T E
s t y l e = " B O R D E R - L E F T : # 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 p x s o l i d ; M A R G I N - L E F T : 5 p x ; M A R G I N - R I G H T : 0 p x ; P A D D I N G - L E F T : 5 p x ; P A D D I N G - R I G H T : 0 p x " >
< D I V s t y l e = " F O N T : 1 0 p t a r i a l " > - - - - - O r i g i n a l M e s s a g e - - - - - < / D I V >
< D I V
s t y l e = " B A C K G R O U N D : # e 4 e 4 e 4 ; F O N T : 1 0 p t a r i a l ; f o n t - c o l o r : b l a c k " > < B > F r o m : < / B >
< A h r e f = " m a i l t o : b a z s o n @ o z e m a i l . c o m . a u " t i t l e = b a z s o n @ o z e m a i l . c o m . a u > B a r r y
M a c G r e g o r < / A > < / D I V >
< D I V s t y l e = " F O N T : 1 0 p t a r i a l " > < B > T o : < / B > < A
h r e f = " m a i l t o : o z m i d w i f e r y @ a c e g r a p h i c s . c o m . a u "
t i t l e = o z m i d w i f e r y @ a c e g r a p h i c s . c o m . a u > o z m i d w i f e r y @ a c e g r a p h i c s . c o m . a u < / A > < / D I V >
< D I V s t y l e = " F O N T : 1 0 p t a r i a l " > < B > S e n t : < / B > M o n d a y , D e c e m b e r 0 2 , 2 0 0 2 9 : 4 0
A M < / D I V >
< D I V s t y l e = " F O N T : 1 0 p t a r i a l " > < B > S u b j e c t : < / B > R e : [ o z m i d w i f e r y ] R e T i n a ' s
r e s p o n s e t o D e n i s e < / D I V >
< D I V > < B R > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > D e a r D e n i s e ! < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > W h a t m o r e c a n I s a y o t h e r t h a n I a m c u r r e n t l y
b a n g i n g m y h e a d a g a i n s t a v e r y h a r d w a l l ( e g . w o r k i n g ) i n a l a r g e " w e a r e a
h i g h r i s k u n i t y o u k n o w " ( t h e i r w o r d s ) t e r t i a r y t r a i n i n g h o s p i t a l . & n b s p ; O n l y
g r a d u a t e d M i d d i l a s t J u l y a n d a m h o p i n g t o l e a v e t h i s v e r y s p e c i a l p l a c e
b e c a u s e I a m t e r r i f i e d t h a t I w i l l e n d u p t h i n k i n g l i k e t h e m . & n b s p ; N o
d i s r e s p e c t a s s o m e o f t h e s e m i d w i v e s a r e f a n t a s t i c , j u s t d o n ' t w a n t t o b e a
h i g h r i s k o b s t e t r i c n u r s e ! & n b s p ; W h e n I g r o w u p I w a n t t o b e a n I n d e p e n d e n t
M i d w i f e . & n b s p ; < / F O N T > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > T h i s i d e a w a s r e i n f o r c e d b y
l e a r n i n g f r o m o n e o f t h e b e s t . & n b s p ; < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > A l w a y s h a d a t h i n g a b o u t u n i f o r m s , m y i d e a s a r e
t h a t t h e y s q u a s h c r e a t i v i t y a n d i n d i v i d u a l i t y e v e n t h o u g h l i k e y o u s a i d n o o n e
k n o w s a n E N f r o m a M i d w i f e , o r e v e n t h e C l e a n e r . & n b s p ; M a y b e i t s h o u l d b e
b a s e d & n b s p ; o n r a t e s o f p a y
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
ÿþ< ! D O C T Y P E H T M L P U B L I C " - / / W 3 C / / D T D H T M L 4 . 0 T r a n s i t i o n a l / / E N " > < H T M L > < H E A D > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " t e x t / h t m l ; c h a r s e t = u n i c o d e " h t t p - e q u i v = C o n t e n t - T y p e > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " M S H T M L 5 . 0 0 . 2 0 1 4 . 2 1 0 " n a m e = G E N E R A T O R > < S T Y L E > < / S T Y L E > < / H E A D > < B O D Y b g C o l o r = # f f f f f f > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > D e a r D e n i s e ! < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > W h a t m o r e c a n I s a y o t h e r t h a n I a m c u r r e n t l y b a n g i n g m y h e a d a g a i n s t a v e r y h a r d w a l l ( e g . w o r k i n g ) i n a l a r g e " w e a r e a h i g h r i s k u n i t y o u k n o w " ( t h e i r w o r d s ) t e r t i a r y t r a i n i n g h o s p i t a l . & n b s p ; O n l y g r a d u a t e d M i d d i l a s t J u l y a n d a m h o p i n g t o l e a v e t h i s v e r y s p e c i a l p l a c e b e c a u s e I a m t e r r i f i e d t h a t I w i l l e n d u p t h i n k i n g l i k e t h e m . & n b s p ; N o d i s r e s p e c t a s s o m e o f t h e s e m i d w i v e s a r e f a n t a s t i c , j u s t d o n ' t w a n t t o b e a h i g h r i s k o b s t e t r i c n u r s e ! & n b s p ; W h e n I g r o w u p I w a n t t o b e a n I n d e p e n d e n t M i d w i f e . & n b s p ; < / F O N T > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > T h i s i d e a w a s r e i n f o r c e d b y l e a r n i n g f r o m o n e o f t h e b e s t . & n b s p ; < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > A l w a y s h a d a t h i n g a b o u t u n i f o r m s , m y i d e a s a r e t h a t t h e y s q u a s h c r e a t i v i t y a n d i n d i v i d u a l i t y e v e n t h o u g h l i k e y o u s a i d n o o n e k n o w s a n E N f r o m a M i d w i f e , o r e v e n t h e C l e a n e r . & n b s p ; M a y b e i t s h o u l d b e b a s e d & n b s p ; o n r a t e s o f p a y a s l a s t y e a r I w a s p a i d t h e s a m e a s t h e c l e a n e r , t h i s y e a r t h e s a m e a s a C i n e m a U s h e r b u t I d o n ' t g e t t o w a t c h t h e m o v i e s a n d s o m e o f t h e i r u n i f o r m s a r e m u c h n i c e r t h a n o u r s . & n b s p ; B e t t e r s t o p r a m b l i n g . < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > H o w e v e r , w h e n s o m e o n e c o m e s t o o u r d e s k a n d a s k s f o r a n