RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Cheryl LHK]

Thanks Maureen for being eminently sensible and reminding us all to use 
common sense.  It annoys me that some midwives are so hard-nosed that the 
woman is set up for failure almost before they start.  Here's for a new 
start in 2005!

Happy Babies Everyone.
I'm not working New Years this year, but might get a chrissy baby if it's 
quick - late that night!

Cheryl
From: "Ken WArd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:21:59 +1100
Ok I expect to get shot down, but here goes. A baby who is hungry, refusing
the breast , no colostrum apparent, a stressed, crying mother who is
considering bottle feeding. What's best?  Keep on trying to attach a
fighting baby, mum in tears or a comp feed, settle both for a sleep,and try
again next feed? I have seen this, babies wake, eager for a feed, mum's had
a rest, and is more relaxed. Baby attaches with little fuss. Then there's
the baby who has lost weight, looks hungry, poor out-put. Mum needs her 
milk
supply built-up. This requires good food, rest and a relaxed mum. 
Expressing
pc helps, as does a comp to settle baby and eas4e mum's mind. My first 3
were all comped for the first couple of days, no confusion, no probs with
attachment. I was more rested and it all went naturally. No allergies. No. 
4
child, different story. I knew so much, this baby was going to be fully 
B/F.
Ha. Fed on demand, problem was this baby didn't wake for feeds, I was of 
the
"she'll wake when she's hungry" school. Three weeks later below birth
weight, hardly weeing, no poos. She has dairy milk protein allergy
I also attended a very interesting talk by a genetic counsellor from the
NBST people. Certain enzymes require protein and if baby doest feed it can
die. I forget all the details, but the info was on the net. I'm sure some
one out there knows a lot more.
I support BF. I would have loved to have fed for a couple of years. But I 
do
feel that the "all or nothing" attitude sets women up to fail.
I have seen babies who have been chronically under bf. Scrawny, whiney and
constantly fiddling at the breast. Not sleeping well, tired looking.  I 
will
not comp a baby just because it's unsettled, I have read  Maureen Minchin's
books and attended her lectures and have done the LC course. Original
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 16 December 2004 10:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

>> I will tell her if I believe all is well, but there are times when a 
baby
> genuinely needs comping.  Maureen

Hi Maureen and anyone else who could enlighten me on the above comment 
about
there being times when a baby genuinely needs comping,

Could you please be more specific ie, at what times would a baby genuinely
need comping?
Thanks
Jayne

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[ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Anne Clarke]

Dear Alesa,
The evidence I have is that for over 600 births in the Birth Centre per 
annum we weigh our babies at birth and we weigh them again at approx.10 days 
later at their postnatal check up and we have never had a problem.  Our mums 
go home by 24 hrs too, unless they or their baby is unwell.

I am not saying that babies are not having any problems but we pick them up 
sooner and deal with them immediately without the babies being compromised 
and we still don't weigh them we look at their feeding and their output - 
much better and it has kept us in good stead these almost 10 years.  I do 
not have any memory of any of my clients babies loosing more than 10 per 
cent of their birth weight.

Just letting you know what I do and the outcomes that's all.
Regards,
Anne
- Original Message - 
From: "Alesa Koziol" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?


Dear Anne
Fully endorse your practice as sound, safe and yet still covering bases 
for
those infants that dont suckle direct.
I would like to continue this discussion to the management of those babes
who lose weight >10% on third day
...please don't inundate me with info on NOT weighing babes at all
whilst in hospital,  unless you have some great evidence I can use to
challenge that practice:)
Looking forward to the continuation of healthy dialogue
Cheers
Alesa

Alesa Koziol
Clinical Midwifery Educator
Melbourne
- Original Message -
From: "Anne Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

Dear All,
Regarding a (healthy, full term) baby feeding in the first 24 hrs. If the
babe has had a feed soon after birth we do not worry for at least 12+ 
hrs.
NEVER EVER take a BSL unless baby is symptomatic.  This has never 
occurred
though.