u r s e I a l w a y s t e l l t h e m t h a t t h e y w i l l n o t f i n d o n e h e r e b u t t h a t w e h a v e p l e n t y o f m i d w i v e s . & n b s p ; I a m s u r e & n b s p ; t h a t m u c h e y e r o l l i n g g o e s o n i n t h e b a c k g r o u n d . & n b s p ; N e v e r t h o u g h t I w a s a n u r s e e v e n t h o u g h I d i d B N u r s e f i r s t , n o B M i d h e r e i n N S W a n d d i d n ' t w a n t t o w a i t u n l e s s i t n e v e r e v e n t u a t e d . & n b s p ; I d i d n ' t a c t u a l l y e v e r w o r k a s a R N s o d o n ' t e v e n s e e h o w c o m e h i s h a s t o b e o n m y n a m e b a d g e , e v e n t h o u g h I a m p r o u d o f f i n i s h i n g t h i s d e g r e e . < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > < / F O N T > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > L a s t l y , w i t h o u t m e a n i n g t o o f f e n d a n y o n e , I c a l l l a d i e s , w o m e n e t c , b i r d s ! & n b s p ; V e r y i n c o r r e c t b u t b a d h a b i t s d i e h a r d . & n b s p ; O n e o f m y f a v o u r i t e t h i n g s i s t o c a t c h u p w i t h t h e b i r d s f o r l u n c h , d i n n e r a n d e s p e c i a l l y a b o t t l e o f v i n o ! < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > L o v e S o n j a < / F O N T > < / D I V > < / B O D Y > < / H T M L >
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
dear Tina I congratulate not only on your belief but more importantly that it leads you to act and I am cheered by it and the cohesion of the BMid group!I also have the same hopethough my experiences have jaded me I still act and beleive that good things will come not only to our profession but more importantly for the women, families and community with whom and in which we work such that cohesion, a sense and lived experience of community and acceptance of difference will increase!! Denise - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise In a message dated 29/11/02 9:51:41 AM AUS Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The reality is we will not get the profession together as a wholeI understand many NZ fought and are still not taking the opportunities of the changes there!As one who has been on state and national ACMI executives even those small gatherings of midwives under specified goals can not be together!!Hi Denise...thanks for your response...I concede you'll never get one hundred percent concensus on any issuebut a sense of collective action and responsibility in the professions and women's best interests is all I think any of us ask for.would you not agree?? I find what you have said really sad and disappointing for midwifery. The lack of unity within the profession as always been my issue with midwives...as a consumer and now a midwife studentI think if you went back through the ozmid archives...the bulk of my postings over the last few years has been either directly or indirectly on this very issueAt the B Mid Student Collectivewe have developed a real sense of COLLECTIVE responsibility for our professionyes we are all individuals..each with our own personal aspirations etc...we are a rich and diverse collective of midwife students, aspiring midwives and our supporters...who have different opinions, stands etc...yet what we have aimed to create is that sense of collective responsibilty for who and what we areI sensed along time ago that this is what was needed in midwifery...the need for midwives to look beyond their own little patch...and take in the bigger picturesometimes we need to sacrifice some personal gain for the "greater good"My vision in convening the Collective was to do just thisget us B Midders all talking to each other from the very beginning...discussing things with each other openly and honestlythrashing out our differences...bringing together our commonalitiesbut all within the context of a collective responsibilty t! ! o the profession of midwifery and the women we serveit is working wonderfully...perhaps other collective members might like to add their perceptionsbut I can see that the new midwife comes to her profession well informed, politicised and has a fundamental belief in Collective action and responsibility not just to herself, the women, but to her professionI sensed the beginnings of this collective responsibility a while ago...in the basement of the RWH in Melbourne.where midwives and women gathered at a public forum to discuss the development and implementation of the Bachelor Of Midwifery...yes individuals had different personal and profession stances on this issue..but look what progress has been made when a sense of Collective responsibility for the profession is fostered and nuturedthe ACMI B Mid task force is another example of a collective of wonderful midwives, who put aside their personal bias for the "greater good" of the profession...who could see that they had a resoponsibility to ensure that midiwfery education in this country refected both national and international standardscollective action, and a sense of collective responsibility is powerful when it happenswe need to build on all this good work to further develop and see NMAP realised. Thats all I was trying to say...yours in reforming midwiferyTina Petttigrew.Bachelor of Midwifery StudentVictoria University
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