If babe has not had a feed soon after birth we express mum and give via
cup
or syringe a couple of hours or so after birth.
If babe is hungry and has not attached or whatever after the 12 hrs we
show
mum how to express and give via cup or syringe approximately 3-4 hrly
until
the baby attaches more often if the baby wants to feed more often of
course.
We send our mum's home with this plus we ring them at home or if they 
have
any queries they can call us (with a backup to a LC of course or our
breastfeeding clinic staffed by an LC) lots of skin to skin, babe near 
the
breast all the time so not to miss an 'opportunity' to have a feed and it
seems to work beautifully.

You cruel lot doing a BSL - stop it!!  The WHO recommendations say it is
not
necessary on a well, full term baby unless symptomatic.  Babies do not
become symptomatic if they feed regularly and if necessary by EBM, they
will
always swallow even if they won't suck.  It is suprising how many 'wake
up'
and feed with a few mouthfuls of EBM.
Anne Clarke
Brisbane
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RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[twiggy3]

Thanks Maureen,

I was genuinely interested and am not looking to shoot you down :)  I'm not a 
midwife but a birth/baby junkie so hear lots of stories so thank you for a 
midwive's side of the story.

Jayne

> Ok I expect to get shot down, but here goes. A baby who is hungry, refusing
> the breast , no colostrum apparent, a stressed, crying mother who is
> considering bottle feeding. What's best?  Keep on trying to attach a
> fighting baby, mum in tears or a comp feed, settle both for a sleep,and try
> again next feed? I have seen this, babies wake, eager for a feed, mum's had
> a rest, and is more relaxed. Baby attaches with little fuss. Then there's
> the baby who has lost weight, looks hungry, poor out-put. Mum needs her milk
> supply built-up. This requires good food, rest and a relaxed mum. Expressing
> pc helps, as does a comp to settle baby and eas4e mum's mind. My first 3
> were all comped for the first couple of days, no confusion, no probs with
> attachment. I was more rested and it all went naturally. No allergies. No. 4
> child, different story. I knew so much, this baby was going to be fully B/F.
> Ha. Fed on demand, problem was this baby didn't wake for feeds, I was of the
> "she'll wake when she's hungry" school. Three weeks later below birth
> weight, hardly weeing, no poos. She has dairy milk protein allergy
> I also attended a very interesting talk by a genetic counsellor from the
> NBST people. Certain enzymes require protein and if baby doest feed it can
> die. I forget all the details, but the info was on the net. I'm sure some
> one out there knows a lot more.
> I support BF. I would have loved to have fed for a couple of years. But I do
> feel that the "all or nothing" attitude sets women up to fail.
> I have seen babies who have been chronically under bf. Scrawny, whiney and
> constantly fiddling at the breast. Not sleeping well, tired looking.  I will
> not comp a baby just because it's unsettled, I have read  Maureen Minchin's
> books and attended her lectures and have done the LC course. Original
> Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, 16 December 2004 10:12 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?
> 
> 
> >> I will tell her if I believe all is well, but there are times when a baby
> > genuinely needs comping.  Maureen
> 
> 
> Hi Maureen and anyone else who could enlighten me on the above comment about
> there being times when a baby genuinely needs comping,
> 
> Could you please be more specific ie, at what times would a baby genuinely
> need comping?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jayne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
> 
> 
> --
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> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
> 




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RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Ken WArd]

Ok I expect to get shot down, but here goes. A baby who is hungry, refusing
the breast , no colostrum apparent, a stressed, crying mother who is
considering bottle feeding. What's best?  Keep on trying to attach a
fighting baby, mum in tears or a comp feed, settle both for a sleep,and try
again next feed? I have seen this, babies wake, eager for a feed, mum's had
a rest, and is more relaxed. Baby attaches with little fuss. Then there's
the baby who has lost weight, looks hungry, poor out-put. Mum needs her milk
supply built-up. This requires good food, rest and a relaxed mum. Expressing
pc helps, as does a comp to settle baby and eas4e mum's mind. My first 3
were all comped for the first couple of days, no confusion, no probs with
attachment. I was more rested and it all went naturally. No allergies. No. 4
child, different story. I knew so much, this baby was going to be fully B/F.
Ha. Fed on demand, problem was this baby didn't wake for feeds, I was of the
"she'll wake when she's hungry" school. Three weeks later below birth
weight, hardly weeing, no poos. She has dairy milk protein allergy
I also attended a very interesting talk by a genetic counsellor from the
NBST people. Certain enzymes require protein and if baby doest feed it can
die. I forget all the details, but the info was on the net. I'm sure some
one out there knows a lot more.
I support BF. I would have loved to have fed for a couple of years. But I do
feel that the "all or nothing" attitude sets women up to fail.
I have seen babies who have been chronically under bf. Scrawny, whiney and
constantly fiddling at the breast. Not sleeping well, tired looking.  I will
not comp a baby just because it's unsettled, I have read  Maureen Minchin's
books and attended her lectures and have done the LC course. Original
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 16 December 2004 10:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?


>> I will tell her if I believe all is well, but there are times when a baby
> genuinely needs comping.  Maureen


Hi Maureen and anyone else who could enlighten me on the above comment about
there being times when a baby genuinely needs comping,

Could you please be more specific ie, at what times would a baby genuinely
need comping?

Thanks

Jayne




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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Marilyn Kleidon]

Dear Maureen:

For what it is worth I totally agree with all you've said. Very common
scenarios.

regards

marilyn


- Original Message - 
From: "Ken WArd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:21 PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?


> Ok I expect to get shot down, but here goes. A baby who is hungry,
refusing
> the breast , no colostrum apparent, a stressed, crying mother who is
> considering bottle feeding. What's best?  Keep on trying to attach a
> fighting baby, mum in tears or a comp feed, settle both for a sleep,and
try
> again next feed? I have seen this, babies wake, eager for a feed, mum's
had
> a rest, and is more relaxed. Baby attaches with little fuss. Then there's
> the baby who has lost weight, looks hungry, poor out-put. Mum needs her
milk
> supply built-up. This requires good food, rest and a relaxed mum.
Expressing
> pc helps, as does a comp to settle baby and eas4e mum's mind. My first 3
> were all comped for the first couple of days, no confusion, no probs with
> attachment. I was more rested and it all went naturally. No allergies. No.
4
> child, different story. I knew so much, this baby was going to be fully
B/F.
> Ha. Fed on demand, problem was this baby didn't wake for feeds, I was of
the
> "she'll wake when she's hungry" school. Three weeks later below birth
> weight, hardly weeing, no poos. She has dairy milk protein allergy
> I also attended a very interesting talk by a genetic counsellor from the
> NBST people. Certain enzymes require protein and if baby doest feed it can
> die. I forget all the details, but the info was on the net. I'm sure some
> one out there knows a lot more.
> I support BF. I would have loved to have fed for a couple of years. But I
do
> feel that the "all or nothing" attitude sets women up to fail.
> I have seen babies who have been chronically under bf. Scrawny, whiney and
> constantly fiddling at the breast. Not sleeping well, tired looking.  I
will
> not comp a baby just because it's unsettled, I have read  Maureen
Minchin's
> books and attended her lectures and have done the LC course. Original
> Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, 16 December 2004 10:12 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?
>
>
> >> I will tell her if I believe all is well, but there are times when a
baby
> > genuinely needs comping.  Maureen
>
>
> Hi Maureen and anyone else who could enlighten me on the above comment
about
> there being times when a baby genuinely needs comping,
>
> Could you please be more specific ie, at what times would a baby genuinely
> need comping?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jayne
>
>
>
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
>
> --
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> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.