From a consumer point of view - I was very fortuneate when I had my birth centre birth recently to have a midwife who had no qualms in accepting what I wanted for my delivery despite the fact that it was totally against a number of the hospital's standard policies for VBAC women. I laboured without continuous monitoring or a drip, without a supervising obstetrician and had a waterbirth. When I was admitted she did not inform the registrar of my arrival (another standard protocol for VBACs) as she felt it more important to be with me during my perfectly normal and fast progressing labour rather than running off to find some doctor - and I thank her for it. We had discussed responsibility during one of my antenatal visits and I advised her that I knew what I wanted, had read the medical risks and benefits and it was my choice. I wanted her to support me in these informed choices and indicated that I felt responsible for my choices. She consequently also accepted these responsibilities in relation to how they interacted with the hospital policy. The outcome for me was a stress free birth as I did not have to argue with anyone and because I had a midwife who I knew would always be there for me (not for some doctor or hospital policy) and therefore this trust meant that if she had suggested something that was outside of our birthplan I felt confident it would only be undertaken if absolutely medically necessary. So to those of you who are brave enough to accept the responsibility in order to ensure your "mothers" have the best possible delivery I salute you, and to those who do not yet do this then please consider it as the difference it makes to the midwife/mother trust relationship and therefore labour progress and emotional outcomeis very real. DebbyMSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
as midwives we must stop declaring ourselves as victims of circumstance and become the architects of our own transformation Tina Pettigrew I believe that this is the key for any hope in implementing NMAP. Until we see how we could be as midwives, autonomous respected professionals, NMAP wont happen. We must stand together as midwives and support each midwife in her chosen place so that women can then find the safe place for each individual to birth in. Safe in that the woman will feel safe to birth in her own power. Unfortunately the ACMI was not able to draw the unifying energy together last year this was tragic. Sally Westbury
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
ÿþ< ! D O C T Y P E H T M L P U B L I C " - / / W 3 C / / D T D H T M L 4 . 0 T r a n s i t i o n a l / / E N " >
< H T M L > < H E A D >
< M E T A c o n t e n t = " t e x t / h t m l ; c h a r s e t = u n i c o d e " h t t p - e q u i v = C o n t e n t - T y p e >
< M E T A c o n t e n t = " M S H T M L 5 . 0 0 . 2 6 1 4 . 3 5 0 0 " n a m e = G E N E R A T O R >
< S T Y L E > < / S T Y L E >
< / H E A D >
< B O D Y b g C o l o r = # f f f f f f >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > D e a r S o n j a < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > I w o n d e r w h e r e y o u a r e ? < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > I a l s o & n b s p ; f i n d t h i s a n d o t h e r h o s p i t a l s t a f f
b e h a v i o u r s i n t e r e s t i n g ! < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > H a v i n g b e e n i n e d u c a t i o n f o r q u i t e a f e w y e a r s I
h a v e n o t w o r n a u n i f o r m i n t h e c l i n i c a l a r e a f o r a d e c a d e a n d I e n s u r e p e o p l e
k n o w m y n a m e s t a t u s a n d w h a t i c a n d o f o r t h e m r e g a r d l e s s o f w h a t I
w e a r . < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > I w i s h i c o u l d s a y I h a v e e x p e r e i n c e d t h e s a m e f r o m
n u r s e s a n d m i d w i v e s e v e r y w h e r e ? < B R > < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > I n W A i t c o n f o u n d e d m e h o w m a n y n u r s e s , m i d w i v e s i n
h o s p i t a l s w e r e r e l u c t a n t t o g e t o u t o f ( u g l y ) w h i t e u n i f o r m s w h e n t h e y h a d , h a v e
t h e o p p o r t u n i t y a n d i n t o s l a c k s w i t h c o l o u r e d b l o u s e s ! < B R > H e r e i n S y d n e y
e v e r y o n e w e a r s t h e s a m e u n i f o r m s l a c k s / s k i r t s a n d c o l o u r e d t o p s o y o u c a n n o t
t e l l w h o i s a n E N , R N o r m i d w i f e ! < B R > T h e r e i s a s l i g h t v a r i a t i o n w i t h t h a t w o r n
b y n o n n u r s i n g s t a f f w h i c h t o t h e u n i n i t i a t e d i s n o t o b v i o u s w h i c h I f i n d
i n t e r e s t i n g ! < B R > < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > A l s o m a n y m i d w i v e s h e r e h a v e n a m e b a d g e s w h i c h o n l y
s a y R N a n d m a n y w r i t e i n t h e n o t e s u n d e r t h e h a n d w r i t t e n s u b h e a d i n g o f
" N u r s i n g " . < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > < / F O N T > & n b s p ; < / D I V >
< D I V > < F O N T f a c e = A r i a l s i z e = 2 > O t h e r s d o n o t c o r r e c t p e o p l e w h e n a d d r e s s e d a s
n u r s e s o r t a k e u m b r i d g e w h e n I p o i n t o u t I a m a m i d w i f e t o s o m e o n e w h o
a d d r e s s e s m e a s N u r s e ? ? < B R > A r e t h e s e F r e u d i a n s l i p s ? ? < B R > P e r s o n a l l y I t h i n k m o s t
f a i l C o m m u n i c a t i o n 1 0 1 ! < B R > D e n i s e < / F O N T > < / D I V >
< B L O C K Q U O T E