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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Marilyn Kleidon]

I would think a baby generally needs comping when all is not well. This can
present in a variety of ways at various times. Recently came on to special
in HDU a young woman who had birthed over night (approximately 12 hours
previously), spontaneous vaginal birth but pre-eclamptic in labour, Mg SO4
infusion etc.. Baby had birthed through mec liq but was vigorous with  good
apgars so was with mum and had "fed" on and off since the birth though not
within the first couple of hours of birth as refused at this time.

So, I assisted mum (she had lots of IV tubes etc..) with  three attachments
in the first couple of hours of my shift and became concerned as did mum
with the increasing irritability (though only when not attached well to the
breast) and slight (really very slight) jitteryness of the baby. Good temp
maintenance, resps and HR. Unable to express colostrum when assisting with
attachment. So, I recommended to mum we check baby's bsl and she agreed: 0.6
mmol  I kid you not! Double checked (sample to path)as amongst other things
baby did not seem symptomatic of such a low bsl. So baby straight to SCBU,
comps and IV dextrose. It took the rest of the day shift for baby's bsl's to
be close to 2.5mmol.

We can only hope baby is neurologically fine. Baby had not appeared to have
seizures.  This is one baby (I think)who would have benefitted from 3/24
bsl's. Mum was not GDM though had had GTT due to family hx of diabetes and
was NOT glucose impaired, normal weight at booking , baby 37+ weeks and
around 3kg, first baby, young healthy mother. The only thing not normal was
the sudden onset of pre-eclampsia in labour with really elevated lft's etc..
Despite this baby appeared to tolerate labour and birth well despite the mec
liq. In hind-sight I would say the mec liq was actually an indication of the
baby's stress and in this case would have been a reason to do 3/24 bsl's as
well as the TPR's. Would just like to add that pre-eclampsia etc.. in labour
is not necessarily a indicator as the mum and baby in the bed beside this
mum had a very similar situation just no mec liq. That baby fed and slept
all day shift and had colostrum dripping from lips and mum's nipples after
feeds.

Just wanted to say I can understand the 3/24 or similar protocols for bsl's
especially after complicated births (even if the actual birth is
"spontaneous vaginal") as sometimes the signs and symptoms can be subtle and
may be "normalised" through shift changes.  Maybe I just feel bad I didn't
rush the baby off for a bsl as soon as I came on or at least sooner than I
did!

marilyn
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?


> >> I will tell her if I believe all is well, but there are times when a
baby
> > genuinely needs comping.  Maureen
>
>
> Hi Maureen and anyone else who could enlighten me on the above comment
about
> there being times when a baby genuinely needs comping,
>
> Could you please be more specific ie, at what times would a baby genuinely
> need comping?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jayne
>
>
>
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>


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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Denise Hynd]

The Baby Friendly Hospital Initiatve covers when a baby medically requires a 
comp.

The UK BFHI site has some very enlightening articles
Denise Hynd
"Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the 
sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by 
anyone, our bodies will be handled."

- Linda Hes
- Original Message - 
From: "Ken WArd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 7:13 PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?


Babies will loose over the 10% but are weeing  well have transitional 
stools
and are settled. Others may not loose as much, but are hungry not weeing
that much nor pooing much. I get annoyed that figures are used so much. 
The
presence of urates can also be considered a sign of insufficient feeds, 
even
though the nappy is "wringing wet". Policy demands comps, whatever bm
available then formula 3/24 either by cup or syringe. Mum is encouraged to
massage and express pc. I have a chat about diet and talk to them about 
the
baby and it's behaviour.
I will tell her if I believe all is well, but there are times when a baby
genuinely needs comping.  Maureen
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Alesa Koziol
Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2004 9:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

Dear Anne
Fully endorse your practice as sound, safe and yet still covering bases 
for
those infants that dont suckle direct.
I would like to continue this discussion to the management of those babes
who lose weight >10% on third day
...please don't inundate me with info on NOT weighing babes at all
whilst in hospital,  unless you have some great evidence I can use to
challenge that practice:)
Looking forward to the continuation of healthy dialogue
Cheers
Alesa

Alesa Koziol
Clinical Midwifery Educator
Melbourne
- Original Message -
From: "Anne Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

Dear All,
Regarding a (healthy, full term) baby feeding in the first 24 hrs. If the
babe has had a feed soon after birth we do not worry for at least 12+ 
hrs.
NEVER EVER take a BSL unless baby is symptomatic.  This has never 
occurred
though.