s t y l e = " B O R D E R - L E F T : # 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 p x s o l i d ; M A R G I N - L E F T : 5 p x ; M A R G I N - R I G H T : 0 p x ; P A D D I N G - L E F T : 5 p x ; P A D D I N G - R I G H T : 0 p x " >
< D I V s t y l e = " F O N T : 1 0 p t a r i a l " > - - - - - O r i g i n a l M e s s a g e - - - - - < / D I V >
< D I V
s t y l e = " B A C K G R O U N D : # e 4 e 4 e 4 ; F O N T : 1 0 p t a r i a l ; f o n t - c o l o r : b l a c k " > < B > F r o m : < / B >
< A h r e f = " m a i l t o : b a z s o n @ o z e m a i l . c o m . a u " t i t l e = b a z s o n @ o z e m a i l . c o m . a u > B a r r y
M a c G r e g o r < / A > < / D I V >
< D I V s t y l e = " F O N T : 1 0 p t a r i a l " > < B > T o : < / B > < A
h r e f = " m a i l t o : o z m i d w i f e r y @ a c e g r a p h i c s . c o m . a u "
t i t l e = o z m i d w i f e r y @ a c e g r a p h i c s . c o m . a u > o z m i d w i f e r y @ a c e g r a p h i c s . c o m . a u < / A > < / D I V >
< D I V
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
DEAR TINA REGARDING YOUR COMMENT as midwives we must stop declaring ourselves as victims of circumstance and become the architects of our own transformation.NMAP is a way forward here but the profession as a whole needs to demand itnot just the enlighten fewSorry about the caps The reality is we will not get the profession together as a whole I understandmany NZ fought and are still not taking the opportunities of the changes there! As one who has been on state and national ACMI executives even those small gatherings of midwives under specified goals can not be together!! it is up to those of us who believe in NMAP (for example) to act and act effectively to bring it to fruition and as in NZ it needs to be in collaboration with consumers in the political arena!denise - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise In a message dated 27/11/02 10:53:05 PM AUS Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear TinaHow wonderful and honest you are. I think the most difficult thing for midwives who work in this model is the inability to have autonomy as we know it because of perpetuation of a model using fear as the major component. The biggest issue is really the education process. Most of our colleagues who work within this and similar models do not really have the opportunity to work with women as we know they can.Denise wroteOver all what I am getting at is I feel the imperative is to change the experience for midwives, the circumstances under which at least some midwives practice. All of us need to demand the recognition of continuity of carer midwiferyrather than accept what is offered as only possible!There are many precedents outside of nursing models and awardsHello Robyn and Deniseyes your both absolutely rightsometimes I forget that I come from a different placewhen you have always worked 'with woman' in a holistic way...without the fear factor...coming to birth and working with women from that place of trust and honesty...building that relationship over months and months.I haven't really done it any other way...you do forget that this is not where the majority of the midwifery world comes from and I must admit to being a little blinkered in that sense...Both of you have touched on the education factor and experiences for midwives...I agree Robyn...if every midwife student could experience birth outside the systemit would drastically change the way they view birth and midwifery and build that trust and confidenceDeniseyes we have had tertiary education for some time nowprior to beginning the B Mid I use to get the opportunity to go and speak with under graduate nursing students and post grad midwife students about CBE and birth etc...and many many of them always spoke of their frustration and confusion with what they were taught in theory and what actually happens in practicethe two rarely matched. Sometimes the education students receive can powerfully reinforce the medical model too, I have experienced this myself.our educators must come from that continuity philosophy inorder to inspire studentsnot just in a theoretical sense either...as students we knowit is so easy to tell which educators have worked in a continuity model and which ones have nottheory is all well and goodbut the lived experiences do enhance the educators role :-))Marilyns suggestion of role models I think is really wonderful...I think we all touched on this in the discussion about working in caseload modelsits much easier to encourage midwives to look outside the square if they can see that those that do can survive...women love it etcThe medical model is very powerfulI grant that...and I credit the many midwives who work within its constraints on a daily basis...there's nothing like the systematic cattle yard approach to care still very prevalent in our maternity care models...to stifle one's "creativity"but I am a firm believer that if midwives banded together as a united front with their greatest allies womenwe could make real changes...the lack of unity by many midwives I witnessed in Brisbane last year for their profession when the ACMI put an insurance offer on the table was a very sad day in Australia's midwifery 'herstory'as midwives we must stop declaring ourselves as victims of circumstance and become the architects of our own transformation.NMAP is a way forward here but the profession as a whole needs to demand itnot just the enlighten fewYours in reforming midwiferyTina PettigrewBachelor Midwifery StudentVictoria University
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