If babe has not had a feed soon after birth we express mum and give via
cup
or syringe a couple of hours or so after birth.
If babe is hungry and has not attached or whatever after the 12 hrs we
show
mum how to express and give via cup or syringe approximately 3-4 hrly
until
the baby attaches more often if the baby wants to feed more often of
course.
We send our mum's home with this plus we ring them at home or if they 
have
any queries they can call us (with a backup to a LC of course or our
breastfeeding clinic staffed by an LC) lots of skin to skin, babe near 
the
breast all the time so not to miss an 'opportunity' to have a feed and it
seems to work beautifully.

You cruel lot doing a BSL - stop it!!  The WHO recommendations say it is
not
necessary on a well, full term baby unless symptomatic.  Babies do not
become symptomatic if they feed regularly and if necessary by EBM, they
will
always swallow even if they won't suck.  It is suprising how many 'wake
up'
and feed with a few mouthfuls of EBM.
Anne Clarke
Brisbane
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RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[twiggy3]

>> I will tell her if I believe all is well, but there are times when a baby
> genuinely needs comping.  Maureen


Hi Maureen and anyone else who could enlighten me on the above comment about 
there being times when a baby genuinely needs comping,

Could you please be more specific ie, at what times would a baby genuinely 
need comping?

Thanks

Jayne




--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.

RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Ken WArd]

Babies will loose over the 10% but are weeing  well have transitional stools
and are settled. Others may not loose as much, but are hungry not weeing
that much nor pooing much. I get annoyed that figures are used so much. The
presence of urates can also be considered a sign of insufficient feeds, even
though the nappy is "wringing wet". Policy demands comps, whatever bm
available then formula 3/24 either by cup or syringe. Mum is encouraged to
massage and express pc. I have a chat about diet and talk to them about the
baby and it's behaviour.
I will tell her if I believe all is well, but there are times when a baby
genuinely needs comping.  Maureen
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Alesa Koziol
Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 2004 9:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?


Dear Anne
Fully endorse your practice as sound, safe and yet still covering bases for
those infants that dont suckle direct.
I would like to continue this discussion to the management of those babes
who lose weight >10% on third day
...please don't inundate me with info on NOT weighing babes at all
whilst in hospital,  unless you have some great evidence I can use to
challenge that practice:)
Looking forward to the continuation of healthy dialogue
Cheers
Alesa

Alesa Koziol
Clinical Midwifery Educator
Melbourne
- Original Message -
From: "Anne Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?


> Dear All,
>
> Regarding a (healthy, full term) baby feeding in the first 24 hrs. If the
> babe has had a feed soon after birth we do not worry for at least 12+ hrs.
> NEVER EVER take a BSL unless baby is symptomatic.  This has never occurred
> though.
>
> If babe has not had a feed soon after birth we express mum and give via
cup
> or syringe a couple of hours or so after birth.
>
> If babe is hungry and has not attached or whatever after the 12 hrs we
show
> mum how to express and give via cup or syringe approximately 3-4 hrly
until
> the baby attaches more often if the baby wants to feed more often of
course.
>
> We send our mum's home with this plus we ring them at home or if they have
> any queries they can call us (with a backup to a LC of course or our
> breastfeeding clinic staffed by an LC) lots of skin to skin, babe near the
> breast all the time so not to miss an 'opportunity' to have a feed and it
> seems to work beautifully.
>
> You cruel lot doing a BSL - stop it!!  The WHO recommendations say it is
not
> necessary on a well, full term baby unless symptomatic.  Babies do not
> become symptomatic if they feed regularly and if necessary by EBM, they
will
> always swallow even if they won't suck.  It is suprising how many 'wake
up'
> and feed with a few mouthfuls of EBM.
>
> Anne Clarke
> Brisbane
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>