In a message dated 28/11/02 9:11:56 PM AUS Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So to those of you who are brave enough to accept the responsibility in order to ensure your "mothers" have the best possible delivery I salute you, and to those who do not yet do this then please consider it as the difference it makes to the midwife/mother trust relationship and therefore labour progress and emotional outcome is very real. Debby HI Debby... thanks for your sharing...your story epitomises what happens when midwives and women trust and honour each other...thank you yours in reforming midwifery Tina Pettigrew.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
In a message dated 29/11/02 9:51:41 AM AUS Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The reality is we will not get the profession together as a whole I understand many NZ fought and are still not taking the opportunities of the changes there! As one who has been on state and national ACMI executives even those small gatherings of midwives under specified goals can not be together!! Hi Denise...thanks for your response...I concede you'll never get one hundred percent concensus on any issuebut a sense of collective action and responsibility in the professions and women's best interests is all I think any of us ask for.would you not agree?? I find what you have said really sad and disappointing for midwifery. The lack of unity within the profession as always been my issue with midwives...as a consumer and now a midwife studentI think if you went back through the ozmid archives...the bulk of my postings over the last few years has been either directly or indirectly on this very issue. ...At the B Mid Student Collectivewe have developed a real sense of COLLECTIVE responsibility for our professionyes we are all individuals..each with our own personal aspirations etc...we are a rich and diverse collective of midwife students, aspiring midwives and our supporters...who have different opinions, stands etc...yet what we have aimed to create is that sense of collective responsibilty for who and what we areI sensed along time ago that this is what was needed in midwifery...the need for midwives to look beyond their own little patch...and take in the bigger picturesometimes we need to sacrifice some personal gain for the "greater good"My vision in convening the Collective was to do just thisget us B Midders all talking to each other from the very beginning...discussing things with each other openly and honestlythrashing out our differences...bringing together our commonalitiesbut all within the context of a collective responsibilty t! ! o the profession of midwifery and the women we serveit is working wonderfully...perhaps other collective members might like to add their perceptionsbut I can see that the new midwife comes to her profession well informed, politicised and has a fundamental belief in Collective action and responsibility not just to herself, the women, but to her profession I sensed the beginnings of this collective responsibility a while ago...in the basement of the RWH in Melbourne.where midwives and women gathered at a public forum to discuss the development and implementation of the Bachelor Of Midwifery...yes individuals had different personal and profession stances on this issue..but look what progress has been made when a sense of Collective responsibility for the profession is fostered and nuturedthe ACMI B Mid task force is another example of a collective of wonderful midwives, who put aside their personal bias for the "greater good" of the profession...who could see that they had a resoponsibility to ensure that midiwfery education in this country refected both national and international standardscollective action, and a sense of collective responsibility is powerful when it happenswe need to build on all this good work to further develop and see NMAP realised. Thats all I was trying to say... yours in reforming midwifery Tina Petttigrew. Bachelor of Midwifery Student Victoria University
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
Debby This is a wonderful story. Can you let the Area Health Service (go right to the top first) know of your experience and utter satisfaction. If there are more women who have had the same or similar experience they could join you. Let someone high up know how you and your midwife worked in harmony to achieve your goals. Congratulations. Robyn www.melbmidwifery.com.au -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Debby MSent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 9:08 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise From a consumer point of view - I was very fortuneate when I had my birth centre birth recently to have a midwife who had no qualms in accepting what I wanted for my delivery despite the fact that it was totally against a number of the hospital's standard policies for VBAC women. I laboured without continuous monitoring or a drip, without a supervising obstetrician and had a waterbirth. When I was admitted she did not inform the registrar of my arrival (another standard protocol for VBACs) as she felt it more important to be with me during my perfectly normal and fast progressing labour rather than running off to find some doctor - and I thank her for it. We had discussed responsibility during one of my antenatal visits and I advised her that I knew what I wanted, had read the medical risks and benefits and it was my choice. I wanted her to support me in these informed choices and