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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Alesa Koziol]

Dear Anne
Fully endorse your practice as sound, safe and yet still covering bases for
those infants that dont suckle direct.
I would like to continue this discussion to the management of those babes
who lose weight >10% on third day
...please don't inundate me with info on NOT weighing babes at all
whilst in hospital,  unless you have some great evidence I can use to
challenge that practice:)
Looking forward to the continuation of healthy dialogue
Cheers
Alesa

Alesa Koziol
Clinical Midwifery Educator
Melbourne
- Original Message -
From: "Anne Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?


> Dear All,
>
> Regarding a (healthy, full term) baby feeding in the first 24 hrs. If the
> babe has had a feed soon after birth we do not worry for at least 12+ hrs.
> NEVER EVER take a BSL unless baby is symptomatic.  This has never occurred
> though.
>
> If babe has not had a feed soon after birth we express mum and give via
cup
> or syringe a couple of hours or so after birth.
>
> If babe is hungry and has not attached or whatever after the 12 hrs we
show
> mum how to express and give via cup or syringe approximately 3-4 hrly
until
> the baby attaches more often if the baby wants to feed more often of
course.
>
> We send our mum's home with this plus we ring them at home or if they have
> any queries they can call us (with a backup to a LC of course or our
> breastfeeding clinic staffed by an LC) lots of skin to skin, babe near the
> breast all the time so not to miss an 'opportunity' to have a feed and it
> seems to work beautifully.
>
> You cruel lot doing a BSL - stop it!!  The WHO recommendations say it is
not
> necessary on a well, full term baby unless symptomatic.  Babies do not
> become symptomatic if they feed regularly and if necessary by EBM, they
will
> always swallow even if they won't suck.  It is suprising how many 'wake
up'
> and feed with a few mouthfuls of EBM.
>
> Anne Clarke
> Brisbane
>
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> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>

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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[JoFromOz]

Sally Westbury wrote:
"When saying it is a baby friendly policy, it pretty much is.  BSLs are 
only done if no EBM is obtained 3 hourly.  It's just that some midwives 
can't bring themselves to  not give a baby anything, and paeds I don't 
think are ever breastfeeding/baby friendly." JofromOz

understood..i know you are a fantastic midwife and advocate. it just is
so far from the gentle birth practice of homebirth that is still shocks
me. It is good to be reminded.
Sally Westbury
Homebirth Midwife
 

And people wonder why I have chosen a homebirth? ;)
Jo
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RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Sally Westbury]

"When saying it is a baby friendly policy, it pretty much is.  BSLs are 
only done if no EBM is obtained 3 hourly.  It's just that some midwives 
can't bring themselves to  not give a baby anything, and paeds I don't 
think are ever breastfeeding/baby friendly." JofromOz

understood..i know you are a fantastic midwife and advocate. it just is
so far from the gentle birth practice of homebirth that is still shocks
me. It is good to be reminded.

Sally Westbury
Homebirth Midwife
 
"It takes courage to remain a true advocate for women, challenging
authority and sacrificing social and professional acceptance. It takes
courage for a woman to choose a caregiver who will truly advocate for
and empower her."-Judy Slome Cohain



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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[JoFromOz]

Mary Murphy wrote:
Jo  wrote: "Often if the baby is mucusy (causing reluctance to feed) they
will  unfortunately likely be given a stomach washout..."  I thought that
the mucous contained glucose and that was why the 'mucousy babies' didn't
feel hungry.  I would be happy to have this clarified if I am wrong.  I
don't know where the information came from, it is just in my head.   MM
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No matter how many times I tell people this when they talk about giving 
a gastric washout, the paeds don't believe me.  I have had paeds 
prescribe a washout then give 1ml of Mylanta!!  I refuse.

When saying it is a baby friendly policy, it pretty much is.  BSLs are 
only done if no EBM is obtained 3 hourly.  It's just that some midwives 
can't bring themselves to  not give a baby anything, and paeds I don't 
think are ever breastfeeding/baby friendly.

Jo
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RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Sally Westbury]

I just have to say it if this is baby friendly then I really am
scared about what is baby unfriendly 

Love to you jo... and your bump

Sally Westbury
Homebirth Midwife
 
"It takes courage to remain a true advocate for women, challenging
authority and sacrificing social and professional acceptance. It takes
courage for a woman to choose a caregiver who will truly advocate for
and empower her."-Judy Slome Cohain

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JoFromOz
Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2004 3:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

Our policy is to attempt first feed within 1 hour of birth. If 
unsuccessful, attempt 3 hours later (max). If not EBM is obtained for 
the baby within 6 hours, then a BSL is done.  If this is fine (2.2 or 
above) then the baby can be left another 3 hours.  A baby left much past

this would probably be refered to the paed (eek!) and would probably end

up in the SCN tube fed, depending on the midwife...  ;) But as long as 
the BSLs are ok 3 hourly, the baby is left according to policy.  Often 
if the baby is mucusy (causing reluctance to feed) they will 
unfortunately likely be given a stomach washout...again depending on the

midwife.

The policy isn't as bad as I've seen at other places... it's pretty baby

friendly compared to others.

Jo (the new Mrs. Watson!)

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[ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Anne Clarke]

Dear All,
Regarding a (healthy, full term) baby feeding in the first 24 hrs. If the 
babe has had a feed soon after birth we do not worry for at least 12+ hrs. 
NEVER EVER take a BSL unless baby is symptomatic.  This has never occurred 
though.

If babe has not had a feed soon after birth we express mum and give via cup 
or syringe a couple of hours or so after birth.

If babe is hungry and has not attached or whatever after the 12 hrs we show 
mum how to express and give via cup or syringe approximately 3-4 hrly until 
the baby attaches more often if the baby wants to feed more often of course.

We send our mum's home with this plus we ring them at home or if they have 
any queries they can call us (with a backup to a LC of course or our 
breastfeeding clinic staffed by an LC) lots of skin to skin, babe near the 
breast all the time so not to miss an 'opportunity' to have a feed and it 
seems to work beautifully.

You cruel lot doing a BSL - stop it!!  The WHO recommendations say it is not 
necessary on a well, full term baby unless symptomatic.  Babies do not 
become symptomatic if they feed regularly and if necessary by EBM, they will 
always swallow even if they won't suck.  It is suprising how many 'wake up' 
and feed with a few mouthfuls of EBM.

Anne Clarke
Brisbane 

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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[JoFromOz]

Our policy is to attempt first feed within 1 hour of birth. If 
unsuccessful, attempt 3 hours later (max). If not EBM is obtained for 
the baby within 6 hours, then a BSL is done.  If this is fine (2.2 or 
above) then the baby can be left another 3 hours.  A baby left much past 
this would probably be refered to the paed (eek!) and would probably end 
up in the SCN tube fed, depending on the midwife...  ;) But as long as 
the BSLs are ok 3 hourly, the baby is left according to policy.  Often 
if the baby is mucusy (causing reluctance to feed) they will 
unfortunately likely be given a stomach washout...again depending on the 
midwife.

The policy isn't as bad as I've seen at other places... it's pretty baby 
friendly compared to others.

Jo (the new Mrs. Watson!)
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[ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[gresch]

Hi Nicole,
I'm not a Midwife, but my 3 year old , born at home, had a feed within an hour 
after birth and his next feed was something like 32 hours later. We were all 
fine about it, but we did discuss that had we been in hospital, it would have 
been "managed". How do you make a baby feed that just wants to sleep? He then 
went on to breastfeed exclusively for 13 months, the little piggy.
Sorry its not a policy, but one example of normal.

good luck
Megan
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Nicole Hmelnitsky
Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2004 9:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 


I hope someone has an answer to my question.