indicated that I felt responsible for my choices. She consequently also accepted these responsibilities in relation to how they interacted with the hospital policy. The outcome for me was a stress free birth as I did not have to argue with anyone and because I had a midwife who I knew would always be there for me (not for some doctor or hospital policy) and therefore this trust meant that if she had suggested something that was outside of our birthplan I felt confident it would only be undertaken if absolutely medically necessary. So to those of you who are brave enough to accept the responsibility in order to ensure your "mothers" have the best possible delivery I salute you, and to those who do not yet do this then please consider it as the difference it makes to the midwife/mother trust relationship and therefore labour progress and emotional outcomeis very real. Debby MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
OK This is my suggestion. Long and hard but worth the try. Why don't we through Ozmidwifery organise an outstanding NATIONAL CONFERENCE with All the interested and supportive groups (lead my Maternity Coalition and NMAP). Invite the most effective members of Parliament and all the Area Chief Executive Officers and many doctors, invite overseas speaker who have made such changes in their country. Invite universities and educators from all areas.Even the NZ Prime Minister would be helpful. Invite the major insurance companies. Don't wait any longer, we are all talking about being united, set some plans now and start working on it in the New Year so we can set some dates. Who is interested in this united front? Robyn www.melbmidwifery.com.au -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Sally WestburySent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 10:56 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise as midwives we must stop declaring ourselves as victims of circumstance and become the architects of our own transformation Tina Pettigrew I believe that this is the key for any hope in implementing NMAP. Until we see how we could be as midwives, autonomous respected professionals, NMAP wont happen. We must stand together as midwives and support each midwife in her chosen place so that women can then find the safe place for each individual to birth in. Safe in that the woman will feel safe to birth in her own power. Unfortunately the ACMI was not able to draw the unifying energy together last year this was tragic. Sally Westbury
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
Excellent idea. I am all for it. marilyn - Original Message - From: Robyn Thompson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 7:37 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise OK This is my suggestion. Long and hard but worth the try. Why don't we through Ozmidwifery organise an outstanding NATIONAL CONFERENCE with All the interested and supportive groups (lead my Maternity Coalition and NMAP). Invite the most effective members of Parliament and all the Area Chief Executive Officers and many doctors, invite overseas speaker who have made such changes in their country. Invite universities and educators from all areas.Even the NZ Prime Minister would be helpful. Invite the major insurance companies. Don't wait any longer, we are all talking about being united, set some plans now and start working on it in the New Year so we can set some dates. Who is interested in this united front? Robyn www.melbmidwifery.com.au -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Sally WestburySent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 10:56 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise as midwives we must stop declaring ourselves as victims of circumstance and become the architects of our own transformation Tina Pettigrew I believe that this is the key for any hope in implementing NMAP. Until we see how we could be as midwives, autonomous respected professionals, NMAP wont happen. We must stand together as midwives and support each midwife in her chosen place so that women can then find the safe place for each individual to birth in. Safe in that the woman will feel safe to birth in her own power. Unfortunately the ACMI was not able to draw the unifying energy together last year this was tragic. Sally Westbury
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
Dear Tina How wonderful and honest you are. I think the most difficult thing for midwives who work in this model is the inability to have autonomy as we know it because of perpetuation of a model using fear as the major component. The biggest issue is really the education process. Most of our colleagues who work within this and similar models do not really have the opportunity to work with women as we know they can. When the system changes to encourage midwives to work in the community with women in their homes they will then have the rounded experience that you and I have been fortunate to experience.I believe that all students should at least have the opportunity to spend some time with us outside the system. Ideal but necessary to change what goes on within. The other part of this issue is that women also need to be strong and the midwife needs to know exactly what the woman wants and expects. The midwife will feel very vulnerable if the the woman does not work in a very close relationship with her. That is where we have a much better opportunity because we develop a relationship with women over the whole pregnancy a true-one-to-one. That works to both the woman and midwife's advantage.Some midwives are desperate to give the care they believe is necessary for women butthe system stifles their creative skills. They arecontrolled by the power of medicine and this is the reality ofsystem that does not recognise the skills of the midwife. Our colleagues in the system are also up against the power of the bureaucracy and sometimes that is more difficult than the medical men. >From all aspects they become fear driven. It takes a very strong midwife to stand up to the restrictions imposed. My wish is that we can all have the opportunity to experience some time outside the system with midwives who are not controlled by the systematic model of care and the restrictions imposed on them. I want this to happen before I pass on, and right now the years are flying by. Keep you your wonderful work and let others feel your strength Tina. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Judy ChapmanSent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 3:31 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise Recently in working with a follow thru woman, I attended her pregnancy care visits to the hospitalher model of care was midwife-led care in a birthing unit.but I was amazed at how subordinate and not so midwife-led it was. Some of the midwives were in their care of the woman far happier to defer or abdicate decisions to the doctors inorder to 'keep the peace' and were very accepting of medical dominant policy/protocolWhile some of the midwives seem to embrace the whole responsibility/accountability thingmany do not...and would rather be seen in the handmaiden role in preference to accepting full responsibility for their midwife role. I suppose what I'm getting at here is if midwives don't see themselves differently to nurses...if midwives don't take themselves seriously as autonomous practitioners...if midwives don't have the trust and faith in their midwifery knowledge and skills to embrace responsibility and accountability...then how can we ask that anyone else doesbe it the government...the medical profession...the public..??? yours in reforming midwifery Tina Pettigrew Bachelor of Midwifery Student Victoria University I have to agree with you Tina. Our birth centre midwives are autonymous but I find the attitude you describe in the Birth Suite of the Women's Health Unit. There are some that try to step out but not enough. When I hear stories of other units I believe that ours is further down the track but still has a long way to go. I will have to leave them to it though as I go to Mareeba soon. I wrote recently about a woman booked for CS who birthed under her own steam. During the morning when I was getting to know her and finding out what she WANTED to do, she said she wanted a normal birth. I did the empowering thing of saying, among other things, they can't do a CS if she doesn't sign the consent, she said "Already done yesterday in preadmission". I got the form and gave it to her and she tore it up. Great. NOW not able to do a CS without further explanation. As it was she progressed and pushed well and is a happy woman after a normal birth. Judy The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
In a message dated 27/11/02 10:53:05 PM AUS Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Tina How wonderful and honest you are. I think the most difficult thing for midwives who work in this model is the inability to have autonomy as we know it because of perpetuation of a model using fear as the major component. The biggest issue is really the education process. Most of our colleagues who work within this and similar models do not really have the opportunity to work with women as we know they can. Denise wrote Over all what I am getting at is I feel the imperative is to change the experience for midwives, the circumstances under which at least some midwives practice. All of us need to demand the recognition of continuity of carer midwiferyrather than accept what is offered as only possible! There are many precedents outside of nursing models and awards Hello Robyn and Denise yes your both absolutely rightsometimes I forget that I come from a different placewhen you have always worked 'with woman' in a holistic way...without the fear factor...coming to birth and working with women from that place of trust and honesty...building that relationship over months and months.I haven't really done it any other way...you do forget that this is not where the majority of the midwifery world comes from and I must admit to being a little blinkered in that sense... Both of you have touched on the education factor and experiences for midwives...I agree Robyn...if every midwife student could experience birth outside the systemit would drastically change the way they view birth and midwifery and build that trust and confidenceDeniseyes we have had tertiary education for some time nowprior to beginning the B Mid I use to get the opportunity to go and speak with under graduate nursing students and post grad midwife students about CBE and birth etc...and many many of them always spoke of their frustration and confusion with what they were taught in theory and what actually happens in practicethe two rarely matched. Sometimes the education students receive can powerfully reinforce the medical model too, I have experienced this myself.our educators must come from that continuity philosophy inorder to inspire studentsnot just in a theoretical sense either...as students we