I am a newly graduated Certified Midwife working in a large teaching hospital. 
I need to find out other policies regarding the number of breastfeeds required 
in the first 24 hours of a healthy term newborn. If a baby has not breastfed at 
delivery, some midwives will perform a heel prick test for a blood glucose 
level after 6 hours and some will try and give a comp feed of artificial 
formula. I don’t believe in either. Some literature has said that a newborn 
will feed 3 times in the first 24 hours, and the some WHO literature says a 
newborn should feed 8 times in the first 24 hours. I really need to know if 
anyone has established a policy and guideline regarding this matter.



Thanks, Nicole.


This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au


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[ozmidwifery] Feeds in 24 hrs

[Anne Clarke]

Dear Helen,
 
Interesting comment on the following of hospital policies 
- when I re-read the email the policies seem to be dependent on 'who the Midwife 
was on duty'.  
 
What about changing policy that is invasive, unnecessary 
and dear I say - not based on good evidence - there's that 
cliched statement again.  It's always easy to hide behind policy, good 
and not so good rather than fight to change an outdated and unnecessary 
procedure on these babies and making mothers feel more and more 
inadequate.  
 
If there is a policy that is 'slow to change' why 
aren't we telling the women what is best practice, what studies are out there, 
and so on and then let the mother decide, as I remember being one of our 
directives from our Code of Practice.  In a court of law stating that you 
followed policy is not a defence if it is not based on good evidence and best 
practice.
 
Yes Helen I agree to support colleagues, their right of 
comment and I would hope you would support my right to comment too.
 
Anne Clarke
Brisbane

Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Sadie]

Hi Mary and fellow ozmidders,
Often C/section babies are 'mucousy' and reluctant to feed, however I have 
never seen a low PGL on a 'mucousy' baby.

Cheers,
Sadie 

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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Graham and Helen]

Really good advice Anne but almost ruined by the insulting manner in which 
it was delivered.  You would be aware that many hospital policies are 
hospital management/paediatrician/fear driven and change comes about slowly. 
It is important we stay supportive of each other on this list, give words of 
encouragement and lead by example.

Helen Cahill
- Original Message --
From: "Anne Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

Dear All,
Regarding a (healthy, full term) baby feeding in the first 24 hrs. If the 
babe has had a feed soon after birth we do not worry for at least 12+ hrs. 
NEVER EVER take a BSL unless baby is symptomatic.  This has never occurred 
though.

If babe has not had a feed soon after birth we express mum and give via 
cup or syringe a couple of hours or so after birth.

If babe is hungry and has not attached or whatever after the 12 hrs we 
show mum how to express and give via cup or syringe approximately 3-4 hrly 
until the baby attaches more often if the baby wants to feed more often of 
course.

We send our mum's home with this plus we ring them at home or if they have 
any queries they can call us (with a backup to a LC of course or our 
breastfeeding clinic staffed by an LC) lots of skin to skin, babe near the 
breast all the time so not to miss an 'opportunity' to have a feed and it 
seems to work beautifully.

You cruel lot doing a BSL - stop it!!  The WHO recommendations say it is 
not necessary on a well, full term baby unless symptomatic.  Babies do not 
become symptomatic if they feed regularly and if necessary by EBM, they 
will always swallow even if they won't suck.  It is suprising how many 
'wake up' and feed with a few mouthfuls of EBM.

Anne Clarke
Brisbane
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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Mary Murphy]

Jo  wrote: "Often if the baby is mucusy (causing reluctance to feed) they
will  unfortunately likely be given a stomach washout..."  I thought that
the mucous contained glucose and that was why the 'mucousy babies' didn't
feel hungry.  I would be happy to have this clarified if I am wrong.  I
don't know where the information came from, it is just in my head.   MM

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