knowit is so easy to tell which educators have worked in a continuity model and which ones have nottheory is all well and goodbut the lived experiences do enhance the educators role :-)) Marilyns suggestion of role models I think is really wonderful...I think we all touched on this in the discussion about working in caseload modelsits much easier to encourage midwives to look outside the square if they can see that those that do can survive...women love it etc The medical model is very powerfulI grant that...and I credit the many midwives who work within its constraints on a daily basis...there's nothing like the systematic cattle yard approach to care still very prevalent in our maternity care models...to stifle one's "creativity"but I am a firm believer that if midwives banded together as a united front with their greatest allies womenwe could make real changes...the lack of unity by many midwives I witnessed in Brisbane last year for their profession when the ACMI put an insurance offer on the table was a very sad day in Australia's midwifery 'herstory'as midwives we must stop declaring ourselves as victims of circumstance and become the architects of our own transformation.NMAP is a way forward here but the profession as a whole needs to demand itnot just the enlighten few Yours in reforming midwifery Tina Pettigrew Bachelor Midwifery Student Victoria University
[ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
Recently in working with a follow thru woman, I attended her pregnancy care visits to the hospitalher model of care was midwife-led care in a birthing unit.but I was amazed at how subordinate and not so midwife-led it was. Some of the midwives were in their care of the woman far happier to defer or abdicate decisions to the doctors inorder to 'keep the peace' and were very accepting of medical dominant policy/protocolWhile some of the midwives seem to embrace the whole responsibility/accountability thingmany do not...and would rather be seen in the handmaiden role in preference to accepting full responsibility for their midwife role. I suppose what I'm getting at here is if midwives don't see themselves differently to nurses...if midwives don't take themselves seriously as autonomous practitioners...if midwives don't have the trust and faith in their midwifery knowledge and skills to embrace responsibility and accountability...then how can we ask that anyone else doesbe it the government...the medical profession...the public..??? yours in reforming midwifery Tina Pettigrew Bachelor of Midwifery Student Victoria University I have to agree with you Tina. Our birth centre midwives are autonymous but I find the attitude you describe in the Birth Suite of the Women's Health Unit. There are some that try to step out but not enough. When I hear stories of other units I believe that ours is further down the track but still has a long way to go. I will have to leave them to it though as I go to Mareeba soon. I wrote recently about a woman booked for CS who birthed under her own steam. During the morning when I was getting to know her and finding out what she WANTED to do, she said she wanted a normal birth. I did the empowering thing of saying, among other things, they can't do a CS if she doesn't sign the consent, she said "Already done yesterday in preadmission". I got the form and gave it to her and she tore it up. Great. NOW not able to do a CS without further explanation. As it was she progressed and pushed well and is a happy woman after a normal birth. JudyThe new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re Tina's response to Denise While some of the midwives seem to embrace the whole responsibility/accountability thingmany do not...and would rather be seen in the handmaiden role in preference to accepting full responsibility for their midwife role. TIna - this is exactly the attitude that led to my being sectioned at 9.5 cm. I was in a Birth Centre where I trusted the midwives and believed they worked within a midwifery model of care. But it became all talk : I was abandoned while my mw watched the tennis and I thought I was dying. Plus I can tell anyone that Team Midwifery in a Birth Centre DOES NOT WORK. You cannot build a relationship with several women from a few 15 min appointments over the 9 mths. And even that is redundant when the woman who attends you is someone you have never met. And who obviously does not want to be there, at least not as a responsibile midwife, it seemed to me. I felt that by recommending an epidural, that she was free of me. Not a nice feeling - like I'd failed Birth Centre 101. I did the empowering thing of saying, among other things, they can't do a CS if she doesn't sign the consent, she said Already done yesterday in preadmission. I got the form and gave it to her and she tore it up. Judy - WOW, that is such an empowering and symbolic thing - to tear up the presigned CS consent form. I just got my records this week, which was quite an emotional thing, reading over them. And when I saw my CS Consent Form, I got so upset. There was my signature, all scrawled and distorted, and it lept out from the page at me. It seems to me like it was the last thing I wrote before I lost my innocence. I signed after 30 hrs of labour (22 hrs drug free), and I was in a bad way. In shock, confused, and surprised I was still alive, I still managed to sign my name. Must go - I am a bit upset. Melissa The new MSN 8: http://g.msn.com/8HMCEN/2018 smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
